UCF Sig Ep suspended

[adpiucf]

Were the guys not doing these kinds of things when I was a student there, or has it just gotten worse?

http://www.local6.com/news/10724862/detail.html

[icicle22]

Were the guys not doing these kinds of things when I was a student there, or has it just gotten worse?

http://www.local6.com/news/10724862/detail.html
I think it's probably getting worse. It's also funny how most of the fraternities are getting in trouble.

[ZTAngel]

Were the guys not doing these kinds of things when I was a student there, or has it just gotten worse?

They were doing those things but they weren't stupid about it so they didn't get caught. By the time my senior year rolled around, the guys weren't afraid of publicly hazing their pledges.

[adpiucf]

At this rate, Greek Row will become Sorority Row by 2010.

[PeppyGPhiB]

It is not fun for the sororities when this happens on campuses (many fraternities getting disciplined). Two of the six fraternities that opened on my campus 10 years ago are no longer there...they were kicked off for hazing and other serious matters. And at least one other fraternity has a history of being placed on probation by the school. One new fraternity has been brought in to replace one of the two that closed, but the greek system still feels very lopsided. The sororities are so well put-together, and the fraternities are chaotic.

[Tom Earp]

What a shame, there seems to be a history at the school!

[adpiucf]

When was Pi Kapp suspended???

(Add to kicked off campus: Pi Kappa Alpha)

Still plenty of fraternities, but aside from LXA, Sigma Chi, Kappa Sig, ATO and possibly DU, the rest have very small numbers. Acacia closed a few years ago; down to one member.

[exlurker]

They were doing those things but they weren't stupid about it so they didn't get caught. By the time my senior year rolled around, the guys weren't afraid of publicly hazing their pledges.

That's really unfortunate. It also may be part of the reason Florida recently enacted its tougher anti-hazing law.

[Ocalagirl]

Sororities at UCF (10)
Kappa Kappa Gamma
Alpha Delta Pi
Kappa Delta
Pi Beta Phi
Alpha Epsilon Phi
Tri Delta
Kappa Alpha Theta
Alpha Xi Delta
Chi Omega
Zeta Tau Alpha


What happened to Delta Gamma? I know they did not participate in Formal Recruitment this year, but are they totally off campus? I thought they were still around trying to re-organize their current chapter and be able to recruit this semester or something like that. I hope they do not completely go off campus since they have been there for so long.

[Unregistered-]

What happened to Delta Gamma? I know they did not participate in Formal Recruitment this year, but are they totally off campus? I thought they were still around trying to re-organize their current chapter and be able to recruit this semester or something like that. I hope they do not completely go off campus since they have been there for so long.

According to this (http://community.livejournal.com/sororitygirl/597982.html), the DG chapter at UCF closed on December 10, 2006.

[adpiucf]

The DG chapter members themselves made the decision to close. The good news is that since they were not closed by their nationals, there would be a more immediate opportunity for recolonization when UCF conducts future sorority expansion. DG is a great sorority, and I'm sure I speak for many UCF alumni and students when I say that I look forward to their return.

Bummer about Pi Kapp. I was a student when they colonized. They were really good guys back then. Hope they come to their senses and can come back.

[TSteven]

Suspended fraternities (could potentially come back soon)
Pi Kappa Phi
Sigma Phi Epsilon

Kicked off campus
Sigma Alpha Epsilon

(Add to kicked off campus: Pi Kappa Alpha)

What is the difference between "Suspended" and "Kicked off"?

According to a press release (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=81887&page=4) posted on Sigma Alpha Epsilon's IHQ web site:

"The chapter’s charter will remain suspended, not revoked, for an indefinite period of time. Depending on what university officials decide, Sigma Alpha Epsilon may choose to return with a new group of students in several years."

[Drolefille]

Perhaps it is the indefinate time period vs a specific one (such as four years or so?)

[PeppyGPhiB]

The DG chapter members themselves made the decision to close. The good news is that since they were not closed by their nationals, there would be a more immediate opportunity for recolonization when UCF conducts future sorority expansion.

Why does it make a difference whether the chapter decided to close or national made the decision? I'm guessing it closed because of numbers?

[TSteven]

Perhaps it is the indefinate time period vs a specific one (such as four years or so?)

Perhaps.

Frankly, "suspended" and "kicked off" are the same thing. As such, why is it necessary to make a distinction in the list above (i.e. two chapters were "suspended", one "kicked off" and add this chapter to "kicked off") if both end results are similar?

[Unregistered-]

Perhaps.

Frankly, "suspended" and "kicked off" are the same thing. As such, why is it necessary to make a distinction in the list above (i.e. two chapters were "suspended", one "kicked off" and add this chapter to "kicked off") if both end results are similar?

I have to disagree.

When I hear "suspended" I think of "they're gone but they're allowed to come back later".

When I hear "kicked off" I think "they're gone and most likely won't come back".

[jon1856]

I have to disagree.

When I hear "suspended" I think of "they're gone but they're allowed to come back later".

When I hear "kicked off" I think "they're gone and most likely won't come back".
OTW;
I would agree with you.
My POV is Suspended is being on hold or pending while kicked off is just that.
As the story itself says:"The Sigma Phi Epsilon fraternity, which is different than the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity that was disbanded in November, is under summary suspension at UCF while allegations of hazing pledges are investigated, Local 6 News reported."

[Ocalagirl]

and from the outside, Sig Ep one of the nicest looking houses I have ever seen. Its sad that all those guys have to move out (I'm assuming) when school just started.

[boz130]

FWIW, chapters can be suspended by acclimation of their own alumni. It happened w/Lambda Chi @ Northwestern.

Back in 1996, they were down to 12 men & had a number of boarders (some of the football players lived there @ the time). Since the University owns the houses, the alumni board wasn't getting enough rent $$$ to pay the bills.

The alums made a decision to suspend operations and came back to campus in 1998. During the downtime, the chapter house was converted into a women's dorm.

When they returned, LCA's expansion team helped them to recruit candidates. The "Founding Fathers-Part II" did a great job of rushing on their own after that--they got to 40 members & surpassed all-men's GPA in just 18 months.

Just last summer, they won LCA's highest chapter honor: the Grand High Alpha award. Quite a far cry from the dark days of 12 guys & the Wildcat offensive line living @ the house.

If the DG alumnae & UCF's Greek Affairs office felt it was in their best interest to go dark, they may have had a good reason...

Interfraternally,
BF

[CasperDU173]

and from the outside, Sig Ep one of the nicest looking houses I have ever seen. Its sad that all those guys have to move out (I'm assuming) when school just started.

I completely disagree with you. What is "sad" is what they did. What is "sad" how they are feeding the negative greek stereotype. Forget their house and what it looked like and how they have to move out, they broke the rules and hazed. They will be lucky if moving out is the worst that will happen to them.

[jon1856]

I completely disagree with you. What is "sad" is what they did. What is "sad" how they are feeding the negative greek stereotype. Forget their house and what it looked like and how they have to move out, they broke the rules and hazed. They will be luck if moving out is the worst that will happen to them.
Agree.

[Drolefille]

I completely disagree with you. What is "sad" is what they did. What is "sad" how they are feeding the negative greek stereotype. Forget their house and what it looked like and how they have to move out, they broke the rules and hazed. They will be lucky if moving out is the worst that will happen to them.
I'm going to add one more big ME TOO to that

[Ocalagirl]

Ok to clarify yes I do think it is sad if Sig Ep hazed their pledges. I don't always believe what comes especially since in the last three or months SAE and ATO got in trouble for hazing. SAE got kicked off because of repeated complaints which I thought they should because it was repeatedly complained of over the years. ATO got in some trouble (though I don't think a lot..not sure), but didn't get kicked off campus. It just seems with another fraternity moving off/kicked off campus just seems a little sketchy to me. I would defintiely feel bad if they did haze their pledges, but did everyone do it? I know if a little group of people haze then the whole group gets punished and whether or not thats right thats how it is (from everything I've seen from the outside looking in). I feel bad for the possibility that some of the guys in there might have not known what was going on. From what I read at the beginning someone cried hazing and then the chapter is off campus. I'm not saying that they didn't do it, but with everything else that has happened it just seems a little odd thats all. I did not mean to sound so peachy (it was late at night though and I was probably tired), but I wasn't trying to make huge statements on this thread when they already hadn't been made. I didn't mean to make people so upset, but probably this statement will too. Oh well....

[fifi225]

Were the guys not doing these kinds of things when I was a student there, or has it just gotten worse?




That's a good question.

Then again...from reading that article one MIGHT get the impression that that is a kid who got kicked out during pledging and is upset over it and is now trying to paint the fraternity in a negative light. Not saying that's the case, just that that is how it could be interpreted.

Regardless, this hazing BS needs to stop at UCF (and everywhere for that matter)

[macallan25]

Yeah, forget pledging.....lets just initiate everyone that walks through the door.

[fifi225]

Yeah, forget pledging.....lets just initiate everyone that walks through the door.

Well obviously, making sure that all of the potential members would jump into a garbage can full of crisco, cottage cheese, syrup and sardines is a fine way to make sure that organizations initiate only the finest!

[33girl]

Why does it make a difference whether the chapter decided to close or national made the decision? I'm guessing it closed because of numbers?

Well, I know that our Sigma Chi chapter voted to close (they had $$$ issues) because apparently, they can come back sooner than if the national council would have voted to close it. This I guess is the same sort of thing.

Although, I would like to see if this is really true in practice or if it's just something the HQ tells them to get the matter over and done with. Sorry to sound like a bitch, but like I said, when I see this actually happening I'll believe it.

[UCFKappaSig]

Were the guys not doing these kinds of things when I was a student there, or has it just gotten worse?

http://www.local6.com/news/10724862/detail.html


I think it has always gone on, but now the school has every greek orginization under a microscope, and are now looking for any little thing to get them in trouble

[Tom Earp]

If the chapter is warned by either The School or Their National and do not follow the rules of both, whose fault is it?:rolleyes:

[XiLove_Epsilon]

I think that it is completely sad that fraternities are getting kicked off campuses nation wide. In fact, I think it's pathetic. I realize that there are some things that go too far, but some things are just tradition. We just had a chapter get in trouble with their nationals for having their pledges go and retrieve composites from each fraternity. They were split into groups and this has been tradition for as far back as anyone can remember...things like this is just fun, tradition, and should be left alone by nationals and the media alike. I realize that getting your pledges unbelievably drunk is not the best idea, but sometimes (if no one is getting truely hurt), you've just got to leave well enough alone. Greeks are an exclusive part of universities for a reason.

[strubbe]

I think that it is completely sad that fraternities are getting kicked off campuses nation wide. In fact, I think it's pathetic. I realize that there are some things that go too far, but some things are just tradition. We just had a chapter get in trouble with their nationals for having their pledges go and retrieve composites from each fraternity. They were split into groups and this has been tradition for as far back as anyone can remember...things like this is just fun, tradition, and should be left alone by nationals and the media alike. I realize that getting your pledges unbelievably drunk is not the best idea, but sometimes (if no one is getting truely hurt), you've just got to leave well enough alone. Greeks are an exclusive part of universities for a reason.

Have you bothered to read some of the crap that has been going on? Organizations get kicked off for a reason. Hazing is illegal, and for good reason. The HQ of these organizations are finally coming to their senses and are trying to put a stop to it, not only to save face, but to potentially save the lives of the young men/women looking to join their organizations. I agree that some acts are harmless in nature, but who's to say that breaking into another organization's house to take composites won't lead into something more serious?

Just my opinion.

[adpiucf]

We just had a chapter get in trouble with their nationals for having their pledges go and retrieve composites from each fraternity. They were split into groups and this has been tradition for as far back as anyone can remember...things like this is just fun, tradition, and should be left alone by nationals and the media alike. I realize that getting your pledges unbelievably drunk is not the best idea, but sometimes (if no one is getting truely hurt), you've just got to leave well enough alone. Greeks are an exclusive part of universities for a reason.

First of all, the pledges were committing theft and vandalism by taking the composites. That is a crime. If organizations are now beginning to recognize that is unacceptable for the supposed elite of the university to commit breaking and entering, then I applaud their efforts to control crime. Because even though it is a tradition, that doesn't make it right or acceptable. Genital mutilation of young women is a long-held tradition in some parts of Africa that is sanctioned by those parts of Africa and respected village elders; does this mean it is right? I realize that theft and mutilation are not the same, but you invoked the name of "tradition."

"If no one is truly getting hurt"-- people are actually getting hurt and we must draw the line somewhere. If Greeks truly embody the best of campus scholarship, leadership and potential, then we must begin to hold ourselves to a higher standard and conduct ourselves as role models, not anarchists who don't hold with the laws and policies of our governing organizations, universities and local/state/federal laws.

Hazing hurts. People get hurt. People die. People get scarred for life, emotionally, physically, even financially. Hazing effects the hazers, the hazed, and their familes. It may start off innocently, but things have a tendency to go wrong very quickly. Hazing interrupts lives, and can go on to have major effects-- do you want to be sued and have your future wages garnished because one of your new members tripped and crippled herself in your harmless blindfolding game and chose to retaliate? It happens and this is one way hazing can affect you, even if you were not directly involved. We may live in a PC, lawsuit happy society, but that can't really be changed. So rather complain about being PC, why not make the best of it and create new traditions that are legal, safe and satisfy everyone's needs?

Alcohol isn't the only killer-- a freshman fraternity pledge died from an overdose of WATER not too long ago. Yes, that's right. He died from water intoxication. I'm sure it sounded like a fun idea and safe to the brothers who thought of it. They're serving jail sentences now and the young man's family and friends will never be the same. There was serious talk of closing the school's Greek System. Not such a great idea after all. Think about that the next time you dress your pledges up in fairy wings, have them drink mystery concoctions, send them on "quests," or require anything of them that hasn't been approved in your new member education plans. You can still have fun, establish traditions and bonds and form memories, but there is a right and responsible way to do it. Act like adults and the community, media and your peers will treat you like adults, instead of coming in and closing you down because you decided to act like children... or worse yet, like common criminals.

Sorry you don't feel the same way. Your nationals has embraced this policy, but if you don't agree with your own sorority policies, you should really reconsider your oath and pledge to your organization.

[Unregistered-]

Sorry you don't feel the same way. Your nationals has embraced this policy, but if you don't agree with your own sorority policies, you should really reconsider your oath and pledge to your organization.

Best post of the day.

[Tom Earp]

The problem is also, not just Fraternitys, but also Sororitys and that is the problem.

It is a greek wide problem.:o

We as Greeks are our own worst enemies and wonder why!:rolleyes:

People and schools are getting tired of seeing this type of thing (hazing) in the media and wonder WHY!

There used to be no rules or regulations about hazing. But it seems to becomiong more pronounced and reported.

That is why Nationals, Schools. and the public are more concerned.

"Dad/Mom to Son/Daughter, I do not want you joining a group like these Greeks!" " You could die, you will not make your grades"!

[XiLove_Epsilon]

Did you ever stop to think that the fraternities knew that the girls were going to come take their composites and that they pretty much just gave the girls a hard time and then handed them over? Or that these girls have the option to not do it? I'm not saying that fraternities or sororities should be allowed to shove anything down anyone's throat, but there is always the choice of the individual, and if these individuals can not find it in themselves to say no, then they are not greek material anyway. We need strong leaders, not followers, and not all tradition is bad. We've got schools like the one in Florida that have problems with it, but we've also got schools that don't. Should their traditions be sacraficed because of the mistake made by others? No. The problem we're having is that there is too much involvement by the media. Greek life is exclusive for a reason...and the problems we have should stay within the family. Too many chapters suffer because of the mistake of one, and that is completely unfair to everyone. I'm sure that every chapter has some tradition that could be considered hazing, that the chapter that has it, does not think about it as hazing. I'm all about NOT hazing our pledges, but when a scavenger hunt is considered hazing haven't we gone too far? What about the rituals? What if the new memebers have to dress up in certain "costumes" or wear masks or whatever, or the initiated members can't shower, or shave, or whatever for a certain ritual...is that too hazing, or is it just ritual? Pretty soon we're going to have nothing left to our chapters because someone, somewhere will consider it all hazing and we will be left with nothing but a name, some letters and memories. The point I'm trying to make, is that we need to really take a look at what we all stand for...we're a family, we're love, we're greek...these hazing incidents should NOT happen, but somewhere we've got to take care of our own. Why aren't we helping the chapters that are in trouble, giving them alternate ways to take care of their pledges, actually put people in there to HELP them instead of kicking them off campuses, and putting them on probation with no one to give them any resources? I just believe that we are going about this in all the wrong ways...i'm not saying ignore hazing, or that it's right, i'm saying that we need to fix it instead of just hacking every chapter we possibly can, because all we are doing that way is giving those who are against greeks, for whatever reason they hate us, some more bullets. What we need to do is have a facilitator come in, clean up the chapter, and see who is truly detrimental to that chapter on that campus. There has to be at least a few good apples in every bunch that truely want to be there, that didn't take part in all of this, and that have a true heart for the chapter they are in. Ridding the campus of every one of them takes away any opportunity they have to help themselves with a better name or a new reputation. If you are not willing to take a true look at what we could do to HELP instead of KILL a chapter, then I suggest that YOU take a look at what you pledged and your oath and consider why you exist in the greek community.

[Unregistered-]

When I was a sophomore in HS, I took Intro to Word Processing in the Fall. In the Spring, I took Intro to Computers (PC Crap). That was over ten years ago.

Both semesters I learned that Enter/Return was your friend.

HOLY HELL MOSES TEN COMMANDMENTS!!!

[adpiucf]

If you are not willing to take a true look at what we could do to HELP instead of KILL a chapter, then I suggest that YOU take a look at what you pledged and your oath and consider why you exist in the greek community.

You haven't been a member of your sorority long enough to observe this, but actually every one of the national organizations have ongoing meetings with individual chapters (IE: Traveling consultants, district workshops, advisers, etc.) to maintain good chapter health, and provide support to chapters (international directors, workshops, probationary terms to meet and paperwork to file) who have fallen off track in order to help lift them back up. Sometimes, despite everyone's best efforts, the chapter has been permanently derailed and cannot be helped. It is best for all those concerned, from the collegiate members of that chapter the parent organization and the university, for it to close. These ongoing touches also help ensure that members are safe, which means sometimes modifying traditions. A chapter is never arbitrarily closed. It is the result of when consistent activity and many, many opportunities and hands to help it back up have failed.

By all means, chapter business should remain chapter business. But one person's actions can and have brought down chapters before and will continue to do so. The consequences of your actions, good or bad, are felt by every member of your organization. This is the byproduct of becoming part of the organization and wearing the letters of which we are so very proud. One bad action can bring down everyone, which is why there are measures in place to protect these organizations from members who would otherwise seek to cling to "tradition." And as has been stated, if we are to survive as a Greek community we need to keep up with the times. Something that was tradition 10, 20 even 30 or as early as 5 years ago may now be an illegal act TODAY. And we must focus on today.

I know of no ritual which prevents members from keeping themselves clean... I wonder if perhaps you have been misled. The bottom line is that many of our organizations have existed for well over 100 years. We remain alive because we keep current with what is happening in the world. We are run by a dedicated and extensive team of alumni who in their real lives are working professionals and committed volunteers-- lawyers, doctors, teachers, accountants, consultants, you name it. They have seen the big picture and the big picture is that we will give the collegiate chapters the resources they need to succeed. But when the chapter continually snubs its nose at that help and acts like a spoiled child who disregards the rules, that chapter is a liability to the health of the rest of the chapters and it will not last very long. I am sure that if a chapter of your sorority on another campus acted in a manner that would threaten to close ALL chapters of your sorority, you would see it otherwise. This is a reality.

It isn't the media's fault that Greeks have a negative reputation. It is the insular ideas that an illegal act is just a harmless prank.

I encourage you to get involved with your sorority's leadership to see the big picture. Right now, you are looking through the perspective of a new member. There is a lot of good you can accomplish.

[Drolefille]

^ Word.

[XiLove_Epsilon]

Your reply (adpiucf) I actually appreciate...I'm not a new member, I'm actually Ritual Chair and Song Leader of my chapter...we just don't have this stuff around here and what we do have isn't anything to ever be alarmed about. To all of you, it may seem like we're disregaurding nationals on our campus, but when when you are as small of a campus as we are we just don't have these problems in such a high amount, therefore it is extrememly difficult for me to see the benefit of destroying chapters. I know that you said that some of their nationals comes in and tries to help, but that rarely happens here. You either make it or you don't. There is a large difference in small universities and large ones...I've been to both, I've seen it. I think we have it better here. I just wish more people could appreciate instead of demeaning other chapters. It is not our job to bad mouth them all. It seems ridiculous that we would call ourselves greek...family...and do this to each other.

[adpiucf]

I think what you are taking offense to then, is our discussion of these events online? I can appreciate your concern. Take it with a grain of salt-- by discussing these events with other Greeks from all across North America, we can better alert one another to know what is happening with our fellow brothers and sisters. And we can take measures to not allow the same things to occur in our own communities, as can be the case when traditions outlive their usefulness and safety. We aren't exposing any chapter secrets or incidents that are not already a matter of public record.

I applaud your efforts to maintain discretion, and that is certainly something that you should do if there is a chapter incident. In this case, our discussion has come from public attention. It is a matter of public record if an organization has been suspended, and the circumstances surrounding it. All nationals receive national publications from their HQ, as well as IFC/NPC dealing with new laws, proposed legislation and legal outcomes regarding hazing, housing, individual health and wellness, leadership development and more. Exec board usually receives these and is more in the loop on the big picture outside of the university. This is in addition to the general media at large.

I'm also sure that each of your nationals on campus has a traveling consultant pop in once a year as standard practice. They assess the chapter, interview the officers and members, observe and make recommendations. Sometimes they see what they are allowed to see; other times they can really make a difference. That is why it is so important to have alumni/ae advisers and to attend trainings in your district/region with other chapters and alumnae. These opportunties exist for all nationals.

I think it is great you have taken on a few roles within your chapter and that you are passionate about your chapter. Ritual and Song Chairs can do a lot to boost chapter morale and a sense of history and responsibility. I definitely encourage you to seek out an executive board position when the time comes. You will learn so much in a year from the experience and give so much back, as well.

[XiLove_Epsilon]

I really do understand that these are already in the media and that these issues are useful to other chapters, but it just seems like a lot of this is just over exposed...discussing what happens in these chapters isn't really our business, and this doesn't even seem like discussion. It's just trash talk from a lot of people who want to send out an opinion just to say something. I mean, if we have to actually alert other chapters that we could get in trouble for forcing a group of students to drink large amounts of alcohol then we're just kinda dumb, aren't we? Aren't these things that we already know? Isn't this why we already go to alcohol training? We're not discussing things here, or alerting anyone...we're just talking trash about other chapters who have had problems. That just destroys any sense of loyaty we have. I mean, I realy do think that there are somethings that are traditions that should just leave well enough alone because without traditions and rituals you die...not every chapter takes it to the extreme and we need to realize that. I just can't stand so many people badmouthing their brothers and sisters...especially one's the don't know. And really, hazing isn't even as bad as what people make it out to be. There are extreme cases and they happen, but if people were to take a look at the number of greek chapters across the world and compare it to the number of severe hazing incidents it really wouldn't be that high from what I've seen. I just think that people take a lot of this too far...and it gives us more death and grief then if we would have just supported our brothers and sisters. That is what we are here for is family...and wouldn't you stand behind family no matter what? I would. I understand your position, but please try to understand mine.

[Drolefille]

If they KNEW that, there wouldn't be deaths due to forcing people to drink large amounts of alcohol now would we?

There is ZERO excuse for pledges dying. NONE. You don't get a pass on getting talked about just because you're in a GLO (or my GLO).

No one here thinks that every Greek is bad. But WTH are we supposed to do? Pat XYZ on the back when a pledge dies and say "eh, you meant well" ????

[Tom Earp]

No Stuff. Where have you been?

It is wrong, it is wrong and will be wrong and stupid on their parts!:mad:

If they as new possible members are good enough to be brought to the GLO why debase them?

Teach them about your GLO and lead them, not s**T on them!:mad:

[jon1856]

You haven't been a member of your sorority long enough to observe this, but actually every one of the national organizations have ongoing meetings with individual chapters (IE: Traveling consultants, district workshops, advisers, etc.) to maintain good chapter health, and provide support to chapters (international directors, workshops, probationary terms to meet and paperwork to file) who have fallen off track in order to help lift them back up. Sometimes, despite everyone's best efforts, the chapter has been permanently derailed and cannot be helped. It is best for all those concerned, from the collegiate members of that chapter the parent organization and the university, for it to close. These ongoing touches also help ensure that members are safe, which means sometimes modifying traditions. A chapter is never arbitrarily closed. It is the result of when consistent activity and many, many opportunities and hands to help it back up have failed.

By all means, chapter business should remain chapter business. But one person's actions can and have brought down chapters before and will continue to do so. The consequences of your actions, good or bad, are felt by every member of your organization. This is the byproduct of becoming part of the organization and wearing the letters of which we are so very proud. One bad action can bring down everyone, which is why there are measures in place to protect these organizations from members who would otherwise seek to cling to "tradition." And as has been stated, if we are to survive as a Greek community we need to keep up with the times. Something that was tradition 10, 20 even 30 or as early as 5 years ago may now be an illegal act TODAY. And we must focus on today.

I know of no ritual which prevents members from keeping themselves clean... I wonder if perhaps you have been misled. The bottom line is that many of our organizations have existed for well over 100 years. We remain alive because we keep current with what is happening in the world. We are run by a dedicated and extensive team of alumni who in their real lives are working professionals and committed volunteers-- lawyers, doctors, teachers, accountants, consultants, you name it. They have seen the big picture and the big picture is that we will give the collegiate chapters the resources they need to succeed. But when the chapter continually snubs its nose at that help and acts like a spoiled child who disregards the rules, that chapter is a liability to the health of the rest of the chapters and it will not last very long. I am sure that if a chapter of your sorority on another campus acted in a manner that would threaten to close ALL chapters of your sorority, you would see it otherwise. This is a reality.

It isn't the media's fault that Greeks have a negative reputation. It is the insular ideas that an illegal act is just a harmless prank.

I encourage you to get involved with your sorority's leadership to see the big picture. Right now, you are looking through the perspective of a new member. There is a lot of good you can accomplish.
Very good posting.

[alphagamgirlie]

Something dealing with Greek Row... the new movie Amanda Bynes movie Sydney White is going to be filming some scenes at UCF/Rollins/Winter Park/Downtown Orlando, among them is at the old UCF Pike house...They sort of made it look nice like a room is all pinkish stuff now (of course I think we all know how Pike's house is unlivable unless a LOT of $$$$$$ is put in to fix it).
Can't tell ya'll anything else coz it's pretty much under wraps, so check out the movie when comes out in 2008 =)

[fifi225]

I was on campus last night and saw both houses all lit up with tons of people! It was kinda strange. My little told me about the movie. Sounds interesting.

[TPASIGEP]

I just read in The Journal (our National magazine) that a sorority is moving into our UCF chapter house. Anyone know who?

[TrueBlueKappa]

According to the last email I received, UCF is exercising their rights to purchase both the Sig Ep and SAE houses, so no one will be moving in any time soon.

[FSUZeta]

what a shame. i was hoping one of the unhoused sororities would get a chance to have a house.

[TPASIGEP]

I'm not sure if it's just our National's 'spin', but the article mentioned that they were able to maintain the house for our 'eventual return to campus' and that it was going to be leased to a sorority.

I just got my copy this week. Maybe things have changed.

[Faith4Keep]

Well, I've been talking a lot to the UCF Vice-Presidents (especially the one dealing with legal matters), and although it's not being said officially, they are going to try to turn Greek Row into Sorority Row of sorts. There are 3 empty houses and 4 sororities without houses (Kappa Alpha Theta, Chi Omega, Kappa Kappa Gamma, and Alpha Epsilon Phi). There are also 2 fraternities (Kappa Sigma and Alpha Tau Omega) as well as 1 suspended fraternity (Sigma Chi) that live on the street, so I'm not totally sure how or why they would oust them to make it "Sorority Row". I think that UCF feels more comfortable leasing out the houses to sororities than fraternities, as sororities haven't caused the same sort of havoc as the frats have on our campus.

I *reallllllllllly* hope it's us though!! It is very difficult being an off-campus sorority, since a majority of sororities are on on-campus. I'm sure some of the peple on this board understand!

Apparently there was a meeting on Wednesday about the houses for recruitment (since SAE was kicked off and that's where we typically do recruitment, we are kinda SOL since the other 3 unhoused sororities usually do recruitment in fraternity houses that are still active) so that might shed some light on the whole leasing issue. I'll contact my recruitment chair and see what happened.

[SWTXBelle]

I have a question for you fraternity alumni - how involved are advisors with the chapters? It always seemed to me that one reason fraternities got into more trouble was that they had few advisors, and less supervision.
I was a witness to the debacle at Texas State when Sigma Chi was kicked out - and I mean kicked out. The University VP who had originally sponsored the local swore they would never be back. I know that some stupid stuff happened because there wasn't an alum to tell them "no". Is that common? How many advisors does a chapter usually have? Do they just attend meetings and rush, or are they more "hands on"?

[Tom Earp]

I have a question for you fraternity alumni - how involved are advisors with the chapters? It always seemed to me that one reason fraternities got into more trouble was that they had few advisors, and less supervision.
I was a witness to the debacle at Texas State when Sigma Chi was kicked out - and I mean kicked out. The University VP who had originally sponsored the local swore they would never be back. I know that some stupid stuff happened because there wasn't an alum to tell them "no". Is that common? How many advisors does a chapter usually have? Do they just attend meetings and rush, or are they more "hands on"?



Great point and usualy Chapters have one designated Adviser. LXA Advisers are requried to get training and is paid for by the IHQ if any travel is needed.

If a Chapter does not ahve one, they need one to help supervise them.

When things get out of hand, they need a figure to help 'Advise" them when the screw up! Most do not enough sense to pour water out of a boot!:mad:

[FSUZeta]

faith,

please keep us updated. i have long thought that ucf should have solved whatever environmental problem(gopher tortoise?) that was prohibiting the unhoused greeks building on the land set aside for their housing. hopefully leasing the empty fraternity houses will work out.

[Faith4Keep]

i have long thought that ucf should have solved whatever environmental problem(gopher tortoise?)

Ahh yes, the gopher tortoises! At a recent retreat I went to Bill Merck, VP who (I can't remember the exact title but) takes care of all the buildings on our campus and future endeavors, told us that all the gopher-tortoises had been moved to the north side of campus. They have some sort of disease (I really can't remember, asthma, bronchitis, something) and we simply can't move them. That is the area that is near Lake Claire (across the street from the current Greek area).

The new Greek area would hopefully be across from Academic Village. It stinks that the two Greek areas would not be nearby but hey, at least they will be there!! But with all the drama on our campus currently, the administration is in NO WAY excited to build another Greek housing community. I mean, not a chance (at least for a few years!!). All we can hope for now is that some of the unhoused chapters on our campus, whether they are fraternities or sororities, will get a chance at the houses that sit empty on greek row.

I will keep you updated!

[adpiucf]

I speak for so many when I say...

I hate those freaking turtles.

[ZTAngel]

Sigma Chi is suspended too? So, UCF has lost SAE, Pike, Sig Ep and Pi Kapp in the last 2 years and now Sigma Chi is suspended. If the fraternities keep this up, all the sororities will be housed because there won't be any fraternities left!

Has hazing gotten worse over the years at UCF or are the campus police just cracking down on it more?

I was in Orlando a couple of weeks ago and my friends and me drove down Greek Row. It was sad to see the Sig Ep, Pike and SAE house all boarded up and vacant. Although, not to sound too mean :) , the Pike house could use a good fire. I don't know if they'll ever get it up to code after what those guys did to it.

ETA:
I always thought the whole turtle thing was just a rumor.

[TrueBlueKappa]

Sigma Chi is suspended too? So, UCF has lost SAE, Pike, Sig Ep and Pi Kapp in the last 2 years and now Sigma Chi is suspended. If the fraternities keep this up, all the sororities will be housed because there won't be any fraternities left!

According to the 4/18/07 announcements from the Greek Life Office, Sigma Chi was on probation until the end of Spring semester. (http://greeklife.sdes.ucf.edu/F&SL%20Announcements.htm)


Has hazing gotten worse over the years at UCF or are the campus police just cracking down on it more?

I’m not there anymore, but I am assuming that after all the press coverage of the SAE incident, there must have been a major crackdown.


I was in Orlando a couple of weeks ago and my friends and me drove down Greek Row. It was sad to see the Sig Ep, Pike and SAE house all boarded up and vacant. Although, not sound too mean :) , the Pike house could use a good fire. I don't know if they'll ever get it up to code after what those guys did to it.

Last month, I was in Orlando as well, so I drove down Greek Row. I was SHOCKED. I’ve only been gone for 2 years. It was so sad to see the empty houses. I noticed that the Pike house still had random paint splotches on it from that Amanda Bynes movie they filmed there (how they could used that house as a movie set, I’ll never know!)

And adpiucf, I completely agree with your gopher tortoise sentiments!I hate those freaking things!

[LaneSig]

Well, I've been talking a lot to the UCF Vice-Presidents (especially the one dealing with legal matters), and although it's not being said officially, they are going to try to turn Greek Row into Sorority Row of sorts. There are 3 empty houses and 4 sororities without houses (Kappa Alpha Theta, Chi Omega, Kappa Kappa Gamma, and Alpha Epsilon Phi). There are also 2 fraternities (Kappa Sigma and Alpha Tau Omega) as well as 1 suspended fraternity (Sigma Chi) that live on the street, so I'm not totally sure how or why they would oust them to make it "Sorority Row". I think that UCF feels more comfortable leasing out the houses to sororities than fraternities, as sororities haven't caused the same sort of havoc as the frats have on our campus.

I *reallllllllllly* hope it's us though!! It is very difficult being an off-campus sorority, since a majority of sororities are on on-campus. I'm sure some of the peple on this board understand!

Apparently there was a meeting on Wednesday about the houses for recruitment (since SAE was kicked off and that's where we typically do recruitment, we are kinda SOL since the other 3 unhoused sororities usually do recruitment in fraternity houses that are still active) so that might shed some light on the whole leasing issue. I'll contact my recruitment chair and see what happened.


Hate to get into semantics: Suspended and probation are two different issues. Sigma Chi was on probation for the semester, not under suspension.

[TSteven]

Hate to get into semantics: Suspended and probation are two different issues. Sigma Chi was on probation for the semester, not under suspension.

Thank you Brother. I was going to say the same thing.

[SWTXBelle]

So is Sigma Chi now eligible to be off probation? I see in the earlier post that it was for the spring semester.

[TSteven]

So is Sigma Chi now eligible to be off probation? I see in the earlier post that it was for the spring semester.

That is my understating.

[SWTXBelle]

Fingers crossed!

[alphagamgirlie]

I noticed that the Pike house still had random paint splotches on it from that Amanda Bynes movie they filmed there (how they could used that house as a movie set, I’ll never know!)

The exterior of the Pike house wasn't really used for Amanda's movie. Only the interior (which was fixed up a lil bit) was filmed...they used the exterior of a house kinda near where Briercliff & Osceola meet in Delaney Park (subdivision downtown south of 408) instead for the exterior shots of the sorority house.

[TrueBlueKappa]

The exterior of the Pike house wasn't really used for Amanda's movie. Only the interior (which was fixed up a lil bit) was filmed...they used the exterior of a house kinda near where Briercliff & Osceola meet in Delaney Park (subdivision downtown south of 408) instead for the exterior shots of the sorority house.


Maybe it was peeling paint I saw? For all I know it could have been chunks of the house crumbling. There's no telling with that house!

[adpiucf]

Pi Kappa Phi is suspended until 2011 (I just read the online Central Florida Future). All of the current collegians were given alumni status. (Pi Kapp was not a housed fraternity on Greek Row at UCF).

I am so bummed. I was at their installation banquet-- they had such a strong colonization and were such a great group of guys when I was a student.

[TrueBlueKappa]

Wow... that is so sad. All the Pi Kapps I knew were great guys. Devastating.

How many fraternities are we going to lose? It seems like every time I turn around, another house has been suspended or had their charter pulled.

[TSteven]

Pi Kappa Phi is suspended until 2011 (I just read the online Central Florida Future). All of the current collegians were given alumni status. (Pi Kapp was not a housed fraternity on Greek Row at UCF).

I am so bummed. I was at their installation banquet-- they had such a strong colonization and were such a great group of guys when I was a student.

Wow... that is so sad. All the Pi Kapps I knew were great guys. Devastating.

How many fraternities are we going to lose? It seems like every time I turn around, another house has been suspended or had their charter pulled.

Was the suspension extended? According to the F&SL, 4/18/2007 (http://greeklife.sdes.ucf.edu/PDF%20Files/FSL_Announcements/F_SL_Announcements_4-18-07.pdf) Pi Kappa Phi was suspended until May 15, 2007.

And not just CFU fraternities have been suspended or on probation. Zeta Tau Alpha is on Restrictive Probation until the end of fall of 2007.

[adpiucf]

The Future (the school newspaper) reported the Pi Kapp suspension was thru 2011 and all of the members were given alumni status.

UCF sorority alumnae, are you thinking what I'm thinking? (I'm thinking... who's left to do homecoming?)

[ZTAngel]

UCF sorority alumnae, are you thinking what I'm thinking? (I'm thinking... who's left to do homecoming?)

KSig, LXA and ATO are still large chapters.

But I've also heard that a lot of the fraternities that were considered small chapters when we were in school are now large chapters. Phi Delt, Beta, DU, Theta Chi and a few others have grown a lot.

[UCFStefanie]

A lot of the fraternities have grown. I think Greek Life still has a way of classifying which are large and which are small for Greek Week and Homecoming purposes but they have grown quiet a bit!

[TSteven]

The Future (the school newspaper) reported the Pi Kapp suspension was thru 2011 and all of the members were given alumni status.

UCF sorority alumnae, are you thinking what I'm thinking? (I'm thinking... who's left to do homecoming?)

Was the article in The Future after the FS&L report? Not saying that the article isn't correct, but it seems odd that Central Florida's Office of Fraternity and Sorority Life isn't up to date. And for what it is worth, they still have Pi Kappa Phi listed under IFC chapters. Granted, when you click on the chapter link it says PIKAPPUCF.COM WILL BE BACK SOON! And if you click on the star, it takes you the national website.


Question for Central Florida NPC folk. (Or anyone else, for that matter, who might know.) During recruitment, does Panhellenic (say in the recruitment guide) note which chapters are on probation and for how long? (type and reason too?) The reason I ask is that usually, most IFCs require a chapter on probation (usually some sort of social probation) to do so - i.e. make it known to potential pledges. And more often than not, it is published in the rush guide too.

[TrueBlueKappa]

The article (http://media.www.centralfloridafuture.com/media/storage/paper174/news/2007/06/04/News/Pi.Kappa.Phi.Suspended.Until.11-2911186.shtml) is in the most recent issue of the paper.

[adpiucf]

Was the article in The Future after the FS&L report? Not saying that the article isn't correct, but it seems odd that Central Florida's Office of Fraternity and Sorority Life isn't up to date. And for what it is worth, they still have Pi Kappa Phi listed under IFC chapters. Granted, when you click on the chapter link it says PIKAPPUCF.COM WILL BE BACK SOON! And if you click on the star, it takes you the national website.


Question for Central Florida NPC folk. (Or anyone else, for that matter, who might know.) During recruitment, does Panhellenic (say in the recruitment guide) note which chapters are on probation and for how long? (type and reason too?) The reason I ask is that usually, most IFCs require a chapter on probation (usually some sort of social probation) to do so - i.e. make it known to potential pledges. And more often than not, it is published in the rush guide too.

The article came out yesterday.

I think the web sites for the orgs and the Greek Life web sites should be taken with a grain of salt. Each year, those groups get all new webmasters, officers, etc, and updates in the summertime are rare, except for the dates for recruitment, perhaps.

None of the UCF sororities in the last 10 years has been on any kind of probation that would affect them in the fall from having a successful recruitment. This isn't to say the chapters haven't had internal bumps in the road or probationary terms to meet, but they have not been handed down in such a way that would impact their ability to recruit and retain quality members. I've never heard of a UCF sorority having to disclose anything of the sort to nonmembers or PNMs, for that matter. The matters are considered internal and handled as such. I know of chapters that have had social probations and such-- this is usually handled in the spring time. If any additional terms fall over into the fall term, they usually are in the form of having to hold workshops. It makes no sense to punish the new members for actions that came before their time.

[TSteven]

The article came out yesterday.

I think the web sites for the orgs and the Greek Life web sites should be taken with a grain of salt. Each year, those groups get all new webmasters, officers, etc, and updates in the summertime are rare, except for the dates for recruitment, perhaps.

None of the UCF sororities in the last 10 years has been on any kind of probation that would affect them in the fall from having a successful recruitment. This isn't to say the chapters haven't had internal bumps in the road or probationary terms to meet, but they have not been handed down in such a way that would impact their ability to recruit and retain quality members. I've never heard of a UCF sorority having to disclose anything of the sort to nonmembers or PNMs, for that matter. The matters are considered internal and handled as such. I know of chapters that have had social probations and such-- this is usually handled in the spring time. If any additional terms fall over into the fall term, they usually are in the form of having to hold workshops. It makes no sense to punish the new members for actions that came before their time.

Makes sense now. "The Office of Student Conduct suspended Pi Kappa Phi fraternity until 2011 after the group held a social function while already on a previous suspension."

I agree about web sites being taken with a grain of salt. I've just been impressed with how UCF makes this information public and lists it on their website. And for the most part, being rather current as well.

It makes no sense to punish the new members for actions that came before their time.

And I guess this is my point. Shouldn't PNMs know if a chapter is on probation? It just seems like it would be fair to all the PNMs to know what to expect socially their first semester. Especially since the probation is until the end of fall 2007.

"Restrictive Probation: The following organization is not permitted to host events involving alcohol. Any house parties, mixers, socials, events or recruitment activities must be alcohol-free (dry)."

[adpiucf]

I don't know anything about the situation of the sorority in question, but I know several alumnae members of the chapter, all of whom I greatly respect. I have no doubt the sorority will handle any internal issues with great tact and conduct recruitment with respect for its sisterhood and PNMs.

And no, I don't think PNMs need to know if a chapter is on probation if that probation does not affect them adversely... What I mean by this is that plenty of chapters go on probationary periods at any given time during the school year, and often the terms include submitting chapter minutes, holding additional membership workshops, etc. I don't think this is something that needs to be broadcast if it is already being dealt with. In the case of a probation where the chapter may not hold any kind of social events or participate in university events, then yes, a certain amount of disclosure might be deemed necessary. But in my experience, sororities are loathe to put chapters on this kind of probation in the fall because it can affect fall recruitment numbers and the budget set for the chapter when an expected number of PNMs are anticipated to help meet that budget and housing costs with their dues.

I don't think broadcasting "XYZ is on probation for hosting an unapproved social and now needs to have a workshop on the importance of meeting deadlines and submitting paperwork" does anything for anyone. If XYZ is on social probation, they can put a positive spin on it by promoting "Sisterhood Semester" and a huge variety of activities designed to celebrate their organization. It just depends... I would expect that advisers and nationals would work with the chapter officers to help a chapter complete a probation and if it is expected to affect recruitment, to find a "spin" to help them remain competitive.

[ZTAngel]

And I guess this is my point. Shouldn't PNMs know if a chapter is on probation? It just seems like it would be fair to all the PNMs to know what to expect socially their first semester. Especially since the probation is until the end of fall 2007.

"Restrictive Probation: The following organization is not permitted to host events involving alcohol. Any house parties, mixers, socials, events or recruitment activities must be alcohol-free (dry)."

My chapter has it handled. End of story. But thanks for everyone's concern.

Can we not talk about this anymore?

[PKPUCF]

Pi Kapp was (unfairly) suspended. However, please don't believe the OSI bullshit. We are currently using alternative methods to expose how corrupt and poorly run OSI is, which ultimately resulted in our initial suspension stemming from an '05 incident.

If you didn't know how poorly run and unjust OSI-Student Conduct is run, then you'll soon know. We're tired of sitting back and being trampled over while people make ignorant assumptions.

[Faith4Keep]

UCF sorority alumnae, are you thinking what I'm thinking? (I'm thinking... who's left to do homecoming?)

There are lots of larger fraternities at UCF nowadays. The larger ones include: Alpha Tau Omega, Theta Chi, Phi Delta Theta, Beta Theta Pi, Delta Upsilon, Kappa Sigma, Sigma Chi... there's probably more that I can't think of right now since we're in the summer. There's also lots of smaller ones. For Greek Week the Office of Fraternity and Sorority Life determine who are large frats and who are smaller ones and pair them up with each of the sororities, but for Homecoming it's every group for themselves; fraternities match up if they want and serenade the sororities they want.

Secondly, I stand corrected- I meant to say probabtion, not suspended. My mistake! :(

Third, my personal opinion on the subject of groups on probation is that, while PNMs should be smart enough to keep up with the information that is on the OFSL website themselves, they are generally pretty ignorant about it. I think it should be said, and possibly the rho gammas or exec board for recruitment might discuss why a group would recieve probation of any kind. On the other hand, doing so may have a huge affect on the chapter's recruitment. Either way, I don't feel that anything should be 'covered up' for the sake of recruitment.

Finally, I'm not thrilled with the above poster who says they are going to "expose" OSI. I'm sure you are angry and upset with how things are happening, but it seems pretty clear to me (and a lot of my greek friends) that it was a pretty silly idea to hold a chapter event (with girls who will take lots of pictures and put them on facebook, nonetheless) when you are on social probation. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but I'm just surprised that no one stood up and said "This might just get us in more deep with the university than we already are". OSI is a fairly well run SGA entity, and I would suggest that if you have issues with the system, your best bet would be to discuss this with the office of Student Rights and Responsibilities, or talk to President Hitt about it at an Open Forum.

Sorry for the crazy long post!

[Kevin]

First of all, brothers need to be made aware that under no circumstances should there ever be cameras at these events. You can't prevent camera phones, etc., but obviously, if someone is walking around snapping pictures with their digital camera, tell them to stop or leave.

Next, if you're drinking, plastic opaque cups are cheap. They should absolutely be used, no question.

Lastly, talk to your chapter about what is and isn't okay to put on their myspace/facebook. Make sure your chapter's judicial officers have a policy for dealing with these sites.

Pictures have brought down several chapters in recent weeks. It's best not to engage in the behavior that'd get you in trouble, but assuming that you do, just an ounce of preparation can avoid most myspace/facebook snafus.

[Faith4Keep]

Pictures have brought down several chapters in recent weeks. It's best not to engage in the behavior that'd get you in trouble, but assuming that you do, just an ounce of preparation can avoid most myspace/facebook snafus.

Terrible, isn't it? Unfortuately, there are even more chapters that are dealing with PR issues regarding facebook, myspace, and alcohol.

[PKPUCF]

Finally, I'm not thrilled with the above poster who says they are going to "expose" OSI. I'm sure you are angry and upset with how things are happening, but it seems pretty clear to me (and a lot of my greek friends) that it was a pretty silly idea to hold a chapter event (with girls who will take lots of pictures and put them on facebook, nonetheless) when you are on social probation. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but I'm just surprised that no one stood up and said "This might just get us in more deep with the university than we already are". OSI is a fairly well run SGA entity, and I would suggest that if you have issues with the system, your best bet would be to discuss this with the office of Student Rights and Responsibilities, or talk to President Hitt about it at an Open Forum.

Sorry for the crazy long post!

No offense- but your defense of OSI doesn't resonate with me because you haven't dealt with them as we have. We've had to deal with OSI for over a year and a half, and not at all because of us ourselves. What is your experience with OSI......and more particularly, Student Conduct?

To me, it seems as though you are running your mouth about Pi Kapp without any understanding of the facts.

Did you know it took 9 months for Student Conduct to hold a hearing, which was supposed to be done within 2 weeks of the accusation?

Did you know Pi Kapp was suspended in Fall '06 based upon testimony of a surpise witness, a clear violation of our student AND legal rights?

Did you know the surpise witness was never mentioned in the 9 months previous by our accuser? Did you know he was never identified, never appeared in court, and was never REQUESTED to appear?

Did you know that we submited an appeal co-written by a lawyer to OSC, requesting a follow-up hearing with the "myserty man" actually PRESENT and IDENTIFIED.........yet were DENIED? (Another clear violation of our rights).

Did you know OSI did not wait until our hearings about formal to decide our punishment?

I could go on and on. I don't pretend that you know all (if any) of the details of the massive debacle we've had with this office, but please don't comment on things you clearly don't understand.

Lastly, it didn't occur to us that a formal dinner held through a 3rd party vendor would land us 4 years. It was even explained to us, ridiculously, that a gathering of 5 or more brothers is considered a social fraternity function. So, going to dinner with 5 of my brothers was technically in violation of our suspension. Sometimes we should let common sense and logic supercede petty technicalities, no?

[Faith4Keep]

I've been very involved with OSI through my leadership in various student organizations. I know how they run and do things, and I've had plenty of problems with myself. Coincidently, most of the problems I've had with OSI have been fairness issues.

Like I said, I'm not pointing fingers and I'm not "running my mouth". But I had to slap my forehead when I was speaking to a girl (who is a mutual friend) and works at a UCF office when she said "OH yeah, I went to PI Kapp's formal and it was a blast!!". I had no idea about the rest of your debacle, but if it is true that you got together and had a 'formal' then I personally feel there is no excuse. You were on social probation and those were the terms. Regardless of what had previously happened, in any case like this you have two choices- suck it up and get through it, or cry out "Injustice!!!" and try to ignore it/fight back. Most of the time, sucking it up works better.

Unfortunately, the official event rule- that's one of the UCF rules that I'm heavily pursuing to get re-written right now by the Golden Rule committee. During a meeting of SGA's Student Advocacy Committee, we were reading over the proposed Medical Amnesty bill when I saw that when two members of any organization are socializing, it is considered an official event of that organization. I think that is absolutely rediculous. And while that rule is rarely used to define an RSO's event, it CAN be used to define one because that's what's currently written. I'm really, really sorry for that.

But- it's not like you were "uninformed". It did not have to be explained to you, because you signed a paper early in your college career that said that you understand the Golden Rule and will adhere to it, as well as any changes that the GR committee deem necessary (or something to this effect). Again, unfortunately, many student organizations (not just greek) can and will get in trouble under this stupid, rediculous rule. So, you can't be upset that it's being used against you if you did not read the rules. Rediculous, yes. Uninformed, unfortunately no.

I definitely agree with your last comment, that logic should supercede technicalities... but businesses and corporations, even educational institutions, use what's in writing.... (not logic). Sucks.

I can only assume what's going on (maybe they couldn't put together a unbiased Student Conduct hearing, since many of those on the committee are greek?) but because of the situation, I won't assume. I urge you, in fact I beg you, to not "expose" OSI in any crazy protest or going through the sentinel or whatever, which it sounds like you are wanting to do (another assumption). If you have any respect for your fellow students, and even moreso your fellow greeks, you will not cause more problems in the system.

What I CAN say is talk to President Hitt, Provost Hickey, and Dr. Ehasz about the situation in a respectful manner. They have open forums and from my personal experience, I have gotten several drawn-out campus-wide problems solved just by explaining the situation to them. I'll warn you though, they hate nothing more than an angry, disrespectful, impolite student who won't let the admins get a word out. You could also go through OMBUDS. You could talk to the Board of Trustees, even the Board of Governors. You could do so many more things before resorting to whatever you are going to do. Please, don't make it harder on the rest of us than it already is.

[PKPUCF]

I've been very involved with OSI through my leadership in various student organizations. I know how they run and do things, and I've had plenty of problems with myself. Coincidently, most of the problems I've had with OSI have been fairness issues.

Like I said, I'm not pointing fingers and I'm not "running my mouth". But I had to slap my forehead when I was speaking to a girl (who is a mutual friend) and works at a UCF office when she said "OH yeah, I went to PI Kapp's formal and it was a blast!!". I had no idea about the rest of your debacle, but if it is true that you got together and had a 'formal' then I personally feel there is no excuse. You were on social probation and those were the terms. Regardless of what had previously happened, in any case like this you have two choices- suck it up and get through it, or cry out "Injustice!!!" and try to ignore it/fight back. Most of the time, sucking it up works better.

Unfortunately, the official event rule- that's one of the UCF rules that I'm heavily pursuing to get re-written right now by the Golden Rule committee. During a meeting of SGA's Student Advocacy Committee, we were reading over the proposed Medical Amnesty bill when I saw that when two members of any organization are socializing, it is considered an official event of that organization. I think that is absolutely rediculous. And while that rule is rarely used to define an RSO's event, it CAN be used to define one because that's what's currently written. I'm really, really sorry for that.

But- it's not like you were "uninformed". It did not have to be explained to you, because you signed a paper early in your college career that said that you understand the Golden Rule and will adhere to it, as well as any changes that the GR committee deem necessary (or something to this effect). Again, unfortunately, many student organizations (not just greek) can and will get in trouble under this stupid, rediculous rule. So, you can't be upset that it's being used against you if you did not read the rules. Rediculous, yes. Uninformed, unfortunately no.

I definitely agree with your last comment, that logic should supercede technicalities... but businesses and corporations, even educational institutions, use what's in writing.... (not logic). Sucks.

I can only assume what's going on (maybe they couldn't put together a unbiased Student Conduct hearing, since many of those on the committee are greek?) but because of the situation, I won't assume. I urge you, in fact I beg you, to not "expose" OSI in any crazy protest or going through the sentinel or whatever, which it sounds like you are wanting to do (another assumption). If you have any respect for your fellow students, and even moreso your fellow greeks, you will not cause more problems in the system.

What I CAN say is talk to President Hitt, Provost Hickey, and Dr. Ehasz about the situation in a respectful manner. They have open forums and from my personal experience, I have gotten several drawn-out campus-wide problems solved just by explaining the situation to them. I'll warn you though, they hate nothing more than an angry, disrespectful, impolite student who won't let the admins get a word out. You could also go through OMBUDS. You could talk to the Board of Trustees, even the Board of Governors. You could do so many more things before resorting to whatever you are going to do. Please, don't make it harder on the rest of us than it already is.

Where do I begin?

First- you admit yourself that OSC/OSI is unfair, yet tell me to "suck it up" and not protest? What on earth is that about? I should just accept the fact that an unfair organization took away my fraternity and not even try to formulate a response at all? I guess we should just sit back and let OSI do whatever they want with no checks or balances and trample anyones' rights they want? It's a good thing our justice system wasn't formed under your "suck it up" principle.

As far as The Golden Rule, why shouldn't OSI/OSC be held to that as well? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be governed by the SAME rules they're charged to enforce? That is utterly ridiculous. Like I said, if that's the case then I feel terrible for the masses of people who will be trampled by this organization.

And, if somehow OSI is exposed- I'll say GOOD. If OSC can trample the rights of a BIG fraternity, I can only imagine what they're doing to invidiual students. As for "my fellow students", I'd be doing them a favor. OSC should be run fairly, which it clearly is not right now. If you say Pi Kapp should be held accountable (as in ME, etc.) then why shouldn't the people running OSI?

As for the "public forums"- what a joke. I've seen Hitt, etc. talk at those. It's a mere smokescreen for students to feel like they're actually represented. We've tried to talk with UCF and OSI, and every appeal has fallen on def ears. I've already highlighted how our rights were totally stomped all over.

But sorry- "sucking it up" is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. We have the right to fend for ourselves- not even OSI can take that away.

[Faith4Keep]

In an effort to keep this calm I'll leave all the stuff about OSI/OSC be. I do agree, however, that they should be held to the same standards. Unfortunately they are UCF entities, not RSOs.

You obviously don't believe me when I say I've contributed to solving NUMEROUS campus problems just by speaking up about them. If you've ever used the shuttle system, I've worked to make it more efficient (and now, more people use the shuttles than ever). The new letters on the parking garage? I brought up the idea. Why UCF stores carry more grocery store type items? Because I asked President Hitt, in front of a crowd of 150 or so, if he would walk from a dorm on campus to the local publix and back just to get some milk/eggs/bread. If you don't believe me, fine, but I'm telling you it's worth a shot.

Good luck with everything, I really hope that you find what you are looking for.

[PKPUCF]

In an effort to keep this calm I'll leave all the stuff about OSI/OSC be. I do agree, however, that they should be held to the same standards. Unfortunately they are UCF entities, not RSOs.

You obviously don't believe me when I say I've contributed to solving NUMEROUS campus problems just by speaking up about them. If you've ever used the shuttle system, I've worked to make it more efficient (and now, more people use the shuttles than ever). The new letters on the parking garage? I brought up the idea. Why UCF stores carry more grocery store type items? Because I asked President Hitt, in front of a crowd of 150 or so, if he would walk from a dorm on campus to the local publix and back just to get some milk/eggs/bread. If you don't believe me, fine, but I'm telling you it's worth a shot.

Good luck with everything, I really hope that you find what you are looking for.

I commend you for those things. However, asking Hitt to investigate unfairness and possibly corruption in the 2nd biggest student organization is a bit different than asking for groceries and letters on buildings. FYI- We've sent a letter to Hitt twice now and have only received generic, info-less replies.

[adpiucf]

Stop sending letters and call his office to schedule a meeting. It's going to be far more proactive on the part of your chapter to have a 2-way conversation than continue the paper trail.

Some of your chapter's Founding Fathers are among my closest friends. I hope that the men who have come after them will do all they can to follow the Golden Rule and seek fairness and responsibility in a mature way befitting UCF and your organization. I wish you all the best.

[TSteven]

If I may, what is the UCF Golden Rule? And what is the Golden Rule committee that oversees it?

[adpiucf]

If I may, what is the UCF Golden Rule? And what is the Golden Rule committee that oversees it?

The Golden Rule (and committee) are the formal rules for student conduct at the university. The name is a spin on the "Do unto others/Golden Rule" and the university's colors (we are the Golden Knights... ok, they just dropped the word "Golden" and now we are just the Knights.... but our colors are still Black and Gold!)

[FSUZeta]

the NPC greenbook states that sororities will not be punished by suspending their recruiting, or forfeiting their new member classes, so i would imagine that a discussion by recruitment counselors to explain what "probation" means and to advise pnms if any sorority chapters are currently on probation would, in effect, be punishing them, thus violating NPC policy.

it could also be considered a rush infraction if any sorority happened to "mention" anothers probation to a pnm.

[Faith4Keep]

If I may, what is the UCF Golden Rule? And what is the Golden Rule committee that oversees it?

The Golden Rule is the set of rules that students are expected to follow. It covers everything from drinking, to cheating, to discrimination, to hygeine. I mean, everything. Each student, by being an enrolled student at the University, agrees to abide by the Golden Rule. ANY student or student organization can suffer the consequences if they do not follow the Golden Rule. See here : http://www.goldenrule.sdes.ucf.edu/

The Golden Rule review committee is a group of 7 students who make and review proposals for changes to the Golden Rule. Then they recommend any changes they deem necessary. They meet on a standard schedule and meetings are open to anyone: http://www.osc.sdes.ucf.edu/osc_GoldenRuleReviewCommittee.asp

Most of these types of committees have lots of Greeks on them :)

[adpiucf]

EVERY UCF organization is overrun by the Greeks. It's a conspiracy. :cool:

[Faith4Keep]

Haha I wouldn't say that. There are many organizations that are heavily overseen by UCF staff that try to prevent greeks from being leaders in those organizations (Honors Congress, LEAD Scholars, professional organizations, etc). But, in groups where they are selected (not elected) such as standing committees, (GRRC, Student Conduct Board, etc) those are mostly greeks. Which is why I was saying it was probably difficult for the Office of Student Conduct to put together an unbiased group for any of the Greek probation/suspension hearings. But, in many ways, you are very correct! GO GREEK UCF!

[PKPUCF]

That's exactly the problem with Student Conduct. Many times a decision can be passed based upon if the panel is pro or anti you before you enter the room.

UCF needs to appoint a 3rd party, neutral panel and make sure that a legal counsel oversees every hearing to make sure these hearings are run legally.

[Faith4Keep]

I guess it was just an assumption that SLS (Student Legal Services) sat in on every hearing anyhow. But regardless, I wonder if these cases are actually legal issues or not-- you know, like lawyers are well-versed in US law or whatever they specialize in, you would need a neutral party that is well versed in UCF "law". Which is supposed to be the SCB. ::rolls eyes:: oh well. Things are just never the way they should be.

[PKPUCF]

I guess it was just an assumption that SLS (Student Legal Services) sat in on every hearing anyhow. But regardless, I wonder if these cases are actually legal issues or not-- you know, like lawyers are well-versed in US law or whatever they specialize in, you would need a neutral party that is well versed in UCF "law". Which is supposed to be the SCB. ::rolls eyes:: oh well. Things are just never the way they should be.

Since UCF is a public school apart of the Florida system, they are bound by the laws of the state, and thus students are to be granted their legal rights in any school proceeding.

Every hearing should be run in accordance to legal correctness. To not do so would be a violation of students' rights. Remember- students must follow UCF's rules, but UCF must obey the law and uphold all rights of students. They don't supercede those.

[Firehouse]

Since UCF is a public school apart of the Florida system, they are bound by the laws of the state, and thus students are to be granted their legal rights in any school proceeding.

Every hearing should be run in accordance to legal correctness. To not do so would be a violation of students' rights. Remember- students must follow UCF's rules, but UCF must obey the law and uphold all rights of students. They don't supercede those.

Absolutely! Public universities are bound by public law. To say that a student is obliged to obey all their rules simply by enrolling is bogus. Speech codes is an example of what universities try, often unsuccessfully, to impose.

Someone here said that the best approach for a greek group is to just bow your head and take your lumps. No doubt that's sometimes true depending on what you've been up to. But if a greek group wants to challenge the university on the basis of due process, they'll usually have a good case because of the arrogance and bullying of administrators who think they can make up the rules as they go long.

[PKPUCF]

Absolutely! Public universities are bound by public law. To say that a student is obliged to obey all their rules simply by enrolling is bogus. Speech codes is an example of what universities try, often unsuccessfully, to impose.

Someone here said that the best approach for a greek group is to just bow your head and take your lumps. No doubt that's sometimes true depending on what you've been up to. But if a greek group wants to challenge the university on the basis of due process, they'll usually have a good case because of the arrogance and bullying of administrators who think they can make up the rules as they go long.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Due process and upholding of legal rights should be guarenteed to students, and if they're not then the organization must be called out for it. THere's no doubt in my mind that a certain degree of arrogance has been a factor in our case, and I'm sure the cases of TONS of cases handled in similar procedures.

Another tip- ALL DOCUMENTS, including EMAILS, involving university employees are allowed to be viewed under the Freedom of Information Act. Don't be afriad to seek documents that you want- they are public records.

[fifi225]

The new letters on the parking garage? I brought up the idea.


Holy crap, that was you?! That's seriously the most brilliant idea ever. No...really...I went there for 5 years and had no idea what garage was what. I was on campus last week and nearly wrapped myself around a tree looking at one of the garages and exclaiming to my old roommate "WOW! What a brilliant idea!"

[alphagamgirlie]

Holy crap, that was you?! That's seriously the most brilliant idea ever. No...really...I went there for 5 years and had no idea what garage was what. I was on campus last week and nearly wrapped myself around a tree looking at one of the garages and exclaiming to my old roommate "WOW! What a brilliant idea!"

LOL, I guess it's a half & half thing, some people like it & some don't... I have no idea what those letters are all about, are they in a clockwise or counterclockwise circle around campus? I only park in the 1 behind HPA so I don't know what the other letters on the other garages are. I'm better with directions with calling it the old North, East, South & West garages... except that new huge garage was called Garage V (5...ha "south-west") when I saw it on the map.

Still a great idea though, when your talking about where you parked at, you only have to say one letter & not a whole word like north....hahahaha.

[Pierce]

I think that it is completely sad that fraternities are getting kicked off campuses nation wide. In fact, I think it's pathetic. I realize that there are some things that go too far, but some things are just tradition. We just had a chapter get in trouble with their nationals for having their pledges go and retrieve composites from each fraternity. They were split into groups and this has been tradition for as far back as anyone can remember...things like this is just fun, tradition, and should be left alone by nationals and the media alike. I realize that getting your pledges unbelievably drunk is not the best idea, but sometimes (if no one is getting truely hurt), you've just got to leave well enough alone. Greeks are an exclusive part of universities for a reason.

The sad fact is people do get hurt and killed and we are in a society that sues for everything and everyone suffers. My chapter did not haze but they made the pledges do silly things. It was a small house they were very united and it was a lot of fun. Mind you, I became a member at age 35 as a graduate student. I am a risk management advisor now and i am lucky with the chapter I deal with, you have to be careful , stupidity makes everyone look bad, and you dont want to be asked questions you dont have answers for. In the 80's when i was an undergrad and you had hazing it was a real turn off. All frats were a turn off. They were obnoxious. i truly love my frat, (Sig Ep), and the chapter I deal with, people have their opinions but they are about what the frat was intended. they do well academically, get along, and there is no drama. We had a goofy phraise at a part time job i had once" its always funny til someone loses an eye" well this is true. Or a life or anything else. It is supposed to be fun and enhance the college experience and the life experience. That should be the focus. "Proud to be a sig ep"!