Looters in New Orleans

[KillarneyRose]

Anyone else get steamed after seeing pictures of people looting in New Orleans? Taking food is one thing but boxes of Timberlands? Televisions? Stereos?

I think those vultures should be shot on sight. :mad:

[DolphinChicaDDD]

I completely agree with you. The food, water, etc I have no problem with anyone taking. Maybe some clothes- maybe, depending on how much you take. But there TVs, 30 football jerseys, beer(come on people, its just gonna dehydrate you more), radios, I have a problem.

I think the scariest looting, however, are the people who took all the guns from the Wal-Mart and other sports stores. Those people are now shooting at officers and others who are trying to help them. The newspapers were reporting of rooving bands of gunmen around the city. Now that is a shame because at some point, its going to get too dangerous for volunteers/rescue workers to get around the city and they'll have to pull out leaving people behind who otherwise could have been helped.

[AGDee]

I just posted in the Hurricane Katrina thread... Just read that they are shooting at the military helicopters that are evacuating the sick and elderly from the Superdome so the helicopters had to stop.

This appears to be what starvation, dehydration and desperation do to some people.

[kddani]

Anyone who shoots at gun at those trying to rescue people deserves to be shot on sight themselves.

[Rudey]

Why would you shoot at rescuers?

What is the logic behind that even??

-Rudey
--We need to declare martial law

[wrigley]

In one news report there was a cop pushing around a shopping cart full of stuff just like every other looter.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by Rudey
Why would you shoot at rescuers?

What is the logic behind that even??

-Rudey
--We need to declare martial law


When one of the former midshipmen we used to sponsor told me that when he was flying Navy relief missions in Indonesia he carried a gun, I immediately thought "What kind of idiot would try to hurt someone who is providing aid?"

I guess I overestimated people. Remind me not to do THAT again!

[RedRoseSAI]

Many (not most, but many) of the people who ignored the evacuation order are the poorest of the poor, and of that population, some are of an evil persuasion. We're talking about the bottom rung of N.O. society. A gangbanger is not going to turn into a well-behaved good Samaritan in a time of crisis.


Edited for spelling

[The Truth]

Originally posted by Rudey
Why would you shoot at rescuers?

What is the logic behind that even??

-Rudey
--We need to declare martial law

It has already been declared, Rudey.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by The Truth
It has already been declared, Rudey.

I did a search and found this:
"Contrary to many media reports, martial law has not been declared in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, because no such term exists in Louisiana state law[4]. Rather, a state of emergency has been declared, which does give some powers similar to that of martial law. On the evening of August 31, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin did declare "martial law" (in name at least) in the city and said that "officers don't have to worry about civil rights and Miranda rights in stopping the looters."


The thing is that on Good Morning America this morning they talked about how President Bush was considering declaring martial law. Maybe that's on the federal level or something...

-Rudey

[Kevin]

The way I understand it, Louisiana is under the Napoleonic Code system of laws rather than the Common Law system that we have in the other 49 state. There exists no provision withinin their system of law to declare martial law.

I feel sorry for the lawyers that only know that system. They're going to have a hell of a time finding work.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by wrigley
In one news report there was a cop pushing around a shopping cart full of stuff just like every other looter.

But WHAT were they pushing around? That's what's important.

I saw pics of Walmart security guards with baskets of clothes (I saw hangers so I'm assuming) and diapers.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ktsnake
The way I understand it, Louisiana is under the Napoleonic Code system of laws rather than the Common Law system that we have in the other 49 state. There exists no provision withinin their system of law to declare martial law.

I feel sorry for the lawyers that only know that system. They're going to have a hell of a time finding work.

If they can speak French they could always try Quebec....

As for Martial Law - the provision does not exist... but the provision to call in the military to render aid to the civil athourities does... unless Louisiana has modified that provision under the Napoleonic Code.

[OleMissGlitter]

I am from New Orleans born and raised. Anyway, I pity those poor people who are looting. They honestly have nothing and they are looking for something they can grab on to and have as their own. I don't like to see them looting for TVs and other big things but food, well if I was hungry and desparate I might do the same thing.

I really think this shows just how poor some people are in our own USA. I think from now everyone should ONLY support local USA charities.

Hey does anyone know if any other countries are going to send aid or if the actors who did the Tsunami Relief stuff are going to do the same for Hurricane victims?

I'm just happy my family is alive from all of this...

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
When one of the former midshipmen we used to sponsor told me that when he was flying Navy relief missions in Indonesia he carried a gun, I immediately thought "What kind of idiot would try to hurt someone who is providing aid?"

I guess I overestimated people. Remind me not to do THAT again!

Well, the Aceh area was filled with rebels and pirates (yes, pirates). The strait of malacca is one of the most dangerous sea way in the world when it come to pirates, even though it's one of the most important route for international trading. Then you have a breakdown of law and order where the police service for the province was completely wiped out.

There was a story where the Indonesian military was escorting NGOs into rebel areas and the rebels started shooting at the convoy. The Chief of Staff of the Indonesian military was nearby and heard the gunshots. The guy picked up a rifle and with his staff, he ran to the area and started to shoot back. Imagine the Chief of Staff for a military being in the frontline shooting back at the enemy.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by OleMissGlitter
Hey does anyone know if any other countries are going to send aid or if the actors who did the Tsunami Relief stuff are going to do the same for Hurricane victims?
Venezuela have offered to donate $1 million. Heard the European are considering giving their oil reserve to offset the shortage. I know Canada have offered some help, not really sure what. The rest are waiting to see what kind of help is needed. They're waiting for the US government to officially ask what kind of goods and services are required.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Venezuela have offered to donate $1 million. Heard the European are considering giving their oil reserve to offset the shortage. I know Canada have offered some help, not really sure what. The rest are waiting to see what kind of help is needed. They're waiting for the US government to officially ask what kind of goods and services are required.

Canada has offer to send both our civilian and military disaster response teams, as well as Search & Rescue teams and equipment - only problem is we are still waiting for the go ahead from Washington.... the pressure on the PM to do something has gotten to the point were the PM will be calling Bush today to ask for permission to send the troops and volunteers in...

[moe.ron]

Yup, the Bush administration have not asked for help. The American Red Cross hasn't asked for help either.

I know is not much, but the tsunami survivor in Aceh have held prayer services for the Katrina victims.

[AGDee]

Harry Connick Jr is organizing a concert

Connick was born and raised in New Orleans, developing his music in jazz bands and at clubs in the French Quarter. His father, Harry Connick Sr., served as district attorney of New Orleans for 29 years before retiring in 2003.

"Everything that I have professionally, and so much of what I have personally, is because of this great, fair city," Connick said. "And to see it being drowned like this is almost unbearable."

He will join a televised fundraiser, A Concert for Hurricane Relief, Friday on NBC, MSNBC and CNBC (8 p.m. ET) that also will include performances by Wynton Marsalis and Tim McGraw.

[LightBulb]

That's great what the other countries and people are doing so far to help.

Donating to Red Cross (http://www.redcross.org)

I'm sure they could use blood donations too...

[madmax]

I saw a show(Dateline or 48 hours) after 9/11 on charities. The jist of the show was to point out how little money actually donated to a charity actually goes to the victims. I think charities are only required to spend 10% of their donations on the victims. They can spend as much as 90% on overhead. The head of the charity can be driving a Bentley and paying himself 7 figures.

Does anyone know what percentage of Red Cross donations actually go to victims?

[moe.ron]

Snipers at the Charity Hospital in Nola. Saw it on BBC News.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by wrigley
In one news report there was a cop pushing around a shopping cart full of stuff just like every other looter.

Well, New Orleans cops aren't exactly known for being pinnacles of morality, so this really isn't that surprising . . . .

[Tom Earp]

Everyone is worried at this point. Food and Water are life sustaining.

To have people stand there after the actual first day saying they are not getting Help. What The Hell? You just dont move so much food and medicine and water over night!

It is time that some Countrys Give USA as We give $$$$$ for anything.

No one ever thought this would happen. It Did!

LXA Has a Site that is set up for any GLO to connect to to Donate anything to the needy. Check some other Threads.

Once again, K C is in the fore front doing and giving. But these asswholes in Atlanta gouging on Gas is uncalled for.:mad:

Hell, only 3.06 when I came Home tofday and going Higher from what I hear.:(

So Much For Economy!:rolleyes:

[Coramoor]

Originally posted by madmax
I saw a show(Dateline or 48 hours) after 9/11 on charities. The jist of the show was to point out how little money actually donated to a charity actually goes to the victims. I think charities are only required to spend 10% of their donations on the victims. They can spend as much as 90% on overhead. The head of the charity can be driving a Bentley and paying himself 7 figures.

Does anyone know what percentage of Red Cross donations actually go to victims?

I seem to remember a few charities getting in big trouble for this after 9/11. Particularly the one hosted by all the celebs and by the redcross.

Something like a billion was collected, but next to nothing was actually distributed until it was taken to court or the media let it loose.

[ZTABullwinkle]

My mom works for the Red Cross. After 9/11, the President of the Red Cross was fired/resigned/was asked to leave (whatever you want to call it) specifically for the reasons stated before. If you go to the Red Cross website, you can designate where the money goes (i.e. Hurrican Relief). From what my mom said....the money WILL go to Hurricane Relief.

I am pretty sure there will be some scrutiny over who is giving what (in the way of charities). Especially after 9/11. I am sure there are even some scammers out there raising money for "hurricane relief" only to put it into their pockets. Nowadays, nothing will surprise me....

[AlphaSigOU]

From an e-mail I received from a fellow Masonic lodge brother. It's prolly already making the rounds of the net, so don't shoot the messenger:

Dear Community Leaders,

After watching nearly 4 hours of coverage of the terrible disaster on our gulf coast a sad day for America becomes an international looking glass into our strength's and weaknesses in the face of a disaster of epic proportions. As CNN and Fox and other media outlets broadcast these grim images for all the world to see, I find that beyond the obvious sadness one feels for the loss of life and property there was one glaring example of a battle that has raged for eons in our great country. Over the years as America has strived to show the world we are a genuinely kind and caring nation made up of good, decent and peaceable people we display on the worlds television sets an inner demon that we cannot seem to overcome.

As I watched the coverage unfold there was one particular event which I found extremely disturbing in the face of all the suffering and loss. Looting.

Who are we these people that simply decide that it is their turn to dine at the fatted calf? Reel after reel of film showing people casually shopping through the department stores helping themselves to items that will serve no purpose for their survival needs, expensive children's toys, video games and general items of luxury. Strolling along as though they were Christmas shopping on a Sunday afternoon without a care other than how they were going to manage to carry all of their ill gotten gains to their flooded homes. Most didn't even attempt to cover their faces out of fear of being recognized as though if family and friends happened to see them on TV it would be received as a badge of honor. Just incredible, is the only way I could describe what I was watching.

And how did these people plan to explain to their children how they came about the $400 Barbie motorized beach car, or the $1200 wide screen TV, or the Game Boy or any of the other pilfered goods that belonged to someone else up to the time they took possession? My guess, honesty.

Surely any child of age to be able to appreciate these gifts from the flood will be very aware of where they came from and, as behavior is a learned action taught by example, they too will seek their own chair at the table of unearned wealth. And while the looting and theft was just about as bad an example of ethics as there is, there is an even more profound issue at hand. While I am sure there is the odd example here and there throughout the ravaged area of the gulf coast that was decimated by Katrina, I failed to notice on any of the media outlets that were filming on scene, a person of Latin decent, or Asian, or Caucasian or middle eastern background. Of the hundreds of looters proudly displaying their actions only one race was represented. And these people have for years tried to convince societies all over the world that they should be accepted as equals and treated with the same level of respect as those that we didn't see in the Wal-Mart with a shopping cart loaded with other people's merchandise. How dare Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the other so called leaders of civil rights target those of us who abide by the rules and morality of a decent civilization as unjust bigots. Were they to spend half as much time preaching to their own as they do to me then maybe the media would have had to search elsewhere for some sensational scoop.

How do they expect me to accept with blind faith what I am not blind to? Each generation teaches the next what is right and what is wrong and until one generation decides that enough is enough the world will view the entire race by what they see day in and day out from those that choose to disgrace themselves and their kind. How sad it is indeed that America is populated with a subculture such as this.

Signed, Concerned

[TheEpitome1920]

I'm watching Primetime and they mentioned 2 photos and how they protrayed the looters. One shows and African American male wading through water with a bag and the caption mentions him looting. Another pictures shows a White male and female and says that they "found" food.


Why the difference? Did they both not take items that didn't belong to them? A large number of the people who are left in N.O. are Black/poor and have been protrayed like animals in my opinion. In desperate times who knows what you'd do to stay alive...

[ZTABullwinkle]

Originally posted by AlphaSigOU
From an e-mail I received from a fellow Masonic lodge brother. It's prolly already making the rounds of the net, so don't shoot the messenger:

Can I agree with messenger??? I am sorry to admit this, but I had noticed this also. I can understand taking food and diapers, but the expensive items (shoes, video games, etc)?!?! It makes me madder than hell that these people almost seem proud of what they are doing, along with seeing younger people participating.

I am not sure what can be done (the police definitely have their hands full there....) about this. Personally, I would go with the shoot on sight policy.

I am sure we are going to hear Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton crying "racism" about this. But the proof is in the video!!


Now...I am not saying that every Black American is participating in this activity. Let me not generalize it that way.

I am now ready for the flaming to begin!

[Kevlar281]

Local news just reported looting in Houston.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by Kevlar281
Local news just reported looting in Houston.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck... will they ever learn?!?!? :mad:

[33girl]

Originally posted by Coramoor
I seem to remember a few charities getting in big trouble for this after 9/11. Particularly the one hosted by all the celebs and by the redcross.

Something like a billion was collected, but next to nothing was actually distributed until it was taken to court or the media let it loose.

I have two friends who have been affected. Any $ or anything I donate will go directly to them. I have no desire to send $50 to the Red Cross only to have them spend $100 trying to get me to donate again. I wish all charities would cease and desist from putting everyone who gives them a damn penny on their mailing lists. I gave $ to the Salvation Army after 9/11 and they haven't left me alone since.

My advice is to give through your church or another organization, so you won't be continually harassed with more requests for funds.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
Why the difference? Did they both not take items that didn't belong to them? A large number of the people who are left in N.O. are Black/poor and have been protrayed like animals in my opinion. In desperate times who knows what you'd do to stay alive...

In my opinion it should be called looting - even if they are taking food and water... looting is looting, stealing is stealing - and it should be described as such. Now does that mean I think those taking food and water are animals? Nope. People looting food and water stocks from stores (not each other) are acting on survival mode... not greed.

As for the other looters taking merchandise, or people setting fire to businesses, or those shooting at hospitals and rescuers, or those raping and killing - they are all animals regardless of skin colour or social background.

Now I have a question: A number of times the news stations (BBC, CNN, CBC) reported that the members of the National Guard have been fired on while conducting rescue and relief operations... isn't the National Guard armed? and if so why did they not neutralize the threat to the operations either through direct or indirect action?

[CanadianTeke]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
I'm watching Primetime and they mentioned 2 photos and how they protrayed the looters. One shows and African American male wading through water with a bag and the caption mentions him looting. Another pictures shows a White male and female and says that they "found" food.


Why the difference? Did they both not take items that didn't belong to them? A large number of the people who are left in N.O. are Black/poor and have been protrayed like animals in my opinion. In desperate times who knows what you'd do to stay alive...


Here are photo's that are stirring up all the controversy. Personally i think it probably has to do with the different sources of the photo's more than it has to do with racism. Yahoo says on their site that they take the captions and photos as is from the different wire services and don't edit either, so they are really just the messenger of the photos.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/01/photo_controversy/story.jpg

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
I'm watching Primetime and they mentioned 2 photos and how they protrayed the looters. One shows and African American male wading through water with a bag and the caption mentions him looting. Another pictures shows a White male and female and says that they "found" food.


Why the difference? Did they both not take items that didn't belong to them? A large number of the people who are left in N.O. are Black/poor and have been protrayed like animals in my opinion. In desperate times who knows what you'd do to stay alive...

On another message board I frequent, someone said that the black man MUST be looting because he had a garbage bag that seemed to be full of stuff. :eek: :mad: :eek: What the......

So one is still presumed "looting" because he has a garbage bag instead of a nice Jansport backpack? So during a major crisis, it is the type of bag a person has that will make the difference between being labeled a criminal vs a victim? Lord help us all....or me rather because I haven't owned a backpack in years.

I shake my head at people sometimes. :(

[Rudey]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
I'm watching Primetime and they mentioned 2 photos and how they protrayed the looters. One shows and African American male wading through water with a bag and the caption mentions him looting. Another pictures shows a White male and female and says that they "found" food.


Why the difference? Did they both not take items that didn't belong to them? A large number of the people who are left in N.O. are Black/poor and have been protrayed like animals in my opinion. In desperate times who knows what you'd do to stay alive...

Well I think for the most part, people make a distinction between people breaking into a store for food and water and those going around trying to get televisions (do they even work with the water damage?). I think that was one of the problems the police have had to deal with.

-Rudey

[TheEpitome1920]

Originally posted by CanadianTeke
Here are photo's that are stirring up all the controversy. Personally i think it probably has to do with the different sources of the photo's more than it has to do with racism. Yahoo says on their site that they take the captions and photos as is from the different wire services and don't edit either, so they are really just the messenger of the photos.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/01/photo_controversy/story.jpg

I honestly disagree. I think this is another case of racial bias in the media. Why is it possible for White folks to "find" yet Black folks "loot" in a situation like this.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
I honestly disagree. I think this is another case of racial bias in the media. Why is it possible for White folks to "find" yet Black folks "loot" in a situation like this.

I'm not going to hop on the "obvious example or racism" bandwagon just yet, for three reasons:

One - two different sources, so two different guidelines for reporting on the disaster.

Two - different post times, were again changes in reporting could have been dictated as the scope of the disaster unfolds.

Three - don't know who the reports are, afterall they could be "black" or "white" or something else... and until this is know, or any of these others are know it won't be possible to place these pictures in context.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by RACooper
I'm not going to hop on the "obvious example or racism" bandwagon just yet, for three reasons:

One - two different sources, so two different guidelines for reporting on the disaster.

Two - different post times, were again changes in reporting could have been dictated as the scope of the disaster unfolds.

Three - don't know who the reports are, afterall they could be "black" or "white" or something else... and until this is know, or any of these others are know it won't be possible to place these pictures in context.

The first point you make is true; however, further digging reveals that one of the sources (AFP I think) had other pictures in which the African-American subjects were referred to as "looters" while that one picture of whites said they "found" their supplies. However . . . the photographer came forward and said that in that particular instance, the whites in the photograph had literally found the supplies they were carrying -- they had not looted them. So I don't think we can infer much from that one particular incident.

Still, I think it's pretty obvious that there's been a racial bias in all of this. Somebody in the other Hurricane Katrina thread (lifesaver?) said that he didn't think that it would have taken this long to rescue these people if they had been white. I have to agree. And I think that part of the reason that these people remaining in New Orleans have been portrayed so savagely is so that we can all feel better about the fact that they haven't been rescued yet. I know it's been proven time and time again on GC that I have a rather Marxist view of morality that most of you don't share -- but why aren't more people questioning what kind of poverty you would have to live in that would drive you to the point where you're willing to risk your life to acquire TVs and jewelry when you might not even have a house?

[BetteDavisEyes]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Well, New Orleans cops aren't exactly known for being pinnacles of morality, so this really isn't that surprising . . . .

In the defense of some of the actual good cops, they too have family & friends that need the supplies (as long as it's food, water, clothes, & baby supplies). Many of them have quit their jobs simply b/c they chose to take care of their families in this time rather than try to help protect the city. I'm not saying it's right but they had a choice to make so they chose their families. It's when I see these morons looting TV's, stereos, & jewelry that really pisses me off. That shit isn't going to get you anything right now b/c it's not needed. Food, water, & medical supplies are what's needed.

[lovelyivy84]

I came back to GC to see how folks were faring in the midst of all this tragedy. From my job at a local College, I have desperately been trying to get in touch with all the people affiliated with the school that I can. I have heard back from 2.

I am so sick over what is happening here.

A major American city just collapsed, and the residents who have managed to escape with their lives all are left with nothing. In a city where something like 30-40% of the population are at or below the poverty level, what does this mean? What is going to happen to America in the wake of this disaster? NOLA is the fourth largest port in the country, and I read that it is actually the 4th largest port int he WORLD by volume. 1.6 million people just lost everything, and insurance in those areas of the country will usually only cover wind damage to houses, leaving the rest to be covered by FEMA.

And THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE CARE ABOUT?

I have seen media pictures just like all of you and the VAST majority of looters were carrying clothes, food, batteries and water. WHO CARES whether we call it looting or finding. Fact is they had to commit theft to get their needs met.

As to reports about stealing stereos, etc, do we have ANY concrete information supporting all of this condemnation? I am not saying it is NOT happening, but I would bet that the percentage of people stealing stereos ESPECIALLY at this point is PRETTY DAMN LOW. Talking about like that's half of the god damn city is sooo beyond ludicrous.

BE mad about the robberies and rapes that are going on down there and preventing people at evacuation centers from even going to the damn bathroom. Be mad at a local and federal government that was COMPLETELY incapable of providing any means for the poorest, the elderly and the sick to EVACUATE the damn city. They told them to leave, but didnt do a damn thing to make sure they did.

Being mad that the media called people looters is BEYOND petty.

ETA: Sorry if this feels like an attack on anyone. I'm just angry about the situation, like a whole lot of people, and sometimes it feels like folks IN GENERAL think it's more important to point fingers then actually help. And pointing fingers at black people, white people, etc just feels like a HUGE avoidance of the real issues. I know that a lot of people are discussing a lot more than this, this just seems *especially* unproductive. At least no one here is blaming the victims for not leaving, when so many of them couldn't.

I hope everyone on this thread has already donated to the Salvation Army and Red Cross.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84


ETA: Sorry if this feels like an attack on anyone. I'm just angry about the situation, like a whole lot of people, and sometimes it feels like folks IN GENERAL think it's more important to point fingers then actually help. And pointing fingers at black people, white people, etc just feels like a HUGE avoidance of the real issues. I know that a lot of people are discussing a lot more than this, this just seems *especially* unproductive. At least no one here is blaming the victims for not leaving, when so many of them couldn't.

I hope everyone on this thread has already donated to the Salvation Army and Red Cross.

There are a couple of threads in Chit Chat that are much bigger than this one discussing the humanitarian side of Hurricane Katrina. This thread was started just to discuss an offshoot of the major issues -- I don't think that this is anyone's primary concern. If you're more interested in the "helping" side of things, there is a discussion going on in the Red Cross thread about that.

[lovelyivy84]

I only came back to read about how people were doing, not to post. This was the first one in recent threads when I logged in and I was pretty upset by it.

Once I saw the other topics in other forums, I edited my post. This will probably be my last post on GC.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
There are a couple of threads in Chit Chat that are much bigger than this one discussing the humanitarian side of Hurricane Katrina. This thread was started just to discuss an offshoot of the major issues -- I don't think that this is anyone's primary concern. If you're more interested in the "helping" side of things, there is a discussion going on in the Red Cross thread about that.

[The Truth]

It is definitely NOT looting. So I wish yall would get over that. If you want to rant and rave about something listen to this http://www.libera.be/files/nagin.mp3
then come back on here fussing about some doggone looting.

AND I HOPE that alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll your energy is not being put in typing on GC about the "dumb people" looting.

Can't stand it when folks take ONE issue and carrying on about it, but MISSING the REAL ISSUE. Let me tell you what the REAL ISSUE IS: LIFE.

Any questions?

[ZTABullwinkle]

Originally posted by The Truth
It is definitely NOT looting. So I wish yall would get over that. If you want to rant and rave about something listen to this http://www.libera.be/files/nagin.mp3
then come back on here fussing about some doggone looting.

AND I HOPE that alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll your energy is not being put in typing on GC about the "dumb people" looting.

Can't stand it when folks take ONE issue and carrying on about it, but MISSING the REAL ISSUE. Let me tell you what the REAL ISSUE IS: LIFE.

Any questions?

It is more than obvious that the mayor is frustrated. I can agree with many things he is saying, but not all. There are so many issues within this tragedy. Hopefully his message will not fall on deaf ears.

[Kevlar281]

The news just gave an update on some of the civil unrest at the astrodome; the police are reporting that most incidents of looting and fighting have been committed by what they referred to as the “criminal element.” Which I assume means people with prior convictions. I’m honestly impressed with the city and how they have handled the logistical nightmare of the influx of 25,000+ refugees. Interesting fact “so many refugees now live in the Astrodome that the U.S. Postal Service has issued the 77320 ZIP Code to the former professional stadium. The move makes it easier for refugees to receive letters and care packages.”

[starang21]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
I only came back to read about how people were doing, not to post. This was the first one in recent threads when I logged in and I was pretty upset by it.

Once I saw the other topics in other forums, I edited my post. This will probably be my last post on GC.

ur alive???

:eek:

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
I came back to GC to see how folks were faring in the midst of all this tragedy. From my job at a local College, I have desperately been trying to get in touch with all the people affiliated with the school that I can. I have heard back from 2.

I am so sick over what is happening here.

A major American city just collapsed, and the residents who have managed to escape with their lives all are left with nothing. In a city where something like 30-40% of the population are at or below the poverty level, what does this mean? What is going to happen to America in the wake of this disaster? NOLA is the fourth largest port in the country, and I read that it is actually the 4th largest port int he WORLD by volume. 1.6 million people just lost everything, and insurance in those areas of the country will usually only cover wind damage to houses, leaving the rest to be covered by FEMA.

And THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE CARE ABOUT?

I have seen media pictures just like all of you and the VAST majority of looters were carrying clothes, food, batteries and water. WHO CARES whether we call it looting or finding. Fact is they had to commit theft to get their needs met.

As to reports about stealing stereos, etc, do we have ANY concrete information supporting all of this condemnation? I am not saying it is NOT happening, but I would bet that the percentage of people stealing stereos ESPECIALLY at this point is PRETTY DAMN LOW. Talking about like that's half of the god damn city is sooo beyond ludicrous.

BE mad about the robberies and rapes that are going on down there and preventing people at evacuation centers from even going to the damn bathroom. Be mad at a local and federal government that was COMPLETELY incapable of providing any means for the poorest, the elderly and the sick to EVACUATE the damn city. They told them to leave, but didnt do a damn thing to make sure they did.

Being mad that the media called people looters is BEYOND petty.

ETA: Sorry if this feels like an attack on anyone. I'm just angry about the situation, like a whole lot of people, and sometimes it feels like folks IN GENERAL think it's more important to point fingers then actually help. And pointing fingers at black people, white people, etc just feels like a HUGE avoidance of the real issues. I know that a lot of people are discussing a lot more than this, this just seems *especially* unproductive. At least no one here is blaming the victims for not leaving, when so many of them couldn't.

I hope everyone on this thread has already donated to the Salvation Army and Red Cross.

I concur 1908%

It's nice to see you drop in although it is on a bad note...

Our Soror AKA2D91' was able to evacuate and is in Baton Rouge doing "fine" (meaning she's alive)--but she's lost everything in NOLA...

And one of our newest Soror Refinediva has not heard from several of her family members--including a grandparent who were unable to evacuate due to the reasons you listed.

Believe me your issues are not falling SOME FOLKS IGNORANT DEAF EARS!!!

But some folks on GC are juvenile and selfish and only see their point of view... That is just how some GC folks are and what I am seeing in many of the Hurricane Katrina threads are folks are venting because they don't know what to say. Although that should be no consolation... I just mostly think many folks who are outside of the purview of understanding NOLA and its ways are at a loss for words and are trying to say whatever comes to mind no matter how ignorant it sounds...

I hope you see my post.

And I agree with you because I'm pissed off by the same reasons as you are...

[Jill1228]

I agree! I understand taking food and water but WTF are you gonna do with a big assed plasma TV when you have no home let alone no place to plug the damn thing in

And WTF is up at shooting at relief workers. That is biting the hand that feeds you!

Anyone, regardless of race that does this needs to be taken out! :mad:

Originally posted by kddani
Anyone who shoots at gun at those trying to rescue people deserves to be shot on sight themselves.

[Kamryn]

Originally posted by Jill1228
I agree! I understand taking food and water but WTF are you gonna do with a big assed plasma TV when you have no home let alone no place to plug the damn thing in

And WTF is up at shooting at relief workers. That is biting the hand that feeds you!

Anyone, regardless of race that does this needs to be taken out! :mad:


"An eye for an eye makes the whole world BLIND." This is exactly the reason our world is in the mess it's in. We have this hit me and I'll hit you back mentality.

We don't know why people are shooting at releif workers. Remember we weren't physically there to "see" and "hear" exactly what happened. Who knows? Those same releif workers may be trying to make bargains for that same plasma TV in exchange for food. It's easy for our media to flip the script and make things appear to be what it's not. The same way they cut Kanye off after his statement. Don't be fooled.

People won't shoot unless you give them a reason to. In this case it may be self defense or a method of survival. Maybe someone is taking that "big assed plasma TV" to exchange for food, with someone who actually think they can plug the thing in somewhere, so they can feed their children. We don't know, because we're not there. We sit in the comfort of our homes watching on tv what the media wants us to see.

It's important that we don't spend our energy speaking on what we don't know, and spend it on finding ways to help. Because the same way it happened in those cities, it could have happened where you are. Maybe not a hurricane, but some other natural disaster like a blizzard or an earthquake. Who knows? I don't know where you are, but natural disasters happen everywhere and we must always remember that!

Don't allow ignorance to lead you through this world. It won't get you very far. I challenge you to think outside of the box. Remember we don't know. They're there, and we're here...

[kafromTN]

Originally posted by Kamryn
We don't know why people are shooting at releif workers. Remember we weren't physically there to "see" and "hear" exactly what happened. Who knows? Those same releif workers may be trying to make bargains for that same plasma TV in exchange for food. It's easy for our media to flip the script and make things appear to be what it's not. The same way they cut Kanye off after his statement. Don't be fooled.

People won't shoot unless you give them a reason to. In this case it may be self defense or a method of survival. Maybe someone is taking that "big assed plasma TV" to exchange for food, with someone who actually think they can plug the thing in somewhere, so they can feed their children. We don't know, because we're not there. We sit in the comfort of our homes watching on tv what the media wants us to see.



Did you watch O'Reilly factor the other night?

The dude on there used the same excuse you just did about "using a big screen t.v. to bargain for food" what kind of idiot thinks a t.v. will do them any good in the city with no electricity? It's a damn cop out. That dude is a looter, pure& simple, I don't care if he's black, white, asian, purple, blue or whatever, he is a criminal.

Is it ok for people to steal jewlery& cars?
No, it's not. I totally understand food, water, clothing [in moderate amounts] but not t.v.'s, stereo equipment, jewlery, other electronics, that is theft& I have no sympathy for people like that. People keep defending the looters like they didn't do anything wrong& that's the problem, they did & they need to accept responsibility for their actions.

-Mark

[Kamryn]

Originally posted by kafromTN
Did you watch O'Reilly factor the other night?

The dude on there used the same excuse you just did about "using a big screen t.v. to bargain for food" what kind of idiot thinks a t.v. will do them any good in the city with no electricity? It's a damn cop out. That dude is a looter, pure& simple, I don't care if he's black, white, asian, purple, blue or whatever, he is a criminal.

Is it ok for people to steal jewlery& cars?
No, it's not. I totally understand food, water, clothing [in moderate amounts] but not t.v.'s, stereo equipment, jewlery, other electronics, that is theft& I have no sympathy for people like that. People keep defending the looters like they didn't do anything wrong& that's the problem, they did & they need to accept responsibility for their actions.

-Mark

No, I didn't watch O'Reilly factor the other night. But I did use common sense.

If you had a 2 year old child who hasn't eaten anything in days and someone walks up to you with a loaf of bread and some diapers, saying that they will exchange that loaf of bread and diapers for a plasma tv. You'll do what you have to do to get that plasma tv. The last thing you're thinking about is where this dummy is planning on plugging in this tv. YOUR CHILD NEEDS FOOD, AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS. At this point, I don't care what anyone says, it's about survival. As I stated before, we're in the comfort of our own homes not really knowing what's going on... The media shows us what they want us to see. Don't be an educated fool.

I know what looting is. I saw it when I stood outside of my home in the middle of the Rodney King LA Riots.

Mark, I never mentioned whether or not I felt that it had anything to do with race. My initial post clearly explained that we do not know what exactly is going on, so instead of using energy criticizing what's going on, try to HELP! If you're not going to help, then that's also up to you.

But now that you mention it, I do feel that race has an integral role in this situation. As stated over and over on this board, I find it hard to understand how our president could find all the necessary resources to help internationally, but not in his own backyard. In addition, it's quite interesting how articles mentions black people "looting" and white people "finding". All that is happening now is the truth is beginning to surface, like the bodies of deceased corpses are beginning to surface in New Orleans. People are speaking out and they're speaking the truth. Truth hurts sometimes, but reality is not always painless.

Don't get defensive, I'm just stating the facts. You're entitled to your own opinion. Our country of "freedom" gives you the right of free speech as well. We may agree to disagree.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Kamryn
No, I didn't watch O'Reilly factor the other night. But I did use common sense.

If you had a 2 year old child who hasn't eaten anything in days and someone walks up to you with a loaf of bread and some diapers, saying that they will exchange that loaf of bread and diapers for a plasma tv. You'll do what you have to do to get that plasma tv. The last thing you're thinking about is where this dummy is planning on plugging in this tv. YOUR CHILD NEEDS FOOD, AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS. At this point, I don't care what anyone says, it's about survival. As I stated before, we're in the comfort of our own homes not really knowing what's going on... The media shows us what they want us to see. Don't be an educated fool.

I know what looting is. I saw it when I stood outside of my home in the middle of the Rodney King LA Riots.


I'd saying being an apolgist is as bad as an educated fool... because the "scenario" you described sounds pretty BS to me - one the effort required to grab a plasma screen TV would be a hell of a lot less that aquiring food or diapers (or a subsitute). Besides it's not like the looting happened only after days of frustration or desperation - it happened pretty much immediately... I mean just look at the Webcam site I posted in the Chit Chat thread about the hurricane.

If your under the impression that the looting was a media manufactured or inflated problem then I'm sorry to say you are the one looking like the educated fool.

[Kamryn]

Originally posted by RACooper
I'd saying being an apolgist is as bad as an educated fool... because the "scenario" you described sounds pretty BS to me - one the effort required to grab a plasma screen TV would be a hell of a lot less that aquiring food or diapers (or a subsitute). Besides it's not like the looting happened only after days of frustration or desperation - it happened pretty much immediately... I mean just look at the Webcam site I posted in the Chit Chat thread about the hurricane.

If your under the impression that the looting was a media manufactured or inflated problem then I'm sorry to say you are the one looking like the educated fool.

The plasma tv was an object used FIGURATIVELY to describe a "scenario" that may be occuring. Maybe not with a plasma tv, but none the less, it could have happened with jewelry or whatever object you want to replace that particular object, or like you say "a substitute." :rolleyes: I didn't know I had to be specific.

My understanding and EXPERIENCE with the media, as a public relations specialist, my background as an activist and my EDUCATION, etc. reinforces my opinion of the media and how the media changes your perception of what you are seeing. Things aren't always as they appear to be.

In that little world that you live in, everything me be prim and proper. But I live in the REAL world, where propaganda exists.

To you I may seem like an educated fool. Educated I am, but not a fool. You see, I think of all of the possibilities. I don't allow myself to be led by our media. I THINK for myself. Only lazy people sit back and let the media tell them what to think. As I said before, things aren't always what they APPEAR to be. I'm not saying that no one is looting. Maybe they are. But we can't generalize it and say that people aren't looting for a reason. One of the primary reasons is survival. I can't speak on behalf of everyone and neither can you.

It has been said that, if you argue with a fool it's hard to tell who the fool is. I'm not arguing with you. I stated my opinion to help enlighten your mind and stimulate your intellect. You're entitled to your own opinion as well.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Kamryn
My understanding and EXPERIENCE with the media, as a public relations specialist, my background as an activist and my EDUCATION, etc. reinforces my opinion of the media and how the media changes your perception of what you are seeing. Things aren't always as they appear to be.

In that little world that you live in, everything me be prim and proper. But I live in the REAL world, where propaganda exists.

Well golly gee Mr. Wizard, propaganda in media thats unpossible :rolleyes:

I know that the media changes how we percieve things, given the fact that it is the medium in which we first learn of events. I'd say the educated fool is one who knows this, and there for dismisses the media - instead of the wiser person who realizes there is propaganda and bias and decides to look past it by using the media as a information tool, and not being a tool of the media.

Yes when I heard about the looting from the media my first thoughts tended to centre on the fact that the most sensational stories are the ones that grab the limelight - so I decided to do some checking myself into primary or unaltered sources that thanks to the wonderful world of the internet we now have access to. For example you could have listened to the NOPD and Emergency Services radio via the internet, or accessed one of the sites broadcasting images from the NO via webcams. Although some of these images and broadcasts did make note of the fact that some of the looting was about survival, a very large percentage had nothing to do with survival and more to do with criminality.

The unfortunate thing is that I wasn't at all surprised; disappointed yes, but not surprised. I guess that's because I have seen the worst of humanity, and realize that ever community or society has the animal or scum element - only scope of the element is really in question.


To you I may seem like an educated fool. Educated I am, but not a fool. You see, I think of all of the possibilities. I don't allow myself to be led by our media. I THINK for myself. Only lazy people sit back and let the media tell them what to think. As I said before, things aren't always what they APPEAR to be. I'm not saying that no one is looting. Maybe they are. But we can't generalize it and say that people aren't looting for a reason. One of the primary reasons is survival. I can't speak on behalf of everyone and neither can you.

It has been said that, if you argue with a fool it's hard to tell who the fool is. I'm not arguing with you. I stated my opinion to help enlighten your mind and stimulate your intellect. You're entitled to your own opinion as well.

My only hope is that you take your own advise and actually look into things before accepting the preconceptions that you are most comfortable wiin th. While I expected there to be looting (there is after ever disaster) I was shocked by the levels being reported in the media - so I decided to check by other means to see if the levels were being exagerated... and unfortunately I don't think they were - if anything it was so commonplace that it wasn't all that sensational for reporters anymore.

Hopefully through some desire to defend/strengthen your opinion you'll do some digging yourself - because while it may not change your opinion at least you'll have a better grasp of the situation.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Kamryn
People won't shoot unless you give them a reason to.
Unfortunately, that's just not true.

And, blaming "the media" for all of our problems is just too easy.

[RACooper]

Anybody else catch the shoot-out on BBC? Covering the firefight between the looters that attacked the contractors at the levee and the NOPD?

Zero-tolerance is right - it looks like the even shot the guy surrendering...

[kafromTN]

I read an article in our newpaper and the person directing the repair of the levees for the Army Corps of Engineers in New Orleans is doing it from here in Memphis. He even said [paraphrasing here] that he only expected the water to top the levees, not have the levees break. So I guess y'all's assumption that if a levee is topped it will automatically break is incorrect. [I will try to locate that article online for you if I can]


Also I saw a friend last night who was down there for a bachelor's party& were supposed to return Sunday morning but the Amtrak train decided not to run, they were told it would be running when they checked on it the day before. They stayed in the French Quarter in a hotel and he told me that the hotel staff left& they were up in their rooms waiting for the rescue personnel to come get people out of that area. They decided to leave Wednesday b/c random people were starting to take over the hotel. They grabbed the shoer curtain rods to use as some sort of protection& to push things floating in the water out of their way. They were able to get out b/c they took maps out of the phonebook& sent text messages to find out what roads were open still. They were stopped by police on a bridge and told to wait for a bus that was coming by, they squeezed 9 guys into a bus that had 70 people already. They got to the next parrish over& were told by police at gunpoint they had nothing for them there& had to leave. They paid $200 to a guy to drive them to Baton Rouge where they flew home after getting in touch with one of the guy's relatives who had a private plane& he came and got them.

The point of all this is that I have heard from a very reliable source what's going on out there. He said what you see on the news about the looting, gun shots, robberies etc. are all true, if not worse than what's reported. So I can make my judgement based on a 1st hand source with no spin that the media gives things.

-Mark

[moe.ron]

There was reports, don't know how accurate they are, that people that was walking out of NOLA was turned back once they hit the highway. Going to try to find the story.

[Glitterkitty]

Originally posted by Rudey
I did a search and found this:
"Contrary to many media reports, martial law has not been declared in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, because no such term exists in Louisiana state law[4]. Rather, a state of emergency has been declared, which does give some powers similar to that of martial law. On the evening of August 31, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin did declare "martial law" (in name at least) in the city and said that "officers don't have to worry about civil rights and Miranda rights in stopping the looters."


The thing is that on Good Morning America this morning they talked about how President Bush was considering declaring martial law. Maybe that's on the federal level or something...

-Rudey

I am not sure about the logistics/linguistics of martial law per se, but I do know that the Mayor of NO or the governor of LA has to actually ask or request military help from the federal government. He waited a long time to do that I think. That's why troops weren't there as quickly as the media would have liked.

Back to the looter thing-shoot them on site. That's bullshit.

I heard today that a man tried to rape a 13 year old girl by the astrodome or whatever that is, and a mob killed him. Good.

[texas*princess]

After seeing images of all the looting going on, it just made me so sad. How is it possible that society came down to this?

Like KR said, it's one thing to be taking food and water, and quite another to be stealing TV's, GUNS and things of that nature. I heard reports of people in cars trying to get away from the path of the storm were being carjacked by people with guns. It's a really sad day when we get to the point where real-life society is mirroring what happened in the Tom Cruise version of "War of the Worlds" and people start turning on each other like that.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Glitterkitty
I heard today that a man tried to rape a 13 year old girl by the astrodome or whatever that is, and a mob killed him. Good.

See, I've heard about six different versions of that same story, from reputable news sources. It's going to be very hard to separate the truth from the overexaggerations (and we know how much Southerners love to exaggerate!) with stories like that, so it's probably best not to repeat them. I'm sure part of that story is true, but still...

I'm also beginning to think that having a gun on hand isn't that terrible of an idea in an event like this.

[Kevlar281]

I haven’t seen any news reports about the rape so I cant really comment. However, I have several friends who live at nearby apartment complexes who all have had their cars burglarized. Police presence in the area is through the roof and crime is still spiking. A Shell gas station near the ‘Dome has become a popular hangout so much in fact there are two squad cars parked outside twenty-four hours a day now. Six-Flags Astroworld had planned on having free admission for all refugees but later reneged on the promise because of the jump in crime in the surrounding area. A direct quote from a friend who works there “they told everyone we would be closing early and to be to your car before dark.”

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by Kevlar281
I haven’t seen any news reports about the rape so I cant really comment. However, I have several friends who live at nearby apartment complexes who all have had their cars burglarized. Police presence in the area is through the roof and crime is still spiking. A Shell gas station near the ‘Dome has become a popular hangout so much in fact there are two squad cars parked outside twenty-four hours a day now. Six-Flags Astroworld had planned on having free admission for all refugees but later reneged on the promise because of the jump in crime in the surrounding area. A direct quote from a friend who works there “they told everyone we would be closing early and to be to your car before dark.”

These people should be THANKFUL that outside states are glady taking them in and doing anything they can to help. I can't believe all of this. It's ridiculous.

[AGDee]

I think we need to keep in mind that there were reports of rape, fights, theft and aggression at the Superdome and Convention and the same people have been moved to the Astrodome and other shelters. When you evacuate a city, you evacuate everybody, not just the model citizens. There are rapes, thefts, aggression and murders in our society. Why would the people who commit those crimes behave any differently when relocated? If 2% of the population of NO were criminals, then 2% of those evacuated are. We are only going to hear about the extreme situations.

Realize that extreme stress has extreme effects on people. Inevitably, some of the people who were evacuated are mentally ill with no access to their medications. People are pushed to their limits which can cause psychotic breaks in those prone to mental illness.

[wrigley]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
These people should be THANKFUL that outside states are glady taking them in and doing anything they can to help. I can't believe all of this. It's ridiculous.

These people are also American citizens who paid their taxes at one point and time. They expected that the mayor would have an emergency plan in place as required by Homeland Security. They expected an evacuation procedure in place. They expected a governor to have a contingency plan in place if local National Guardmen are in Iraq. They expected the FEMA director to do the job he was chosen for. Also they expected that the very President who some may have voted into office not leave them at the side of the road like roadkill to be picked up four days later.

There are illegal immigrants who have gotten way better treatment than what these people who you've referred to have gotten lately.It makes me wonder what else is flying under the radar with everyone asleep at their designated post.

There is no excuse for violence in any situation. But no deserves the treatment they received by our government. EVERYONE IN GOVERNMENT DROPPED THE BALL.

When I saw that member of Spain's parliment surrounded by a National guardsmen escorted with her family quickly through the NOLA airport and there were fellow Americans being ignored that ticked me off.

[PM_Mama00]

Nowhere did I say that these people don't deserve better treatment. I think it's disgusting to, as someone said in another thread, "bite the hand that feeds you". WHY should the people in these Texas towns, such as what Kevlar described, have to live in fear now because of the hoodlums that came over with the well-deserving people? It's not fair to them. It's not fair that they could possibly paint a negative reputation for all of the "refugees" that want the help and are not acting like animals.

Yes I said animals. And it has nothing to do with race.


I understand that in these conditions people can start to go "crazy" like Dee described, but those who are caught doing these things should be held and taken back to the Superdome. Let them form their own little colony of felons. I don't think the intaking cities should have to suffer their liberty and freedom after offering a great situation of help.

[AGDee]

The hope would be that the intaking cities have police and jail space to handle it. Also, psychiatric wards! I'd bet that some of those hospitals that were such a mess had to have had some psychiatric wards. I wonder if those folks were evacuated ahead of time.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
I understand that in these conditions people can start to go "crazy" like Dee described, but those who are caught doing these things should be held and taken back to the Superdome. Let them form their own little colony of felons. I don't think the intaking cities should have to suffer their liberty and freedom after offering a great situation of help.

I definitely agree here. There are so many people -- a quarter of a million according to the last newscast I saw-- currently located in Texas cities like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Corpus Christi. I am pretty sure there are several thousand more in other states as well. I don't feel like being a victim of a hurricane is an excuse to act the way some of these people are acting. Cities are doing everything they can to help these people start new lives and it isn't fair for the people trying to help to have to deal with crime brought on by some of the refugees at the same time.

A local newscast mentioned there is a curfew at some of the shelters... does anyone know how this is actually enforced? If they are given free bus passes, and there are literally hundreds (or in some cases thousands) of refugees staying there, how is that enforced?

And this is also random, but I just noticed I used the word "refugees" at least a couple of times. It's really weird b/c before the hurricane, when I heard the word "refugees" I thought of third-world-type countries... it's just weird to use it when you are referring to people in your own country..

[The Truth]

Subject: a survivor's story: Katrina in New Orleans
i heard from my aunt last night that my cousin Denise
made it out of New Orleans; she's at her brother's in
Baton Rouge. from what she told me:
her mother, a licensed practical nurse, was called in
to work on Sunday night at Memorial Hospital
(historically known as Baptist Hospital to those of us
from N.O.). Denise decided to stay with her mother,
her niece and grandniece (who is 2 years old); she
figured they'd be safe at the hospital. they went to
Baptist, and had to wait hours to be assigned a room
to sleep in; after they were finally assigned a room,
two white nurses suddenly arrived after the cut-off
time (time to be assigned a room), and Denise and her
family were booted out; their room was given up to the
new nurses. Denise was furious, and rather than stay
at Baptist, decided to walk home (several blocks away)
to ride out the storm at her mother's apartment. her
mother stayed at the hospital.
she described it as the scariest time in her life. 3
of the rooms in the apartment (there are only 4) caved
in. ceilings caved in, walls caved in. she huddled
under a mattress in the hall. she thought she would
die from either the storm or a heart attack. after the
storm passed, she went back to Baptist to seek shelter
(this was Monday). it was also scary at Baptist; the electricity was
out, they were running on generators, there was no air conditioning.
Tuesday the levees broke, and water began rising. they moved patients
upstairs, saw boats pass by on what used to be streets. they were told
that they would be evacuated, that buses were coming. then they were
told they would have to walk to the nearest intersection, Napoleon and
S. Claiborne, to await the buses. they waded out in hip-deep water, only
to stand at the intersection, on the neutral ground (what y'all call the
median) for 3 1/2 hours. the buses came and took them to the Ernest
Morial Convention Center. (yes, the convention center you've all seen on
TV.)
Denise said she thought she was in hell. they were
there for 2 days, with no water, no food. no shelter.
Denise, her mother (63 years old), her niece (21 years
old), and 2-year-old grandniece. when they arrived,
there were already thousands of people there. they
were told that buses were coming. police drove by,
windows rolled up, thumbs up signs. national guard
trucks rolled by, completely empty, soldiers with guns
cocked and aimed at them. nobody stopped to drop off
water. a helicopter dropped a load of water, but all
the bottles exploded on impact due to the height of
the helicopter.
the first day (Wednesday) 4 people died next to her.
the second day (Thursday) 6 people died next to her.
Denise told me the people around her all thought they
had been sent there to die. again, nobody stopped. the
only buses that came were full; they dropped off more
and more people, but nobody was being picked up and
taken away. they found out that those being dropped
off had been rescued from rooftops and attics; they
got off the buses delirious from lack of water and
food. completely dehydrated. the crowd tried to keep
them all in one area; Denise said the new arrivals had
mostly lost their minds. they had gone crazy.
inside the convention center, the place was one huge
bathroom. in order to shit, you had to stand in other
people's shit. the floors were black and slick with
shit. most people stayed outside because the smell was
so bad. but outside wasn't much better: between the
heat, the humidity, the lack of water, the old and
very young dying from dehydration... and there was no
place to lay down, not even room on the sidewalk. they
slept outside Wednesday night, under an overpass.
Denise said yes, there were young men with guns there.
but they organized the crowd. they went to Canal
Street and "looted," and brought back food and water
for the old people and the babies, because nobody had
eaten in days. when the police rolled down windows and
yelled out "the buses are coming," the young men with
guns organized the crowd in order: old people in
front, women and children next, men in the back. just
so that when the buses came, there would be priorities
of who got out first.
Denise said the fights she saw between the young men
with guns were fist fights. she saw them put their
guns down and fight rather than shoot up the crowd.
but she said that there were a handful of people shot
in the convention center; their bodies were left
inside, along with other dead babies and old people.
Denise said the people thought there were being sent
there to die. lots of people being dropped off, nobody
being picked up. cops passing by, speeding off.
national guard rolling by with guns aimed at them. and
yes, a few men shot at the police, because at a
certain point all the people thought the cops were
coming to hurt them, to kill them all. she saw a young
man who had stolen a car speed past, cops in pursuit;
he crashed the car, got out and ran, and the cops shot
him in the back. in front of the whole crowd. she saw
many groups of people decide that they were going to
walk across the bridge to the west bank, and those
same groups would return, saying that they were met at
the top of the bridge by armed police ordering them to
turn around, that they weren't allowed to leave.
so they all believed they were sent there to die.
Denise's niece found a pay phone, and kept trying to
call her mother's boyfriend in Baton Rouge, and
finally got through and told him where they were. the boyfriend, and
Denise's brother, drove down from Baton Rouge and came and got them.
they had to bribe a few cops, and talk a few into letting them into the
city ("come on, man, my 2-year-old niece is at the Convention Center!"),
then they took back roads to get to them.
after arriving at my other cousin's apartment in Baton
Rouge, they saw the images on TV, and couldn't believe
how the media was portraying the people of New
Orleans. she kept repeating to me on the phone last
night: make sure you tell everybody that they left us
there to die. nobody came. those young men with guns
were protecting us. if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't
have had the little water and food they had found.
that's Denise Moore's story.
Lisa C. Moore

[Rudey]

Yeah, I suppose some think they shot at the rescuers because they thought they were coming to hurt them.

And some think that they stole and looted non-survival items like televisions because they wanted to trade those items for food on the booming underground electronics market in New Orleans.

-Rudey

Originally posted by The Truth
Subject: a survivor's story: Katrina in New Orleans
i heard from my aunt last night that my cousin Denise
made it out of New Orleans; she's at her brother's in
Baton Rouge. from what she told me:
her mother, a licensed practical nurse, was called in
to work on Sunday night at Memorial Hospital
(historically known as Baptist Hospital to those of us
from N.O.). Denise decided to stay with her mother,
her niece and grandniece (who is 2 years old); she
figured they'd be safe at the hospital. they went to
Baptist, and had to wait hours to be assigned a room
to sleep in; after they were finally assigned a room,
two white nurses suddenly arrived after the cut-off
time (time to be assigned a room), and Denise and her
family were booted out; their room was given up to the
new nurses. Denise was furious, and rather than stay
at Baptist, decided to walk home (several blocks away)
to ride out the storm at her mother's apartment. her
mother stayed at the hospital.
she described it as the scariest time in her life. 3
of the rooms in the apartment (there are only 4) caved
in. ceilings caved in, walls caved in. she huddled
under a mattress in the hall. she thought she would
die from either the storm or a heart attack. after the
storm passed, she went back to Baptist to seek shelter
(this was Monday). it was also scary at Baptist; the electricity was
out, they were running on generators, there was no air conditioning.
Tuesday the levees broke, and water began rising. they moved patients
upstairs, saw boats pass by on what used to be streets. they were told
that they would be evacuated, that buses were coming. then they were
told they would have to walk to the nearest intersection, Napoleon and
S. Claiborne, to await the buses. they waded out in hip-deep water, only
to stand at the intersection, on the neutral ground (what y'all call the
median) for 3 1/2 hours. the buses came and took them to the Ernest
Morial Convention Center. (yes, the convention center you've all seen on
TV.)
Denise said she thought she was in hell. they were
there for 2 days, with no water, no food. no shelter.
Denise, her mother (63 years old), her niece (21 years
old), and 2-year-old grandniece. when they arrived,
there were already thousands of people there. they
were told that buses were coming. police drove by,
windows rolled up, thumbs up signs. national guard
trucks rolled by, completely empty, soldiers with guns
cocked and aimed at them. nobody stopped to drop off
water. a helicopter dropped a load of water, but all
the bottles exploded on impact due to the height of
the helicopter.
the first day (Wednesday) 4 people died next to her.
the second day (Thursday) 6 people died next to her.
Denise told me the people around her all thought they
had been sent there to die. again, nobody stopped. the
only buses that came were full; they dropped off more
and more people, but nobody was being picked up and
taken away. they found out that those being dropped
off had been rescued from rooftops and attics; they
got off the buses delirious from lack of water and
food. completely dehydrated. the crowd tried to keep
them all in one area; Denise said the new arrivals had
mostly lost their minds. they had gone crazy.
inside the convention center, the place was one huge
bathroom. in order to shit, you had to stand in other
people's shit. the floors were black and slick with
shit. most people stayed outside because the smell was
so bad. but outside wasn't much better: between the
heat, the humidity, the lack of water, the old and
very young dying from dehydration... and there was no
place to lay down, not even room on the sidewalk. they
slept outside Wednesday night, under an overpass.
Denise said yes, there were young men with guns there.
but they organized the crowd. they went to Canal
Street and "looted," and brought back food and water
for the old people and the babies, because nobody had
eaten in days. when the police rolled down windows and
yelled out "the buses are coming," the young men with
guns organized the crowd in order: old people in
front, women and children next, men in the back. just
so that when the buses came, there would be priorities
of who got out first.
Denise said the fights she saw between the young men
with guns were fist fights. she saw them put their
guns down and fight rather than shoot up the crowd.
but she said that there were a handful of people shot
in the convention center; their bodies were left
inside, along with other dead babies and old people.
Denise said the people thought there were being sent
there to die. lots of people being dropped off, nobody
being picked up. cops passing by, speeding off.
national guard rolling by with guns aimed at them. and
yes, a few men shot at the police, because at a
certain point all the people thought the cops were
coming to hurt them, to kill them all. she saw a young
man who had stolen a car speed past, cops in pursuit;
he crashed the car, got out and ran, and the cops shot
him in the back. in front of the whole crowd. she saw
many groups of people decide that they were going to
walk across the bridge to the west bank, and those
same groups would return, saying that they were met at
the top of the bridge by armed police ordering them to
turn around, that they weren't allowed to leave.
so they all believed they were sent there to die.
Denise's niece found a pay phone, and kept trying to
call her mother's boyfriend in Baton Rouge, and
finally got through and told him where they were. the boyfriend, and
Denise's brother, drove down from Baton Rouge and came and got them.
they had to bribe a few cops, and talk a few into letting them into the
city ("come on, man, my 2-year-old niece is at the Convention Center!"),
then they took back roads to get to them.
after arriving at my other cousin's apartment in Baton
Rouge, they saw the images on TV, and couldn't believe
how the media was portraying the people of New
Orleans. she kept repeating to me on the phone last
night: make sure you tell everybody that they left us
there to die. nobody came. those young men with guns
were protecting us. if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't
have had the little water and food they had found.
that's Denise Moore's story.
Lisa C. Moore

[Marie]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Nowhere did I say that these people don't deserve better treatment. I think it's disgusting to, as someone said in another thread, "bite the hand that feeds you". WHY should the people in these Texas towns, such as what Kevlar described, have to live in fear now because of the hoodlums that came over with the well-deserving people? It's not fair to them. It's not fair that they could possibly paint a negative reputation for all of the "refugees" that want the help and are not acting like animals.

I just feel compelled to disagree 110% with you. You speak about fairness as if anything that has happened in the last week is fair. It isn't 'fair' that people have lost their homes and everything that they've worked for. It isn't 'fair' that expecting moms have waited for nine months to see their children only to have them die b/c they were born into deplorable conditions. It isn't fair that families have been ripped apart and devastated. However, this is the situation that we are ALL faced with, and we just have to deal. Unfortunately that includes the residents of all the cities that these victims have to evacuate to.

I understand that in these conditions people can start to go "crazy" like Dee described, but those who are caught doing these things should be held and taken back to the Superdome. Let them form their own little colony of felons. I don't think the intaking cities should have to suffer their liberty and freedom after offering a great situation of help.

I don't even know if you're serious here or just frustrated. There are people who have legitimate mental issues who have been w/o medicines for several days. Now I have seen people who are generally very calm and loveable transform into entirely different persons when w/o their medicines. Are you suggesting that we should throw away these people's lives by leaving them in the city/Superdome (amongst lawlessness, disease, and starvation) to die b/c this disaster has rendered them incapable of maintaining their normal stable mental state? There are people who have looted for survival. Now the president said that there should be zero tolerance, so should we follow your contingency plan and leave those people too? There are drug addicts who have been w/o a fix in weeks and are beginning to flip out. Now it may seem easy for you to toss away the crack addict 'Tyronne Bigums' character, but do you feel the same way about the suburban housewife who has been struggling with a crystal meth addiciton and has begun to resort to crimes to get her fix? Should we toss her in the Superdome to fend for herself too? Now I know that you might say, well these aren't the people that I'm talking about. I mean the regular theives and murders who do this type of thing for fun and are just taking advantage of the situation. Honestly, I don't doubt that these people are out there, but how are you supposed to separate the 2. We don't have time/manpower to review each situation on a case by case basis. Furthermore we certainly don't have the police power to cart all of these criminals back to the Superdome even if we were going to go with this 'let them kill themselves' plan of attack. If they had that much police power, then the situation wouldn't have gotten out of control in the 1st place. Lastly, how are we supposed to take back the Superdome when this is all over? Do you think that they will all just kill themselves off, or are we just going to come in and shoot everybody, cart the bodies away, and call it a sunny day in the city? Again, I can't tell if you're just frustrated, or if you just really care so little for SOME human lives.

Yes I said animals. And it has nothing to do with race.

OK last point. I just found this statement really interesting b/c I think that your post is an exaggeration of the attitude that existis in the country on a larger scale. This whole, segregate them from the remainder of 'good society' and let them kill themselves off mentality #1 sadly only increases the divide btwn economic classes in the country (and ultimately btwn races), #2 only amplifies disasters like this one where you have large communities of people too poor to help themselves and are stuck relying on assistance, and #3 doesn't do anything to actually reduce the actual problems. Why do we have such large ghettos of poor people in this country and others around the world? It seems a little too easy to just move away, and wipe your hands of the 'less desirable' elements. It is too easy for us to say, "oh they should have helped themselves." This whole throw away attitude is why you have portions of the city that get lesss city services, less aide and attention, and are allowed to spiral so that the poor of society are victims to the criminal element. I can't help but to think that what happens everyday in every major city paralells what happened this past week in NO. I really appreciate how the nation has banded together this week to provide assistance to those who are in need. It has truly been a beautiful site. However, I hope that some of the people will make helping these same people escape poverty permanently a part of their everyday agenda even after this crisis has passed.

[PM_Mama00]

Ok woah you read WAY too far into my post. Yes I said a few things out of frustration and anger.

The animals I spoke of are the people who were looting in the beginning, the ANIMALS who were raping and attacking people. THOSE are the people who I wouldn't mind if they started killing themselves off.

I would NEVER EVER EVER say anything liek that about people with mental disabilities because I have a few good friends and family members dealing with those disease. I am really offended that you would assume that, especially since my original post said NOTHING even close to that.

And actually you're NOT 110% disagreeing with me because I never said that it was fair that the victims have to unfortunately go through all the hardships coming ahead. So thank you for assuming once again. I just don't think it's fair that these cities have to deal with the extra crime. And notice that I used the words hoodlum and well-deserving. Now which people do you think I care more about?

And just an FYI.... I have no sympathy for drug addicts. They know what they are getting their selves into when they start and unfortunately some of these people are uneducated and don't know the dangers of drugs. But I really have no sympathy for those who make drug use an everyday part of their life. 3 of my exes were coke users, and I had absolutely no sympathy for the BS they had to go through while getting high.

[starang21]

people on gc are some backpeddling mofos.

[Rudey]

I heard there was a man who raped a 13 year old in the super dome and that he was beaten to death there after.

-Rudey

[Marie]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Ok woah you read WAY too far into my post. Yes I said a few things out of frustration and anger.

The animals I spoke of are the people who were looting in the beginning, the ANIMALS who were raping and attacking people. THOSE are the people who I wouldn't mind if they started killing themselves off.

I would NEVER EVER EVER say anything liek that about people with mental disabilities because I have a few good friends and family members dealing with those disease. I am really offended that you would assume that, especially since my original post said NOTHING even close to that.

And actually you're NOT 110% disagreeing with me because I never said that it was fair that the victims have to unfortunately go through all the hardships coming ahead. So thank you for assuming once again. I just don't think it's fair that these cities have to deal with the extra crime. And notice that I used the words hoodlum and well-deserving. Now which people do you think I care more about?

And just an FYI.... I have no sympathy for drug addicts. They know what they are getting their selves into when they start and unfortunately some of these people are uneducated and don't know the dangers of drugs. But I really have no sympathy for those who make drug use an everyday part of their life. 3 of my exes were coke users, and I had absolutely no sympathy for the BS they had to go through while getting high.

This isn't a matter of assumptions; this is a matter of common sense. My point was that there is no way or time to sort through and distinguish the 'hoodlums' from those who are acting like hoodlums for one reason or another. The examples that I listed above are of people who w/o knowing their back-story may appear to be common criminals. If we followed the thinking from your earlier post, then we would be sacrificing the safety, health, and lives of all of those people too b/c it is simply impossible to review everyone's crime on a case by case basis. Certainly you might be able to pin point a rapist, but can you distinguish btwn a paranoid schizophrenic who flips out and strangles a crying baby from a completely sane man who murders a baby to get back at its father/mother? On the surface, these might look nearly the same though I doubt that the same punishment would be applicable. That is the issue that I took w/your solution.

Additionally, I made no assumptions about you thinking that the situation that the victims are in is fair. I responded to your comment that it isn't fair for the people in the Texas towns to have to suffer due to the inflow of criminal victims as well. My point is, no it isn't fair to them, but so what? None of this week has been fair, but we all have to adjust and do the best we can to improve the situation. As I stated, it is nearly impossible to weed each criminal out, so each city that is offering support will have to find ways to cope and maintain order whether it is fair or not.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Marie
This isn't a matter of assumptions; this is a matter of common sense. My point was that there is no way or time to sort through and distinguish the 'hoodlums' from those who are acting like hoodlums for one reason or another. The examples that I listed above are of people who w/o knowing their back-story may appear to be common criminals. If we followed the thinking from your earlier post, then we would be sacrificing the safety, health, and lives of all of those people too b/c it is simply impossible to review everyone's crime on a case by case basis. Certainly you might be able to pin point a rapist, but can you distinguish btwn a paranoid schizophrenic who flips out and strangles a crying baby from a completely sane man who murders a baby to get back at its father/mother? On the surface, these might look nearly the same though I doubt that the same punishment would be applicable. That is the issue that I took w/your solution.

Additionally, I made no assumptions about you thinking that the situation that the victims are in is fair. I responded to your comment that it isn't fair for the people in the Texas towns to have to suffer due to the inflow of criminal victims as well. My point is, no it isn't fair to them, but so what? None of this week has been fair, but we all have to adjust and do the best we can to improve the situation. As I stated, it is nearly impossible to weed each criminal out, so each city that is offering support will have to find ways to cope and maintain order whether it is fair or not.

So you're saying let the schizophrenic strangle the baby and don't shoot him?

-Rudey

[Marie]

Originally posted by Rudey
So you're saying let the schizophrenic strangle the baby and don't shoot him?

-Rudey

No, I'm saying that they need to be evacuated as well and given medical aide to stabalize their mental state rather than being left to die w/the rest of the hoodlums as per PM_Mama00's solution.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Marie
No, I'm saying that they need to be evacuated as well and given medical aide to stabalize their mental state rather than being left to die w/the rest of the hoodlums as per PM_Mama00's solution.

Well if someone is choking my baby, I'll shoot him.

If someone is choking your baby, you can wait and see if someone provides them with medical aide so they stop.

Whether or not they are nut jobs or criminals, they are choking a baby.

Whether or not they are nut jobs or criminals, shooting them will take care of it.

-Rudey

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Marie
No, I'm saying that they need to be evacuated as well and given medical aide to stabalize their mental state rather than being left to die w/the rest of the hoodlums as per PM_Mama00's solution.


Give me an honest estimate, in your mind, of how many people trapped in New Orleans circa 3 days post-hurricane were mentally unstable due to lack of medication, versus those who were looting non-essential items.

My first guess puts the number in the former category firmly in the range of "tiny amount compared to the whole", while the latter sits firmly in the "fewer than we saw, but substantially more than any other group save those looting for survival," which has significant impact on the points you're trying to make, it would seem.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
And just an FYI.... I have no sympathy for drug addicts. They know what they are getting their selves into when they start and unfortunately some of these people are uneducated and don't know the dangers of drugs. But I really have no sympathy for those who make drug use an everyday part of their life. 3 of my exes were coke users, and I had absolutely no sympathy for the BS they had to go through while getting high.

But you want us to feel sorry for fat people, right, or those with FUPA?

[Marie]

Originally posted by Rudey
Well if someone is choking my baby, I'll shoot him.

If someone is choking your baby, you can wait and see if someone provides them with medical aide so they stop.

Whether or not they are nut jobs or criminals, they are choking a baby.

Whether or not they are nut jobs or criminals, shooting them will take care of it.

-Rudey

You've lost me. We weren't discussing defending one's self or others. We were talking about evacuation plans, and whether or not some people should have been left behind.

[Marie]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Give me an honest estimate, in your mind, of how many people trapped in New Orleans circa 3 days post-hurricane were mentally unstable due to lack of medication, versus those who were looting non-essential items.

My first guess puts the number in the former category firmly in the range of "tiny amount compared to the whole", while the latter sits firmly in the "fewer than we saw, but substantially more than any other group save those looting for survival," which has significant impact on the points you're trying to make, it would seem.

KSig, I feel your point, and I don't at all doubt that there are many people who are just taking advantage of the situation. My point is just that there are some who are not, and they don't deserve to just be tossed away. Everyone on here admits that there are people who are doing what they have to do to survive (stealing food & supplies), however, the president has said that there should be zero tolerance making them criminals as well. According to PM_Mama00's plan they along w/the 3 mentally ill people should just be abandoned to the Superdome. Of course I do not believe that this is actually what she wants done, but I do think that this hasty 'lets just lock up or segregate the bad people' attitude reflects some larger issues in our society, which disgusts me.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by Marie
KSig, I feel your point, and I don't at all doubt that there are many people who are just taking advantage of the situation. My point is just that there are some who are not, and they don't deserve to just be tossed away. Everyone on here admits that there are people who are doing what they have to do to survive (stealing food & supplies), however, the president has said that there should be zero tolerance making them criminals as well. According to PM_Mama00's plan they along w/the 3 mentally ill people should just be abandoned to the Superdome. Of course I do not believe that this is actually what she wants done, but I do think that this hasty 'lets just lock up or segregate the bad people' attitude reflects some larger issues in our society, which disgusts me.

Holy effin shit batman when did I say that the mentally ill should be left there too? STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH or keyboard or whatever the hell you wana call it. Did you read my whole post? And btw I was gona tell you that I didn't think of it that way but since you're gona keep ASSUMING things then what's the point?

And valkyrie, I never told people to feel sorry. There's one thing to not feel sympathetic towards people, it's another thing to make fun of them. And overweight people trying to do something about it are ALOT different than drug addicts who do nothing but hurt society. When was the last time you heard of an overweight person mugging someone to get money to feed their addiction?

[Marie]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Holy effin shit batman when did I say that the mentally ill should be left there too? STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH or keyboard or whatever the hell you wana call it. Did you read my whole post? And btw I was gona tell you that I didn't think of it that way but since you're gona keep ASSUMING things then what's the point?

And valkyrie, I never told people to feel sorry. There's one thing to not feel sympathetic towards people, it's another thing to make fun of them. And overweight people trying to do something about it are ALOT different than drug addicts who do nothing but hurt society. When was the last time you heard of an overweight person mugging someone to get money to feed their addiction?

Girl, I know you can't be this dense. You said that you'd rather that the hoodlums be left at the Superdome to form their own little felon society and essentially kill themselves off. I have pointed out (fairly clearly, I think) that not everyone who may appear to be a hoodlum necessarily is. Since we don't have time or manpower to sort out the true hoodlums from the rest and then restrain the 'bad' ones in the Superdome, then your plan is a little weak. Now I granted that you might have been frustrated and over generalized, but come on. Please don't try to act like your original argument was sound.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
And valkyrie, I never told people to feel sorry. There's one thing to not feel sympathetic towards people, it's another thing to make fun of them. And overweight people trying to do something about it are ALOT different than drug addicts who do nothing but hurt society. When was the last time you heard of an overweight person mugging someone to get money to feed their addiction?

I can't tell you about the last time I heard about a drug addict mugging someone to get money to feed his or her addiction.

Why is it okay for you to generalize and lump all drug addicts together? You can complain about how they do nothing but hurt society -- but do you really understand drug addiction and how it happens? Wouldn't it annoy you if I posted about how fat people hurt society? I mean, look at how our insurance premiums go up because all these fat people are having heart attacks!

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Wouldn't it annoy you if I posted about how fat people hurt society? I mean, look at how our insurance premiums go up because all these fat people are having heart attacks!

What about those who have GENETIC REASONS for being morbidly obese?

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by Marie
Girl, I know you can't be this dense. You said that you'd rather that the hoodlums be left at the Superdome to form their own little felon society and essentially kill themselves off. I have pointed out (fairly clearly, I think) that not everyone who may appear to be a hoodlum necessarily is. Since we don't have time or manpower to sort out the true hoodlums from the rest and then restrain the 'bad' ones in the Superdome, then your plan is a little weak. Now I granted that you might have been frustrated and over generalized, but come on. Please don't try to act like your original argument was sound.

I know you know how to type but do you know how to read? I wasn't thinking "hoodlums" the same as "people with mental disabilities acting out because they don't have their medicine".

And btw I was gona tell you that I didn't think of it that way but since you're gona keep ASSUMING things then what's the point?

That's my quote. That I was going to tell you that I didn't think of it in terms of weeding out those who need the medicine and those who are using this tragedy to create more crime. But since you keep assuming things that I'm thinking what's the point? I'm sure you'll turn this post into something else.

Valkyrie--- yes I do know about drug addictions, how they start, different reasons why they start, the physical and psychological and sociological side effects, and what the addict has to go through to end the problem. I took Drugs, Alcohol and Society with an awesome teacher who taught us all these things. Of course I've never seen a person go through withdrawal (or it could have been him lying and saying he had the "flu") but I've seen people on coke, acid, heroin and it's a horrible thing to see so I cut myself off from that.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Valkyrie--- yes I do know about drug addictions, how they start, different reasons why they start, the physical and psychological and sociological side effects, and what the addict has to go through to end the problem. I took Drugs, Alcohol and Society with an awesome teacher who taught us all these things. Of course I've never seen a person go through withdrawal (or it could have been him lying and saying he had the "flu") but I've seen people on coke, acid, heroin and it's a horrible thing to see so I cut myself off from that.

So with your vast awareness of the struggles faced by individuals addicted to various substances, I would just think that you'd be a little more sympathetic to the plight of people in NO who have had to deal with such a dilemma. That's all I'm sayin'.

[PM_Mama00]

I totally understand what you're saying. I don't know much about NO so I admit that's where I'm wrong. I guess I should change my comment to

"I have no sympathy for addicts who are participating in crime that just makes this whole tragedy even more tragic".

I hope that came out right. I can't think straight today and can't really get out exactly how I'm feeling.

[starang21]

lol, people on this site are funny....if you think something, stick to your guns, damn.

[Marie]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
I know you know how to type but do you know how to read? I wasn't thinking "hoodlums" the same as "people with mental disabilities acting out because they don't have their medicine".



That's my quote. That I was going to tell you that I didn't think of it in terms of weeding out those who need the medicine and those who are using this tragedy to create more crime. But since you keep assuming things that I'm thinking what's the point? I'm sure you'll turn this post into something else.

Ok, we are bringing this to a close. Final point: I already conceded that you probably did not mean for mentally disabled and other such hard luck cases to be included in your 'leave them to die' plan. However, since your plan includes no way to distinguish the two, then that is in fact what you would be doing. I am sure that you didn't THINK "of it in terms of weeding out those who need the medicine and those who are using this tragedy to create more crime". However, these are the issues that you have to take into account when you are dealing w/people's lives. There is no way for you to magically identify and zap all of the true criminals back to the Superdome and restrain them there. You will have to find someway to sort through the masses, and even then you have to find the police power to put your plan into effect. Now I don't know why you want to argue as if your original plan was responsible or doable, but from here on out, you are arguing w/yourself.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by starang21
lol, people on this site are funny....if you think something, stick to your guns, damn.

Actually it's called forming an opinion, listening to all sides, and coming to a conclusion.

[starang21]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Actually it's called forming an opinion, listening to all sides, and coming to a conclusion.

i think the mantra of the site is more coming to an ignorant opinion or making a foolish comment, get blasted for it, then proceeding to make excuses and backpedal.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by starang21
i think the mantra of the site is more coming to an ignorant opinion or making a foolish comment, get blasted for it, then proceeding to make excuses and backpedal.
Really?

Who decides which opinion is "ignorant?"

I ask simply because I hate the use of that specific word.

I would rather argue that an opinion is unfounded -- even wrong.

But that's just my opinion.

[starang21]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Really?

Who decides which opinion is "ignorant?"

I ask simply because I hate the use of that specific word.

I would rather argue that an opinion is unfounded -- even wrong.

But that's just my opinion.

the definition of ignorant is not knowing, or uninformed.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by starang21
the definition of ignorant is not knowing, or uninformed.

And see I always thought the word ignorant, according to you, meant racist.

People are allowed to change their opinions when they receive more information. Kinda like first I thought you were an ass. But then after reading even more of your posts, I thought that you were even MORE of an ass. See, it's possible.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by starang21
i think the mantra of the site is more coming to an ignorant opinion or making a foolish comment, get blasted for it, then proceeding to make excuses and backpedal.

You seem to prefer the "take a hardheaded stand, reject all views that even tangentially disagree, then revert to ad hominem attacks on intelligence when assailed" method - but hey, to each his own.

-RC
--"hardheaded" is related to "stubborn" is related to "stupid" is nicer than "ignorant" . . . and doesn't carry the undertones, either!

[starang21]

Originally posted by KSig RC
You seem to prefer the "take a hardheaded stand, reject all views that even tangentially disagree, then revert to ad hominem attacks on intelligence when assailed" method - but hey, to each his own.

-RC
--"hardheaded" is related to "stubborn" is related to "stupid" is nicer than "ignorant" . . . and doesn't carry the undertones, either!

not quite. it's not my fault that when i choose to take a stand..people can't seem to undermine the logic within. i usually think things out and then argue vs. shooting from the hip. and even when i do that, they still can't diffuse the simple logic. but hey..that's how i discuss.

you're right, i do like to clown. but i do that because i feel like it...and have gotten tired at attempting intelligent discourse, because said subject is ridiculously illogical.

[starang21]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
And see I always thought the word ignorant, according to you, meant racist.

People are allowed to change their opinions when they receive more information. Kinda like first I thought you were an ass. But then after reading even more of your posts, I thought that you were even MORE of an ass. See, it's possible.

LOL, hey...people have formulated opinions of random screen names. you think i'm an ass....that's not my problem. dont' know you, nor do i care. either way, i do think you are quite dense and live in a bubble.

but that's not the point of this thread, nor would i demean the intentions of this thread by calling you names.