The Race Card

[honeychile]

Let me say up front that I have a biracial cousin, who identifies more with being black than white - even though she could easily "pass".

During the OJ trial, we got into a discussion, and I asked her why most of the black community felt that OJ was innocent, and the white community felt that OJ was guilty. I naively asked, "Why does it always have to be a racial issue?"

She responded, "Because to us, it always is."


My question now is WHY? Why do we have to state someone's race in any given situation, as if it's that's the "real" issue? Have we not yet learned that we're all people, not a representative of our entire race? While I understand a return to heritage, in this case, is it a good thing, or a bad thing?

[Tickled Pink 2]

Happy Belated b'day by the way!

Your cousin was just being honest in a sense. But it's not always about race in just the AA community. Perhaps after being slighted so often - we're quicker to call people on it (let's see if this can be an intelligent discussion w/o the eye rolling and name calling).

I think backgrounds and experiences shape what many of us believe and how we see things. Some simply can't fathom that there are still racial issues because they've never experienced racism (and that's anyone of any race - some AA's with different backgrounds don't believe it). Some see race in everything.

Look at the Susan Smith case. When she first described her children's "kidnapper" my supervisor at the time & I had a major disagreement (we were like that - we could disagree, still like each other, & still work together). She was all up in arms as were alot of white people at work- looking out for this assailant - going off at the lunch table. I told her (& everyone else there) the pic looked like a stereotypical "Sambo" and I thought she made it up. They looked at me like I was crazy. I was so mad. I didn't think she was racist - but I couldn't understand for the life of me why she couldn't see the image as I saw it. Turns out - that heffa.... I mean woman... drowned her children.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Oh - & I don't think OJ killed Nicole either. :eek: Too old & decrepit. But I do think he was involved and he's not completely innocent - and I don't know too many people that thinks he's completely innocent either.

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by honeychile
Let me say up front that I have a biracial cousin, who identifies more with being black than white - even though she could easily "pass".

During the OJ trial, we got into a discussion, and I asked her why most of the black community felt that OJ was innocent, and the white community felt that OJ was guilty. I naively asked, "Why does it always have to be a racial issue?"

She responded, "Because to us, it always is."


My question now is WHY? Why do we have to state someone's race in any given situation, as if it's that's the "real" issue? Have we not yet learned that we're all people, not a representative of our entire race? While I understand a return to heritage, in this case, is it a good thing, or a bad thing?

This is a good question, and a discussion I had in an American Race Relations class I once took. I think that for minorities our race (and on some level with women, our gender) is constantly on our minds, because that is how most people in society view us. For example, a friend of mine was describing my research group, and I'm the only African American, and my race was singled out in the descriptions, but no one else's was. Add to that the many negative stereotypes of minorities that continue to persist today, and you have a situation where certain people must always be "on guard".

In general, I don't see race/heritage as a bad thing. I am proud of my history and my people, and I would expect anyone else to be the same way. The problems begin when people say "I'm better than you because I'm (fill in the blank)" or "You can't do XYZ because you're (fill in the blank)". And yes, things like this still happen.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by Tickled Pink 2
Turns out - that heffa.... I mean woman... drowned her children.


I think you got it right the first time, TP.

[starang21]

because as the minority, people of color are almost always identified partially (as completely) by their race by the majority.

[Phasad1913]

I think the phrase "playing the race card" in and of itself is insenstive and is indicative of the larger problem of dismissal of race related issues that are important to us and not to others. When I hear people say "so and so are playing the race card" it bothers me becasue who are they to say, as I assume they mean, that a person's perception that race is the central issue of a particular situation is less than valid or real? That by itself highlights the oblivion and nonchalance that a lot of people who have the luxury of a larger population with which THEY identify relative to our smaller population with often a smaller voice live in.

[ztawinthropgirl]

Off-Topic Somewhat: I have driven on the road Susan Smith took to John D. Long Lake (I live in SC) and saw the "starting point" for her car. She had a looonnnnggg drive from the "starting point" to the end. You get on this one road and you have turn off of that road and there's still a ways to go. It was a good 45 minutes or so drive for her. 45 minutes to really think about what she was going to do.

Along the lines with Susan Smith, I don't think it was a racial issue. I believe it was just a crazy woman doing something unimagineable. She had to think of a description of someone that didn't look like any of the people in Union because everyone knows everyone in Union.

With OJ Simpson, I believe he was the one that planned the whole entire crime and hired someone to commit the murder. He has bad knees from his football career. Granted, he's strong enough to beat someone up, but the way the prosecution described the crime scene, I don't believe he could have ran fast enough or been nimble enough to climb anything to get out of sight.

I don't identify anyone by their race. I don't know many people that do identify someone by his or her race, and I know a lot of people. I also live in the Southeast, which still has the stigma of having racial issues. Granted, there are areas in the Southeast that are racially-charged areas. Every geographic area of the United States has somewhere that has groups of races which don't get along or they have some kind of preconceived notion about another's race or gender. Other races have precconceived notion about white people, and so on and so on.

I identify someone by their character and personality and intelligence. I don't care what gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation you are. If you have the qualities I seek in a friend, then, so be it . . . let's be friends and go on with our lives. I may be one of the few people that have that attitude. I just see people as people. If I were hiring someone, I am not going to hire you because of your gender or race. I will hire you because you have the qualities and qualifications for the position and the company.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by Phasad1913
I think the phrase "playing the race card" in and of itself is insenstive and is indicative of the larger problem of dismissal of race related issues that are important to us and not to others. When I hear people say "so and so are playing the race card" it bothers me becasue who are they to say, as I assume they mean, that a person's perception that race is the central issue of a particular situation is less than valid or real? That by itself highlights the oblivion and nonchalance that a lot of people who have the luxury of a larger population with which THEY identify relative to our smaller population with often a smaller voice live in.
I'm sincerely sorry to have offended you. I was seeing red after the thread about the Congressman, and that was the first phrase I thought to use. Obviously, I should have thought a little harder.

I think it's a disgrace that ANY politician uses his or her power to save his or her things, and hangs the rest of the population out to dry. I think that Susan Smith is a waste of DNA, and photos of the lake where she drowned her children should be in her cell, not photos of her precious children. She needed a scapegoat, and chose the one which would rile the locals the most. And as for OJ, I feel that he's cupable to some extent (if not completely), but I also think that Nicole's family used his connections to the max.

I place nurses aides in peoples' homes. If I had a dime for every time I've heard, "I'm not a racist, but my mother..." I could retire tomorrow. I've heard things that have so appalled me, I've called the authorities.

Yet, I love how some of these same people just love Oprah, Montel, and the athlete of the moment! It's really time that the hypocrisy ends.

[Phasad1913]

I'm sincerely sorry to have offended you

Oh, I apologize. I wasn't referring specifically to you. I just took the opportunity to speak on something that has bothered me for some time.

[starang21]

the only way a white person could possibly understand the racial dynamics and truly know what it is to walk in a person of color's shoes is to travel to a country where

a. they are the severe minority
b. the racial climate is similar to america

[Phasad1913]

Yet, I love how some of these same people just love Oprah, Montel, and the athlete of the moment! It's really time that the hypocrisy ends

and this is what I am talking about. This sort of strange hypocrisy. It shows how people who are racist on the not-so-overt level but who effect people everyday and don't even see it! Meanwhile, when a person talks about how they feel about things like this, they're told in so many words that they're overreacting or somehow making these things up. Its just a matter of people not being able to relate to the plight or feelings of others and that fact being the cause of the dismissive attitudes.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

I think also since so many people identify actions based on race, they are quick to defend their own. If a black person does something, there are going to be dumb hicks who are like 'silly black people,' and so suddenly, if your a black person, your a murderer, cause one other black person is, so its kind of second nature to hope for their innocence for your own sake.

well, I say silly niave hicks!

[Tickled Pink 2]

Originally posted by ztawinthropgirl

Along the lines with Susan Smith, I don't think it was a racial issue. I believe it was just a crazy woman doing something unimagineable. She had to think of a description of someone that didn't look like any of the people in Union because everyone knows everyone in Union.

With OJ Simpson, I believe he was the one that planned the whole entire crime and hired someone to commit the murder. He has bad knees from his football career. Granted, he's strong enough to beat someone up, but the way the prosecution described the crime scene, I don't believe he could have ran fast enough or been nimble enough to climb anything to get out of sight.

I don't identify anyone by their race. I don't know many people that do identify someone by his or her race, and I know a lot of people. I also live in the Southeast, which still has the stigma of having racial issues. Granted, there are areas in the Southeast that are racially-charged areas. Every geographic area of the United States has somewhere that has groups of races which don't get along or they have some kind of preconceived notion about another's race or gender. Other races have precconceived notion about white people, and so on and so on.

I identify someone by their character and personality and intelligence. I don't care what gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation you are. If you have the qualities I seek in a friend, then, so be it . . . let's be friends and go on with our lives. I may be one of the few people that have that attitude. I just see people as people. If I were hiring someone, I am not going to hire you because of your gender or race. I will hire you because you have the qualities and qualifications for the position and the company.

I don't think the murder was racial, but the fact that she implicated that a black man abducted her kids and that awful stereotypical description that she gave was. But the main point in that case - which America rightly did not overshadow with the racial point - was that she murdered her kids...(as a mother of 3 - one being an infant - I still get very emotional about this).
I can't believe you drove down the road. I would've gotten ill.

And I think you're right about OJ.

I spent most of my childhood in a verrrrry small town in SC (big culture shock after leaving NY)with one stoplight. When I was a teen, I remember loosing a ring during a play and going to the customer service booth for help (Charleston). I was talking my head off and the man behind the glass looked right through me as if I wasn't there. We call it "the stare" (the philosophy that 'you are nothing - therefore I see nothing') and growing up - were used to it. And this was in 1989. In 1991 or 1992, my husband - then boyfriend - went there with our college choir. At the hotel, my hubby was trying to get assistance in finding our rooms. The person (I think he was the janitor, but I can't remember - 3 kids'll do that to you) looked right thru him as if he wasn't there and refused to respond. Being from Brooklyn, he thought the guy didn't hear him and kept pressing the issue. I had to explain to him what the "stare" was.

Things must've changed alot in the past 10+ yrs in SC, but I doubt it. I applaud you, however on not being that way.

[AchtungBaby80]

I agree with whomever said it's all about prior experience. Of course I don't understand why minorities can be quicker to point out a racial issue than I (as a white, middle-class, Southern girl whose family is about as white bread as it gets) would--but that's because I haven't had the experiences that they've had. I think in some areas, like the one where I'm from, people are moving away from all-out discrimination to just pretending that race issues/differences/whatever don't exist...which is probably just as bad, in a way.

[starang21]

Originally posted by AchtungBaby80
pretending that race issues/differences/whatever don't exist...which is probably just as bad, in a way.

it is, because it marginalizes the experience

[ztawinthropgirl]

Yes, the small towns in South Carolina do have a problem with racial attitudes. It's almost like they've never seen someone from another race. The town my parents live in has a chapter of the KKK in it, and everyone that grew up there seems to know where they meet. They were proud they knew where the KKK met. We didn't because we weren't from there and were appalled (not surprised) at the fact this wretched little town had a KKK chapter there. Plus, we just didn't care where they met. We just wished they'd go away.

I am surprised you had a bad experience in Charleston because it's more racially mixed. But, honestly, I don't find the fact that Susan Smith blamed a black man was racial. I mean she could have drawn from a hat what the person looked like. I just do not like it when people draw the race card whenever it's convenient. Granted, I am caucasion and believe like you should treat everyone like you want to be treated. I also realize not everyone believes that. It's just like I believe those people with higher financial status and those with higher authority bear a greater burden to society due to their fortunate gain in finances and power. There are those who do not believe that either.

I am not here to trivialize racism because I admit it does exist within areas all over this nation. It happens in New York between people just like it happens in South Carolina. What do you think gangs do? Most gangs consist of a majority of one race or another, and they gang up on rival gangs with a different ethnicity. It's just like all Southerners don't walk around barefoot and pregnant, while eating chitlins and dirt, then, turning around to check on the moonshine brewing. The northeast and other parts of the country are not necessarily any more socially advanced than the southeast. Southerners are branching out and infiltrating other parts of the country and vice versa.

We all experience things differently, and I will admit I just don't understand why we can't all treat each other with respect, no matter the race, religion, or gender. I will also admit I don't understand what it's like to be another race because I will be white until the day I die. I am proud of my race but I don't think I am any better than a black person, asian, etc. All we can do is listen to one another and accept each other as a person not certain race, gender, religion person. Yes, I am one of those d*mn liberals. :p

[Tickled Pink 2]

Originally posted by ztawinthropgirl
Yes, the small towns in South Carolina do have a problem with racial attitudes. It's almost like they've never seen someone from another race. The town my parents live in has a chapter of the KKK in it, and everyone that grew up there seems to know where they meet. They were proud they knew where the KKK met. We didn't because we weren't from there and were appalled (not surprised) at the fact this wretched little town had a KKK chapter there. Plus, we just didn't care where they met. We just wished they'd go away.



slight hijack: They used to have marches down the center of the town where I grew up. The only grocery store there was owned by one of it's most vocal members.

end slight hijack

[ztawinthropgirl]

Tickled Pink,

When my parents first moved to where they live now, the KKK had a march about a month after they moved up there. I was like dear God! I was a naive 18 year old and a freshman in college. I didn't realize the KKK even still existed because I thought they broke up way back when. Guess they're still alive in podunk towns. I about had a wreck because I saw some of them standing in the First Baptist Church's parking lot taking off their costumes.

end my highjack! :)

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by ztawinthropgirl
I am not here to trivialize racism because I admit it does exist within areas all over this nation. It happens in New York between people just like it happens in South Carolina.

I'm glad you posted this.

[ztawinthropgirl]

Thanks, DSTCHAOS

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ztawinthropgirl
Tickled Pink,

When my parents first moved to where they live now, the KKK had a march about a month after they moved up there. I was like dear God! I was a naive 18 year old and a freshman in college. I didn't realize the KKK even still existed because I thought they broke up way back when. Guess they're still alive in podunk towns. I about had a wreck because I saw some of them standing in the First Baptist Church's parking lot taking off their costumes.

end my highjack! :)

In a way I almost wish that the KKK was active up here... it'd be so handy with the guys in deserving of a severe shit-kicking openly identifying themselves with costumes ;) A visual identifier of blinding ignorance is so much easier than waiting for some tool to spout his stupidity...

[ztawinthropgirl]

Deleted because we got the situation settled! :)

[Tickled Pink 2]

^^^^^
What happened? Did I read something wrong??? I thought he was calling the KKK guys stupid, saying that it would be easier to identify them with the sheets than to wait for them to say something stupid. Did I miss something?? :confused:

And here I was about to post a X days and counting that a thread about race did not go up in flames.

ZTAwgirl - I don't think you offended anyone....

????????:(

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ztawinthropgirl
RACooper,

Glad to have the endorsement.

I now know why people leave GreekChat and never come back. They simply have better things to do with their lives, and they grow up. People can't have a position on things that may or may not be politically correct without being called stupid. I guess I can go register for my stupid sign now that RACooper has called me on the carpet about my stupidity.

I never meant to offend anyone of any race because I am tired of the race card being pulled every time it's convenient. I understand racism still exists in all parts of this nation and world. I am not going to apologize for having an opinion that may be different from someone else's. No one else has to, so why should I?

Guess you didn't understand the post... ztawinthropgirl I was pretty much saying what Tickled Pink 2 read into the post.

Basically I was lamenting the fact that the raging racists are more covert up here, and that the silly white sheets would be ever so handy in idenitfying those who deserve the hockey stick to the groin.

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally posted by Tickled Pink 2
^^^^^
What happened? Did I read something wrong??? I thought he was calling the KKK guys stupid, saying that it would be easier to identify them with the sheets than to wait for them to say something stupid. Did I miss something?? :confused:

No...that's how I read it, too. :confused:

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by ztawinthropgirl
RACooper,

Glad to have the endorsement.

I now know why people leave GreekChat and never come back. They simply have better things to do with their lives, and they grow up. People can't have a position on things that may or may not be politically correct without being called stupid. I guess I can go register for my stupid sign now that RACooper has called me on the carpet about my stupidity.

I never meant to offend anyone of any race because I am tired of the race card being pulled every time it's convenient. I understand racism still exists in all parts of this nation and world. I am not going to apologize for having an opinion that may be different from someone else's. No one else has to, so why should I?


LOL. You misunderstood, but that happens sometimes on message boards. :)

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by RACooper
Guess you didn't understand the post... ztawinthropgirl I was pretty much saying what Tickled Pink 2 read into the post.

Basically I was lamenting the fact that the raging racists are more covert up here, and that the silly white sheets would be ever so handy in idenitfying those who deserve the hockey stick to the groin.

Yep. :) The "good ol boys" are as active but less visible in a more traditional sense.

This was just another case of message board misinterpretation. No harm and no foul.

[ztawinthropgirl]

Sorry! I misread! I apologize! My bad! I agree the KKK people are stupid!

[hoosier]

'Overpromotion'
Here's a fascinating story originally from England's Daily Mail:

A black police bodyguard who protected the Duchess of Cornwall has won $70,000 [Australian, or around US$53,000] compensation after suing Scotland Yard for "over-promoting" him because of political correctness.

Sgt Leslie Turner--the first black personal protection officer to guard the royal family--will receive the "racial discrimination" payout after reaching an out-of-court settlement with London's Metropolitan Police.

His representatives argued he landed the prestigious job as Camilla's bodyguard only because he was black.

It was claimed that as a result of being over-promoted and not receiving proper training and support, Sgt Turner made mistakes which led to him being re-assigned.

This suggests a tantalizing line of legal attack for opponents of "affirmative action" in American higher education. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that, at least for the next 22_1/2 years, "diversity" is a "compelling" enough reason to justify discriminating at the margins against people of pallor. But what if a black student were to sue, claiming he had been admitted to, say, Harvard and done badly there because he was not held to the same high standard as other students?

"Used with permission from OpinionJournal.com, a web site from Dow Jones & Company, Inc."

[USCTKE]

I dont see where there is a huge racial seperation in South Carolina. I have lived my entire life outside of Charleston and some of my best and oldest friends are black. Maybe it is because the high school I went to had a majority of black students. I have friends who are "semi-racists" not because they were taught growing up to hate black people or whatever just because of their own personal experiences with people of that race (long complicated story that involved the death of a friend)...I have noticed a bigger racial seperation in people that I know from other states.

[Lady of Pearl]

To even get into Harvard one has to pass the same tests as anyone else, race is a factor that may be taken into consideration. Now, if the student fails how can he blame Harvard for not preparing him for the standard of his own education let alone use his race as the determining factor. He has to pass or fail on his own merit, the standard is there, he has to apply himself and open a book!

[teena]

Originally posted by starang21
the only way a white person could possibly understand the racial dynamics and truly know what it is to walk in a person of color's shoes is to travel to a country where

a. they are the severe minority
b. the racial climate is similar to america

I think for the most part, many of the posters on GC are fairminded individuals (maybe because of the diversity of the student body at college). The ones with the serious issues wont post or participate in an honest discussion on race. They will sit back in the cut, with hate in their hearts, never saying a word. As far as I am concerned, they are the most lethal.

But to respond to what Starang said....that is the absolute positive truth. I was in the military for a while and did a one year tour in Korea. As a black woman, I was absolutely amazed at the response of the Caucasion(sp) soldiers to racism against them. The store keepers would sometimes refuse to sell to soldiers or would overcharge along with hostile stares a general rudeness. They were really offended and confused as to why the South Koreans were so hostile to them (they were hostile to all soldiers. Many of the Koreans in our specific area had never come in contact or seen non Koreans). Ironically, these same soldiers could be seen walking through the countryside yelling "WHY DON'T YOU ALL SPEAK ENGLISH":confused: . We would get briefings on how to interact with the Nationals and the soldiers would be emotional (almost teary eyed) recounting altercations with the nationals. Anywway, when I can back stateside, the most down, coolest Caucasion people I would run into had done a tour in Korea. I even had a section Sergeant who stepped in on a racial issue (He cut the fool on my behalf....I loved him to death).

BTW.....I always believe that OJ did it, Micheal Jackson did it, R Kelly did it. I dont believe in upholding wrong because of race.

Racism is still an issue here in the US. We still really refuse to deal with it.

[PiKA2001]

Back to the original post on this thread talking about OJ Simpson. I don't think that it's a race issue on how he got off the hook, it's a fame issue. Same as Robert Blake...He had a hitman kill his wife. I love it how those two were found "innocent" during the state criminal trials yet were found guilty during the civil trials. It just shows that if you have the money you can do whatever you want.

[USCTKE]

it's a fame issue

exactly a famous person is probably a 100 times more likely to get away with a crime (or get a easier sentence) than a normal person (although I am sure Ray Carruth would disagree with me)

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by teena
I think for the most part, many of the posters on GC are fairminded individuals (maybe because of the diversity of the student body at college).

Racism is still an issue here in the US. We still really refuse to deal with it.


America is still very racially segregated. That applies to our colleges, places of worship, workplaces and families.

The importance of "racial" diversity has been replaced with cultural, regional, social class and religious diversity. People overwhelmingly live in bubbles and surround themselves with like minded and similarly situated others.

Like you said racism (and discrimination) is still an issue in the U.S. People refuse to deal with it because racism has a different manifestation than in years past and people have been throwing THE R WORD around carelessly. When you even have racial and ethnic minorities denying that racism exists, or saying that they have never experienced racism and wish everyone would get over it, why wouldn't nonminorities also question its validity? This stuff IS rocket science sometimes and not everyone is concious and observant of their social world.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by PiKA2001
Back to the original post on this thread talking about OJ Simpson. I don't think that it's a race issue on how he got off the hook, it's a fame issue. Same as Robert Blake...He had a hitman kill his wife. I love it how those two were found "innocent" during the state criminal trials yet were found guilty during the civil trials. It just shows that if you have the money you can do whatever you want.

The race issue with Simpson has more to do with the public's reaction to his arrest and trial:

1) The "black man-white woman dynamic"
2) The "his not guilty verdict is payback for years of injustice"

and, my favorite

3) The whites who were falling over themselves and outraged when he was acquitted.

Contrary to popular opinion, most blacks didn't view Simpson as a hero nor did they really think he was innocent. Just like how many blacks supported Rodney King's ignorant ass because of their general distaste for the police brutality of blacks and Hispanics.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by USCTKE
I dont see where there is a huge racial seperation in South Carolina. I have lived my entire life outside of Charleston and some of my best and oldest friends are black. Maybe it is because the high school I went to had a majority of black students. I have friends who are "semi-racists" not because they were taught growing up to hate black people or whatever just because of their own personal experiences with people of that race (long complicated story that involved the death of a friend)...I have noticed a bigger racial seperation in people that I know from other states.

You're right, there is racial separation everywhere. "Huge" is a subjective and unnecessary descriptive/distinction when talking about race issues.

Some of your best and oldest friends being black has really nothing to do with whether or not there's a huge racial separation in S.C.

[Taualumna]

Teena,

I "complained" that Hong Kongers were "hostile" to me, even though I look just like them. Things just are "different" in Asia. For example, waitstaff would stand by your table, almost glaring at you while you're paying for your dinner. They seemed so impatient to me. At least the service charge is included...This only happens even at some of the higher end restaurants. Privacy isn't something more traditional Asians believe in...:(

[Phasad1913]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
. Just like how many blacks supported Rodney King's ignorant ass because of their general distaste for the police brutality of blacks and Hispanics.

LOL. Exactly.

[Tom Earp]

IS anyone else getting fed up with The Race Card being thrown out everytime someone is not elected or accepted?

In todays Local News Paper, the Race Card was thrown because a African-American was not selected to the Head of The County Court.

If a race of people do not wanted to be deemed as such then dont make a reason for being judged as such.:(

It does get tiresome.

Hell, I am a Minority anymore not the Great White Hope as some so profess.:rolleyes:

White Male.
Over 35.
Divorced.
Working.
Not on Welfare.
No Kids.
Drive a sensible auto.
Dont live above My means.

I dont have a vision card and try to use it at an ATM when it is not supposed to for that purpose.:mad:

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by Tom Earp

In todays Local News Paper, the Race Card was thrown because a African-American was not selected to the Head of The County Court.

Do you know the other circumstances surrounding this decision? Or do you know why AA feel that way about this particular incident? Their view could be valid or not. You didn't give us much to make a judgment on.

Originally posted by Tom Earp
If a race of people do not wanted to be deemed as such then dont make a reason for being judged as such.:(

Goes to show that you really don't understand the plight of the AA and maybe you should ask questions like why do AA or better yet why do SOME AA feel a certain way and maybe you can better understand where they are coming from. Who said that AA did not want to be "deemed as such" ? I love being an AA and so does every AA thatI know. So that statement is false!

Originally posted by Tom Earp
It does get tiresome.

You are soooooooooo right!!! Try being a MINORITY period in a racist and chauvinistic society. How must they feel?!

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
IS anyone else getting fed up with The Race Card being thrown out everytime someone is not elected or accepted?

In todays Local News Paper, the Race Card was thrown because a African-American was not selected to the Head of The County Court.

If a race of people do not wanted to be deemed as such then dont make a reason for being judged as such.:(

It does get tiresome.

Hell, I am a Minority anymore not the Great White Hope as some so profess.:rolleyes:

White Male.
Over 35.
Divorced.
Working.
Not on Welfare.
No Kids.
Drive a sensible auto.
Dont live above My means.

I dont have a vision card and try to use it at an ATM when it is not supposed to for that purpose.:mad:


I understand your grammar well enough to respond with this: :rolleyes:

BTW, whites are the ones who started using the term "race card." If you're tired of the "race card" being used, start by getting rid of that annoyingly stupid title for all issues (valid or not) dealing with race in AmeriKKKa.

Other than that, white privilege generally allows you the ability to lend credibility to issues of race in the eyes of mainstream AmeriKKKa. If you say there's a race issue, discussions begin. If you say there isn't a race issue, there is no discussion. As a white male, you will never quite be the minority because you will always yield the most power in this KKKountry. That's called the intersectionality of race and gender. Have a blessed evening.

[Tom Earp]

AmeriKKKa.

I am sorry for Your thinking, but That Wording is used by a few White Racist, not every White Person as You may so suggest.

No, I did not Know That The Race Card was Used By Whites as all I see is some like You and others bring In The Race Card!

Everything is the Race Card when a AA is not accepted to a School because they did not have the GPA, or there was not a AA who was not chosen for a position.

If YOU have that Much Hatred, then, that is Your Personell Problem, Not everyone elses!:(

Sorry, I have AA Friends, Fraternity Brothers Who I welcome In My House anytime, can You say the same? :confused:

As I was Taught By An Uncle when I was young, "The Word NIGGER" was derived from the Nigre River area of Africa, meaning an area where people were darker than.

Never tell Me that the White man of America brought Slaves over from Africa to America. Were They Used, Yes. Did Many stay where they were because they were treated well by many, Yes. Not everyone is the same or do You disagree with that!


Most were Brought by Dutch Traders and Got Them From Other African Tribes for $$$ (MONEY)!

Your AA gets overwhelming.:eek:

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
AmeriKKKa.

I am sorry for Your thinking, but That Wording is used by a few White Racist, not every White Person as You may so suggest.

No, I did not Know That The Race Card was Used By Whites as all I see is some like You and others bring In The Race Card!

Everything is the Race Card when a AA is not accepted to a School because they did not have the GPA, or there was not a AA who was not chosen for a position.

If YOU have that Much Hatred, then, that is Your Personell Problem, Not everyone elses!:(

Sorry, I have AA Friends, Fraternity Brothers Who I welcome In My House anytime, can You say the same? :confused:

Once again you do not understand the plight of the AA and the thoughts behind what "We" deem as to be "racial bias(es)" in this country. I cannot speak on behalf of the whole race, but I can say that something is not "racial" based on 1 particular incident. When something has been labeled as such it is because of the history or precendence that has been set or because there has been a pattern of "when a AA is not accepted to a School because they did not have the GPA, or there was not a AA who was not chosen for a position." When there has been a pattern then that is an issue that needs to be addressed. Wouldn't you say? NO you don't understand, because as a WHITE MALE you haven't seen that happen in your community. Or have you?

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
Once again you do not understand the plight of the AA and the thoughts behind what "We" deem as to be "racial bias(es)" in this country. I cannot speak on behalf of the whole race, but I can say that something is not "racial" based on 1 particular incident. When something has been labeled as such it is because of the history or precendence that has been set or because there has been a pattern of "when a AA is not accepted to a School because they did not have the GPA, or there was not a AA who was not chosen for a position." When there has been a pattern then that is an issue that needs to be addressed. Wouldn't you say? NO you don't understand, because as a WHITE MALE you haven't seen that happen in your community. Or have you?

Yes I have as a Police Officer and a Human Being. I have delt with this for many Years as a Business Owner.

You wont give Me Credit Cause I am Black. No Ass Whole, I dont give anyone Credit.

I as A Police Officer Did Deal with all Peoples and the only thing I was worried about was the breaking of The Law. I never gave a Damn What The Color Was, I did My Job. I was very Well Known in The Black Community for being Fair and This is How I Was.

I am still the same way today and Have the respect of AA.
Did You Know White Rubs Off?:rolleyes:

A Person Who pays their Way is not looked down on, only the ones who think they are owed!

I made My Way as You and others did.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
AmeriKKKa.

I am sorry for Your thinking, but That Wording is used by a few White Racist, not every White Person as You may so suggest.

No, I did not Know That The Race Card was Used By Whites as all I see is some like You and others bring In The Race Card!

Everything is the Race Card when a AA is not accepted to a School because they did not have the GPA, or there was not a AA who was not chosen for a position.

If YOU have that Much Hatred, then, that is Your Personell Problem, Not everyone elses!:(

Sorry, I have AA Friends, Fraternity Brothers Who I welcome In My House anytime, can You say the same? :confused:

As I was Taught By An Uncle when I was young, "The Word NIGGER" was derived from the Nigre River area of Africa, meaning an area where people were darker than.

Never tell Me that the White man of America brought Slaves over from Africa to America. Were They Used, Yes. Did Many stay where they were because they were treated well by many, Yes. Not everyone is the same or do You disagree with that!


Most were Brought by Dutch Traders and Got Them From Other African Tribes for $$$ (MONEY)!

Your AA gets overwhelming.:eek:


We have a live one here, folks......

I certainly hope "AA" refers to either Alcoholics Anonymous or Affirmative Action.

I never said that EVERY white person did anything. I said that whites started using the ridiculous term "race card." LOL.

Everything is NOT the "race card" and that terminology is dumb. Plain and simple. LOL. Discrimination is based on outcome and not intent. If the OUTCOMES of practices are discriminatory against women, racial and ethnic minorities, the disabled...that's what the issue is. That doesn't mean that all claims of racism and discrimination are accurate, it means that people have a right to question them. Contrary to popular opinion, most racist and discriminatory practices never get called out. It takes a lot of time and effort to highlight everything that is perceived as racist (or sexist...or ageist) or discriminatory. Most minorities (including women, the elderly, and the disabled--we're talking about power constructs here) would rather just live their lives, and pray that they get just rewards, than sit around thinking about racism and discrimination everyday. I do agree that there are times when people of ALL "races" bring race into a topic when it shouldn't be brought in. However, charges of racism and discrimination are difficult to prove whereas you seem to think that filing such claims are the only thing on people's minds.

Uh...congrats on having Alcoholics Anonymous/Affirmative Action friends and frat brothers. There are racists who intermingle, date and marry interracially all the time. Surely you should bake your OWN cookies because I won't pat you on the back for the "accomplishment" of having AA friends. Like you're doing the world a favor.

I don't care about the slave trade, which every well read person knows was fueled by economic concerns and not "racism." I'm talking about the present and you're talking about the past. LOL...what's the point of having Alcoholic and Affirmative friends if you still see issues of race through a slave trade lens. Education is key, people, and pretending to be color blind so you won't have to SEE what's really going on out here is lame.....

We're all overwhelmed by Alcoholics and Affirmative, Tommy...surely....:rolleyes:

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Yes I have as a Police Officer and a Human Being. I have delt with this for many Years as a Business Owner.

You wont give Me Credit Cause I am Black. No Ass Whole, I dont give anyone Credit.

I as A Police Officer Did Deal with all Peoples and the only thing I was worried about was the breaking of The Law. I never gave a Damn What The Color Was, I did My Job. I was very Well Known in The Black Community for being Fair and This is How I Was.

I am still the same way today and Have the respect of AA.
Did You Know White Rubs Off?:rolleyes:

A Person Who pays their Way is not looked down on, only the ones who think they are owed!

I made My Way as You and others did.

Sir, I'm gonna have to ask you to step out of your bubble. Keep your hands where I can see them and step slowwwwwwwwly out of your bubble.

We all agree that merit is great, Tommy. What you seem NOT to understand is that AmeriKKKa isn't a pure, individualistic meritocracy. If it were a pure meritocracy (with no one's ability to build social and human capital being cut down OR built up based on membership in a particular race, gender, or socioeconomic group) we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. No one ever said that racial and ethnic minorities should sit on their asses and collect royalty checks. Although, sitting on your ass and getting things based on privilege has worked for some members of the privileged groups for years. It's only a problem when OTHER people want group-based privilege.

Generalizations can only be made when you have valid information from which to generalize. Try reading some books and social science journals. It will add to your experiences as an officer of the law.

[starang21]

brains are sexy

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by starang21
brains are sexy

How was your 21st?

[starang21]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
How was your 21st?

i got soooooooooo wasted!!!!!

whoooooo!!!!!

:eek:

[mulattogyrl]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
what's the point of having Alcoholic and Affirmative friends if you still see issues of race through a slave trade lens. Education is key, people, and pretending to be color blind so you won't have to SEE what's really going on out here is lame.....

Well said. Most of what you say is well said, but I really like this one.

[twhrider13]

I'm not exactly sure if this question really fits into the discussion or not, but I didn't want to start a new thread on it because I don't think it's that different. I'm taking Survey of Black Literature in America this semester, and my professor has brought up a lot of interesting questions and things I'd never thought of before. Today in class, we discussed how, back in the days of slavery, black women were at a double disadvantage because of both their race and their gender.

We all know that both racism and sexism still persist. It's not like either were confined to the 1860's. So, my question is, for black women, do you think you encounter more racism or more sexism today? Or would you say it's more intertwined? Like, do you feel that any discrimination that's directed at you is more because you're "black," or more because you're "a woman," or more because you're "a black woman?" I know it's hard to say on something like that, but I was just curious. Sorry for the mini-hijack, by the way. :)

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by twhrider13
Or would you say it's more intertwined? Like, do you feel that any discrimination that's directed at you is more because you're "black," or more because you're "a woman," or more because you're "a black woman?" I know it's hard to say on something like that, but I was just curious. Sorry for the mini-hijack, by the way. :)

For me, I think that it is intertwined. I think it is all 3 "black" "woman" and "black woman". I feel like before anything else I am perceived as being BLACK first and then a woman second. I cannot explain why I feel this way. Sometimes I have to step "outside" of myself and evaluate things from an outside perspective and ask what if questions, because I don't know if my feelings are valid or if I am being paranoid.

i think that this is a good question. I think that you will be amazed at the responses that you will get.

[Tom Earp]

One must look unto themselves for inner biasises and see where they are coming from, before critisicting others for their Biases, as everyone has their biases.

Based on their upbringing, life experences and, life styles is the main decission, not others. You do and act as people percieve You!

Do not hide behind a facade of what You want peple to think of You. Just be your self and not a BEM!:eek:

[mulattogyrl]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
One must look unto themselves for inner biasises and see where they are coming from, before critisicting others for their Biases, as everyone has their biases.

Based on their upbringing, life experences and, life styles is the main decission, not others. You do and act as people percieve You!

Do not hide behind a facade of what You want peple to think of You. Just be your self and not a BEM!:eek:

I don't know what a BEM is, but the rest of what you said here makes sense. It's true that you can only see the world through your eyes.

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by twhrider13
I'm not exactly sure if this question really fits into the discussion or not, but I didn't want to start a new thread on it because I don't think it's that different. I'm taking Survey of Black Literature in America this semester, and my professor has brought up a lot of interesting questions and things I'd never thought of before. Today in class, we discussed how, back in the days of slavery, black women were at a double disadvantage because of both their race and their gender.

We all know that both racism and sexism still persist. It's not like either were confined to the 1860's. So, my question is, for black women, do you think you encounter more racism or more sexism today? Or would you say it's more intertwined? Like, do you feel that any discrimination that's directed at you is more because you're "black," or more because you're "a woman," or more because you're "a black woman?" I know it's hard to say on something like that, but I was just curious. Sorry for the mini-hijack, by the way. :)

That's an interesting question. I honestly don't think I could separate what is racism and what is sexism, because they both are intertwined.

On the flip side, I've had a lot of opportunities offered to me because I'm a Black female, so its killing two birds with one stone in some ways, for those who count that sort of thing.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by twhrider13
I'm not exactly sure if this question really fits into the discussion or not, but I didn't want to start a new thread on it because I don't think it's that different. I'm taking Survey of Black Literature in America this semester, and my professor has brought up a lot of interesting questions and things I'd never thought of before. Today in class, we discussed how, back in the days of slavery, black women were at a double disadvantage because of both their race and their gender.

We all know that both racism and sexism still persist. It's not like either were confined to the 1860's. So, my question is, for black women, do you think you encounter more racism or more sexism today? Or would you say it's more intertwined? Like, do you feel that any discrimination that's directed at you is more because you're "black," or more because you're "a woman," or more because you're "a black woman?" I know it's hard to say on something like that, but I was just curious. Sorry for the mini-hijack, by the way. :)

That sounds like a good class.

I'm going to force myself to answer this complex question with four sentences. It will be vague and I apologize in advance:

There are time when the intersectionality of race and gender has a positive impact and times when it has a negative impact. Instead of placing it within the framework of racism, I place it within the framework of prejudice and discrimination. It's based on the interaction of racial stereotypes with gender stereotypes. This interaction is not unique to black women but it takes on a different form.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by mulattogyrl
It's true that you can only see the world through your eyes.

That's not completely true. Part of being socially aware and wanting to eradicate "the isms" means you try to see the world through the eyes of others.

[mulattogyrl]

Originally posted by twhrider13
I'm not exactly sure if this question really fits into the discussion or not, but I didn't want to start a new thread on it because I don't think it's that different. I'm taking Survey of Black Literature in America this semester, and my professor has brought up a lot of interesting questions and things I'd never thought of before. Today in class, we discussed how, back in the days of slavery, black women were at a double disadvantage because of both their race and their gender.

We all know that both racism and sexism still persist. It's not like either were confined to the 1860's. So, my question is, for black women, do you think you encounter more racism or more sexism today? Or would you say it's more intertwined? Like, do you feel that any discrimination that's directed at you is more because you're "black," or more because you're "a woman," or more because you're "a black woman?" I know it's hard to say on something like that, but I was just curious. Sorry for the mini-hijack, by the way. :)

I think it's intertwined for me too. It's really hard to separate it. I think I get more discrimation for being a 'black woman' more than anything though. But like jubilance1922 said, I haven't just received discrimation for being a 'black woman'. There have been plusses too.

[mulattogyrl]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
That's not completely true. Part of being socially aware and wanting to eradicate "the isms" means you try to see the world through the eyes of others.

You're right. The key word is 'try'.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by mulattogyrl
I think it's intertwined for me too. It's really hard to separate it. I think I get more discrimation for being a 'black woman' more than anything though. But like jubilance1922 said, I haven't just received discrimation for being a 'black woman'. There have been plusses too.

Ok, let's complicate this even more. According to your username, you're mixed. Do you think you have it as bad as full black women?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Dionysus
full black women?

Dangerous wording.

What does this mean?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by mulattogyrl
You're right. The key word is 'try'.

Trying can be more successful than people ever know.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Dangerous wording.

What does this mean?

Good Lord, you sound like my father. Yes, most black people and some white people are technically mixed with other races. But, we know what the average black person, white person, and bi-racial person looks like.

[mulattogyrl]

Originally posted by Dionysus
Ok, let's complicate this even more. According to your username, you're mixed. Do you think you have it as bad as full black women?

Yeah it's dangerous wording but let's go there anyway, LOL, because it's an interesting question. You know, I really don't know. I feel like I do, but I am reminded that I am 'different' by my 'full black women' friends a lot. I think this is unfortunate, because I don't feel different, yet to them, I am. Maybe they have a point. It's something I wonder about though.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Dionysus
But, we know what the average black person, white person, and bi-racial person looks like.

Do we? Sometimes.

The racial categories that America has created mask within-group variations. I have random people ask me if I am bi-racial, East Indian or Hispanic all the time. I always thought I just looked like a light skinned black girl but people from other cultures and parts of the country are apparently used to different things.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by mulattogyrl
Yeah it's dangerous wording but let's go there anyway, LOL, because it's an interesting question. You know, I really don't know. I feel like I do, but I am reminded that I am 'different' by my 'full black women' friends a lot. I think this is unfortunate, because I don't feel different, yet to them, I am. Maybe they have a point. It's something I wonder about though.

That IS unfortunate. My friends and I would constantly remind you that you're the same kind of black as the rest of us. ;) We range in shades of blackness and life experiences. That's one of many things that makes being black and within the African Diaspora so wonderful.

[honeychile]

May I just say that you have all blessed me with your many viewpoints! I've forwarded a lot of this to my cousin, and she's very interested in it, too. She doesn't admit it, but I think she's reading the thread regularly - she quoted something to me that I hadn't said! (HI MONICA!!!!)

Ladies, again, my thanks. I owe you!

[Phasad1913]

I definitely feel discrimination based on being a black woman and have never been in any altercation or had any negative experience (at least that I am aware of) due to my being a woman alone. I believe it all has to do with the social stigma that has always been particularly attached to being black in this country. Black women in particular are singularly viewed and treated differently in this society than any other group of women due to our being the most different both in terms of our physical appearances as well as our unique history in America. As I stated in another thread, history in this country not only shapes the perspectives and expectations of black Americans, but also the perceptions of other groups too. Therefore, if it is historic and tradition to view black females in a certain way by the majority, then that is how we will be viewed unless and until certain measures are taken by all to change those perceptions. By the same token, black females in particular and black people in general will also have certain reactions and feelings that are rooted in the same traditions and history. The uniquness in how we feel as black women will change when all facets and members of the society change their views, perceptions and actions.

[Tom Earp]

If You always consider Yourself a Victim, then You will be a victim.:(

But, if You consider Yourself a winner, You Will be!:cool:

If You wait for everyone to give You something, You will not get it!

But if You work for it , It Is Yours. And No One Can Take it away from You no matter who You are!:cool:

You can take pride in it because You earned it, Not because it was given to You.:D

[AKA_Monet]

^^^
Tom,

Congratulations, you have just written the most coherent and cogent item since I've known you on GC...
;)

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by twhrider13
So, my question is, for black women, do you think you encounter more racism or more sexism today? Or would you say it's more intertwined? Like, do you feel that any discrimination that's directed at you is more because you're "black," or more because you're "a woman," or more because you're "a black woman?" I know it's hard to say on something like that, but I was just curious.

I encounter more "isms" of being a woman of African descent, than one over the other. The two are intertwined for me personally.

Where I reside in the US there are a lot of stereotypes about how women of African descent "ought" to be, rather than just letting them be who they want to be. Not saying other women of do not go through this, it is just been my personal experience and my personal opinion.

So like, at Macy's or Nordstrom's or places like that, and I decide to purchase a "St. John's Knit" for an event, I am put through a "wringer" that I "feel" no other person should ever have to go through and I know it is because of my skin color and the fact that I would like to have a St. John's Knit in a size they question me about--and I'm on the small side...

But no way could they think that I could purchase and have the bargaining power to actually have the need to make that kind of purchase, but there is this complete, utter, upsetting ignorance displayed by some people.

And the only color these folks ought to be concerned about is the color $$$$.

Call it "shopping while being a black woman"...

You know Oprah had the same problem in Paris with the Hermes people... Guess they got assed out...

And it is so upsetting and humiliating to have to go through something like that or even be accused of being unable to purchase certain things.

A conversation with my husband has now resorted to straight walking out of stores when I get stupidity in customer service. I can deal with about 2 minutes of stupidity, but after that, I have decided to use my money elsewhere. Sorta like the "lunch counter with Rosa Parks in the Department stores".

And if you go to the Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. board on GC, they have a whole nice discussion on the treatment of customers at Walmart--just do a search.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
If You always consider Yourself a Victim, then You will be a victim.:(

But, if You consider Yourself a winner, You Will be!:cool:

If You wait for everyone to give You something, You will not get it!

But if You work for it , It Is Yours. And No One Can Take it away from You no matter who You are!:cool:

You can take pride in it because You earned it, Not because it was given to You.:D

:rolleyes: "Earn" is such a relative term in America.

Who said anything about being a victim? No one. It is your white male privilege that makes you think your input in this discussion is required to either validate or discredit the topic.

I know the women currently posting in this thread are a group of accomplished and hard working, educated women. Spare us the song and dance.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Phasad1913
I definitely feel discrimination based on being a black woman and have never been in any altercation or had any negative experience (at least that I am aware of) due to my being a woman alone.

I encounter a degree of sexism almost everyday. It's difficult to know whether it is heightened by my being a black woman.

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
I encounter a degree of sexism almost everyday. It's difficult to know whether it is heightened by my being a black woman.

I agree wholeheatedly! There is definitely a difference between being a "woman" and being a "black woman". And despite what others may believe it is not paranoia and it is DEFINITELY not made up. The crazy thing is... I feel that the "MAJORITY" actually made this distinction more overt. Thats just my belief.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
I agree wholeheatedly! There is definitely a difference between being a "woman" and being a "black woman". And despite what others may believe it is not paranoia and it is DEFINITELY not made up. The crazy thing is... I feel that the "MAJORITY" actually made this distinction more overt. Thats just my belief.

Well, on an individual level, it is sometimes paranoia and made up. On a societal level, these things definitely exist.

Whatever the case may be, the validity of this issue doesn't depend on people like Tom Earp's opinion.

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Well, on an individual level, it is sometimes paranoia and made up. On a societal level, these things definitely exist.

I am surprised to hear you say "Well, on an individual level, it is sometimes paranoia and made up" When you say individual level do you mean 'generally' or you specifically. SOMETIMES yes but for the most part I don't think that is the case. Why do you feel that way?

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
I am surprised to hear you say "Well, on an individual level, it is sometimes paranoia and made up" Why do you feel that way?

Why would one not feel that way? On the individual level it can be quite hard to tell why you might be treated differently. If you're always looking through the lens of racism, it could be easy to mistake sexism, ageism, classism, lookism, or whatever other -isms that are out there for racism. -Isms aside, it might just be your demeanor or personality.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
I am surprised to hear you say "Well, on an individual level, it is sometimes paranoia and made up" When you say individual level do you mean 'generally' or you specifically. SOMETIMES yes but for the most part I don't think that is the case. Why do you feel that way?

Don't be surprised.

Anyone who really knows me knows that I don't give 100% credibility and validity to anything. I know you don't know me. :)

Individual-level is the opposite of society-level. A lot of this stuff is based on perception of prejudice as opposed to materialized outcomes of discrimination like educational and economic deprivation. At the individual-level, people do imagine things or make assumptions so we can't pretend that every claim will be valid. At the society-level, we have millions of people from which to generalize so we don't have to rely on more individual-level accounts. It's one thing to say that 10 people are imagining things or just have bad personalities (as Dionysus pointed out). But, chances are millions of people can't have such an active imagination or just bad personalities (as Dionysus pointed out) on a semi-regular basis.

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by Dionysus
Why would one not feel that way? On the individual level it can be quite hard to tell why you might be treated differently. If you're always looking through the lens of racism, it could be easy to mistake sexism, ageism, classism, lookism, or whatever other -isms that are out there for racism. -Isms aside, it might just be your demeanor or personality.

I believe that there is a clear difference because people will say things like can you be more urban (to an female actress, which means neck rolling gum poppin' etc). Perfect example recently on Oprah the actress who played Terrance Howard's wife in the movie Crash said that she went to a reading; the part was for a highly (I cannot remember if it was a black woman or woman in general) intelligent woman with a degree, etc, etc. Someone raised the question as to if that was realistic to have a "black woman" in the role

I have spoken openly and honestly in groups and had panel discussions with people of all backgrounds to help highten awareness when it comes to race issues. Many people of the "Majority" have said things like we can be too aggressive and sometimes intimidating. The feeling was that the majority of black women that they had encountered were this way.

When I made the earlier post it was not because I am paranoid. Although, honestly speaking I have had to question my own thoughts and reactions to certain things. I ALWAYS think first before reacting or responding. The statment was made because I have had discussions and read articles and from my encounters that seems to be how people felt and that is my "belief" based on my encounters with others.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
When I made the earlier post it was not because I am paranoid. Although, honestly speaking I have had to question my own thoughts and reactions to certain things. I ALWAYS think first before reacting or responding. The statment was made because I have had discussions and read articles and from my encounters that seems to be how people felt and that is my "belief" based on my encounters with others.

This is the only part of your post that even remotely addresses what Dionysus and I posted. However, I am still wondering how it really addresses what Dionysus and I typed. :)

ETA: "Individual-level" is a construct and it doesn't necessarily pertain to YOU. Everyone has the potential to be paranoid and imaginative. This doesn't mean that all of YOUR experiences are based on paranoia and imagination.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
I believe that there is a clear difference because people will say things like can you be more urban (to an female actress, which means neck rolling gum poppin' etc). Perfect example recently on Oprah the actress who played Terrance Howard's wife in the movie Crash said that she went to a reading; the part was for a highly (I cannot remember if it was a black woman or woman in general) intelligent woman with a degree, etc, etc. Someone raised the question as to if that was realistic to have a "black woman" in the role


I'm not really talking about more blatant instances, such as the one above. I'm talking about instances when you know that you're being treated differently, but don't have much concrete evidence that points to why.

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Individual-level is the opposite of society-level. A lot of this stuff is based on perception of prejudice as opposed to materialized outcomes of discrimination like educational and economic deprivation. At the individual-level, people do imagine things or make assumptions so we can't pretend that every claim will be valid. At the society-level, we have millions of people from which to generalize so we don't have to rely on more individual-level accounts. It's one thing to say that 10 people are imagining things or just have bad personalities (as Dionysus pointed out). But, chances are millions of people can't have such an active imagination or just bad personalities (as Dionysus pointed out) on a semi-regular basis.

I agree with that. I do not think that we disagree on this issue at hand. I think that my original statement was misinterpreted. As I previously stated SOMETIMES yes.

Originally posted by Dionysus
Why would one not feel that way? On the individual level it can be quite hard to tell why you might be treated differently. If you're always looking through the lens of racism, it could be easy to mistake sexism, ageism, classism, lookism, or whatever other -isms that are out there for racism. -Isms aside, it might just be your demeanor or personality.

I am not always looking through the lens of racism. Maybe the better term would have been racial prejudice when I was referring to "Black women".

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by Dionysus
I'm not really talking about more blatant instances, such as the one above. I'm talking about instances when you know that you're being treated differently, but don't have much concrete evidence that points to why.

Well then in that case that is paranoia. Concrete evidence is the operative word here. As I said in an earlier post evidence is crucial before making such a judgment.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
I agree with that. I do not think that we disagree on this issue at hand. I think that my original statement was misinterpreted. As I previously stated SOMETIMES yes.


I am not always looking through the lens of racism. Maybe the better term would have been racial prejudice when I was referring to "Black women".

:confused:

Then why did you ask me why I felt this way?

The issue of paranoia and imagination isn't unique with the issue of race. It also applies to sexism, ageism, etc. Dionysus and I are basically saying that whatever lens you are looking through will shape your perception. This does not automatically make your experiences invalid as far as racism or sexism are concerned. It means that these issues aren't 100% black or white (no pun intended).

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
Well then in that case that is paranoia. Concrete evidence is the operative word here. As I said in an earlier post evidence is crucial before making such a judgment.


Lacking concrete evidence automatically makes something paraonia? :confused: Racial prejudice and sexism are often very subtle and without concrete evidence. Even discrimination based on race, age, gender, sexual orientation or disability are difficult to prove because most institutions don't keep record of their discriminatory practices.

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
:confused:

Then why did you ask me why I felt this way?

The issue of paranoia and imagination isn't unique with the issue of race. It also applies to sexism, ageism, etc. Dionysus and I are basically saying that whatever lens you are looking through will shape your perception. This does not automatically make your experiences invalid as far as racism or sexism are concerned. It means that these issues aren't 100% black or white (no pun intended).

I just wanted some clarification on what you meant when you said "individual level" if you meant you specifically, me specifically, or generally an individual. Then Dionysus went on to make a statment that said "your" demeanor and your "personality" so then that is when I went on an on about the examples to clarify explain my encounters. Sorry for the confusion :) In short, I just wanted you to expound on what you were talking about when you said individual. Thanks ma'am. :)

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Racial prejudice and sexism are often very subtle and without concrete evidence. Even discrimination based on race, age, gender, sexual orientation or disability are difficult to prove because most institutions don't keep record of their discriminatory practices.

Yes, that may very well be true, but before you can call somebody out on it evidence would be key otherwise you could be finding yourself picking your face up off the floor. They may not keep record (of course not), but a person can keep their own records of the goings-on that you may view as discriminatory. Once that is done you can look at the evidence (the bigger picture) and then make the judgment.

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS

The issue of paranoia and imagination isn't unique with the issue of race. It also applies to sexism, ageism, etc. Dionysus and I are basically saying that whatever lens you are looking through will shape your perception. This does not automatically make your experiences invalid as far as racism or sexism are concerned. It means that these issues aren't 100% black or white (no pun intended).

I agree with that! Maybe I am just not doing a good job of communicating my thoughts. :confused:

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
I just wanted some clarification on what you meant when you said "individual level" if you meant you specifically, me specifically, or generally an individual. Then Dionysus went on to make a statment that said "your" demeanor and your "personality" so then that is when I went on an on about the examples to clarify explain my encounters. Sorry for the confusion :) In short, I just wanted you to expound on what you were talking about when you said individual. Thanks ma'am. :)


We are talking about individuals, in general.

[F8ful_n_durance]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
We are talking about individuals, in general.

After all of that. I know that now. Thanks;)

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by F8ful_n_durance
Yes, that may very well be true, but before you can call somebody out on it evidence would be key otherwise you could be finding yourself picking your face up off the floor. They may not keep record (of course not), but a person can keep their own records of the goings-on that you may view as discriminatory. Once that is done you can look at the evidence (the bigger picture) and then make the judgment.

Sometimes.

If this issue was based on concrete (read: actualized and materialized--something that others can see with their own eyes or touch with their hands) evidence and as cut-and-dry as you are making it seem, these -isms wouldn't be so widely debated in this society.

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
:rolleyes: "Earn" is such a relative term in America.

Who said anything about being a victim? No one. It is your white male privilege that makes you think your input in this discussion is required to either validate or discredit the topic.

I know the women currently posting in this thread are a group of accomplished and hard working, educated women. Spare us the song and dance.

I am sorry for You for feeling this way as it was not intended the way You interpreted it.

Yes, I am sure all of the Ladys are very hard working and have gained position within their Community and work place. I so do admire them no matter what You may think.:cool:

I try to respect people no matter what tone of skin but for the person they are. If they act ignorant, then what is one supposed to think.

Dont act like a BEM ergo one wont be treated like a BEM.

[DSTCHAOS]

Whatever, dude.....

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Whatever, dude.....


Is this Your way of being Anti White:o

So, You dont think I can post on this thread, then why do You post on threads that have nothing to do with Black Ideas and Ideals?

Dont be that narrow.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Is this Your way of being Anti White:o Oh my

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Is this Your way of being Anti White:o

:eek:

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Is this Your way of being Anti White:o

So, You dont think I can post on this thread, then why do You post on threads that have nothing to do with Black Ideas and Ideals?

Dont be that narrow.

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/lblackwell/2004/10/30/rretarded.jpg

[Lady of Pearl]

All our knowledge has its origings in our perceptions- this is a quote by Leonardo daVinci. If you think someone has slighted you, if you think you are being mistreated because of your race, if you think you see something that is not there- then that is your perception. One can make a case for just about anything even my perception of this post!:)

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by Lady of Pearl
All our knowledge has its origings in our perceptions- this is a quote by Leonardo daVinci. If you think someone has slighted you, if you think you are being mistreated because of your race, if you think you see something that is not there- then that is your perception. One can make a case for just about anything even my perception of this post!:)

True, but asking a question is wrong or when someone tells Me I have no Business posting on this thread?

Where is the equality of that?

Remember Dr. Martin Luther Kings Washington Speach in Washington at The Lincoln Memorial so many Years back.

[starang21]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
True, but asking a question is wrong or when someone tells Me I have no Business posting on this thread?

Where is the equality of that?

Remember Dr. Martin Luther Kings Washington Speach in Washington at The Lincoln Memorial so many Years back.

it has nothing to do with you being white, and everything to do with you being decrepit and idiotic..

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by KSig RC


http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/lblackwell/2004/10/30/rretarded.jpg

Indeed.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by starang21
it has nothing to do with you being white

Correct.