Three Hospitalized (Alcohol) at U of Central Florida [Archive]

exlurker

10-26-2006, 04:05 PM

Police responding to a tip about a fraternity party found three students so drunk that they had to be hospitalized. Please note that although the news story alludes to possible "hazing," it also indicates that it's not known if the students were pledges. Apparently it's not known whether the students were old enough to drink legally. Consequently I think the wording of the article could have been a lot better. Still, an instance of get-them-to-the-hospital-now intoxication shouldn't be taken lightly.

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061026/NEWS01/61026020/1075

Edited to add:
A little more information:
According to WFTV, both the university and the police are investigating the incident:

http://www.wftv.com/news/10167991/detail.html

Excerpt:
In the meantime, the fraternity has been put on "organizational suspension," meaning no on or off campus parties, mixers, or intramurals. The charges are disorderly conduct, alcohol and hazing.

Tom Earp

10-26-2006, 04:51 PM

OUCH.

Not again.

When do they learn?:(

SparklySmile

10-27-2006, 01:08 PM

its really sad to see one of the strongest fraternities here on campus in so much trouble. Local news stations blow things out of proportion, so dont take everything they say literally.

question though, what do you guys think the consequences will be?

Kevin

10-27-2006, 01:49 PM

I don't think I've ever seen someone of legal age drink to the point of needing hospitalization.

ufdale

10-27-2006, 02:28 PM

I don't think I've ever seen someone of legal age drink to the point of needing hospitalization.

I have, but they weren't too far into legal age.
Your point is well taken though. Most people's binge drinking years are from 18-21. I really think it's because younger people only see alcohol at parties and never get a chance to experience it responsibly. People think that since it's already illegal to have one drink, might as well have ten. I think it's crazy that the gov expects people to go off to college and wait till they're 21 (late junior/senior year) to drink! Prohibition breeds binge drinking.

Kevin

10-27-2006, 07:49 PM

I have, but they weren't too far into legal age.
Your point is well taken though. Most people's binge drinking years are from 18-21. I really think it's because younger people only see alcohol at parties and never get a chance to experience it responsibly. People think that since it's already illegal to have one drink, might as well have ten. I think it's crazy that the gov expects people to go off to college and wait till they're 21 (late junior/senior year) to drink! Prohibition breeds binge drinking.

Run for office and fix that. It can't be too hard to win an election in Florida judging by the folks representing them on the national scene :)

JonoBN41

10-28-2006, 07:16 PM

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- A University of Central Florida fraternity is under investigation. Sigma Alpha Epsilon has been accused of hazing after three people were taken to the hospital. It's not the first time the frat house has been in hot water.

Accused by whom? It doesn't say.

"We don't know much about what happened to lead them to go to the hospital.

Hmmm...

The three students were treated and released. UCF will talk with doctors to see what made them so sick.

Treated? Treated with what? For what? What's the treatment for drunkeness? Hot coffee?

JonoBN41

10-28-2006, 07:20 PM

"Yes, sometimes history for a chapter is included in looking at an appropriate institutional response,"

It seems to be included when writing for a newspaper too. I don't know anything about SAE at UCF, but I know BAD reporting when I see it. These stories are loaded with unsubstantiated inuendos.

Jono

jon1856

10-28-2006, 10:03 PM

Judging from the following links seems as if there will be a hearing next Friday on this matter. Always more to follow.
http://www.wftv.com/news/10167991/detail.html

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061026/NEWS01/61026020/1075

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/orl-mcfbriefs27_406oct27,0,6859664.story?coll=sfla-news-florida

http://www.wesh.com/news/10166479/detail.html

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/education/orl-mcfbriefs27_406oct27,0,886692.story?coll=orl-news-education-headlines

SparklySmile

10-29-2006, 02:00 PM

ZTAngel

10-29-2006, 04:05 PM

question though, what do you guys think the consequences will be?

I'm not sure although I think this might be the last straw for SAE at UCF. About 3 years ago, there was an incident that SAE was suspended for which involved some pledges. I believe the story was posted on GC. Back when I was still at UCF, there was an incident with them and another fraternity and a drug ring. I know the other fraternity was suspended and I believe SAE was too. I remember the media going crazy over that story. They camped out in front of the fraternity houses and would harass Greeks when they were walking to class just so that they could get a quote. The media wasn't ever able to get the story right back then so I have little faith that the articles they're writing now are correct. Still, it doesn't look good for SAE. I know the University is really cracking down on Greek Park after having a number of hazing and risk management cases over the past couple of years.

SparklySmile

10-29-2006, 11:41 PM

Tear-Drop (TEP)

11-01-2006, 10:57 PM

Media does tend to blow fraternity and sorority events out of wack when shit hits the fan...

Damn media....

PM_Mama00

11-02-2006, 08:17 AM

yea i acctually know the pledges that were involved in the whole situation 3 years ago. they are currently brothers. But the media's facts are so incorrect and blown out of proportion. Theres a meeting on friday to see what UCF decides. Hopefully they will be able to keep their house, bc we've all seen the drama that UCF is STILL having with Pike and their house.

I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong in this situation but...

if fraternities and sororities didn't give the media something to talk about, there wouldn't be this problem.

DeltAlum

11-02-2006, 11:11 AM

if fraternities and sororities didn't give the media something to talk about, there wouldn't be this problem.
Bingo, Bingo!

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time..."

jon1856

11-02-2006, 10:08 PM

I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong in this situation but...

if fraternities and sororities didn't give the media something to talk about, there wouldn't be this problem.
I have to agree as well. The only time I have ever seen/heard of a dorm problem was a few years ago when one had a fire. And the school and policies became the story.

ufdale

11-02-2006, 11:23 PM

So I just watched Orlando's news (my "local" news even though I live 2hrs away) about the fraternity. It was unbelievably biased and anti-greek! They were talking about ritual and their outrage that police weren't allowed in because the fraternity was holding "ritual" (the added emphasis was given by the news, not me). It seemed their purpose in covering this story was just to belittle SAE and the UCF greek system in general. I loved how when the news shifted from a cheerleader who died from suspected alcohol abuse to this story the broadcaster said something like "in other alcohol related news for UCF..." WTF News spins like that just disgust me.

FL-E1973

11-03-2006, 12:08 AM

Yeah they also neglected to report on the shooting death that happened across the street the same night in a university affiliated housing complex.

FL-E1973

11-03-2006, 01:05 AM

Hey we aren't dumbasses lol we have the 2nd highest GPA on campus.

exlurker

11-03-2006, 01:36 AM

A recent report from the web site of a station in Florida:

http://www.local6.com/news/10227405/detail.html

PM_Mama00

11-03-2006, 08:15 AM

Hey we aren't dumbasses lol we have the 2nd highest GPA on campus.

GPA has nothing to do with smarts sometimes.

Question. Has the chapter president given word on the situation yet?

Kevin

11-03-2006, 09:00 AM

It's probably not the best thing for him to speak about specifics of the events on an internet BBS. FL-E1973, I'd caution you about answering those sorts of questions.

33girl

11-03-2006, 09:30 AM

um, yeah, but can you blame them? this is exactly what people expect of greeks...we can do all the philantrophy in the world and be really superinvolved on campus and get better grades than the GDIs but all it takes is one dumbass fraternity getting caught and it's "oh, those stupid greeks are at it again".

"once i did bad, and that i heard ever, twice i did good, and that i heard never"

I'm sorry, I can't hold my tongue any longer.

You've been Greek for all of 2.5 seconds. Stop acting like you know everything there is to know about it.

fifi225

11-03-2006, 01:11 PM

It was unbelievably biased and anti-greek! They were talking about ritual and their outrage that police weren't allowed in because the fraternity was holding "ritual" (the added emphasis was given by the news, not me).

In all fairness...I think the quotes were used in context of this:

At first, investigators were told they could not go inside because a "ritual" was being performed, police said. When officers entered, they saw seven or eight crawling men wearing bras and women's underpants and one man sobbing on the floor and wearing a rainbow-colored wig and a diaper.

One man wearing a pink tank top, women's underwear and a blond wig lay on the floor vomiting while another participant held his head up, the report states.

I hate to be the one to say it, but if a groups ritual routinely inolves crawling around on the floor in bras and panties, wearing wigs and diapers...the quotations are certainly deserved. Things like that make a mockery of the true word and meaning of "ritual".

I'm not saying the report wasn't exaggerated. But IF (and that's a big if) all that stuff written about what was going on in that house is true, I think the "added emphasis" was rather justified.

As for me? The gentlemen of SAE at UCF have never been anything but that to me, gentlemen. I hope that what ever action is taken is fair and unbiased.

adpiucf

11-03-2006, 02:21 PM

Both the pledges who participated and the brothers who arranged this "ritual" deserve to be expelled from UCF. Talk about stupid.

Prancing around in fairy wands and ladies' panties is not what I would have expected from SAE at UCF. These men are an embarrassment to the university and their fraternity.

blackngoldengrl

11-03-2006, 02:55 PM

I'm sorry, I can't hold my tongue any longer.

You've been Greek for all of 2.5 seconds. Stop acting like you know everything there is to know about it.

Whether a new member or 50-year alumna, she's still making a good point. Shoot, you don't even have to be Greek to recognize the lack of good PR for our philanthropies, awards and other accolades compared to the PR we get for the bad stuff.

33girl

11-03-2006, 03:06 PM

Whether a new member or 50-year alumna, she's still making a good point. Shoot, you don't even have to be Greek to recognize the lack of good PR for our philanthropies, awards and other accolades compared to the PR we get for the bad stuff.

I wasn't just referring to the post in this thread, and as far as the post in this thread, I was more referring to her referring to a fraternity ON HER CAMPUS as "dumbasses" when several people at the same school who have been active longer have stated that what was reported isn't the whole story.

christycoons

11-03-2006, 03:37 PM

I'll teach those boys a lesson ;) Send them to my place...hehe

-anonymous

DeltaBetaBaby

11-03-2006, 06:34 PM

Please note that although the news story alludes to possible "hazing," it also indicates that it's not known if the students were pledges.

I am pretty sure that it can be hazing even if the victims were not pledged. I don't know Florida's law, nor UCF, but in most cases, you can haze an initiated brother as well.

JonoBN41

11-03-2006, 06:59 PM

When was it proved that anyone was a victim in this case, or are we more biased - and better at jumping to conclusions - than the reporters?

Furthermore, has anyone noticed the timing? Could the goofy costumes have had anything to do with Halloween?

This happened just three days before the weekend preceding Halloween.

exlurker

11-03-2006, 07:20 PM

I am pretty sure that it can be hazing even if the victims were not pledged. I don't know Florida's law, nor UCF, but in most cases, you can haze an initiated brother as well.

DeltaBetaBaby, thank you for pointing that out! Under Florida law (at least as I read it now) the definition of "hazing" is NOT limited to something done as a condition of initiation or admission into an organization. There's explicit "not limited to" language in the law. I was in error when I posted the comment that connected "hazing" and "pledges" (if my reading of the law is now closer to correct).

Law is posted at

http://www.stophazing.org/laws/fl_law.htm

Serves me right for not checking more carefully. Thanks again.

jon1856

11-04-2006, 08:59 AM

The following seem to be the lastest new release about this story. Note: They do not make a pretty picture of the chapter and activies within.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/education/orl-hazing0306nov03,0,2636527.story?coll=&track=mostemailedlink

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061103/NEWS01/61103018/1075

IvySpice

11-06-2006, 12:50 PM

referring to a fraternity ON HER CAMPUS as "dumbasses"

IMHO, you have more of a right, not less, to characterize and criticize students on your own campus, even if you're a freshman, and even if upperclassmen disagree with you. The public reputation your classmates create impacts the way you and your degree will be perceived. Heaven knows I'm a harsh judge of kids who screw up at my alma mater.

Drolefille

11-06-2006, 12:59 PM

I'll teach those boys a lesson ;) Send them to my place...hehe

-anonymous
just saw this... wtf?

33girl

11-06-2006, 04:29 PM

I'm just saying that when you say things online about other groups on your campus, as an active, it may come back to you and your sorority.

If you know for sure that every one of your sisters shares your opinion on this fraternity, then rock on. But if you DON'T know that for sure, you might want to hold your tongue a bit.

RU OX Alum

11-07-2006, 10:57 AM

it's okay to disagree with her sisters...if she thinks that they're dumbasses, then she thinks that they're dumbasses, she doesn't anyone's validation, she just needs one encounter with them

exlurker

11-08-2006, 06:00 PM

Sigma Alpha Epsilon HQ has closed the chapter, according to this news report:

http://www.wftv.com/news/10276110/detail.html

Tom Earp

11-08-2006, 06:30 PM

FL-E1973

11-08-2006, 07:40 PM

Earp, you have no idea what went on at the house that night. Did you even read that report? First off notice how it was changed from hazing to "party" also did you notice that it said it is unclear why they were sent to the hospital? Simple, because noone had alcohol poisoning or anything like that. It was called a party becasue it was never clearly established if it was hazing. Would you like to know why? Because every pledge did everything voluntarily, they even said this while being questioned by the police. This is why the law should be questioned and is out of control, a sentence is being set forth when nothing has even clearly being established. Guilty until proven innocent in this case.

jon1856

11-08-2006, 09:07 PM

Well, that was a really descriptive news report.

To put it bluntly, if they F--K up, then they should be gone from ignorance on their part!:mad: Get rid of them and then go back if they can and re-colonize.

Suddenly, SAE seems to be in the spot light?

SAE IHQ better put a clamp on this and soon.
Tom;
If one uses a search engine with a news option, one can find stories on more than just SAE. Plug in any GLO and see what comes up.
I have seen a few stories that I just did not wish nor wanted to post.

And National seems to be doing just what they need to be doing. Perhaps in this case, could have waited for some of the dust to settle.

macallan25

11-08-2006, 09:42 PM

DeltAlum

11-08-2006, 09:50 PM

How about you shut your fu**ing mouth.
How about you refrain from telling people to shut up? That's up to the moderators or the board administrator.

That's not an opinion.

jon1856

11-08-2006, 10:09 PM

How about you refrain from telling people to shut up? That's up to the moderators or the board administrator.

That's not an opinion.
DeltaAlum;
While I can see your POV, I have to side with my Brother's thoughts as I had simular ideas when I posted my answer. IMHO, the post that you two are dealing with may have gone one line too far.

macallan25

11-08-2006, 10:53 PM

How about you refrain from telling people to shut up? That's up to the moderators or the board administrator.

That's not an opinion.

How about you refrain from acting like everyone's daddy on a message board, that would be nice.

Generally I don't pay any attention to the mindless, unreadable crap that Tom Earp posts....but when he starts commenting on how my organization "fucks up" and what our HQ should and shouldn't do, while, at the same time, continually acting like "Ramda Guy's" shit doesn't stink....I have a problem with it.

That's not an opinion either.

jon1856

11-08-2006, 11:19 PM

doesn't matter if the pledge agrees or not, it's still illegal.

just saying.
From what I recall reading in current laws/policies, you are very correct Jess'.

FL-E1973

11-08-2006, 11:32 PM

Yeah I'm aware it's illegal, that is just what I think one of the flaws in the law is. It just seems like an oxymoron to me. You can beat someone in the street and if they drop the charges it's over you know what I'm saying. It's interesting that that option doesn't exist in this law.

macallan25

11-09-2006, 01:23 AM

Hazing laws are very shady....I think we can all agree on that. I do think that HQs who are investigating hazing incidents are going to look at what was being done and evaluate on a case by case basis. Just because the action is considered hazing doesn't mean they are going to rip your charter off the wall and put a black cloth over it.

....power and prestige of the chapter involved are going to play some roles too.

adpiucf

11-09-2006, 10:17 AM

Pike has been vacant for less than a year... Last I heard there was some dispute with their House Corp. and the university over usage. I know there are plenty of unhoused GLO's who would love to have the land, if not the house and I hope they resolve it soon. Are the letters still on the Pike house?

ZTAngel

11-09-2006, 11:18 AM

Pike has been vacant for less than a year... Last I heard there was some dispute with their House Corp. and the university over usage.

The other problem is that the Pike house is in such bad shape that many of the unhoused GLO's won't pay the money to fix it or bulldoze it even if Pike Nationals relinquishes control of it. From what I hear, the SAE house is in good condition so I'm curious to see which fraternity buys it...if any of them do.

Elephant Walk

11-09-2006, 12:53 PM

I'm sure it's been said, but they're shutting UCF SAE down.

FL-E1973

11-09-2006, 01:54 PM

The Pike house is empty because it is not up to code from hurricane damage etc. The leases at SAE are still being honored, noone is being forced to move out.

exlurker

11-09-2006, 02:04 PM

The press release posted on Sigma Alpha Epsilon's IHQ web site says:

Press Releases

Central Florida Chapter Closes
ORLANDO, FL – The Sigma Alpha Epsilon headquarters has closed its chapter at the University of Central Florida. This move comes as a result of hazing allegations that took place on October 26, 2006. All members of the chapter are now considered suspended, and the pledge class will be disbanded. In addition, the board of directors will seek to revoke membership rights from those members who took part in the incidents at the chapter house that night.

University of Central Florida administrators support the decision and continue their investigation. The chapter must still appear before a university judicial board, where it may face further sanctions. In addition, university law enforcement may come forth with charges against individual chapter members.

The decision comes on the heels of an ongoing investigation by the fraternity headquarters after officials reviewed university police reports detailing hazing and other inappropriate behavior. Sigma Alpha Epsilon’s leadership will not condone behavior that violates risk-management policies or the general guidelines for chapter operations. Details in the police report disturb fraternity leaders.

“These types of behavior go against everything we stand for, especially being gentlemen,” said Brandon Weghorst, spokesman for the headquarters. “But we’re taking it a step further. We plan to make an example of this chapter by revoking membership from a large number of brothers. Hazing will not be tolerated, and their actions will suffer consequences.”

A chapter advisor who lives in Orlando notified members in person on Wednesday of the closure. The chapter’s charter will remain suspended, not revoked, for an indefinite period of time. Depending on what university officials decide, Sigma Alpha Epsilon may choose to return with a new group of students in several years.

Sigma Alpha Epsilon operates 215 chapters across the country. The chapter at the University of Central Florida is classified as the Florida Epsilon chapter.

http://www.sae.net/?r=newsroom&sr=press_releases&ssr=press_releases&art_num=115&art_cat=2

fifi225

11-09-2006, 02:23 PM

The Pike house is empty because it is not up to code from hurricane damage etc. The leases at SAE are still being honored, noone is being forced to move out.

Among other things. There were some structural modifications made to the house, beams removed to make a loft, load bearing walls compromised etc etc etc that (from what the fire marshall told me) have contributed to the house being deemd "unsafe". It needs a lot of work.

The SAE house isn't in bad shape, before I graduated Theta rushed out of there. (I should mention that the guys were never anything but amazingly nice to us and helpful) and we also worked on homecoming stuff over there. It's really a very nice house inside.

macallan25

11-09-2006, 02:50 PM

Not really. They're there to protect pledges. They are a little...thorough, I guess I'll give you that. But people have been killed...there need to be laws that ban it completely in ANY form.

Maybe the thing about the prestige of the chapter is true at some schools, but not at my school, and what happened today proves that very well. At UCF, you don't really get more prestigious than SAE. They were perceived as one of the best fraternities on campus and (someone correct me if I'm wrong) I think they might have been one of the biggest as well.

Actually, yes they are. Hazing laws are not thorough and are very hazy at best. My favorite was this definition: "Hazing is something done to pledges that active members don't have to participate in." Great, that's really defined.

Sorry, you can't just say.."Well, people have been killed...so lets just ban it completely..." People have been killed shooting shotguns on hunting trips........I guess we should just ban guns. People have been killed crossing the street by cars. Maybe we should ban crosswalks.....or how about cars? Fraternity members have been killed falling down stairs...mabye we should ban steps...or perhaps second and third floors on buildings.

It is just shocking to me how narrowminded some of you people are concerning hazing. As i've said before......you can haze without it being dangerous or life threatening in a manner that actually serves a purpose.

And I hate to say it.....but when I think "prestige and power" SAE at CENTRAL FLORIDA doesn't come to mind. I generally think SAE at UGA, SAE at Texas, SAE at Alabama, SAE at SMU, etc. Many of these chapters have had some pretty serious things happend to them.......and came out of the situations with little more than probation and a slap on the wrist. So, if you are going to argue with me that power, money, prestige, and reputation nationally don't play a part in decisions.......you are going to fight an uphill battle. I've been around it and i've seen it first hand.

adpiucf

11-09-2006, 03:12 PM

Among other things. There were some structural modifications made to the house, beams removed to make a loft, load bearing walls compromised etc etc etc that (from what the fire marshall told me) have contributed to the house being deemd "unsafe". It needs a lot of work.

Holy cow. I'd forgotten all about the Pike house "lofts." LOL.

ETA: With there being two vacant chapter houses on campus, I hope that Chi Omega will finally be able to get on-campus housing. Anyone who goes to UCF will (for the most part) agree that sorority housing should take priority over the fraternities.

FL-E1973

11-09-2006, 03:22 PM

Just out of curiousity, why should sorority housing have priority over fraternities?

sherbertlemons

11-09-2006, 03:34 PM

ETA: With there being two vacant chapter houses on campus, I hope that Chi Omega will finally be able to get on-campus housing. Anyone who goes to UCF will (for the most part) agree that sorority housing should take priority over the fraternities.

Amen to that, sister!

FL-E1973, it's basically because recruitment is a nightmare for unhoused sororities there. The first word out of every girls mouth is "Why don't you have a house?" The housed sororities always make quota, while the unhoused ones have to struggle to make decent numbers.

I was once told by a GCer that the housed sororities were in trouble when the unhoused ones finally got houses. Basically, the reasoning was that we have to work really really hard for every small gain we make, while the housed sororities have it easy and make quota with no problem. And as a an alumna of an unhoused sorority at UCF, I agree with that statement.

TSteven

11-09-2006, 03:35 PM

According to Sigma Alpha Epsilon IHQ: "The chapter’s charter will remain suspended, not revoked, for an indefinite period of time. Depending on what university officials decide, Sigma Alpha Epsilon may choose to return with a new group of students in several years."

I bet dollars to donuts, that SAE will be back on campus sooner than later.

adpiucf

11-09-2006, 03:41 PM

I have a feeling the house is going to stand alone for the next few years-- I hope they'll at least lease it out to someone.

sherbertlemons

11-09-2006, 03:48 PM

I have a feeling the house is going to stand alone for the next few years-- I hope they'll at least lease it out to someone.

I have a feeling about that, too. It's sad; the unhoused sororities would really kill for the Pike or SAE houses. I was on campus recently and the Pike house looks really bad, too.

Stupid frats who can't behave themselves and then can't even give up their empty houses!

FL-E1973

11-09-2006, 03:54 PM

I don't know if I am talking to a brick wall here or not but the house is not going to be empty, second of all, recruiting a fraternity without a house is no picnic either.

TSteven

11-09-2006, 04:02 PM

Some hypothetical questions.

Would a sorority lease a house knowing that it would only be for X number of years? And how many years do y'all think a chapter would be willing to lease it? Would it hurt the chapter "down the line" to have been housed for a couple of years, then un-housed?

And a non-hypothetical "real" question.

Why are some chapters un-housed? Why not rent something off campus? Do they have some sort of space (suite, dorm floor, etc.) currently?

ZTAngel

11-09-2006, 04:02 PM

Any word on Greek Park 2? It's been in the works forever and I thought they finally got the turtle problem solved.

adpiucf

11-09-2006, 04:03 PM

I have a feeling about that, too. It's sad; the unhoused sororities would really kill for the Pike or SAE houses. I was on campus recently and the Pike house looks really bad, too.

Stupid frats who can't behave themselves and then can't even give up their empty houses!

I agree. I think it would help the unhoused chapters tremendously to be on "equal" footing at recruitment. So many girls won't even look at an unhoused chapter because the ones with houses are perceived as stronger. Which is very silly.

Although getting a house doesn't mean that a chapter won't experience growing pains. When Alpha Xi got the DG house a few years ago, a large number of women cancelled -- dues experienced a sharp increase. While I think this was a good opportunity to separate the women who truly wanted to be there from those who didn't, I recall a good number of wonderful members who truly couldn't afford the extra expense. All in all, it's really been a pleasure to watch Alpha Xi grow-- I got to campus when they were still relatively new to UCF and they have just taken off since they got a chapter house.

adpiucf

11-09-2006, 04:09 PM

And a non-hypothetical "real" question.

Why are some chapters un-housed? Why not rent something off campus? Do they have some sort of space (suite, dorm floor, etc.) currently?

They simply don't have the space available for Greek housing. Thus, of the 11 sororities, only 6 are housed: ADPi, ZTA, KD, DDD, Alpha Xi, Pi Phi. During recruitment, XO, Theta, Kappa, DG and AEPhi each take over a fraternity house and rush out of that house for the week. And even the housed chapters can't fit all of their members into the house as live-ins. Of 100+ members per chapter, 30-40 can live-in. Off campus, members will rent blocks of apartments together.

We don't have formal sorority suites or dorms-- there isn't the space within campus housing. The university has gotten so large (at or over 50,000 students-- one of the largest universities by enrollment in the US) that it has purchased privately owned apts just off campus for use as university housing and the continue to build more and more oncampus housing options, not to mention new classroom buildings. Everytime I visit the school, another dirt parking lot is gone and there's a new classroom or paved road in its place.

The unhoused chapters have weekly meeting rooms on campus or the student union for their meetings and conduct ritual at alumnae's homes or nearby churches. There's some prohibition about renting a house off-campus to function as the "chapter house." The fraternities are allowed to, but the sororities won't do it-- I don't know if this is a university rule, campus Panhellenic rule or a Risk Management issue unique to each sorority's house corp.

The Florida Epsilon chapter of SAE may not sound as "pretigious" as the ones in the SEC, but at UCF, SAE was a very strong fraternity, and well-recognized throughout the state. It is very unfortunate that the chapter has closed due to the immature actions of a few members. I hope other fraternities will exercise better common sense so that this trend does not continue at UCF. Whether or not they were hazing, they got caught doing something. I realize there are other fraternties doing similiar stupid things and not getting caught. And sadly, that is what makes the difference in the end.

alphagamgirlie

11-09-2006, 04:21 PM

The Pike house is empty because it is not up to code from hurricane damage etc. The leases at SAE are still being honored, noone is being forced to move out.

And a wall was removed in the Pike house, so it's def unsafe to live in it until it's fixed.

FL-E1973

11-09-2006, 04:24 PM

I heard that most of off campus Greek housing aka "The Greek Ghetto" is being leveled, that really sucks for all the groups in there.

TrueBlueKappa

11-09-2006, 05:57 PM

Any word on Greek Park 2? It's been in the works forever and I thought they finally got the turtle problem solved.

At our Founders Day this fall, the current collegiate Kappa president told me and some other young alums that it is in the works (for real this time :D ). It is supposed to be located across from Sigma Chi. The houses will be smaller than the current houses, but each house will have its own distinctive front. If you have been on campus recently, you'll see that they're changing all the roads. The entrance off University isn't going to be the "main" entrance anymore. I got the impression that maybe they were going to have the main entrance at this new Greek park.

sherbertlemons

11-09-2006, 06:59 PM

I don't know if I am talking to a brick wall here or not but the house is not going to be empty, second of all, recruiting a fraternity without a house is no picnic either.

Well, I certainly hope you're not talking to a brick wall. :-)

I agree, recruiting without a house is no fun for anyone, epecially when chapters around you are housed. However, I will argue that it is different. Now, I'm no expert on fraternity recruitment (obviously), but my understanding is that they have a much more laid back recruitment. More time for the PNMs to get to know the brothers, etc.

Now take sorority recruitment. At UCF, we generally had between a half hour and a hour with the PNMs. You have a very short period of time to make a first impression, which was often all the information the girls had with which to make a decision. The first thing girls noticed when they were walking into my chapter during recruitment was "Wait, we're walking into a fraternity house." I haven't even met the girl and I already have explaining to do!

The first words out of her mouth are "Why don't you have a house?" After I finish the answer, the next question is "Are you going to get a house?" Beleive me, "eventually" doesn't seem to satisfy most PNMs. So I've just wasted several minutes out of my precious thirty minute conversation answering questions that really don't have happy answers. IMHO, that is why recruitment without a house is far worse on sororities.

Not only are UCF's houses small, it is my understanding that there is at least one group with a house so small they can't even hold chapter meetings there!

TrueBlueKappa, I really hope housing works out this time. I really do. I'm just not going to believe UCF will actually make it happen until I'm standing on Kappa's front porch.

Oh, to be a rich alumna who could dangle a nice fat donation in front of UCF's face and ask that they fix the Greek housing situation.

macallan25

11-09-2006, 07:21 PM

By "thorough", I kind of meant "vague", they encompass a lot. Hazing is banned completely to PROTECT the pledges. That way if it happens, you can't get off by pretending it was some kind of "allowed" hazing.

Protect them from what? What do they need protecton from if you aren't doing anything dangerous?

GDIfly

11-09-2006, 08:17 PM

study files

should you really admit to having those?

TrueBlueKappa

11-09-2006, 08:46 PM

It's funny that you said this because it was a UCF Kappa alumna who donated the land they're building GP2 on. ;)

GP2, sounds like an action movie...

Are you sure about that? Our chapter is only 3 years old. I am a charter sister, and I think I'd know if one of my pledge sisters donated acres and acres of land to UCF.

sherbertlemons

11-09-2006, 08:54 PM

Are you sure about that? Our chapter is only 3 years old. I am a charter sister, and I think I'd know if one of my pledge sisters donated acres and acres of land to UCF.

That was what I was about to say, too. Maybe it was a Kappa alumna, but in that case it's hard to believe I wouldn't know that for fact.

TrueBlueKappa, I tried to reply to your PM, but I got a message that said you had elected not to receive PMs. Can you figure out what's going on?

TrueBlueKappa

11-09-2006, 08:58 PM

That was what I was about to say, too. Maybe it was a Kappa alumna, but in that case it's hard to believe I wouldn't know that for fact.

TrueBlueKappa, I tried to reply to your PM, but I got a message that said you had elected not to receive PMs. Can you figure out what's going on?

I haven't been able to receive them for awhile, but no one can fix it for me. :(

macallan25

11-09-2006, 08:59 PM

should you really admit to having those?

Since when is having old tests and notes a bad thing? Hell...most teachers here post there own test files on our university website. If a professor is too lazy to make new exams every year......thats their problem.

sherbertlemons

11-09-2006, 09:03 PM

I haven't been able to receive them for awhile, but no one can fix it for me. :(

Well, do you still have AIM? Can you PM your AIM name or something?

macallan25

11-09-2006, 09:15 PM

How can I phrase this...

If you have laws that permit hazing that isn't harmful, it's very easy for a chapter to take advantage of it and use that law to protect themselves. It's better to ban it outright, because it's not necessary to haze to have a good chapter and a close pledge class. I wasn't hazed at all, definitely the opposite, and my PC is very close.

How would you know what is necessary for a fraternity to have a good chapter and a close pledge class? Explain this. Last time I checked, you rushed and were initiated about 5 minutes ago.

You are in a sorority, no one expects you to get hazed. Stop trying to argue from the standpoint of sorority vs. fraternity.....it is completely different in just about every aspect.

Maybe you should take some trips to the top chapters at all of the huge Southern greek schools and see how they do it....because you don't have a clue. None of us are going to make it a walk in the park for pledges to get their letters. They are going to earn it.....and we can all go about it in a safe and productive manner....which would include hazing. I don't know a single guy from a good chapter that wasnt hazed.....and they all will tell you, to this day, that their pledge year was one of the best they have had. I always say it was the best worst time of my life.....i'd do it again in a heartbeat.

TrueBlueKappa

11-09-2006, 09:16 PM

I know how old your chapter is. I was told that by two different girls at two different KKG parties at recruitment, including the president (Kelly K.) so I assume it's true. I was told that it was a UCF Kappa but, who knows, you may want to check with your chapter about it.

Hon, I am not trying to be rude at all. All I can say is that you must have misheard. I don't need to check with the girls I already know. And I know who the president is, you don't have to drop a name to prove yourself.

/hijack. Let's get back to the main point of the thread.

macallan25

11-09-2006, 10:49 PM

For Christ's sake, I'm not talking about how what actually happens, I'm talking about the law. Stop going on and on about "old Southern Greeks", those are not the only ones that exist.

You can talk about the law all you want.....you aren't proving anything. You obviously have little knowledge of how things work outside of UCF. If you understood how things do actually happen.....then you wouldn't sit here trying to make some pointless argument of the legality of hazing.

FL-E1973

11-09-2006, 11:12 PM

adpiucf

11-10-2006, 11:00 AM

I honestly just can't wait for like two weeks to pass becasue I gauruntee everyone will forget about this. The other thing that bother's me is once something like this happens it's like oh the Greeks are giving UCF a bad name, it's just so easy to be a target. When a GDI dies of alcohol poisoning, or goes to the hospital nobody is like Damn those idiot GDI's are ruining everything. I guess it just comes with the territory. On another note I notice a lot of strife within sororities here on campus. I hear about littles talking bad about their bigs and things of that nature. I think that shows a serious problem with how new members are brought into the Sororities.

You're right. It will be ancient history in a few weeks. And all women gossip about each other. This isn't a problem exclusive to UCF or sororities. It concerns the entire gender. Not everyone in a sorority LUVS everyone in their sorority all of the time. Yes, sororities shouldn't concern fraternity men with their chapter problems, but I think it is reasonable that a woman should be allowed to vent to her friends, regardless of gender, if someone has upset her and she is trying to figure out the means to cope or deal with that person.

adpiucf

11-10-2006, 11:09 AM

You can talk about the law all you want.....you aren't proving anything. You obviously have little knowledge of how things work outside of UCF. If you understood how things do actually happen.....then you wouldn't sit here trying to make some pointless argument of the legality of hazing.

What does it matter how prestigious Southern fraternities haze their new members when the thread in question is about UCF and a UCF student is commenting on a UCF situation. Fact: The SAE chapter at UCF was a strong UCF chapter. Fact: SAE at UCF has been de-recognized. Fact: In the past, UCF fraternities have gotten in trouble for hazing. Fact: There is a law in Florida that prohibits hazing. Whether that law is clear as day or vague to the general public is irrelevant-- the legal system exists to draft confusion and vague legislation that keeps lawyers and judges employed. Fact: If hazing is against the law in a state, a collegiate men's organization is not above the law to haze their members no matter how "safely" they perceive the hazing.

Clearly, SAE HQ does not condone these behaviors or the chapter would not be closing. That is also a fact.

So while the good chapters not at UCF must haze the bejesus out of their men to make them true SAEs, that is neither here nor there. This is a thread about UCF SAE, and not other schools Greek Systems, or how they haze.

And I realize that JessXIca is new to the Greek System, but she is also a UCF upperclassman who has been involved with the Greek System prior to joining Alpha Xi through UCF activities. It's a big school, but it's still a small community. I don't think anyone needs sorority tenure to comment on situations occuring at her university.

DeltAlum

11-10-2006, 01:06 PM

When a GDI dies of alcohol poisoning, or goes to the hospital nobody is like Damn those idiot GDI's are ruining everything.
We're not talking apples and apples here.

If an independent were to die due to an event by an organized group, you can bet that it would be a big deal on campus and in the news.

Normally, though, the Library Club probably won't be throwing a keg party -- well, at most schools.

FL-E1973

11-10-2006, 02:12 PM

Yeah so when a group of friends holds a keg party I get it. Someone can leave their house and get in a deadly drunk driving accident, and not expect to have reporters walking into their house uninvited etc. That to me is a problem, when a group is being punished on a sole reason of being an organization that is BS especially if noone was harmed. As for HQ those guys had to have done a lot worse stuff than this. They're just trying to be PC, which unfortunatly so is the rest of this country, I think it's time things got real again.

macallan25

11-10-2006, 03:17 PM

What does it matter how prestigious Southern fraternities haze their new members when the thread in question is about UCF and a UCF student is commenting on a UCF situation. Fact: The SAE chapter at UCF was a strong UCF chapter. Fact: SAE at UCF has been de-recognized. Fact: In the past, UCF fraternities have gotten in trouble for hazing. Fact: There is a law in Florida that prohibits hazing. Whether that law is clear as day or vague to the general public is irrelevant-- the legal system exists to draft confusion and vague legislation that keeps lawyers and judges employed. Fact: If hazing is against the law in a state, a collegiate men's organization is not above the law to haze their members no matter how "safely" they perceive the hazing.

Clearly, SAE HQ does not condone these behaviors or the chapter would not be closing. That is also a fact.

So while the good chapters not at UCF must haze the bejesus out of their men to make them true SAEs, that is neither here nor there. This is a thread about UCF SAE, and not other schools Greek Systems, or how they haze.

And I realize that JessXIca is new to the Greek System, but she is also a UCF upperclassman who has been involved with the Greek System prior to joining Alpha Xi through UCF activities. It's a big school, but it's still a small community. I don't think anyone needs sorority tenure to comment on situations occuring at her university.

1.) I can assure you plenty of chapters can side step the law.

2.) Again, you are speaking of hazing like it is some horrible, God awful action. Clearly, you are completely narrowminded on the subject.

UCFStefanie

11-10-2006, 05:28 PM

I might be behind on this notice and if I am I do appologize, But here is the official notice from SAE HQ

http://www.sae.net/index.asp?r=newsroom&sr=press_releases&ssr=press_releases&art_num=115&art_cat=2

UCFStefanie

11-10-2006, 05:34 PM

LOL OK I am behind, just goes to show I am a slow reader.

fifi225

11-10-2006, 10:24 PM

LOL OK I am behind, just goes to show I am a slow reader.

It's ok. I love yu anyway :P

DeltAlum

11-12-2006, 01:58 PM

Yeah so when a group of friends holds a keg party I get it. Someone can leave their house and get in a deadly drunk driving accident, and not expect to have reporters walking into their house uninvited etc.
I don't think that's true. I think pretty much any media would report where the person got drunk enough to cause the accident -- and depending on the laws of that location, the people who allowed someone to get that drunk could be held accountable.

"The driver had just left a party at..."

It would certainly be true of commercial establishments (bars, restaurants, etc.).

Tom Earp

11-12-2006, 04:15 PM

Inspite of what some SAE Members on G C say, it looks like SAE IHQ is starting to hold a no nonsense priority as I read the IHQ Site.

macallan25

11-12-2006, 06:01 PM

It's a website Tom......not the be all, end all to everything that SAE does. Stop trying to be some investigative know-it-all douchebag. I am well aware of what our "National Policy" states..........because I know that you are referring to me. Everything I have stated is from my point of view or experience. I am not speaking on behalf of SAE nationals......so quit while you are behind.

jon1856

11-12-2006, 06:05 PM

Inspite of what some SAE Members on G C say, it looks like SAE IHQ is starting to hold a no nonsense priority as I read the IHQ Site.

Say what??
Tom, I know I have never said anything against my National and I do not recall anyone else doing so.

You may be confusing "IMHO/POV" statements vs policy statements.

And from what I have seen here, been told or read elsewhere, most Nationals will hold same no nonsense policy in matters we have seen here.
And we have not seen everything that is going on; both in these matters as well as many others that are going on out there at many other GLO's.

adpiucf

11-13-2006, 10:03 AM

1.) I can assure you plenty of chapters can side step the law.

That doesn't make it right.

2.) Again, you are speaking of hazing like it is some horrible, God awful action. Clearly, you are completely narrowminded on the subject.
Hazing is illegal. There are other methods to go about establishing brotherhood bonds-- most things that you consider safe-hazing need only minor modification to follow your own fraternity's policies. Clearly, you are completely narrowminded on the subject believing that you are above the law, as well as the policies your own brothers have voted into being. But again, I suppose that is neither here nor there, because you believe you and the offending prestigious chapters are above such policies.

RU OX Alum

11-13-2006, 10:27 AM

i think the problem with most discussions on "hazing" is that you all refuse to agree on a working definition, which renders everything posted invalid

macallan25

11-13-2006, 10:48 AM

That doesn't make it right.

Hazing is illegal. There are other methods to go about establishing brotherhood bonds-- most things that you consider safe-hazing need only minor modification to follow your own fraternity's policies. Clearly, you are completely narrowminded on the subject believing that you are above the law, as well as the policies your own brothers have voted into being. But again, I suppose that is neither here nor there, because you believe you and the offending prestigious chapters are above such policies.

I never said I was above the law at all, nor did I say anything about "policies my own brothers have voted into being" or believing that me and the offending prestigious chapters are above such policies. If you can find where I said any of these things or actually commented on what me and my chapter do during pledgeship....i'd love to see it. However, if you are going to sit there and try to put words in my mouth, then you can keep your comments to yourself. I never made any of my comments from a personal perspective...I made them because they are true.

I actually have a very open mind about what goes on...clearly, you don't. I am well aware that hazing is illegal. I am also well aware that many chapters can get away with quite a high degree of things before they actually get into trouble. If you don't believe this, you are only kidding yourself. Do I think it is right for it to be like that? I don't know.....but its nice to have the ability to get out of some trouble IF it arises. You think Alabama SAE (our founding chapter) is going to get shut down for a minor hazing infraction...or because a kid or two got too drunk? Doubt it.

fifi225

11-13-2006, 12:15 PM

macallan25

11-13-2006, 12:31 PM

....Can I be you when I grow up? Seriously, you said exactly what I was too fusturated to properly articulate.

And an aside:

I guess I'm too narrowminded to understand why you would want to place someone in harm's way that you claim to care about, or that you want in your bond. I also seem to miss the point of humiliating/degrading someone that you want to join your society.

Well, it certainly appears you have a narrowminded view of the topic. Oh I forgot, hazing has to be degrading/humiliating/harmful.

FL-E1973

11-13-2006, 01:48 PM

Oh I forgot, hazing has to be degrading/humiliating/harmful.
Thank you

fifi225

11-13-2006, 03:17 PM

Oh I forgot, hazing has to be degrading/humiliating/harmful.

I stand corrected, I should have made myself more clear. I can understand why an organization would want its potential members to be closer and why they would use activities to cultivate that as well as a respect for the letters they hope to eventually wear.

However (and this is the part I should have made more clear), I was referring to specific catagories of the broad defination of "hazing" (the type that tends to get chapters in trouble). I simply don't understand it.

My apologies for the ambiguity.

Tom Earp

11-13-2006, 04:17 PM

I stand corrected, I should have made myself more clear. I can understand why an organization would want its potential members to be closer and why they would use activities to cultivate that as well as a respect for the letters they hope to eventually wear.

However (and this is the part I should have made more clear), I was referring to specific catagories of the broad defination of "hazing" (the type that tends to get chapters in trouble). I simply don't understand it.

My apologies for the ambiguity.

LOL, you do not have to worry, he is always contrary.:D

He never had a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:(

Backers of hazing are becoming extinct.

macallan25

11-13-2006, 04:22 PM

LOL, you do not have to worry, he is always contrary.:D

He never had a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:(

Although this makes no sense.....as usual....mostly because you have yet to get a firm grasp on the English language at your old age..........I am going to assume that this should be translated as: "Has he never heard of a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:( "
To this, I would reply : Yes, moron, I have heard of chapters getting removed from campuses. This is a moot point and has nothing to do with the current conversation.

Backers of hazing are becoming extint.

Backers of the proper/traditional way to pledge a fraternity are becoming extinct.

.......and it is destroying the Greek system.

Tom Earp

11-13-2006, 05:44 PM

Although this makes no sense.....as usual....mostly because you have yet to get a firm grasp on the English language at your old age..........I am going to assume that this should be translated as: "Has he never heard of a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:( "
To this, I would reply : Yes, moron, I have heard of chapters getting removed from campuses. This is a moot point and has nothing to do with the current conversation.

Backers of the proper/traditional way to pledge a fraternity are becoming extinct.

.......and it is destroying the Greek system.

You art so funny and ???

You Cannnot understand, It was so very simple that even A Simpleton could read!

macallan25

11-13-2006, 06:14 PM

You art so funny and ???

You Cannnot understand, It was so very simple that even A Simpleton could read!

Forgiveth thou....for thou art having thee roughest time deciphering ye posteths.

Tom Earp

11-13-2006, 06:20 PM

Trying to figure if you are to funny or to ignorant?

Just being funny or stupid?

Well, everyone or a bunch can make their conclusion.

Did this compute?:o

Drolefille

11-13-2006, 06:21 PM

I agree with macallan

macallan25

11-13-2006, 06:53 PM

http://www.hetemeel.com/haha/59877.TOM+EARP+SAYS%3A%20TRY+TO+READ+THIS+ONE+BIAT CH%21%21.jpg

jon1856

11-13-2006, 08:28 PM

i think the problem with most discussions on "hazing" is that you all refuse to agree on a working definition, which renders everything posted invalid

You are correct, Sir!:)
Something that Brother Mac and I figured out in another thread somewhere here in RM

Part, and only part, of the problem is that laws, policies, Acts, POV's et al are themselves so broad and wide.

As are the actions and thoughts of the people they are aimed at.

ZTAngel

11-16-2006, 03:43 PM

I have a few comments about that letter. For starters, it's been exactly 6 years since the GHB incident. It happened during Homecoming 2000. I should know because we were doing Homecoming with SAE that year.

Furthermore, the GHB incident wasn't just some brother making and selling the drug in the house. The brother ended up making a lethal dose of GHB which he sold to some Kappa Sigs who were using the drug to help with their work-outs. (a lot of bodybuilders use GHB for this purpose) Two of the brothers were violently ill and another brother was put on life support for days. It was a horrible and sobering experience for the entire UCF Greek community.

Whether you like it or not, the past indiscretions of organizations are always brought up in the future. It happens with companies as well. There are a ton of companies out there who are still paying the price for something that happened many years ago. It does not matter that the people who were involved in the unfortunate incidents are no longer around. People tend to remember negatives more than positives - it's just a fact of life. The best thing a group can do is learn from the mistakes that their older members have made in the past and do their best not to make those mistakes again.

I don't think anyone will truly know what happened at the SAE house that night. But, when you have suspicious activity at the house for the 3rd time in 6 years, it doesn't look good. And the people who determined SAE's fate would, of course, look at the history. Had this been the first time the UCF SAEs had a problem, I'd bet they'd still be on campus right now.

Let this be a lesson to all undergraduates. You might think that what your chapter did 5 or 10 years ago doesn't or shouldn't matter. It does matter. Learn from the mistakes that your brothers and sisters made and don't screw up again.

AGDee

11-16-2006, 11:54 PM

I'd just like to add that it is incredibly stupid to post something in the media that admits guilt to anything as this letter did. It can so easily be used against you, your brothers, the officers, your Inter/National organization, etc.

fifi225

11-17-2006, 04:20 PM

Yeah. I was amazed. They basically said, "yeah, we did it, but it's not that big of a deal."

Well I mean...at some point you lose all plausable denyability anyway. I don't think that them saying "yeah we did it" is so awful...they did. It's the "but it's not that big of a deal" part...

adpiucf

11-17-2006, 04:29 PM

I found the fact that they were comparing themselves to the modern Germans having to pay repartions for the atrocities of WW2 to be a bit of a stretch. If there are several allegations and incidents within a close span of years it does not matter if you were "12 years old" when the first alleged incident occured. It's called social responsibility and repeated allegations and incidents in the news leads to a pattern of behavior where the older members are going to attract similiar newer members and encourage similiar patterns of behavior.

That being said... Closing a chapter, whatever the reason, is never an easy decision. My sympathies do go out to the members, SAE and the UCF Greek Community. It affects everyone.

That also being said I hope the men of the closed chapter maintain their friendships but at least respect the decision that they are a closed chapter. Holding unofficial events (as we have seen happen at other campuses) with other Greek groups will only lead to further disruption in the UCF Greek System, not to mention the Risk Management issues involved for all concerned. I hope all concerned (closed chapter and active chapters) have the common sense to maintain their friendships and realize that there are to be no parties or activities with "SAE." I'd hate to see a sorority lose recognition or be placed on probabtion for failing to use good judgement.

fifi225

11-23-2006, 12:25 PM

"University officials said the fraternity admitted to disorderly conduct and alcohol- and drug-related misconduct during an administrative hearing Friday. The university found the fraternity in violation of UCF's policy against hazing."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-frat2306nov23,0,7441345.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

6 years until SAE can even think about rejoining the UCF greek community. Ouch.

fifi225

11-23-2006, 06:08 PM

I eagerly await information regarding the house...

You and me both. I'd love to see chi omega finally get a house. I'd love even more to see theta get a house, but I think I'm a little bit biased on that subject ;-)

I'm not sure what will happen to the house it's owned by a charatable organization associated with SAE so the question becomes, will they allow another organization to take over (and will any GLO settle for taking something over "in the interum") . I'd imagine that SAE hopes to someday recolonize at UCF, in which case they would probably want the house avaliable.

I feel bad for the guys that have had to uproot and move, especially since not all of them were present for the "incident" but now all of them have to vacate.

strubbe

11-29-2006, 11:31 AM

Although this makes no sense.....as usual....mostly because you have yet to get a firm grasp on the English language at your old age..........I am going to assume that this should be translated as: "Has he never heard of a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:( "
To this, I would reply : Yes, moron, I have heard of chapters getting removed from campuses. This is a moot point and has nothing to do with the current conversation.

Backers of the proper/traditional way to pledge a fraternity are becoming extinct.

.......and it is destroying the Greek system.

Just wanted to throw this out there... My fraternity was founded against the ideals that you are so fond of. What is proper or traditional to one organization is not necessarily proper or traditional for another.

Interesting thread...