Observations

[DoggyStyle82]

Being new here and having inspected some threads, I am amazed at the dichotomy of opinions expressed by all the Greeks. I am considered "old school" (pledged pre-intake). I see alot of opinions that would have never been expressed in my neophyte days. I also noticed that many of the moderators are either straight intake or made in alumni chapters (not that that is good or bad, it just colors most of the opinions) Although I pledged and was hazed in an undergrad chapter, many years later I am active and financial. I have gotten an education by reading the threads. Man, have times changed. Peace yall.

[dyhardque]

Dawg, what differences do you notice? You hold a valuable opinion. Many are very sensitive about how they crossed, so they can not help but be defensive about certain subjects. Of course, most do not have a choice in the matter. They have to go with the program that is in place.

For the record, I pledged and I am proud of that because it was an organized process. It was led by experienced bruhs that knew what was supposed to be accomplished. They taught and they challenged us. They knew when to police the bruhs and when to let the bruhs wreck. I shed blood, sweat, and tears for Omega and I am still active and productive. And always will be.

And I'm gone
Roof

[DoggyStyle82]

Dawg, that is good to hear about your process. Generally, I was speaking about other orgs. Having had an above ground pledge period and running around on the yard as a Lamp, was tremendous. I think all Greeks are being cheated by MIT. There was never a real vs. fake debate or paper vs pledging. There were skaters, but even they pledged. I don't see how one can be an Omega without being both a Lamp and a Dog. I have met members of each org who have no ideal of what their respective pledgees are called during Hell Week, but then again, there is no such thing. It is just that valuable traditions, history, bonding moments, and the essence of what the org is about is learned during pledging. I am just grateful that I pledged when the process had meaning. I could really write a book on the value of a good pledge program. Todays opinions on pledging are distorted because intake people think that it is about a beatdown and that was never really the case. Its about marching on the yard, greeting big bruhs in public, serenading the Deltas, being dressed alike, social silence, the Lamp Stare, the Dog Grit, not walking on grass, always running, never seen walking or eating in public, the unbreakable chain, six men living, sleeping, and eating together, never separated for six weeks, crossing "real" sands together, a sense of accomplishment and rightful entitlement. Knowing everyone on the yard gives you props because they saw and heard your hardships and know that you did something that they wish that they had the heart to do. Lawsuits were unheard of in the 80's (unless someone was permanently disfigured of killed) You couldn't sue for taking wood or getting your feelings hurt like people do now. Oh well, sorry for the sermon

[dyhardque]

Don't apologize for the truth bruh. It was said very well, and I agree. The pledge program is extremely important. Experiences and lessons that I will have for a lifetime came through my pledgeship, and I will pass it on. Traditions are what are at the core of our strength. It is more than could be put on paper and held by a paperclip. I guess that is why no one understands why we do the things that we do. I fear that we will lose these traditions ( no more dog night, no more turnback). Will we diversify out of existence. I have always thought that nothing could stop Omega but Omega.

Anyway, there aer many bruhs that feel strongly about it. The bruhs that made me, passed it on. And I will do the same.

And I'm gone

[the411]

DoggyStyle82,

You bring up a point I've been screaming to make for a while. I am by no means what you would call "old skool" in that I pledged in '97. I will not disclose information about my process, for obvious reasons. But, here is my POV on pledging:

Like you, I think that the definition of "pledging" has been very distored over the years. To me, it has come to mean "hazing" when the two words are VERY different. Because of the new "interchangability" of the two words, most of the traditions you speak of like:

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
marching on the yard, greeting big bruhs in public, serenading the Deltas, being dressed alike, social silence, the Lamp Stare, the Dog Grit, not walking on grass, always running, never seen walking or eating in public, the unbreakable chain, six men living, sleeping, and eating together, never separated for six weeks, crossing "real" sands together,

...are considered hazing although they are the very things that many greeks reminisce about with starry (and sometimes, teary eyes), and with smiles characteristic of a child remembering happy times and childhood friends. My cousins and I used to LOVE hearing pledge stories told by my mom, aunts, and uncles and their greek friends. I had huge expectations of what I'd go through, so it was quite a shock to find that the only way tradition could be carried on was "underground". Part of the fun for old-skool greeks was the above-yard pagentry of pledging; nowadays pledgees can't even dress alike!

I agree that many, many, many greek chapters have taken things WAY too far. In a public speaking class I did a presentation about hazing. My research findings would make your jaw drop; some of the things pledgees were put through were sickening, life-threatening, and even deadly! But I can't help but feel like the "new" definitation of "pledging" (i.e. hazing) isn't meant to keep these gruesome acts from occuring, but more to protect greek organizations in the face of lawsuits.

What do YOU think?

Coleman Luv!

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by the411:
DoggyStyle82,

What do YOU think?

Coleman Luv!

Hazing has been around since the inception of Greek life. It is unfortunate that the fond recall that your relatives have is missing. The Omega that my son will pledge (hopefully) will not resemble what I knew. My memories are of hard, but not dangerous or life-threatening times. I would be interested in your research. Everyone screams about the dangers and hazards, but do you realize that hundreds of thousands of greeks pledged each year with only one or two noticable incidents (maiming or death). The real threat is lawsuits. I have 4 l.bs who did not make it. Under todays laws, any of them could have sued for 6 figures. Not becaused they got injured, but becaused they were hazed (took wood, dressed alike, ran , did errands) Ever hear one of your National officers tell a pledging story?. I personally know that one of our national officers was one of the most feared hazers in the state, now he toes the party line for fear of lawsuits. All of our respective national officers know that Pledging makes a better bruh/soror, if not member (it obviously did not dissuade them!) but they have to spit that anti-pledging propaganda for the suits. Todays underground pledging is dangerous because it is a bastardized version of the real thing and is not structured properly, nor are the hazers and pledgees physically or psychologically prepared. Therefore, injuries have mounted along with lawsuits and suspensions, split lines, paper vs. real, prospectives worried about getting a "beat down", and this pseudo gang mentality of some chapters. I never seen so many people proud of the fact that they did not pledge to get their membership. I have seen too many one weekend wonders and check writers. Have to stop rambling. Much love Soror.

[the411]

Ditto. You are indeed an educator!
I notice that your e-mail addy isn't posted. I'd be really interested in talking privately. Could you e-mail me?

------------------
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[Reds695]

Oh my god I totally agree. I'm new to this website, but I have noticed that many take the politically correct stanz. I don't know if it is a part of being found out by saying this is how things were for me or what. I believe in being made right and thats all I'm gonna say. I have found that people want to take the easy route. Hit me on email 411 or DoggieStyle at smcallister@falkeinc.com

[Law & Order]

I am new to the board but came across your comments about pledging and hazing. Fortunately I come from a chapter that did allow our members to be "pledged".

It was mandatory that members dressed a like, exercised, walked in a straight line, etc. Our advisors informed our pyramid club that there is a pledge process and if they think that there wasn't then they should decline their membership.

I was MADE in '95.

oo-oop!

[DoggyStyle82]

Good to hear that Law & Order. I am exactly that kind of advisor.

[latinkingsp00]

Bruz,

As a Quethousand bruh, fresh off the sands, I am proud to say that my chapter made me right. I have had the pleasure of being made by older bruz who have maintained our beloved traditions in tact. In today's society we do have to be tactful or creative because of those haters, but we have still persevered...

Many are fixated on the physical aspect because it is tangible but that's the easy part and the bruz know what I mean. The comradie, the bonding, the bleeding, sweating for one common goal to enter into OMEGALAND is a blessed feeling. Life is not easy thus...through strife one becomes a stronger man, person, unit, brother.....

There are extreme cases where things happen...but life is not PERFECT!!!!

The important thing is to comprehend that if our ancestors who were slaves persevered and became stonger under far more extreme circumstances....then we need to be continuosly grateful and continue to rise. For those who choose simpler routes oh well....

The value of our fraternity is not in numbers but in men, real men......

Roo Older Bruz!!!!!

[mccoyred]

Hey, hey!! Coleman Luv to all the bruhs (ooooop-roooo) and MAD Delta Luv to all my sorors (ooooo-ooop). Old skool soror in da' house (1986)!!

Frats, I agree. When pledging was outlawed and MIP was instituted, many of the good traditions suffered. I pray we come to a happy medium where a tight bond is formed thru traditons but people do not have to fear for their lives.

I'm out....



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mccoyred

Dynamic
Salient
Temperate

[DoggyStyle82]

Latin Kings, good to hear that Dawg. People who have not pledged are only getting about 50% of the experience. My chapter bruhs and I spend more time talking war stories and chapter pledge situations than about any other thing. Bonding is the key. Whats up McCoyRed. C=Luv to you to.

[PositivelyAKA]

Men of Omega Psi Phi i hope you don't mind a pretty and intelligent soror of AKA posting on your board. its good to see all the activity in here. DoggyStlye82 i agree and hear your points. my question to you since you are old school and know what real pledging is like, is what do you suggest perspective members or neos do if their chapter does not provide a pledge process for them? also i am the last one to say that MIP is wonderful cause it ain't, with that said should those who come thru mip be ashamed of their process? its not their fault after all that pledging is illegal now? and lastly if your child decided to join your organization would you see them or appreciate others who see them as paper/not really a member due to something they had no control over. thank you.

[DoggyStyle82]

Positivley AKA, it is good to see someone actually respect an opinion that they differ with and seek dialog rather than argument. If and when my son pledges (my org hopefully), I would hope that he has the opportunity to pledge and not MIP. For other orgs, I cannot speak, but to get the full essence, meaning, and purpose of Omega, one must pledge. The training, bonding, and life skills and lessons learned are integral to the development of the 4 Cardinal Principles. The many young men that you see misrepresenting Omega are victims of a haphazard process. NHPC groups should return to some semblance of their previous pledge process. We can either kill ourselves externally with lawsuits or internally with the divisiveness, paper vs real, suspended chapters, and lack of brotherhood/sisterhood that has resulted from MIP. It is not a prospectives fault. They are the victim. We have way more drama in Greekdom now. No wonder GDIs and the general public think that we are irrelevant (other than stepshows or parties) They see easy membership, lines of 60 to 100, disunity in chapters, bruhs fighting bruhs, sorors disrespecting sorors, Greeks didsrespecting Greeks, young members hating older ones. IT IS NOT ATTRACTIVE!!! These problems were around on a smaller level, but have been excaserbated and magnified by MIP. By the time my son gets to college I doubt if any NPHC org will exist in its undergraduate form.

[DoggyStyle82]

Sorry about the long post. To answer your question, nothing can be done. New members are in the proverbial Catch 22. Intake programs are designed to meet the specifications of lawyers, banks and insurance companies. Intake has nothing to do with creating and fostering the fraternal spirit, training new members, nor indoctrinating them into the philosophy and purpose of the org. MIP is designed to gain membership in compliance with non-members guidelines. There used to be a distinct difference among the 4 sororities. Now they are indistinguishable. Now interests do research on the net, read In Search of Sisterhood, go to everyones rush, knows everyones call, party strolls, then decide on a sorority, 2 weeks later write a check and a weekend of MIP, voila!, you have an instant AKADSTZPBSGR. You might as well flip a coin. It is the pledge process (the indoctrination period) that differentiates the org. Without that, you basically have the same org, different colors.

[the411]

So, with that in mind, do you think it's possible for someone who wasn't pledged to pledge someone else? In other words, what about those chapters that are by-the-book (i.e. paper, cat, skaters, etc.) and ostracized by local collegiate chapters because of it? How can pledging become the new chapter trend if no one in the chapter has pledged? I know of chapters like this, but it's difficult to know whether or not someone who isn't a part of the chapter can step in to help out when the current chapter members are anti-pledging.



------------------
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[the411]

Another thought...

Reading back over PositivelyAKA's post, I thought of another question for you, Frat:

How do you feel about post-pledging those who came through the MIP? This happens in many chapters-- namely those known for being paper. Is post-pledging the answer?

------------------
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[PositivelyAKA]

thanks DoggyStyle82 couldn't have said it better myself. peace.

[DoggyStyle82]

411: you open another can of worms. Pledging is a carefully constructed process. It can easily degenerate into hazing in the wrong (untrained) hands. When you haven't ever been "on line" you don't know where to draw the line. A person who has never pledged, but then pledges someone else is probably doing it for the wrong reasons. The situation is most dangerous when a chapter loses its continuity. There is just too much danger with unpledged or half-pledged (only hazed) people overseeing a line.

[DoggyStyle82]

411: BTW, if you ain't never been in the cut, you should not ever swing, unless you are willing to take the some first.(speaking for myself only).

[DoggyStyle82]

411: I'll have to respond to your private e-mail. Look for it soon.

[PrettyKitty]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
Sorry about the long post. To answer your question, nothing can be done. New members are in the proverbial Catch 22. Intake programs are designed to meet the specifications of lawyers, banks and insurance companies. Intake has nothing to do with creating and fostering the fraternal spirit, training new members, nor indoctrinating them into the philosophy and purpose of the org. MIP is designed to gain membership in compliance with non-members guidelines. There used to be a distinct difference among the 4 sororities. Now they are indistinguishable. Now interests do research on the net, read In Search of Sisterhood, go to everyones rush, knows everyones call, party strolls, then decide on a sorority, 2 weeks later write a check and a weekend of MIP, voila!, you have an instant AKADSTZPBSGR. You might as well flip a coin. It is the pledge process (the indoctrination period) that differentiates the org. Without that, you basically have the same org, different colors.


I was just passing through and thought I would comment. What differences are you referring to? I am very curious to know what you are talking about.

As for pledging, it will never end. But in my opinion, people do crazier and more dangerous things now then they did then, because certain old heads can't let go of the process and keep making the younger greeks feel like they need to be "made right"
in order to get half the respect.

The powers that be have pushed membership intake on us and refuse to listen when we say that it's not working. They point to chapters that seem to have sucessful intake processes and say, see that's a good example of the validity of MIP...but in all actuality these same chapters are pledging underground.

I am not saying that I am for or against anything. But what I am saying is that a real solution must be met in order to correct the problem because the band-aid called MIP is not working.

I am proud to say I earned my letters, and can't a soul take that away from me!

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The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman (http://www.finerwoman.com), That's Me!

[Hudson]

I find your arguments to be interesting. AFter all the deaths, mamming, paralysis, broken bones, organs, etc., now you guys are reflecting on the RIGHT way to pledge. Where were you when things were getting out of hand? You know where you were? Right there in the middle of the madness! All you ole school Bruhs criticizing the new members who did MIP need to stop. Its ALL YOUR FAULT why pledging was banned. If yall was policing back then, then you would be pledging others, legally now. Don't blame the new people for something YOU CREATED. Enough is enough!!!!!

[DoggyStyle82]

HUDSON:

What is the source of your anger? This seems kind of personal to you,

I can truthfully say that I have never hurt, injured, emotionally wounded, nor scarred anyone under my jurisdiction. Despite what you may think that you know, there were relatively few deaths and maimings (1 is too many) relative to the number of succesful initiations.

Perception and perspective is the key.

[DoggyStyle82]

CUJO87:

Team, is that Pi Mu at San Diego? Anyway, I see that we are in agreement.

Anyway, it was not Old School pledging that caused MIP. It was the result of new state laws as to what constituted hazing and certain specific HBCU's (most notably Morehouse) who had major incidents. Since the NHPC did not or could not reasonably argue the cultural significance and the necesssity of our traditions, traditional pledging was done away with altogether and replaced with intake.

I don't argue against Intake members, just the intake process.

[Hudson]

That may be true. But what was the nature or reason for the new state laws. How or why did they come about. Because of the things that got out of hand prior to 1990. I'm not arguing with the intentions and the value of pledging. I just find it that some greeks members are in denial of why the MIP Process came about. I think the MIP process is good thing because it forces those who chooses to participate in an underground process to be more careful. Ofcourse you still have those who don't give a f--k. They risk expulsion just they could beat people unconscious.

[DoggyStyle82]

I am still not sure where you are coming from or what you have experienced. The new state laws came about because of an advocacy group called "CHUCK". A white woman whose white son died pledging a white fraternity. He died from the result of a stupid drinking prank that is more typical of white frats than Black. The family could not press charges or have the perpetrators discipline by the school or the law. As a result of her advocacy, similar to MADD, many states adopted stricter anti-hazing laws, many of which made very innocuous activities to be considered hazing. None of these laws were as a result of any NPHC hazing incidents.

[KnowledgeEternal]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
It was the result of new state laws as to what constituted hazing and certain specific HBCU's (most notably Morehouse) who had major incidents.

Wow you learn something new everyday. I go to Morehouse and I didn't know that. I know that a lot of the frats have just recently come back to campus(Alphas in 98, Ques in 99, Kappas 00-01); but no one but the frats and the administration really knows for sure what happened. There have been a RIDICULOUS amount of rumors though.

BTW, Do you know anything about Morehouse's process now? If so what do you think about it? I have my own opinions on it, I just want to see some others.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

Ahhh...just the thread that i was looking for...

*let me preface my question by offering a story*

Does everyone remember A Different World? (http://www.tvtome.com/servlets/ShowMainServlet/showid-500/)
when A Different World first aired I was a sophomore in high school. And I loved it! So did my parents. We would watch it every thursday (reminiscing on when "black" television was informative and not a minstrel show). There were two episodes that now that I watch it every morning that I absolutely love! The first one was when Ron was pledging Kappa Lambda Nu (a fictional fraternity...for those that don't know)...and the second was when Kim was pledging Whitley's sorority Alpha Delta Rho (another fictional organization).

I remember watching the first episode about Ron with my mom...and watching the twinkle in her eyes as she "took a stroll down memory lane". It was also the episode that boosted me for my cotillion that was to happen in the spring with her sorority. She and I talked that evening about her experience on line back in the hmmmm...late 50's early 60's. Yes, she went through some sh*t...and she also experienced some great highs. But she never regreted the experience.

Later...I saw the episode when Kim was pledging and then and until this day I get pissed with her. So what she was a pre-med major and had two jobs...if "Big Sister Gorgeous One" (Whitley's name) told her to get up and get her breakfast at 5am then damn well she better do it! And you know what...I was pissed that she rallied the other line members to her side. AND SHE STILL GOT IN! Nah! I was angered because Kim did not know nor did not consider the value of what she was learning. Sisterhood above all else. Unity and devotion to the "history of Alpha Delta Rho"...you feel me? I had more respect for Ron and how he showed that Brotherhood was all for one and one for all. There is no time for "I" in brotherhood.

I am saying all this because i'm sure by now that Doggystyle82 is shocked that for once I agree.

Although I am not a greek...and I do bereave those who were killed and am saddened by those who were maimed by hazing. I must also say that those are exceptions to the rule. And if you look at the cases for the most part these incidences happened...after MIP.

My question is...

It is understood that Old Skool Greeks are not as "accepting" of those who are "made" by the MIP. But it is also understood that anyone who pledges now will, for the most part, be "made" through that process...and therefore they are technically victims of it and not always willing participants.
If you could restructure the pledging process by incorporating aspects of the MIP and the "old skool" way of pledging what would it be?
AND
Why has this not been done?
AND
What does one do with a member who is a "mad hazer" who consistently abuses and misuses their power?

*just a personal spin before i end*


Its about marching on the yard, greeting big bruhs in public, serenading the Deltas, being dressed alike, social silence, the Lamp Stare, the Dog Grit, not walking on grass, always running, never seen walking or eating in public, the unbreakable chain, six men living, sleeping, and eating together, never separated for six weeks, crossing "real" sands together, a sense of accomplishment and rightful entitlement.


these things are the things that i was told by my mom (of course in sorority form) and other friends that made them desire and pursue their respective organizations more. when i toured HBCU's as a 13-15 year old i remember seeing folx on line. And thinking damn...that is tight!

While I do not agree with being physically emotionally abused...I do believe that certain forms of the old skool way are some things that bind men and women together.

As I end this I will just say that I have in the past been ridiculed for thinking this way. Those who ridicule me say..."you don't know what it was like! it was horrible! and you don't respect yourself if you will let someone make you do something!" You can find these statements in many places on the net...if you voice the opinion (non-greek and greek alike) that there is some validity to the old skool way of pledging.

I just want to know how can there be a happy medium?

Peace

[Hudson]

I just don't understand why you would insult the MIP Process and the new members who chose to be initiated through it only. It was the activities of the old school members why MIP is in place today.

[Cujo 87]

THe mip Procees in my opinion is part of the problem. The mip process encouraged and continues to encourage more underground pledging. The people who go through an underground process do not fully experience nor understand what a "old School" Process is about, it certainly is not about trying to hurt or injure someone but to form an eternal bond,if you can notunderstand this then maybe you too missed an important part of your process.

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Omega Psi Phi
Spr87 PM
Ace - Trinymphods

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by mccoyred:
Coleman Luv to my Bruhs! and CONGRATULATIONS to DoggyStyle! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

As an Old Skooler who pledged in 1986 and made lines up until 1989, right before MIP, I can say that it was not the mentality of the sorors/frats but the changed mentality of the people who were applying for membership. The selection process changed and the mentality of applicants changed along with the 'law of the land'.

Pledging is/was not the problem, the definition of hazing is the problem.

How can we address the problem?
-first suspend intake for all orgs
-develop and STICK TO revised selection guidelines
-reinstitute interest groups and set guidelines for them
-reinstitute intake with well-defined PLEDGING guidelines
-TRAIN sorors/frats to perform pledging properly
-lobby to update the 'law' regarding hazing
-educate the public about what is RIGHT about pledging

Just some thoughts but I don't know how they can be implemented in this litigious society.



Well put, Soror. Sometimes we get caught up in talking about what is wrong with a thing. I appreciate the suggestons instead of just complaints.

[DoggyStyle82]

MCCOYRED:

We are of the same era and I see that we pretty much think alike on this subject. Our National bodies are in a Catch -22. Omega was the last org to adopt Intake and we almost did not do it (it was implemented without knowledge/consent of the general membership, but that is another story). The simple fact is, that if you are not in compliance with current state law, your org cannot be legally insured, you violate your tax-exempt status and can be stripped of it, no risk management underwriter will touch you, and most college campuses will revoke your status as a legal, campus recognized organization. Yes, the NPHC should lobby for the return to our non-hazing pledge traditions. But as long as we are in an anti-Greek climate and lawyers see dollar signs, the laws will not change. Did you know that there is a white lawyer based in MD whose practice is solely based on suing Black fraternities and sororities for hazing?

I wish we could go back because interests do have different expectations now and that leads to most of the so-called hazing incidents. we old-schoolers arer to blame when we glorify the past but then again, we know how it is supposed to be.

LASTPOET: glad that we agree on something. Your mom sounds like my kind of woman.

[the411]

A big problem I see is that interesteds feel they hold some kind of power--like they are the shot-callers, if you will. They know the anti-hazing laws are there, so they come into the process with a "you-can't-f%$#-with-me" attitude. There is little to no humility left, which is sad. I am not saying that humbling yourself means subjecting yourself to any and everything and living in total fear; I am saying that interesteds need to start realizing that we know what our orgs are looking for in prospective members, and that we know what they need to gain from the pledgeship in order to value and appreciate their familyhood. Nowadays, you've got pledgees calling bluffs and making threats, while we're "giving in" to save our chapters and keep our orgs out of the news over something that shouldn't even come close to being considered hazing (like dressing alike), but it is.

Pledging vs. Hazing. That's the issue. Although they aren't the same, the law has made them synonyms.




------------------
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by the411:
A big problem I see is that interesteds feel they hold some kind of power--like they are the shot-callers, if you will. They know the anti-hazing laws are there, so they come into the process with a "you-can't-f%$#-with-me" attitude. There is little to no humility left, which is sad.


Ms. Quintessence, you are so right. This is especially true of legacies and those interests who silent monitor Greek boards. They know that certain things that members consider "pledging" are technically or legally "hazing" and feel empowered to flaunt the inadequacies of the MIP, such as dropping dime when they are not accepted or refusing to humble themselves to "chapter traditions" . That is why orgs are full of "research" members and not "pledged" members

[mccoyred]

Coleman Luv to my Bruhs! and CONGRATULATIONS to DoggyStyle! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

As an Old Skooler who pledged in 1986 and made lines up until 1989, right before MIP, I can say that it was not the mentality of the sorors/frats but the changed mentality of the people who were applying for membership. The selection process changed and the mentality of applicants changed along with the 'law of the land'.

Pledging is/was not the problem, the definition of hazing is the problem.

How can we address the problem?
-first suspend intake for all orgs
-develop and STICK TO revised selection guidelines
-reinstitute interest groups and set guidelines for them
-reinstitute intake with well-defined PLEDGING guidelines
-TRAIN sorors/frats to perform pledging properly
-lobby to update the 'law' regarding hazing
-educate the public about what is RIGHT about pledging

Just some thoughts but I don't know how they can be implemented in this litigious society.



------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[DoggyStyle82]

Obviously you have a point to espouse and nothing will change your mind. If you don't want to pledge to be in a fraternity, the Boy Scouts, 100 Black Men, Urban League, or whatever civic organization, is always on the lookout for men to participate. If what it takes to get into a fraternity is not for you, look elsewhere.

[the411]

So, Hudson-- What are YOU proposing?

Since (let you tell it) those of us on the inside don't have the answers, I'm interested in what YOU think is the best way. Sounds to me like you're saying that, no matter what is done, there will still be extremities. We could give "hazers" the death penalty, but the "hazee" will still have been hurt. So, what are you suggesting we do, short of somehow programming members to be "Stepford Greeks" who all act and think exactly alike?

You've stated the obvious-- that no matter what the rules and laws, s%$@ may still happen. So, unless YOU have the secret formula and are willing to share it, then Doggy is right-- the solution is for you and other GDIs to simply not join if you are that concerned about the negatives of pledging.

And I'm Out...

the411

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by Hudson:

I know some of you will say, well punish those who haze, but, thats dealing with the problem after the fact. You can punish a member through suspension or expulsion, but you are still left with a pledgee who is physical hurt or, well, dead.



But that is the way it is now. The change to MIP has not ended violent hazing. Some argue it has increased it and in some places encoraged it. We still deal with it after the fact. Allowing pledging does not prevent prosecution of hazers.

[Hudson]

In response to the411, I think things should stay the way it is right now. Only because it seems like the only way to protect the Fraternity or Sorority from lawsuits and shifts the blame, legally, on the individual members who choose to go againts the policies set out by each organization.

[Hudson]

To DoggyStyle82, Well knowing how much shame and ridicule I will receive from doing the MIP, I most likely will not pledge a greek-lettered organization. Good news for you.

[Hudson]

I dont believe changing things again will work either. You can end, revamp, change the laws, reinstitute the pledge process all you want. When you finally formulate a process that is pleasing to everyone, you will still have those "exceptions" who will haze and beat the sh*& out of a line. Yes you can have a graduate representative there, but he/she cannot be there at all times and there may even be a "bad" graduate representative who's down with the beat down.

I know some of you will say, well punish those who haze, but, thats dealing with the problem after the fact. You can punish a member through suspension or expulsion, but you are still left with a pledgee who is physical hurt or, well, dead.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

i actually think that the 411's examples of how MIP can be revamped and reshaped to include not only the new system but aspects of the old system is basically showing how those who are "mad hazers" can be eliminated.

the thing that seems to have happened is that with the inception of MIP those who are in the organization (strictly my opinion and not direct knowledge considering i'm not a member of any GLO) have felt that they have no control over the process. the process that many have respected over time has been lost due to someone elses grave errors. those folx who were involved in the deaths and serious injuries of pledges were not trained in the ways of pledging vs. hazing.

there is my brotha a difference.

hazing will never unify but pledging always does!

if there was a training session put in place for greeks before they take on a line. if the guidelines are set before them...in black and white....with no exceptions. and the session that explains the difference between hazing and pledging is outlined in detail and taking with great care to make everyone involved completely aware of the details then there will most likely be fewer deaths and injuries.
of course the process that is put forth must involve, as i said before, aspects of the "old skool" way and the MIP.

has the MIP reduced deaths? maybe. But has the MIP encouraged brother/sisterhood...i would argue not really. even people who are sorely against the "old" way are quick to shout that they were initiated before intake.

it is sad Hudson...but renegades exist in every organization and organized movement. no matter how many times you say "don't do that" some fool will do it anyway. but that is when it is up to the national organization to make sure that person is held accountable for their actions. and i would even argue that if a melding of "old skool" and MIP were made the members of the organization would be more likely to discipline a renegade on their own.

i would offer you (Hudson) a really great site that discusses the reasons for pledging. in my opinion it is one of the best sources that i have read that outlines the ancient inception of a "pledge process". The Temple of Blue (http://3n1promo.com/temple/p5.html)
for me the difference became crystal clear. my understanding of, marching in formation, learning understanding embracing the history of an organization through training sessions, wearing matching outfits, going through the final intense week that is often referred to as "hell week" etc., was completely enhanced.

it is true that there are problems with the current system. and admittedly because there was seemingly no limit on the "old skool" way of things there were problems as well. but if there was some revamping of a system that for many is remembered with the kind of love one can only feel for family...then the deaths and the injuries will cease.

peace

[D.E.M.4's]

I have read through most of the threads. I must say that I am proud of everyone on this site for speaking their mind and having the guts to say all of this on the internet.

My question is did the Omegas and Deltas or any of NPHC for that matter, get their rights back to have a "pledge process" again or is this a "hypothetical topic?" I ask because in my sorority we are put on moritorium for even saying the word "Pledging" (first hand experience.) I will understand if you can not answer but I just thought I would ask.

[PlainJane]

I'm not a member but I thought I could share a story. My father is a member of a fraternity. He pledge in the sixties and without going into details he did say that his process was physical but not brutal. He went on to say that he did become disturbed by the amount of violence that seems to have increased over the years from lines he has witnessed.He mentioned something about the younger generation become more susceptible to committ violence today. What I'm trying to say that even though you may not agree with MIP, maybe its a blessing in disguise and you may not even realize it.

[DoggyStyle82]

PLAINJANE:

Eveyones opinion is relative. I'm sure members 20 years before your father may have thought his pledge experience to be "excessive". The point is, is that there should be some define-able middle ground and not the elimination of time honored traditions and legitimate processes. As I have stated before, the increase in hazing has been excaserbated by intake, not muted.

[PlainJane]

Thats true too.

[Dvus4ever]

First, I would like to give respect to anyone that had the heart to become greek (regardless of how). But, I do understand the animosity stemming from the differences of the way some becomes a member. However, I do not believe anyone should be criticized. Once you become a member (i.e. family) of a greek organization, you are just that . . . family. A brother or sister. Not a step-sister or step-brother so to speak. I am not greek, but I am seeking my membership through grad chapter. And I have definitely been "told" about how I should have pledged. I have my reasons just like everyone else does. I however, have faith and trust in the greek community and believe that regardless of how someone is admitted that person is thoroughly investigated. To criticize because of the way they were admitted only criticizes the organizations. Why? If someone is paper or pledge . . . you . . . the greek still has to make the final decision as to whether that person becomes part of your family.

[pebbles_6]

Coleman Love to my Bruhs, Big OO-OOP to my Sorors...I guess my question or concern is how do we as Sorors, and Bruhs bridge the gap amongst ourselves? I mean, I PLEDGED alum chapter. Some of the processes might have changed in accordance with MIP but nonetheless, the things I keep hearing "old heads" saying they went through, I did too. And it hurts anytime someone (Soror or other Greek) consistently perpetuates the myth that those who cross through MIP are "not real" or "paper". I know this topic is probably discussed til people are blue in the face, but if we want progression collectively, we need to stand united in the BOND of Delta (Omega). Instead of making distinctions about who's real or not on the basis of intake, turn instead and look at who's financial. Look at who is still getting up at 5am for service projects and leading by example. Spend time trying to reactivate the inactive to the goals of our orgs. How do I feel about the MIP? I can only speak for what I experienced and I know that for a lifetime, my ls's and myself will be able to recall our shared trek to Deltahood and reflect on our humbling experiences. And that (as MasterCard states) is priceless. But if revamping the intake process is what it takes to get us on one accord as far as accepting one another as equals within our OWN orgs, I'm all for it, but I don't think that is as necessary as it is just for some to face the the wo(man) in the mirror and broaden their way of thinking. Just my .13 cents.

------------------
"To DST, I will forever and always be true"

[reddnhott2020]

Hello
I am not greek merely an aspirant. But, I want to know if the greek world is so agaisnt, the MIP, and some members may not show "love" those who come in the "new school" was, are those interested persons supposed to not attempt entrance into the organization of their dreams, because of the MIP. Are those persons supposed to MAKE their BSs and BBs bring them in "ol skool". The persons interested have no control over the process, so why should they be treated any differently? I understand the merit of the "Ol Skool" methods, that is where you gain your sense of loyalty to the organization and to your future fellow members, and that process is what differentiates the nine organizations, but can a mere interestee due about the protocol?

What would be a good compromise?

[Lone Dog]

I know this topic has been hashed to death, but let me put my 11 in.....

Whether you pledge Que or come into Omega via MIP....you will pledge. Let me explain, say a prospective starts intake on a Sunday and is made a member the following Saturday. As soon as he puts on that Que 'nalia, or as soon as he lets out a ROOO in public.... someone will be in his grill chargin' him. Lord help him if he doesn't display his Principles or know his info. It's SOOO HARD to be Omega! He will earn those letters and constantly prove he deserves to wear them, or else he'll be stripped of them, as well as his pride. Omega men are brave and courageous men who fear no one or nothing but God Himself.

So, MIP can come in if they want, but if they reach for their financial card when a bruh is challenging them, he'll be receiving some uplift. Period. It's that simple. There are many ways TO Omega, but only one way INTO Omega....blood, sweat, and tears.

I will shut up after I say this: I was always told "It's harder to BE a bruh than it is to BECOME a bruh." And how true that rings. Think about this, you can't haze a member, only a prospective. So once you're in, whatcha gonna do?

Omega is NOT a violent frat. It wasn't founded on that and it doesn't condone it. HOWEVER, whether you came in MIP or pledged, don't disrespect your self or the frat by not exemplifying the qualities of an Omega man and not knowing detailed information on the very organization that you CHOSE to join. IT doesn't end when you cross the sands to Omega... it's just the beginning... PLEASE, whoever you are, don't come into this frat lukewarm and not ready to work.

TRUST ME, the road INTO Omega is HARD. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it. Be out or stay home...the choice is yours. Because as soon as you hit door, them tenacious porch dogs will get ta barkin'....know enough to avoid the bite.

ROOOOOOO


------------------
T.J.
Da Nasty Lone Dog
1-Phi Omicron-SMR '00

[ShakespareDST]

Well said soror!

Originally posted by pebbles_6:
Coleman Love to my Bruhs, Big OO-OOP to my Sorors...I guess my question or concern is how do we as Sorors, and Bruhs bridge the gap amongst ourselves? I mean, I PLEDGED alum chapter. Some of the processes might have changed in accordance with MIP but nonetheless, the things I keep hearing "old heads" saying they went through, I did too. And it hurts anytime someone (Soror or other Greek) consistently perpetuates the myth that those who cross through MIP are "not real" or "paper". I know this topic is probably discussed til people are blue in the face, but if we want progression collectively, we need to stand united in the BOND of Delta (Omega). Instead of making distinctions about who's real or not on the basis of intake, turn instead and look at who's financial. Look at who is still getting up at 5am for service projects and leading by example. Spend time trying to reactivate the inactive to the goals of our orgs. How do I feel about the MIP? I can only speak for what I experienced and I know that for a lifetime, my ls's and myself will be able to recall our shared trek to Deltahood and reflect on our humbling experiences. And that (as MasterCard states) is priceless. But if revamping the intake process is what it takes to get us on one accord as far as accepting one another as equals within our OWN orgs, I'm all for it, but I don't think that is as necessary as it is just for some to face the the wo(man) in the mirror and broaden their way of thinking. Just my .13 cents.

[the411]

I like you, Lone Dog! You a-ight wit me!

OOP-ROO!

And I'm Out!



------------------
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by the411:
So, with that in mind, do you think it's possible for someone who wasn't pledged to pledge someone else? In other words, what about those chapters that are by-the-book (i.e. paper, cat, skaters, etc.) and ostracized by local collegiate chapters because of it? How can pledging become the new chapter trend if no one in the chapter has pledged? I know of chapters like this, but it's difficult to know whether or not someone who isn't a part of the chapter can step in to help out when the current chapter members are anti-pledging.




I just wanted to reply real quick:
I do NOT think someone who didn't pledge can pledge someone else. If you did not pledge, you can only IMAGINE what a pledge process should be...or you can only act on what you see or hear from others. This is how many chapters get in trouble...you can't do to others what was not done to you---chances are, you will take it too far and completely screw something up and/or the process will be a weak immitation.
If you do not have a COMPLETE view of pledging, and just listen to what others say, you will have no clue. As we all know, EVERYONE thinks they pledged, you will rarely find a Greek who says they didn't pledge---yes, more than half of them are lying, but....
If members of a chapter are anti-pledging, it is almost impossible for others to try to step in. Not pledging, or never being afforded the opportunity to pledge, are completely different from being "anti-pledging." *It's a shame, but we can't save the world*
Part of what MIP was trying to get rid of was the ridicule of newly inducted members who are made to feel as they skated or didn't pledge---to make processes more uniform---and cut down on hospital visits, too I guess. This isn't the remedy---but, this was part of the intention. Alright, enough rambling for Chaos.

[TLAW]

Though I don't mean to rehash an old topic, I have to put in my two cents worth; As someone peering on the outside in, I think I have some pertinent thoughts on the matter.
While surfing, I read about an issue concerning one of the Divine Nine orgs. The fraternity had been suspended for "hazing"; upon reinstatement of the charter, the Faculty Advisor oversaw the Intake process of a couple of new undergrads with high GPAs. Most of you can guess what happened next.
Of course, the old heads had crossed a couple guys underground.
They went via MIP too. Now, you had a fraternity with some pledging, and others who were MIP'd. You guys can only guess at the friction caused.
It all came to a head when a couple of the "reals" accosted a "paper" and tore his naila off his back - in public! The two "reals" were then kicked out of the frat for disrespecting a fellow member in public.
Most of you probably have heard of this story; some may even have seen this played out on your respective yards. It is a sad state of affairs.
I am not going to argue the merits of pledging vs Intake; however I will say that pledging can be a safe process. A little hardship never hurt anybody. I went to a military school overseas, and the rites of passage to seniority were rigorous. Straight hazing. We hated it, but the bonds live forever.
Now, when people die during pleging, we have to wonder if we've gone too far, and we shouldn't have to wonder too long.
At my school, what happened above is about to replayed almost scene to scene. We are about to reactivate one of our orgs, and the word is that some men have already been through a pledge process a couple of years previously.
I don't know if it not getting respect for reasons we don't have control over is worth it. Am I wrong for seriously not considering exhibiting interest for these reasons? Would you join an organization if knew there were underground pledges, and you had to do MIP? Am I being overly realistic?

[CrucialCrimson]

I know portions of this thread are old, but I had to comment on a couple of points - first the comment that hundreds of thousands of greeks were made each year with few incidents is RIDICULOUS - there are only a few hundred thousand greeks around, so how do you figure that so many were being made annually without serious incident. Another issue is that the dawn of MIP was not the demise of the pledge process - it was gradulally being degraded and bastardized - that was the biggest nail in the coffin in my opinion. Finally, I would love a process that was longer and slightly more challenging and open than the current three weeks, but I don't see it happening any time soon. My biggest complaint about MIP is the ridiculously large "lines" that are being made at the collegiate and alumnae level; as well as the alumnae chapters that seem to use intake as a biennial fundraiser, with no goal of or effort towards membership development. There are just too many people who have letters on their chest, but nothing in their hearts and you can't even really call them check writers because they don't even stay financial. I also think that it should be easier for a chapter to decline someone during the process as it is easier to be accepted for intake (relatively speaking).

[TLAW]

Another issue is that the dawn of MIP was not the demise of the pledge process - it was gradulally being degraded and bastardized - that was the biggest nail in the coffin in my opinion. Finally, I would love a process that was longer and slightly more challenging and open than the current three weeks, but I don't see it happening any time soon. My biggest complaint about MIP is the ridiculously large "lines" that are being made at the collegiate and alumnae level; as well as the alumnae chapters that seem to use intake as a biennial fundraiser, with no goal of or effort towards membership development. There are just too many people who have letters on their chest, but nothing in their hearts and you can't even really call them check writers because they don't even stay financial.


I agree with your comment, and wish some changes could be made. But, as I detailed earlier, the conflicts continue.

[TLAW]

Crucial, forgive me, but I didn't do the quote thing proprerly, so part of your post may seem like mine. My bad... didn't mean to plagrialize! LOL!!!

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by CrucialCrimson
I know portions of this thread are old, but I had to comment on a couple of points - first the comment that hundreds of thousands of greeks were made each year with few incidents is RIDICULOUS - there are only a few hundred thousand greeks around, so how do you figure that so many were being made annually without serious incident. .

I was including white greeks as well, but you're right, it should be thousands.

[The Original Ape]

Wazzup Doggy, and the rest of yall.

I feel what you sayin' about the "new wave" greek attitude. I crossed undergrad "in the 80s"; and I see the difference in the way these younguns' think too. That's the way it is if they're made by people without purpose, or if they ain't "made" at all.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by The Original Ape
Wazzup Doggy, and the rest of yall.

I feel what you sayin' about the "new wave" greek attitude. I crossed undergrad "in the 80s"; and I see the difference in the way these younguns' think too. That's the way it is if they're made by people without purpose, or if they ain't "made" at all.

Thanks for the visit OA. Being that we are contemporaries, we share many of the same viewpoints. Recent events continue to reveal the truth in our sentiments.

[Lone Dog]

Interesting topic..... wish I had been around when the bulk of the posting was taking place.
Well, have a seat and get comfortable....I got a lot on my mind:

First I have a question....
Does ANYBODY, ANYBODY AT ALL, know someone who has said, "Yeah, I'm a paper soror/frat."??? I haven't been in the frat for long, just under two years, but I have never heard anyone from any organization admit to it. MIP has been in place for over ten years now, yet there is not one paper frat or soror to be found. YEAH RIGHT! If I struck a cord with you, don't lie about your process...that's one sure way to be thought of as suspect, amongst other things. Bruhs like to call it cat....

Secondly, I pledged at a grad chapter. Now my pledge experience was much different from an undergrad's. I was pledged by people who had wives, kids, bills, and jobs to be concerned about. Their scope of responsibility extended far beyond going to class and spending the rest of their time "making lines." HOWEVER, it wasn't easy. I can promise you that I was "in the process" longer than 98% of folks. I didn't have the advantage of line brothers to sustain me because they all quit, and I was the only one to cross. Blood, sweat, and tears??? I know them very well. But as soon as people hear grad chapter...they think paper. And I am an adamant proponent of the fact that the two are not synomous. (easy bruh...stop venting...)

Lastly, I can't speak for any other org, but as I was always taught, "It's easier to become a bruh, than it is to be a bruh." If you came in paper, you're not home free..... by the definition of hazing, you can't haze a member, only a prosepective. So what are you gonna do once you're in, and the heat gets turned up? If you pledged, you'll know what to do, if not....then you'll learn.

I road-tripped two days after I crossed...a thousand miles away from my chapter, and I went alone......no brand, no financial card...just me and my process..... IT GOT HOT...It was supposed to, I was a neo. BUT at the end of the night, bruhs were buying me drinks at a club and setting me out. LIKE THEY SHOULD! If it were a "weekend-wonder" in my shoes that night????? Five words for ya...the Cardinal Principle of UPLIFT.

The moral of the story is.... if you long to be a real and true member of your organization, then become one. Regardless of how you are brought in, the hardest part isn't the way you came in, but what you do once you're in. And real members of your organization will teach you all you need to know to be a contributing element and build bridges of your own. BUT, it won't be easy.... and it ain't supposed to be. Anything worth having is worth some inconvenience and work. And if you don't agree.... don't come to Omega, nor any other of the orgs in the NPHC, because workers is what we all need, not folks who take the easy route in all they do.

enough of my rambling......
ROOOOOOOO

[suntzu1963]

I am a member of another NPHC fraternity (Iota Phi Theta), but I feel what you said Lone Dog COMPLETELY. We need to continue to educate and be upstanding members of our communities. How can we be when we discredit members of our community who are trying to meet common goals? (that stands for brothers and sisters in all organizations both amongst their own and in relation to their interaction with other organizations)

To all viewers: Stand with pride and honor your founders in a manner befitting your organization.

And Lone Dog, men of Iota echo your statement with our own.....

"It takes a few weeks to pledge, but it takes a lifetime to be a brother"

That phrase is heard time and time again within the Brotherhood of Iota Phi Theta and it is one of our rallying points. Although it is slightly outdated by the fact that Iota Phi Theta has moved away from "pledging" to a "Brotherhood Intake Process", the spirit is still the same. Quite simply, the process you undergo before becoming a Brother is secondary to the responsibility you accept once you become a Brother.

*taken from the Iota Phi Theta National Website*


Much luv and God bless Lone Dog, Omega Psi Phi, and all GLO's doing something positive for their communities, their members, and most importantly our Heavenly Father.

[the411]

Originally posted by Lone Dog
...don't lie about your process...that's one sure way to be thought of as suspect, amongst other things. Bruhs like to call it cat....

I am really feeling you, Frat! There are so many people who let their insecurity get the best of them and, as a result, feel the need to pretend to have undergone a difficult pledgeship. The outcome of this perpetration is ALWAYS negative for the pretenders. Fact is, if you didn't pledge, there's NO WAY you can pretend to have done so! What would you even know to pretend about? I say be true to yourself and prove yourself through the fruits of your labor as a member of the org.

Originally posted by Lone Dog I was pledged by people who had wives, kids, bills, and jobs to be concerned about... HOWEVER, it wasn't easy....

Bruh, let me tell 'ya--from what I know, pledging Omega grad ain't even close to a cake-walk! Contrary to the popular notion--that it's easy to go grad--it's quite often those older (ultra-old-skool) Sorors/Frat who bring the loudest thunder! TRUST! They are the ones who pledged when pledging was a year-long, above ground, legal process! While they understand the rationale behind MIP, most are still advocates of traditional pledging and they know exactly what strategies to use to play and win the game, thus providing in-coming members with a process with which they will be PROUD and TIGHT and TRUE.

Originally posted by Lone Dog And real members of your organization will teach you all you need to know to be a contributing element and build bridges of your own. BUT, it won't be easy.... and it ain't supposed to be. Anything worth having is worth some inconvenience and work. And if you don't agree.... don't come to Omega,

As for members teaching you what you need to know... well, unfortunately, there are some neos who don't seem to wanna to learn! I have pulled aside some MIP neos who told me straight up, "I got my letters now, so I don't care." I knew a "duly initiated member of DST" who didn't even know who I was talking about when I said Frank Coleman. :eek: When I tried to check her, she just said "Whatever!" :rolleyes: and walked away. I know greeks who are clueless as to what Invictus is and who have to desire to learn about it. What do we do about these folks? :confused:

You've touched on a major problem. There are SO FEW prospects who value the HARD way and SO MANY who want letters handed to them on a Gerber baby platter! That's where the REAL separation is! It's not about old skool vs. MIP, because we all know that s**t still goes on. The thing is, we're getting more and more folks who don't want to earn and work for their membership! What happens when you have a line of 10 and 3 are committed to EARNING their letters, but the other 7 are willing to scream "I was hazed" if a member so much as looks at 'em in an intimidating manner? I'll tell ya what happens-- you end up with a split line! That's not what brotherhood/sisterhood is aboue, which is why many orgs have so much drama to contend with. I must say that Omega is perhaps THE BEST example of family-hood in the Divine Nine, because, for the most part, fellas don't even step to the Bruhs without the expectation that Blood, Sweat, and Tears are required! The few who walk in expecting some Camp Snoopy activities usually just drop out and keep their mouths shut. Yes, there are exceptions--every org has someone who couldn't cut it, and instead of bowing out gracefully (or like a man), they run and tell and everything falls apart for everyone. Why ruin someone else's chances just because YOU can't stand the heat? Why get a chapter suspended just because YOU can't be apart of it? Personally, I have more respect for people who quit, but stay silent than I do for the quitters who squeal.

It's all just so crazy!

And I'm Out!

[Jody]

To the men of Omega, as I said to you my last week of PLEDGING, Good Evening most noble Greeks. As I approach 20 years of having 20 pearls I marvel about the changes in greekdom that have occured. One of the things I find most interesting is the fact an issue that I feel is most appropriately discussed within the confines of our respective organizations is held in an open forum. How can anyone who is not a member have an opinion about a process, that quite frankly, is none of their business. To my fellow Greeks, is the best way for a discussion regarding an issue that is near and dear to OUR HEARTS?

Just the thought of an almost old school AKA.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Jody
To the men of Omega, as I said to you my last week of PLEDGING, Good Evening most noble Greeks. As I approach 20 years of having 20 pearls I marvel about the changes in greekdom that have occured. One of the things I find most interesting is the fact an issue that I feel is most appropriately discussed within the confines of our respective organizations is held in an open forum. How can anyone who is not a member have an opinion about a process, that quite frankly, is none of their business. To my fellow Greeks, is the best way for a discussion regarding an issue that is near and dear to OUR HEARTS?

Just the thought of an almost old school AKA.

Jody, the difference is that people, GDIs got to see you pledge. Outsiders saw you walk in line, greet in public, dress alike, and they knew who was on line before the probate. There was no mystery, no shroud of secrecy about the process. Everyone knew what went on. Now, its anybodies guess as to what goes on and that is what causes problems. The confusion is within everyone. I do agree that non-greeks should not have an opinion on what does or does not constitute a "process", but an exchange of thoughts and ideas never hurt anyone. Personally, I don't care who is looking, I will always extol the virtues of my process (without revealing too much of course).

BTW, I have seen old school AKAs pledge. According to todays rules, Coretta Scott King could be brought up on hazing charges. I have seen Ivies marching in line, dressed in green tams and tan trench coats greet her in public, in unison, in front of an auditorium of 5000 people and then made to serenade her. Of course this was done in the 80's and was not considered hazing. See the confusion?

[the411]

Originally posted by Jody
One of the things I find most interesting is the fact an issue that I feel is most appropriately discussed within the confines of our respective organizations is held in an open forum. How can anyone who is not a member have an opinion about a process, that quite frankly, is none of their business.

I feel where you're coming from, but I've gotta agree with my Bruh. I think it behooves GDIs to know what the conflict is. No one is divulging any details about their org's MIP, but rather, discussing the ISSUES that have derived from its implementation. Since we can't change the process, we are forced to just work with it or around it. Personally, I think people who are considering membership NEED to be aware of OUR feelings about MIP. I've found that people who aren't reading/hearing these discussions are pursuing membership with some highly unrealistic notions; as a result, they end up in 1 of 2 categories:

1. Their PRE-crossing experiences are shocking and traumatic :eek: (if they PLEDGED UG), leading to squealing, law suits, suspensions, negative publicity, etc...

OR

2. Their POST-crossing experiences are disappointing :( and/or maddening :mad: (if they only did MIP), resulting in shame, ignorance, split lines, ostracization, chapter type-casting, etc...

Fact is, everyone NEEDS to know what they might be getting into. No, we SHOULDN'T reveal classified info to non-members. But, unfortunately, the issue of PLEDGING vs MIP has been public knowledge for quite a while. Just look at the newspapers and the websites. At least we're discussing it from a member's personal perspective, rather than from the (usually biased) perspective of a journalist or offical who isn't in a BGLO at all.

And I'm Out.

[The Original Ape]

411, you hit the nail on the head. And so did e'rbody else. That's what I meant when I said "new wave ...". Most college students today are spoiled and want immediate gratification. They want it now; and they want it easy. Hell many of 'em wont even investigate the organizations to make sure they're trying to get into the one best for them. They just want to be down. And community service? They aint tryin' to hear that-let alone do it.

I think all of the orgs will pay a heavy price for the new way they're admitting new members. Alot of the college students(and some graduate people too) today WANT to be pledged; and will creep somewhere to get it done. Because of this, some of us that did it "back den" need to go back and give 'em a way to do it, with purpose and direction. Otherwise I think the orgs will begin to die.

[the411]

Originally posted by The Original Ape
Most college students today are spoiled and want immediate gratification. They want it now; and they want it easy.

SAD but TRUE. However, it eventually backfires on 'em. When they're partyin' & roadtrippin' and they either "can't hang" or they ask questions that only a PLEDGEE would know the answer to, it becomes obvious that they wear skates and meow. And, while many greeks who pledged may never say/do anything to make them feel uncomfortable or insecure, I assure you that those negative feelings will be in them anyway. When they're at a probate and the pledgees are reciting something that all PLEDGEES are expected to know when they're on line, they will feel like "Boo-Boo the Fool" when erry'body else starts reciting it along with 'em 'cuz they STILL remember it from when they pledged! And believe you me, I'm one of those folks who notices when someone is CLUELESS and ain't sayin' a word or don't even know the words to some of the most basic, universal chants out there.

On the up-side of that, I admire sorors who step to me and say, "Look, this is what my process was like, so I don't know about X, Y, or Z. Can you teach/tell me?" And like Original Ape said, there are people who want to PLEDGE and earn their letters. But of course, serious issues emerge when only 1 or 2 folks on a line fall into the latter category. When everyone else is itching to scream "HAZING!" if they get plucked with a rubberband, then there's gonna be a Split Line--and that's the total ANTITHESIS of what Brotherhood & Sisterhood represent. Nobody should want/prefer that in their chapter, I don't care what org you're in! That makes us all--the alleged elite-- look absolutely HORRIBLE. The drama and mess that results from this whole issue reflects very negatively on the entire black greek system AND on the black community as a whole. At this rate, we won't last.

Let me shut up. I'm getting way too emotional over this.

[Jody]

DoggyStyle, Soror Coretta never came to my university when I was on line but I pledged in the fall (during homecoming) so I know full well about serenading Sorors!

Geez, this is hard :( BUT, as members of the Divine Nine, I know we'll think of something and then complete our task.

[Lone Dog]

It's good that we're having this dialogue ya'll because the topic needs to be discussed throughout the NPHC. Not just the pledge process, or intake, or whatever the hell you want to call it, but also the how people behave once they get in the org. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't care how you came in. If you came in 1960 and got your ass whipped and publicly humiliated...cool, let's talk. If you came in 2002 after a weekend history lesson...ok, fine, let's talk. BUT the million dollar question (to paraphrase Janet Jackson) : WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE LATELY??? Bruh, are you financial?? Bruh, did you vote at districts and the 'Clave?? Bruh, what have you done in the community??? Bruh, do you know the frat's mandated programs?? Do you contribute to their accomplishment?? BRUH! Are you living your Cardinal Principles???

Let's be real folks....the reason some, scratch that, ALL of our orgs have the potential to be non-existant in the next few decades is not because of hazing...it's not because of how you were brought in (because there are both MIP and old school who are inactive )... It's because members are not living up to the principles and ideals that their org was founded on ... plain and simple. If greeks did that, then all these other problems wouldn't exist, or would have an insignificant effect.

The principles are NOT a goal. I'll say that again... the founding principles (and ideals) are NOT goals. They are a WAY OF LIFE. For example, if you run into a Que, he will tell you that he UPHELD the Cardinals to get into the frat. But is he UPHOLDING them? That's two different questions. And every org has members like that. Yeah, you believe in scholarship, you were in college when you pledged, or had your degree and went grad. But scholarship is not a goal...it is a way of life. So are you pursuing another degree or certificate? Are you reading books? Are you tutoring students? Are you contribuitng to scholarship funds, either monetarily or by giving your time for a fundraiser? etc., etc., etc.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE ORG LATELY? Besides, bring a lawsuit? Besides not paying dues? Besides not living up to principles? Besides not presenting a positive role model to the public? (don't get me wrong...BE OWT! but..in Ecclesiates, Solomon says there is a time and place for everything.) I mean, I know every org has a song where they sing "I'm working hard for XYZ." Ok, so you can sing or hop or step, but do you live the words you're singing??? NO? then you're CAT (these letters stand for something, the bruhs can feel me)

Team, I could go on for another 4 hours, but I'll spare ya'll my ranting. Bottom line is we need to instill in our members, and even prospectives looking to join our org, that they need not be so capricious in their decision to join. It is a lifetime committment. LIFETIME. That word in itself implies that you LIVE it ALL the TIME.
Ok, I'm done.....sh*t is deep

ROOO

[the411]

My aunt pledged PLEDGED DST :D in '68
and my mom PLEDGED AKA :eek: :rolleyes: :( :confused: :mad: in '72.
When I look at their college yearbooks, I get SO jealous, sad, and sometimes even angry because I hate that things have changed so much. In their days, being a pledgee meant being a member of a 2nd most elite, prestigious club (with the 1st being the frat/sorority itself). The movie, School Daze, doesn't come CLOSE to depicting what that "openness" was like. Passers-by were in awe of the uniformity, discipline, and comraderie of the pledgees, and even more impressed with their ability to handle their business in the classroom and in the community through the organization of their pledge clubs. But now, "candidates" (not pledgees) can't even dress alike, much less serenade publicly! We can't even get our film developed for fear that some nosy Kodak processor will call the cops if they see pics of what looks like hazing!

As a little girl, I longed to experience what my AUNT did with her duckteam--to be decked from head to toe in matching outfits (a different one each day, for whatever weather, and with appropriate accessories) designated by my Big Sisters; to immediately jump in line when I spotted my LSs across the yard after class; to delete the words "I" and "me" completely from my vocabulary; to eat in unison, and carry bricks and goody boxes, etc... All that protocol and pageantry would give me and my LSs a feeling of ONE-NESS that would endure until death. That's what I expected it to be like when I went to college. Imagine my disappoinment...

And I'm Out!

[Lone Dog]

I feel you 411....

I used to love to sit around with my dad (Que '75), and my mother (Delta '73) and listen to them relive their pledging days. I even got to see my dad try to remember a step they used to do on the yard at Shaw University.


We can't even get our film developed for fear that some nosy Kodak processor will call the cops if they see pics of what looks like hazing!

That's trips me out because my dad has pictures of him on the yard in long johns dyed gold with a bedsheet dyed purple wrapped around him, covered in food, standing in the middle of campus all day singing "I Shall Not Moved." Now-a-days, that's your ass...suspension of the chapter and of yourself from the frat. What a shame.

But let's remember, this is a new generation. The kids in college now are two generations removed from struggle. Their biggest challenge now is to drive down the street without getting a ticket for being black. Back then, the general Black public was being fire-hosed down, attacked by police and their dogs, couldn;t even eat in restaurants or use the same toilets. They knew and lived hard times. So to go through adversity during pledging was accepted. Now you have kids who grow up with Nintendo and $100 sneakers. They aren't trying to hear about all that pledging stuff. On top of that, the ones doing the pledging are their peers, who are on a power trip. Those are the ones who bring the lawsuits. I'm telling you folks....don;t be suprised in the next few years if undergrad membership is totally done away with and our orgs become for professionals only.

Part of the answer is to change how we operate to support our clientele and potential people "hired" into the frat/soror. All of our orgs are businesses. Would you work at IBM if they beat your ass in order to get the job? Probably not. I KNOW, I KNOW...it's different. But not to these kids who are interested in our orgs now. After being on the inside for so long, we need to stop and think from their perspective. Because if there are no new members, there is no org. But, I know one thing, if we don't come up with an answer, the "bustas" will....and it will lead to less orgs in the NPHC.
ROOOO

[the411]

Originally posted by Lone Dog
...don't be suprised in the next few years if undergrad membership is totally done away with and our orgs become for professionals only.

Yep! Professionals and Honoraries only.


And I'm Out!

[TLAW]

Lone Dog,
I couldn't agree more with your statement, especially your closing remarks. Let me step out on limb with you, amidst fear of being cyber-stoned, to state that I think things are a whole lot easier now. When one considers what people two generations went thru, it is easy to see that we do have it quite easy.
As far as I am concerned, joining an elite organization demands special commitment. If and when I do decide to attempt pledging (oops, I mean undergo MIP), I say bring it on. Contrary to popular opinion, would-be newer members all don't want to "pay" our way in. I have met quite a few greeks, and for those made right, I am yet to find one to refer to their pledge process negatively. So, there just might be some good in a controlled, semi-above ground pledge process, where the men charged with making new men know the difference between pledging and murder. Still, I think prospects should not be held to blame for how they enter. It is only as easy as the organization lets it to be. As for me, if I wanted it easy, I'd join a dinner club.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Lone Dog

Part of the answer is to change how we operate to support our clientele and potential people "hired" into the frat/soror. All of our orgs are businesses. Would you work at IBM if they beat your ass in order to get the job? Probably not. I KNOW, I KNOW...it's different. But not to these kids who are interested in our orgs now. After being on the inside for so long, we need to stop and think from their perspective. Because if there are no new members, there is no org. But, I know one thing, if we don't come up with an answer, the "bustas" will....and it will lead to less orgs in the NPHC.
ROOOO


Bruh, I disagree with you vehemently on this point. Omega is not a business!!!!! It is first and foremost a BROTHERHOOD!!! Now, this brotherhood has BUSINESS that it needs to handle, but I'm not recruiting members to sit on a board, handle finances, or be project leaders. I'm recruiting BROTHERS who can do those things, but realize that their first duty is to be a brother. If you choose a person who has true Omega qualities, you will find one that can handle business.

Times and people have changed throughout the 90 year history of Black Greekdom, but its only been the last 10 years that the entry process has changed (for the worse ) so that argument that we need to do something to attract this generation doesn't hold water. Membership is screwed up because we have become schizophrenic in our effort to please a hostile master instead of being true to ourselves. Because we have focused so much on what outsiders think of us (the press, lawyers, haters, white folks) we have compromised our way of life to satisfy others. When you do that, you lose your focus. Now we are businesses that look at memebership as revenue, not brothers or sisters. We microwave members and then expect them to appreciate something for a lifetime and worse, expect them to be treated as equals by those who went through Blood, Sweat, and Tears. The further God has brought you, the more you shout in Church. There is an inverse relationship between business and brotherhood. The more you have of one, the less you will have of the other. But that is the conundrum

[Lone Dog]

I see your point Doggy....

but if BLGO's ain't business, why are they incorporated? If it isn't a business, why do they have lawyers to protect their interest and have copyright laws and things of that nature? Now the concept of Omega, the ideals of Omega ARE NOT a business, nor is it for sale. I agree with you there. Omega Psi Phi is a brotherhood, unfortunately, all the members don't practice it...and it's because of them that Omega, and the other BGLOs, have turned into a business. Just ask that white lawyer in MD who makes a living suing greeks...it's big business to him.

I did not mean to imply that Omega was founded to be a business. I am saying that it has turned into one because of the laws on hazing and the lawsuits and new procedures put in place to try and "remedy" the situation.

Membership is screwed up because we have become schizophrenic in our effort to please a hostile master instead of being true to ourselves. Because we have focused so much on what outsiders think of us (the press, lawyers, haters, white folks) we have compromised our way of life to satisfy others. When you do that, you lose your focus. Now we are businesses that look at memebership as revenue, not brothers or sisters.

Regardless of the circumstances that got us to where we are, in order for the survival of our organizations, we have to attract new members, and re-activate the current members. We are working with a new set of rules, therefore, we must incorporate those rules into the recruitment of propspectives. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's the way it is. And until we put the action in motion to change it and are successful, that is the hand we're dealt. We can fold, or play through. I'm staying in the game.

ROOOO

[the411]

Originally posted by TLAW
I have met quite a few greeks, and for those made right, I am yet to find one to refer to their pledge process negatively. So, there just might be some good in a controlled, semi-above ground pledge process, where the men charged with making new men know the difference between pledging and murder.

But, that's JUST the problem--"those made right" aren't just doing MIP, but more the middle ground between it and old skool. MIP alone just can't/doesn't/won't cut it.

And, I'd have to say that, in MY opinion, things didn't start getting outta hand and uncontrolled (i.e. ultra-violent and almost deadly) until MIP was implemented! Look at the most major cases we're hearing about-- they're all very recent, wouldn't you agree? When lines go underground in an effort to maintain a traditional pledgeship, more s**t happens. And, because MIP is more than just an organizational mandate (i.e. anti-hazing is also university AND state law), our chapters are always under a microscope by SOMEBODY, making underground lines even less successful. Sure--the "candidates" may have sealed lips, but the GDIs, faculty, staff, dorm RA's, etc. are the ones who are saying: "Ya know Jerome has been lookin' kinda rough lately and his grades are slippin'. He must be pledging a frat and being hazed! I'm gonna report this!"

And, another sad reality is that a lot of orgs are bringing in some WEAK individuals--people who just want to belong, to be popular, and who have NO interest whatsoever in carrying out the mission and upholding the values of their organizations! When these kinds of people successfully undergo an underground pledgeship, their only focus becomes this: to make sure the next line goes through the same s**t they did. They don't care about the rationales and growth lessons behind the things they went through, because their focus was never really to have that org in their hearts; it was merely to have some letters on their chests! I know people who suffer from such chronic low self-esteem, that they are willing to endure ANYTHING AT ALL--from the most extreme physical to the most life-altering mental abuse--just to be able to say, "Now I'm somebody!" Imagine such a person being responsible for the intake of new members. Do you think they'd give a rat's a$$ about the severity or risks of their hazing actions? NO! They only care about that newfound "power" they have to put someone else through what they went through. Because of their low self-esteem (which never goes away, even with the letters), they need that "power" like a crackhead needs the rock. Those are the folks who go too far, and have ruined it for those of us who know how things should be done.

There has to be a PURPOSE behind the things that are done within either process--both pledging and MIP. Unfortunately, for some chapters, the secrecy of the underground process has resulted in beat-down sessions. But, what people don't know is that now HAZING (by definition of the orgs, the universities, and the states) encompasses SO MUCH MORE than physical activities! In Laymen's terms, HAZING is, quite simply: to require that a person do anything they MIGHT not be comfortable with as a means of joining an organization. Isn't it funny how this definition doesn't apply to sports, the military, marching bands, etc.? Hazing is saying: "Each of you need to wear the identical all-black outfit and shoes." What physical or mental abuse is involved in that? Yet, chapters whose "candidates" agree to do this are, by definition, having an underground line. If they did this publicly, eyebrows would be raised, conclusions drawn, and chapters investigated.

These days, because of MIP, chapters are getting reprimanded or suspended for the littlest, most trivial things (like not putting up signs about the rush/smoker) and most often, none of it qualifies as physical or mental abuse of any sort! Chapters are being told to "add" people to a line simply because someone went crying to nationals because they didn't make it. Many people in the latter category weren't even looked at by the members, much less touched, and yet they are allowed to jump on the wagon because nationals doesn't want the drama!

LONE DOG-- I agree with you about the lawyer thing. I know I'll catch hell for saying this, but, like it or not, most of our orgs have adopted MIP and anti-hazing policies for FINANCIAL PROTECTION ONLY--not because they actually give a damn about what happens to pledgees. They've adopted them in order to be protected in the COURT OF LAW and to avoid losing thousands of dollars from law suits defeats. If these orgs REALLY cared about the physical and mental HEALTH of the prospectives who pursue membership, "hazers" would automatically be in jail rather than merely suspended. Wouldn't you agree?

And I'm Out.

[TLAW]

411,
Looking from the outside in, I have to say you hit the nail smack on the head. As for the definition of hazing, I have oft wondered at the same double standard you pointed out: if we indeed were to take hazing to it's politically correct level, those lawyers making careers out of suing frats and sororities could make a whole lot more loot focusing on the military. Now, that is where you'd find hazing at hit's finest (or worst).

I was slow to mention that the fatalities that we hear of seem to be very recent because I had only recently started to pay attention to black greek life these last couple of years. I do think it quite interesting that they do seem to coincide with the inception of MIP. Though far from an expert on intake history, I daresay MIP might have unwittingly helped birth the monster it was supposed to abort.

Since I have not been fortunate enough to have seen what you guys have, I'll decline the urge to say what I really believe MIP has done on a whole. I do say this: some things are cultural, and some things are unique to us as black people. I know things change with time, but some of the very things we now mock and do fight to do away with helped us to bond and survive when the chips were stacked against us. Lest we forget, we still deal with the remnants of those chips today. If we want to do away completely with a process, it better be for a very good reason.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by TLAW

I was slow to mention that the fatalities that we hear of seem to be very recent because I had only recently started to pay attention to black greek life these last couple of years. I do think it quite interesting that they do seem to coincide with the inception of MIP. Though far from an expert on intake history, I daresay MIP might have unwittingly helped birth the monster it was supposed to abort.



TLAW

To my knowledge, there has been only one fatality since intake as a direct result of hazing. That being the Kappa pledge at SEMO in 94 0r 95. There were two deaths in the 80's related to pledging and both of those involved people with defective hearts. So in effect, there has been one death (one too many) as the direct result of physical abuse. Contrast that to 15 football players dying of heatsroke in just two years (most in high school or college). Of course, there are too many hazing related injuries. Way too many, especially from stupidity and callousness.

Thanks for bing our 1000th poster.

[Lone Dog]

If these orgs REALLY cared about the physical and mental HEALTH of the prospectives who pursue membership, "hazers" would automatically be in jail rather than merely suspended.

Interesting point you ended your comment with 411..... I wonder why that doesn't happen. Maybe because if they did jail their own member, they would admit to some wrong doing on their part. Maybe because they desire to protect their brother/sister in all things. Or maybe because it could be seen as a form of double jeopardy after the member had been prosecuted by the plaintiff. Not sure.....

But I do agree that orgs are attracting a certain kind of people, but I think it is primarily our own fault:
1) Think about it, every org in the NPHC has pretty much the same requirements: 2.5 GPA, full-time student, community-service oriented, etc. etc. So then it would seem that whoever meets these requirements, should be accepted. All of us know that isn't true, there are dozens of intangibles that SHOULD go into deciding if a member is right for their organization. But with such vague requirements, if there is someone who meets them, and they aren't accepted, they feel they have a reason to run to nationals and complain. And based on the requirements we put out, maybe their complaint is warranted.
2) The image we portray in public. I have had dudes come up to me and ask me about my frat. I have no problem with that...none at all. But when dudes approach with sh*t like, "I'm bald headed and muscular, and my girl is a Delta. I was born to be a Que!" WHAT??? Are you serious? Or something like, "I can't even imagine all the girls I'll have once I put those letters on!" " Man, those gold boots and cammies are tight! Man, Ques are just wild and crazy! I gotta be down." I get sick to my stomach just thinking about it. But then I stop to think, what image are we putting out there?? then I can see why these dudes think it's ok.
3)For some reason, a lot of organizations don't recruit. They don't pull people to the side and ask them to attend a smoker or gauge their interest in their org. A lot of folks feel like that is improper. "I ain't chasing nobody to be in my org!" Bruh, it ain't about that, it's about finding worthy men, and revealing the light of Omega to the deserving. Even our FOUNDERS DID THAT! And now you're too good to??? Spare me. So, as a result of not picking the people we want, the people who want us, choose us. And we are left picking from a crowd of folks who may not necessarily have been the ones we wanted for our org. And then weakness seeps into the fraternity/sorority. I am ALWAYS looking for good men to be a part......you can never have too many good men. I don't care what frat you are in. But WE should decide who gets an invite, not prospectives. Are ya'll feeling me here?
4) Prospectives get the idea that if they attend one organizations smoker, that they shouldn't attend others for fear of giving the wrong message to the org they're interested in. And that, too, comes from the members. There is no question that there is divisiveness in the NPHC. Some of it is in good fun, some of it ain't. But back in the day, pledge clubs would do things together. It wasn't out of the questions for one to see Lamps working with Ivies, or any of the other orgs. That fostered a spirit of unity, that carried over into the period after the pledge crossed the sands. NPHC in itself was formed to foster unity... it was formed because two frats (Que and Sigma) took the first step to address the need that all the orgs in existance at the time recognized. But you eliminate pledge clubs, and you send everything underground, and then there is no unity to be exercised. All of NPHC strives for primarily the same goal, the advancement of our people and the community in general.
5) One more thing....people, please think about the org you're joining before you join. (See above...go to ALL the interest meetings or smokers....do your research). I mean, if the organization is founded on Christian principles, then how are you going to be an atheist and join? If the hymn incorporates Jesus in it, then how are you going to be Muslim and join? That's not to say you can't join, because the orgs, as far as I know, accept all religious backgrounds. But the whole point here is to THINK about what you're joining... it ain't about hoppin and calls.

You can't answer one of the points above without addressing all of them. It's a task that has to, needs to, and better be accomplished...or things will only go downhill.

ROOOO

[the411]

One more thing from the411...

We need to keep in mind that it wasn't hazing within our NPHC orgs that lead to this mess. It was alcohol-related hazing within the traditionally white GLOs that lead to these strict anti-hazing movements and laws. Nothing we did was considered bad/wrong until those alcohol-related incidents started getting national media attention.

Do any of you know of a BGLO that hazes pledgees by poisoning them with alcohol?
:confused:

And I'm Out!

PS: Obviously, Doggy, LoneDog, and I need to write a book on this! We've already posted a few chapters here! ;)

[TLAW]

3)For some reason, a lot of organizations don't recruit. They don't pull people to the side and ask them to attend a smoker or gauge their interest in their org. A lot of folks feel like that is improper. "I ain't chasing nobody to be in my org!" Bruh, it ain't about that, it's about finding worthy men, and revealing the light of Omega to the deserving. Even our FOUNDERS DID THAT! And now you're too good to??? Spare me. So, as a result of not picking the people we want, the people who want us, choose us. And we are left picking from a crowd of folks who may not necessarily have been the ones we wanted for our org. And then weakness seeps into the fraternity/sorority. I am ALWAYS looking for good men to be a part......you can never have too many good men. I don't care what frat you are in. But WE should decide who gets an invite, not prospectives. Are ya'll feeling me here?


The logic here is quite simple: choose, or relegate yourself to being chosen. When you decide to do the latter, weakness does seep in!

[mccoyred]

Folks, I have been reading and agreeing with much of what the 'old skool' is saying, having lived it and all. :D

However, I do want to say that I have been guilty of the 'we don't recruit' frame of mind. I think that it has worked in the past but in these 'interesting times' we need to look at other approaches.

Unfortunately, many educated, hard-working brothers and sisters are scared-off by the specter of hazing and many of the negativities we portray. It is incumbent on us as members to strive to portray the positive in all we do but specifically to encourage those who we would deem worthy to look more closely at our organizations. We should invite them to activities and encourage them to do their research, even invite them to our informational meetings.

I don't think we need to recruit off the street but if we see someone for whom we would be proud to 'write their letter' or 'sponsor them', and all the heavy responsibility it entails, then we should step out on faith and encourage them.

However, we do need to be mindful that they must seek the Light as they are. Meaning that it is their task to be accepted, NOT OURS. I have seen cases where the sponsor has taken rejection of 'their' candidate personally and caused needless trouble as a result. We can only provide them the tools and encouragement, the rest is up to them.

It is sad to say that just as in any other circumstance, people fail to practice moderation and either practice the totally 'hands off' approach or take too much responsibility for 'their' candidate.

Keep up the great dialogue, peeps.

[DoggyStyle82]

LONE DOG

You make some good points Bruh and your observations are pretty much in line with this post-apocalyptic (post -intake) world. All of the negatives that you note are either because of or has been excaserbated by the lack of a real, public pledge process

1. Membership is not guaranteed to anyone. That is why you had to pledge. People think that because that is what intake rules have created. Since you don't have to pledge, all you need is the minimum requirements to be accepted.


2. Image: Bruh, its been the same since the inception of the Frat. If you read the Dreer, the Bruhs have always drawn men to it for reasons other than the Cardinal Principles and more for its superficial powers. That is why "selection" is important. It doesn't matter who is drawn to you, it matters whom you select and how they are then molded into the "proper" fraternal culture. I'm 100% against that whole "wrestling culture" but that is an outgrowth of intake as well

3. Recruitment: Trick question. Yes, the founders identified their first induction class, but that is what you do with a start-up. You recruit by being what other men seek. By being a campus and community leader, by being the epitome of Manhood and Scholarship. That's what I saw and that is what I put out as a member. Its ok to invite people to interest meetings or suggest they give the frat some consideration, but Omegas are special people. The 8 vs. the 80. Thats why Omega seeks no man.

4. Hell no. If you tried someone else, step off. Omegas are unique. If you've considered someone else, there is no need to step to us. We are no one's second choice or something that needs to be re-considered. The thing that seperates all Omega men is that that is all they ever wanted to be. No one else is even a thought. That is where enthusiasm is born. If you just want to be greek, sample them all. But if you want to be a Bruh, there are no options. Maybe in this day of watered down intake, all frats become indistinguishable and maybe candidates need to research everybody, but I'm going to stay old school on this point. Omega shines in everything. If that isn't good enough, you don't need to come back after checking out everyone else.

5. If you can't be part of an interest club, then a pledge club, what do you have to go on but the superficial. When I was an undergrad, orgs did not recruit by winning the most step shows or having the bomb party strolls, or most unique call, or signing all the time, or having the most creative probate. You simply got to know the people who made up the org and become a part of the org culture while trying to become a member. Damn a stroll or a hand-sign or a call, but thats all freshman get to see.

As far as your conclusion, we are already at the bottom. I lived Black Greekdom in much better days than this.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by mccoyred
Folks, I have been reading and agreeing with much of what the 'old skool' is saying, having lived it and all. :D

However, I do want to say that I have been guilty of the 'we don't recruit' frame of mind. I think that it has worked in the past but in these 'interesting times' we need to look at other approaches.

Unfortunately, many educated, hard-working brothers and sisters are scared-off by the specter of hazing and many of the negativities we portray. It is incumbent on us as members to strive to portray the positive in all we do but specifically to encourage those who we would deem worthy to look more closely at our organizations. We should invite them to activities and encourage them to do their research, even invite them to our informational meetings.



Agreed, but do you want someone who did not seek your org to get it easier than you did? Will they be as enthusiastic?, Hardworking? As omni-present as DST is, if someone wanted to be down, they woould. If they know you and you are a good representative of Delta, then why would they assume that they would be hazed or that there was something terrible to be afraid of? If I just wanted to belong to a public service org that had no membership requirements, I would be in Concerned Black Men. However, I wanted to be a Que, which is a unique Brotherhood and which had a different expectation of how to become a member. If the demands of becoming a member are too much for you, we don't want you. Our way of life doesn't fit everyone. That is what makes us special. If not, we will become indistinguishable as the Divine Nine is rapidly becoming. The orgs are watered down as they are.

[mccoyred]

Au contraire, mon frere! I agree that the process today is wwwaaayyy to abbreviated and undemanding. However, one soror cannot 'make' a Delta (by vote nor process) so the person has to feel comfortable with the chapter through which she wishes to seek Delta, not just her 'sponsor'.

As I have indicated in other discussions, I would like to see more stringent membership requirements, not necessarily in terms of GPA but in those subjective areas like good character, sisterliness and high ideals. If you are selecting good people who are willing to work, they will gladly be 'pledged' to show their committment. Those who are not willing to pledge are overwhelmingly not willing to work.

The specter of hazing looms because noone wants to go to jail. If someone allow themselves to be subjected to what today is considered hazing, they can be barred for life from Delta. If the process was more like pledging, then they would know exactly what to expect and adapt themselves to that expectation or seek scholarship, sisterhood or service elsewhere.



Originally posted by DoggyStyle82


Agreed, but do you want someone who did not seek your org to get it easier than you did? Will they be as enthusiastic?, Hardworking? As omni-present as DST is, if someone wanted to be down, they woould. If they know you and you are a good representative of Delta, then why would they assume that they would be hazed or that there was something terrible to be afraid of? If I just wanted to belong to a public service org that had no membership requirements, I would be in Concerned Black Men. However, I wanted to be a Que, which is a unique Brotherhood and which had a different expectation of how to become a member. If the demands of becoming a member are too much for you, we don't want you. Our way of life doesn't fit everyone. That is what makes us special. If not, we will become indistinguishable as the Divine Nine is rapidly becoming. The orgs are watered down as they are.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by mccoyred
Au contraire, mon frere! I agree that the process today is wwwaaayyy to abbreviated and undemanding. However, one soror cannot 'make' a Delta (by vote nor process) so the person has to feel comfortable with the chapter through which she wishes to seek Delta, not just her 'sponsor'.

As I have indicated in other discussions, I would like to see more stringent membership requirements, not necessarily in terms of GPA but in those subjective areas like good character, sisterliness and high ideals. If you are selecting good people who are willing to work, they will gladly be 'pledged' to show their committment. Those who are not willing to pledge are overwhelmingly not willing to work.

The specter of hazing looms because noone wants to go to jail. If someone allow themselves to be subjected to what today is considered hazing, they can be barred for life from Delta. If the process was more like pledging, then they would know exactly what to expect and adapt themselves to that expectation or seek scholarship, sisterhood or service elsewhere.



Essentially, I agree with everything that you say.

[the411]

Originally posted by mccoyred
...I would like to see more stringent membership requirements, not necessarily in terms of GPA but in those subjective areas like good character, sisterliness and high ideals.

Gotta disagree with ya, Soror! I'm a FIRM believer in a 3.0 GPA for DST membership (I am ONLY talking about DST's standards, so other greeks, don't get offended). I don't buy into that "a C at X school is like an A at Y school." A scholar is a scholar is a scholar, and good SCHOLARSHIP should be the goal of ALL college students, and ESPECIALLY of the greeks! How can we call our orgs "elite" when we aren't accepting ONLY the above-average students. Academics is what comes FIRST when we're dealing with collegiates, right? We don't (shouldn't) go to college to pledge, we should go with the goal of graduating!

I know girls who have to STRUGGLE for the 2.5 :eek: . In My opinion, pledging with a boarderline GPA like that should be the LAST thing on their agenda! So many people's GPAs fall when they're on-line, and I don't think a 2.5 can afford to slip! Yet, we have greeks walking around (all big and proud) on academic probabtion or who aren't in school and never even got a degree! Is this the example we want to set when we talk about the importance of SCHOLARSHIP--barely making a 2.5 just to pledge?!?!?

Our Founders strived for and achieved academic excellence during a time when blacks and women were catching HELL all over the nation. I know things aren't all hunky-dory in our world today, but compared to what our Founders and older sorors had to endure when they were in school, sistas these days have it way too easy to be STRUGGLING for a 2.5! The focus should be on pulling up that GPA for the pursuit of academic excellence, not for gettin' some letters!

Same thing with community service. Girls buss' their a$$es doing JUST ENOUGH community service to get an acceptable letter to accompany their DST application packet! I know people who've never even DONE the service-- they just got the hook-up from someone they know who works for Red Cross or Habitat or what have you. These are the same kinds of people who, after they cross, are only concerned with partying, road-trippin,' and the up-coming step-show! None of them continue to do community service for and by themselves--and IF they do anything after they cross, it's only in the name of DST. If the chapter weren't going to work on a Habitat house on Saturday, they wouldn't be going! Why should she continue doing individual, self-motivated service? Once she got that community service letter, she was done!

I agree that we need to raise the bar. However, we can't raise some and not others--we NEED to make it more competitive across the board! I am much more interested in the young lady who's OBVIOUSLY committed to service, is an active leader, AND is able to maintain a 3.0+ in the midst of her extra-curriculars. Delta Women have always been multi-taskers who are successful in all they do. Why is it that we're now accepting women who do 1 or 2 things well, but SICK in other areas? Why do we make excuses for these people? That is SO NOT what the real world is all about! Do you think HARVARD is gonna let a student with low grades and a low LSAT into its law school just because of the kind of undergad school he/she went to? HELL NO! My cousin graduated from Yale with a 3.6 and an exceptional LSAT score (she got into Columbia, Duke, Georgetown, NC, and UPenn, just to name a few), but Harvard still turned her down!

If you have a standard, you need to stick to it! This is how you do away with LARGE LINES and how you maintain your good reputation and that proud feeling amongst your members. Now, it seems more weight is put on the amount of sh*t people endure during pledging, rather than the honor of even making line! That's because the standard is so low, that meeting the minimum criteria isn't anything to boast about anymore--it's about how much a$$ you kissed, how many calls you made, how much sleep you didn't get, and how much wood you took. Chapters now are glorified more for being suspended for hazing, not for having the highest GPA on campus. We got it ALL backwards!

I'd love to see Delta go back to a 3.0

And I'm Out!

[Lone Dog]

I feel what you're saying 411.....

But it brings up yet another interesting point. Like you pointed out in your last post, grades normally do drop when someone is peldging. However, shouldn't the introduction on MIP have changed all of that? I mean, we call folks coming in now paper or skaters if they