What is Kappa Kappa Psi? [Archive] - GreekChat.com Forums

BLUTANG

06-27-2002, 12:44 PM

Hi, i am in Tau Beta Sigma, the sister organization to Kappa Kappa Psi. I would allow a Brother to post the distinction between the two orgs, but it seems that none of them frequent GC.

Kappa Kappa Psi is a National Honorary Band Fraternity. Being an organization which serves the band, university department of music, and the community of music at large. the webpage for our national headquarters is http://www.kkytbs.org

Someone asked about the org being coed. Since the nature of membership is honorary we are obligated under Title IX to extend membership to qualified persons regardless of gender. So you may see a man in Tau Beta Sigma or a woman in Kappa Kappa Psi. please don't confuse my statement about extending membership - this doesn't mean that everyone who wants in gets in, but we are not social orgs that can limit membership to a single sex.

You also pointed out that some members have brands, step, do a call and have hand signs. It's all in brotherly (and sisterly) love. Some chapters have a rich tradition of stepping, others don't...

And being an honorary fraternity allows members of Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma to pursue membership in NPC/NPHC orgs as well. You may have a person in Kappa Kappa Psi and Kappa Alpha Psi (or any other org, you get the picture). it happens.

And as far as it being a "marching band" frat - that is not the case. Some universities do not have marching band but they still have Kappa Kappa Psi and/or Tau Beta Sigma. we are of service to the Director of Music at the university.

Hope this info helps.

bro_strawter

06-27-2002, 04:52 PM

Thanks for clearing that up for me. My fraternity, Alpha Phi Omega is very similar to Kappa Kappa Psi except we are a National Service Fraternity. We have all male chapters and co-ed chapters. We step, have calls and handsigns as well.

I have lots of friends whom are members of TBS and KKPsi. I think both are wonderful organizations.

In Greekdom

NiaX

11-13-2002, 12:24 PM

I have a question for bro_strawter: I went to look at the Tenn. State website, and I saw the ladies had one hand sign na d the males had another. Why is there two different hand signs? Is the handsign the ladies hold up the same as Gamma Sigma Sigma, and they will eventually form a GSS chapter? I am just wondering, b/c that is very interesting.

zphi06

11-30-2002, 02:23 AM

Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma are two DIFFERENT organizations working for the same cause. so, yes, we have different hand signs. I'm also a soror of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, INC. our brother organization, Phi Beta Sigma has a different sign from us as well. I personally think that the co-ed chapters confuse a lot of people because they start getting the organizations mixed up. I go to a school that is not HBCU, and we disapprove of the co-ed "stuff." I think the only times they should be co-ed is when the school does not have both organizations...only TBS or KKY.

p.s. back on the hand sign thing....KKY and Phi Beta Sigma signs are VERY similar....some people can't tell the difference!!

DramaQueenAX

12-01-2002, 05:42 AM

Just to Reply to the previous response,
I'm in the Alpha Chi Chapter of Tau Beta Sigma at Northern Arizona University. Recently our chapter of TBS has be become co-ed for the first time and it was only last year that our brother chapter put through it's first female member in KKY. I feel that know matter what your sex you can be in either organization and it not be a problem. True many chapters have never been co-ed but there is nothing wrong with a little change. It's nice having a male perspective on things and he gives us new insites that we might not have thought about before.

ITB,
DramaQueenAX
Joint Treas.
AX Sec/Treas.

bonelifer

06-13-2003, 02:36 PM

I would like put out a reminder that the handsign can vary from different regions because it isn't OFFICIAL. I know of brothers in the South(Louisiana) Area that throw up a sign that can be described as very similar to the (Folk Nation) handsign and no they aren't in that gang. That's just a little info for you noggin.

Sticky

06-14-2003, 03:50 AM

in response to co'ed chapters.

I am a female brother of KKPsi , the Iota Kappa chapter. It is true that Boise State does not have a TBS chapter, but if we did... I personally would still be a brother of KKPsi. One of few distinguishable differences between the two organizaitons is that Tau Beta Sigma "promotes women in the band" versus Kappa Kappa Psi which "promotes members of the band" this isn't any sort of crack on TBS and the written language doesn't effect their ability to serve in ANY manner. I am just a stickler for words and it is my political take to be against many things categorized as womens right's.

TBS and KKPsi are very very closely related. In fact the Alpha chapter of each are located at the same school. THere is a very interesting story behind the formation of TBS, but to sum it up, KKPsi was not opposed to being a co'ed frat at any point to my knowledge. Originally there wasn't an alternative for women.

psi_chotic02

03-10-2004, 05:39 PM

my opinion is that if the founding fathers wanted to send a clear message about women being in the frat......they would've had at least one women founder (I mean, i know there had to be at least ONE female member in the band).....THEY wouldn't call themselves fathers.........WE wouldn't be called brothers.......and THIS wouldn't be a brotherhood!!!

Now that's my 2 cents.....

Stephen I.
Kappa Kappa Psi/Epsilon Theta
Fall 2K2 #1
"Psi-chotic" Double Psi-ded

PandaOnProzac

03-10-2004, 11:31 PM

At the same time you gotta think about the change over time. Progression doesn't stop and it can only get slowed down. It was inevitable that women would be allowed into the fraternity.

Personally I've played what if games about the founding fathers. Back in the day what would have gone through their minds if they knew a non white male was in the fraternity? I often wonder beyond the Guide to Membership hand book what they really were as people in terms of equality and racism.

psi_chotic02

03-11-2004, 12:47 PM

I have no doubt that our fathers knew that other races would soon be initiated into our frat....You can tell by the oaths and charges that we take in our rituals....I mean, how can you say what an outstanding musician looks like. An outstanding musician has no face.....no matter what race or gender.......BUT TBS was created in light of KKPsi to do basically the same things under the understanding of SISTERHOOD. I know that this is the era of Title IX's and women's independence, but the Bible speaks of women as "the weaker vessel.." This doesn't mean spiritually, because your spirit has no limitations on how strong it can be. I know many women that are much closer to God than men. This text is obviously referring to the physical limitations that a woman has, in respect to that of a man. To me, women that join KKPsi instead of the ajoining TBS chapter at their school, are basically slapping Wava Banes in the face.....

bonelifer

03-15-2004, 07:21 PM

To me, women that join KKPsi instead of the ajoining TBS chapter at their school, are basically slapping Wava Banes in the face.....

What, by being strong enough of a woman to make their own choice as to what organization they were in. I doubt very seriously if Wava would give a flying-squirrels-ass as to what choice a particular person makes. In fact if Wava felt that way then she'd be slapping herself with 4ton block of shit, because TBS was started to give women the chance to make their own choices in the realm of the band, when bands where mostly men. So if a woman chooses KKPsi over TBS then she has made a choice to "THINK" for herself and not let others tell her what people she will associate with.

Delta Chi Chapter, Kappa Kappa Psi
(yeah, that's right, it's the dirty dirty
south smacking you in the face.)

psi_chotic02

03-16-2004, 12:47 AM

Actually.......Wava had a specific purpose in mind when making the our beloved sister organization......i mean, ....u have to ask yourself the question........Why is there a TBS??? I'm not saying that i wouldn't accept a female brother anyway.......but the phrase "female brother" is an oxy moron by itself......
I equally hate to see male sisters!!! I mean, what the heck is that??? A MALE sister???? It's just unbelievable what America sees as legit these days........
I'm sure that Wava would much rather see a Sorority full of girls than a sorority full of guys.....As well as the fathers a frat. full of guys than full of girls........i mean, lets be honest!

WCUgirl

03-19-2004, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
Actually.......Wava had a specific purpose in mind when making the our beloved sister organization......i mean, ....u have to ask yourself the question........Why is there a TBS??? I'm not saying that i wouldn't accept a female brother anyway.......but the phrase "female brother" is an oxy moron by itself......
I equally hate to see male sisters!!! I mean, what the heck is that??? A MALE sister???? It's just unbelievable what America sees as legit these days........
I'm sure that Wava would much rather see a Sorority full of girls than a sorority full of guys.....As well as the fathers a frat. full of guys than full of girls........i mean, lets be honest!
and

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
my opinion is that if the founding fathers wanted to send a clear message about women being in the frat......they would've had at least one women founder (I mean, i know there had to be at least ONE female member in the band).....THEY wouldn't call themselves fathers.........WE wouldn't be called brothers.......and THIS wouldn't be a brotherhood!!!
First of all, most of the guys who are members of TBS say they are brothers of TBS. I haven't met a guy yet who calls himself a sister of TBS. And even if I do, that's perfectly fine.

Second of all, what does it matter what sex you are if you are joined together with a group of people for the same purpose? What does it matter if the founders of your org. are men and it is now full of women? Or vice versa? One of Chi Omega's founders was a man but you won't hear one of them complain about it! We learned that women were admitted into KKPsi during WWII when the men were all shipped off to war...they were initated to keep the fraternity from dyeing off due to low numbers. Kinda' like in the movie "A League of Their Own" when women start playing baseball.

You should already know the purposes, but here they are again:

"Be it known that Kappa Kappa Psi, National Honorary Fraternity for College Bandmembers, is an organization operating exclusively in the field of the college and university bands, and for the following several purposes:

(1) To promote the existence and welfare of the college and university bands and to cultivate at large a wholesome respect for their activities and achievements.

(2) To honor outstanding bandmembers through privilege of membership extended as a reward for technical achievement and appreciation for the best in music.

(3) To stimulate campus leadership and promulgate an uncompromising respect through the medium of the college band for gracious conduct, good taste and unswerving loyalty.

(4) To foster a close relationship between college bands and promote a high average of attainment by the performance of good music and selection of worthwhile projects.

(5) To provide a pleasant and helpful social experience for all engaged in college band work and to cooperate with other musical organizations in any manner consistent with the purposes of the institution at which chapters are located."

Nowhere does it say "brother" or "men" or "boys" or "brotherhood." So really, by calling ourselves "brothers," it's not really something that is official. There is currently a thread on this board somewhere and I'm sure there are several more where the different sororities discuss whether they were founded as a "sorority" or a "fraternity." My sorority is known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. That does not in any way make us "brothers" of our fraternity. Fraternity is just a word, and defined by the dictionary as "a body of people associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild." Where does that mention that it is chiefly male or that the members are known as "brothers" or "sisters?"

If you have such a problem with this, why did you join KKPsi to begin with?

PandaOnProzac

03-20-2004, 04:19 AM

We all have our opinions but keep in mind we're all brothers that experienced the same ritual and principles. I personally accept anyone as a brother in the bond of music and service.

I don't want to stir up trouble but if you have a problem with KKPsi being coed then there are things you can do to deal with it. Personally I wanted the all male fraternity experience and that's why I pledged Phi Delta Theta. As a dual greek I can see it from both perspectives. If you want the all male experience then there are plenty of other greek organizations out there. Some people have given me crap for being in both. Some feel I may have left the brotherhood of KKPsi but the truth is I love both equally. But anywho yeah if you want there are other opportunities out there.

Attractive#7

04-27-2004, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
I'm not saying that i wouldn't accept a female brother anyway.......but the phrase "female brother" is an oxy moron by itself......

Is it really??? The word brother is not always used to describe gender.

Brother
1. A male person who has the same father and mother with another person, or who has one of them only. In the latter case he is more definitely called a half brother, or brother of the half blood.
2. One related or closely united to another by some common tie or interest, as of rank, profession, membership in a society, toil, suffering, etc.;
3. One who, or that which, resembles another in distinctive qualities or traits of character.

I could go on with the defintions of the word brother that have nothing to do with your gender, but you get the point...I hope
:confused:

Measi

04-28-2004, 12:49 PM

The co-ed chapters in KKY and TBS can (and are) a problem in many schools, yet others seem to handle it just fine.

My class was the last year that both the KKY and TBS chapters at my school were single-sex. The next year, KKY went co-ed. TBS did not. Three years later, TBS was gone. The chapter has been reborn, and is now co-ed, although is by far still majority female. I would prefer single-sex chapters, but at the same time... our chapters of KKY and TBS have such different personalities and different goals-- the co-ed chapters work well to offer different possibilities for each incoming band member.

The most important thing, I think, is that each member who joins the organization does so because they want to, not because it's the only choice available to them.

~ Mel.

Measi

04-28-2004, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by AXiD670
Nowhere does it say "brother" or "men" or "boys" or "brotherhood." So really, by calling ourselves "brothers," it's not really something that is official. There is currently a thread on this board somewhere and I'm sure there are several more where the different sororities discuss whether they were founded as a "sorority" or a "fraternity." My sorority is known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. That does not in any way make us "brothers" of our fraternity. Fraternity is just a word, and defined by the dictionary as "a body of people associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild." Where does that mention that it is chiefly male or that the members are known as "brothers" or "sisters?"

If you have such a problem with this, why did you join KKPsi to begin with? [/B]

For what it's worth, my Tau Beta Sigma shingle has "Tau Beta Sigma National Honorary <b>Fraternity</b>" on it. :) Both organizations are officially fraternities.

The terms sister and brother are used loosely in our chapter... the guys in TBS go with what they're comfortable with. :)

WCUgirl

04-28-2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Measi
For what it's worth, my Tau Beta Sigma shingle has "Tau Beta Sigma National Honorary <b>Fraternity</b>" on it. :) Both organizations are officially fraternities.

The terms sister and brother are used loosely in our chapter... the guys in TBS go with what they're comfortable with. :) Thanks, Measi, for bringing up this point. I do not know much about TBS other than that it is KKPsi's "sister" organization. We had a TBS chapter at my school (it was also co-ed), but they closed a little over a year after I pledged.

I don't know what happened to the original poster who got us on this tangent (psi_chotic), but I somehow doubt any of this really matters to him.

Contessima

10-13-2004, 02:24 AM

looseneck4

10-21-2004, 08:03 AM

I personly don't like the idea of women in the frat but I would never (and never will...with or without estrogen) would turn a brother away....
The only music fraternities I know of are KKPsi ,PMA, and SAI
TBS is a sorority *it states this on your constitution*...sure it may may use a unisex word like band member but you are a sorority non the less and any man that joins your ranks a sorority sister regaurdless of what u may call him ..........personly I can only aprove of men joining in certian situations...honorary and restablishment of a dead chapter....but to each his own......

But this coed thing is/does causing a problem ......."if you have one then why the need for the other".......ask a few Universities that have run into this problem with the administration if men and women can join an org that is coed and serve the same purpose then y let u have both....

might as well disolve TBS and only have PSI...and tell Wava thanks for the memories!!!!

Measi

10-21-2004, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by looseneck4
I personly don't like the idea of women in the frat but I would(and never will...with or without estrogen) turn a brother away....
The only music fraternities I know of are KKPsi ,PMA, and SAI
TBS is a sorority *it states this on your constitution*...sure it may may use a unisex word like band member but you are a sorority non the less and any man that joins your ranks a sorority sister regaurdless of what u may call him ..........personly I can only aprove of men joining in certian situations...honorary and restablishment of a dead chapter....but to each his own......

But this coed thing is/does causing a problem ......."if you have one then why the need for the other".......ask a few Universities that have run into this problem with the administration if men and women can join an org that is coed and serve the same purpose then y let u have both....

might as well disolve TBS and only have PSI...and tell Wava thanks for the memories!!!!

Of course--- dissolve TBS. Very typical of brothers who have some insecurity complex. Honestly, I don't know where KKPsi brothers have developed this b.s. I hear it all the time from brothers. I've rarely heard it from sisters-- and when I have heard it, it's been out of frustration in response to this posturing.

Do yourself a favor and get rid of the attitude-- because it HURTS your organization. BOTH organizations are equal in worth. If you think TBS should be dissolved, then KKPsi should be as well.

Do both organizations serve the same purpose? Yes. Do they go about it in the same way? Depends on your school. I can say for sure that Theta Beta (for KKPsi) and Eta Gamma (for TBS) are completely different organizations. Completely different dynamic, and they attract completely different types of people. Both chapters are co-ed. I can't speak for Theta Beta's feeling toward their female brothers, but I wouldn't trade our male sisters for anything.

Co-ed chapters CAN create problems if both organizations don't agree it's a good thing. But schools such as UConn have had both co-ed chapters for years, and it's never been a problem there.

WCUgirl

10-21-2004, 12:57 PM

looseneck4

10-22-2004, 07:58 AM

First off this is a discution board..everyone can post there views even if you don't like them ( the troll thing is a little out of place).....

Like I said before I don't care for women in the frat...I was raised different than you...my definitin of who belongs in what are based of of cultural upbringings(sp) when it comes to this issue.......(nothing sexist)

Like I said I would never disrespect or turn my back on a female member they are my fraternity brothers and will be treated as such (that is unless she just don't know anything about the org she's in and is just in it for the letters across her chest but all that can be fixed :D ).....and why would you hear a complaint from a women who has pledged Psi :confused:...now I have heard complaints from TBS members about girls who go Psi...they just dont like it (nothing on a personal level but more on the level of what fraternal organization they should have affiliated themselves with)

The women in Psi and men in TBS thing does go both ways...

As I stated before if you read the problem with the co-ed thing is largly(sp) from an administration stand point at a few places and yes within the band itself when it comes to acceptance as a REAL FRATERNITY in the world outside of the band hall.... some schools wont let you charter both orgs due to the simularities of purpose and their now co-ed status....Like it has been said before "if you have one that provides service to the band then why do you need another organization that does the same thing?"....

and yes i am Psi in good standing and life ......you dont have to like it.....just live with it :p ......I still love you, got nothing personal aginst you and all that realy matters is the work we put into the frat...

and no i am not Psi_cotic
AEA

WCUgirl

10-22-2004, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by looseneck4
First off this is a discution board..everyone can post there views even if you don't like them ( the troll thing is a little out of place).....

Like I said before I don't care for women in the frat...I was raised different than you...my definitin of who belongs in what are based of of cultural upbringings(sp) when it comes to this issue.......(nothing sexist)

Like I said I would never disrespect or turn my back on a female member they are my fraternity brothers and will be treated as such (that is unless she just don't know anything about the org she's in and is just in it for the letters across her chest but all that can be fixed :D ).....and why would you hear a complaint from a women who has pledged Psi :confused:...now I have heard complaints from TBS members about girls who go Psi...they just dont like it (nothing on a personal level but more on the level of what fraternal organization they should have affiliated themselves with)

The women in Psi and men in TBS thing does go both ways...

As I stated before if you read the problem with the co-ed thing is largly(sp) from an administration stand point at a few places and yes within the band itself when it comes to acceptance as a REAL FRATERNITY in the world outside of the band hall.... some schools wont let you charter both orgs due to the simularities of purpose and their now co-ed status....Like it has been said before "if you have one that provides service to the band then why do you need another organization that does the same thing?"....

and yes i am Psi in good standing and life ......you dont have to like it.....just live with it :p ......I still love you, got nothing personal aginst you and all that realy matters is the work we put into the frat...

and no i am not Psi_cotic
AEA Well, your motive/identity is suspect when your very first post on this board is of the nature that yours was.

Go back and re-read what Measi posted:Originally posted by Measi
Do both organizations serve the same purpose? Yes. Do they go about it in the same way? Depends on your school. I can say for sure that Theta Beta (for KKPsi) and Eta Gamma (for TBS) are completely different organizations. Completely different dynamic, and they attract completely different types of people. Both chapters are co-ed.

Although these organizations have similar purposes, they are different organizations. They are going to attract different types of people. Obviously there is a need for both groups. Guess what - it happens every day in the social greek systems. All of the social GLOs have a similar purpose, but on most campuses there is more than one social GLO. Hmmm, how could that be? Perhaps b/c each group is unique in its own way. One group will be able to offer what another group is lacking.

If your membership numbers are dwindling, don't blame it on TBS for taking your members. Blame it on yourselves for not being able to recruit well.

And by the way, by saying that you don't care for women in KKPsi, you ARE disrespecting the women in KKPsi. I wonder how would you treat a woman who was president of your chapter?

Are you basing your feelings about women being in KKPsi on the fact that KKPsi is chartered as a fraternity? Is it semantics that's causing the problem in your head? Because if so, you need to (again) go back and re-read what I said about my sorority. We are known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. But, we're women-only. But we're a fraternity. Strange. (please note the sarcasm.) I don't know what else could be indicating to you that KKPsi should be for men only.

Besides, Measi already told you: Originally posted by Measi
For what it's worth, my Tau Beta Sigma shingle has "Tau Beta Sigma National Honorary Fraternity" on it. :) Both organizations are officially fraternities.TBS is a fraternity.

Is your chapter co-ed?

blkwebman1919

10-22-2004, 10:56 AM

This is an issue on which we all will have to agree to disagree. As a founding member of an HBCU single-sex chapter on a campus with a companion single-sex chapter of TBS, I can understand where looseneck4 and psichotic are coming from. Of course, I will welcome a female member of my org the same as I would any other, and I have on many occasions when I have had the opportunity to do so.

But, there are cultural differences that come into play here. Many of us who came through "gender-specific" chapters (both men AND women) support that way of thinking and don't equate it to discrimination or restriction of any person's rights.

I can also understand the way of thinking in the co-ed chapter culture and I certainly wouldn't be the one to dump on that, especially when they are fulfilling the sacred principles of our Fraternity. That's what works for them. However, remember that "single-sex" chapters work for us.

The problem here is when some co-ed chapter members (not all, and not necessarily those posting in this thread) try to imply that those of us who support the "single-sex" chapter way of thinking are somehow discriminatory, uninformed, or "neanderthals" who need to change.

IMHO, there is room for both views in our organization. Just as co-ed chapters are here to stay, so are "gender-specific" ones. We're all here for the same purposes. That's just the way it is.

Just my $19.19.

AEA

WCUgirl

10-22-2004, 11:13 AM

blkwebman,

Out of curiosity, what would you do if a woman were to try to become a member at your single-sex chapter?

ETA: blkwebman's post is a lot more respectful and empathetic than is looseneck's. blkwebman was able to rationally state the reasons behind his logic, whereas looseneck came on here and blatantly stated that women in KKPsi is a problem and that TBS should be dissolved. That's just rude and really puts people on the defensive.

blkwebman1919

10-22-2004, 11:49 AM

AxiD670,

If a female expressed her desire to join KKPsi and not TBS, then I would never seek to prevent her from submitting herself for consideration. To be honest though, I would have to ask her "Why KKPsi and not TBS?" and her answer would probably weigh heavily on the decision to accept her for MIP. Keep in mind, that "Why KKPsi?" would also be a critical question for any male prospective. Since this has never happened before, it's kind of hard to say exactly how things would unfold if it did.

However, I do not believe that this would ever happen (it never has in my undergrad chapter) because of the cultural traditions on campuses like my alma mater (both within the band community and the student population at large). The ladies identify heavily with TBS and the guys identify with KKPsi. And in general, the Greek community generally falls along gender-specific lines.

Now, if a female member of KKPsi who was made in another chapter were to transfer to our school, then I would welcome her just as I would any other member. I know of another single-sex chapter at a nearby school who has a female member that transferred from another school.

Measi

10-24-2004, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by blkwebman1919
However, I do not believe that this would ever happen (it never has in my undergrad chapter) because of the cultural traditions on campuses like my alma mater (both within the band community and the student population at large). The ladies identify heavily with TBS and the guys identify with KKPsi. And in general, the Greek community generally falls along gender-specific lines.

Now, if a female member of KKPsi who was made in another chapter were to transfer to our school, then I would welcome her just as I would any other member. I know of another single-sex chapter at a nearby school who has a female member that transferred from another school.

When I originally joined TBS, our chapters were also heavily identified in gender roles. There had been some attempts by guys to pledge TBS (and I'm sure, but never had heard of girls attempting to go KKPsi). Honestly, I prefered it that way. The rumblings by brothers that TBS was inferior and therefore should be eliminated was already present, however.

For what it's worth, blkwebman1919--- you appear to have a very healthy (and respectful) attitude about it. It's refreshing.

~ Mel.

looseneck4

10-25-2004, 09:32 AM

To answer your last Q.. my chapter is all male...and 8 times out of 10 will stay that way... things can change(for what ever reason good or bad) and with the way the program is going it just may one day induct a female member......but only by say 1 or 2 members if it ever does ( u have to know the band)........

I mean no disrespect or ill will to any female member past, pressent, or future... its just culturaly I see things different than u and a few of other people....no realy big problem

As for my women in KKPsi being a problem statement I gave my reasons behind it..nothing personal just what is noticed from my side of the tracks.....

As for our TBS chapter it been inactive for the last 10 years due to there being almost no women in the band (all male marching unit ...which is were our KKPsi and TBS operated out of...) weve only recently aquired SAI and M Phi E was not attracting that much attention to itself.....

As for there being a fraternity for women OH WOW!!!!......tell me something i don't know...sorority is a rather a new word to the world.....

When Psi was founded it was made by bandsmen for bandsmen(male fraternity)...but since then things have changed (some from group believes others for legal reasons and then there is the just cause factor.....but changed non the less) all we can do its keep working towards our one collective goal regardless of who has on the letters.....

Infidelicious

11-05-2004, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
[B]my opinion is that if the founding fathers wanted to send a clear message about women being in the frat......they would've had at least one women founder (I mean, i know there had to be at least ONE female member in the band).....THEY wouldn't call themselves fathers.........WE wouldn't be called brothers.......and THIS wouldn't be a brotherhood!!!

I know I'm a bit late in jumping into this conversation, but being a brother of KKPsi Alpha, I seem to remember a bit about our band's history and how there were no female members of the OAMC (now OSU) bands at the time the fraternity was founded... so, there is really no way to know how they would have organized had there been women in the band.

psi_chotic02

01-14-2005, 01:17 PM

Ive seen alot of opinions......ive seen alot of ideas....
Its weird how people can accept their own opinion but wont listen to others.....Im not tryin to persuade you....im just tryin to inform you of my OPINION.......
you know, a DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.......seeing something in ANOTHER LIGHT....
I am not one to cause or fuel discord among my brethren but i do have strong emotions on the subject of my fraternity.
I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)
YES I AM A BROTHER. and i didnt have to go back to the internet or my pledge book to know my purposes OR my foundation.
I have no problem with coming together for oen central cause for the betterment of bands.......It's when I try to incorporate the other aspects of our frat. into the mix and then there's an obvious difference. SHE isnt just one of the guys......WHY?......cause she's not a guy. NOT and NEVER will be.....Im not able to look at a female and view her as one of the guys....and i know im not the only one. Frankly, that causes our bruhs to have to go out and join other orgs. to get the TRUE BROTHERHOOD. I dont care about Webster's definition. You will never look at your blood sister and call her you brother.
The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be.
PROOF:
Bohumil Makovsky was a 33rd degree Mason. Research Masonry.......
There are 2 dominant orgs. = O.E.S. & Freemasonry
O.E.S. is a Co-ed organization but Boh wasnt apart of that.....
He was in FREEMASONRY......which is a BROTHERHOOD.....and consists of only male members........
and if you think that his involvment with masonry has nothing to with it....then you dont even know why our colors are Blue and White!!!.....Blue & White are the two main Masonic colors...
Read it and weep...
I love yall ...........AEA.........

WCUgirl

01-14-2005, 03:38 PM

Hey! Look who finally decided to join us again!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 Its weird how people can accept their own opinion but wont listen to othersPot, meet kettle.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)I'd like to know who in this thread you think is a "paper" member.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 ...when I try to incorporate the other aspects of our frat. into the mix and then there's an obvious difference.To what aspects of our fraternity could you possibly be referring? I'm a female brother, and I was able to participate in everything. We obviously weren't the only chapter that is able to do so.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 SHE isnt just one of the guys......WHY?......cause she's not a guy. NOT and NEVER will be.....Im not able to look at a female and view her as one of the guys....No one said you have to.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 Frankly, that causes our bruhs to have to go out and join other orgs. to get the TRUE BROTHERHOOD.Umm, are you sure about that? How do you know they're not joining other orgs to find one that is social in nature? That's certainly what I did. Just b/c you're in KKPsi doesn't mean you can't be in other orgs as well.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be.Did you even bother reading any of the previous posts? So what you're saying is, then, that when you hear of Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity, you're going to assume it's a group for men?

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
PROOF:
Bohumil Makovsky was a 33rd degree Mason. Research Masonry.......
There are 2 dominant orgs. = O.E.S. & Freemasonry
O.E.S. is a Co-ed organization but Boh wasnt apart of that.....
He was in FREEMASONRY......which is a BROTHERHOOD.....and consists of only male members........
and if you think that his involvment with masonry has nothing to with it....then you dont even know why our colors are Blue and White!!!.....Blue & White are the two main Masonic colors...
Read it and weep...This, really, has nothing to do w/ anything. If you want a history lesson, see this wonderful post by Infidelicious (thanks to you, by the way! :D ):Originally posted by Infidelicious
I know I'm a bit late in jumping into this conversation, but being a brother of KKPsi Alpha, I seem to remember a bit about our band's history and how there were no female members of the OAMC (now OSU) bands at the time the fraternity was founded... so, there is really no way to know how they would have organized had there been women in the band.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 I love yall ...........AEA.........No, you don't, b/c it's obvious from your views that you do not welcome me as your brother.

I just don't understand why you would join a co-ed organization, knowing beforehand that it was co-ed, and then complain about it being co-ed after you've been initiated. :confused: If it's that big of an issue to you, don't just piss and moan about it - do something! Why don't you call up Nationals and tell them you don't want any more women in your organization?

bonelifer

02-27-2005, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)

Brother while I don't necessarily agree with your line of reasoning, I was with you until you said that. Seems to me someone either A. HAS A CASE OF NEOITICE or B. NEEDS TO STEP BACK. Who the hell made you the Official Pledgemaster of Kappa Kappa Psi National Honorary Band Fraternity Inc. Seriously with that line of talk, you'd better be ready and ABLE to IDENTIFY, and CONFIRM, every Brother that has crossed into this Fraternity. The ULTIMATE POINT HERE IS: You need to get the HELL off your high horse, because it's been ridden to death.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be. ... [/B]

Well hello, I wasn't aware that one of our founding father's nicknames was "PSI-CHOTIC02". First of all ASSumptions make an ass out of everyone. Second of all the National Archive Team has found letters by Brother "A." Andrew Frank Martin that without a doubt show he and many brothers at the time were open to allowing women into the Fraternity.

Empress0105

05-02-2005, 10:57 PM

i know i am extra late in this whole convo...

but alpha chapter kkpsi, i have a question:

why is there tbs in the first place then?

if the founders were all for co-ed membership to begin with, why wasn't it co-ed from the jump once it traveled to schools that DID have female memebers?

27 years is a long time to try and say no women were around at ANY school the fraternity chartered at (that reffering to 1919 to 1946)

as a soror of tau beta sigma, at an all female chapter, i do have to say that i can see both sides of the fence.

but i also have to look at the welfare of my organization. when i hear rumors that in 50 years there will be no tbs and we will have to be associate kkpsi, i have a problem. when i see kkpsi having at times 4 times the amount of colonies than my org at schools with both men and women in the band programs, i worry. there should be no reason that SEVERAL people from the 6 active districts (cause i know of no one in that international one lol) tell me that when their school chartered the petitioning members were told they only needed kkpsi because it's be easier on paperwork, i get really pissed when i hear that.

i can only think of ONE school that has tbs but no kkpsi, that isn't in that situation due to kkpsi being suspeded.

if we are to truly be brother/sister orgs (which is what i learned wava was told to form by the members of kkpsi, a sister org), then we cant sit here and pout about dumb ish...but we also can't be blind to stats when they are in our faces...

bonelifer

05-03-2005, 01:06 AM

I never said that it was widely accepted but it was on the minds of people at the time. And many prominent Brothers were for allowing women, but they wouldn't be able to do anything untill the other chapter resumed after the war. Since TBS was already created by that time, the point was moot.

As for the TBS vs KKPsi when colonizing it's really a perception on the DIRECTOR OF BANDS part. And as we all know both organizations exist by the DIRECTOR OF BANDS will and only their will. In other words it's the DIRECTOR OF BANDS choice. National Headquarters can only send paper work for both organizations and beyond that it's really down to what the DIRECTOR OF BANDS wants, PERIOD. That's not to say it's right but I'm sure many a female DIRECTOR OF BANDS has made the same decision and possibly chose Kappa Kappa Psi. Choose is the KEY WORD, it's something called freewill.

Empress0105

05-14-2005, 12:35 AM

well if the point was mute, why go co ed in the first place, and dont say title 9 because there are hundreds of orgs who stayed single sex...

and im not talking about what the director of bands says..im talking about when they are TOLD that its easier to just bring one rather than both...

bonelifer

05-14-2005, 02:36 AM

This is from my understanding but Title IX was only a single reason during the Biennium that each organization went CO-ED. Other reasons included some rogue(progressive) chapters I belive in Arizona were already initiating females/males and sending in the name as a first initial lastname. Another reason and the driving and final force behind such is that we are NON-PROFIT 103(c)(3) organizations and if we hadn't gone CO-ED when the National(United States) law changed later that year we would have lost that designation and would be considered taxable. Also, we aren't SOCIAL and therefore weren't protected by the blanket exemptions for Social Fraternities.

Now for the Director of Bands thing. NO ONE IS TELLING THEM IT'S EASIER. In fact you get a discount overall for colonizing both. Again it's a PERSONAL PERCEPTION by the DOB. AGAIN it all goes back to the FREEWILL of the DIRECTOR OF BANDS . At my school our DOB was KKPsi(Conway, AR), and our ADOB was TBSigma(Conway, AR). They choose to do both because they had prior knowledge. As for what can be done, probably little can be done to change the fact because the NHQ doesn't want to step on the toes of DOB's. It's truely hard enough trying to get a college where neither organization has existed before to colonize. Remember the Colonies you hear about on the National listserve are the one's that started the process and are either continuing or have finished and have became a Chapter. Many will inquire and receive the paperwork and not follow through or fail to finish the process. If you come in and push both organizations when they only want one or the other then you risk alienating them. As you may know DOB's work hard to get to the job they have and don't like someone coming into their program telling them how to run it.

looseneck4

05-15-2005, 09:00 PM

What happend in Arizona was not really all that progressive...it was more of a long standing battle between brothers and sisters that ended up in a recognized co-ed chapter- a precurser to the image of our fraternity that now confuses many people today...it's happend at many chapters...I even know of a few where this family quarrel has brought its Psi chapter to the verge of extinction; folks just got tired of arguing with supposed family...and Title IX and all other non social fraternal org. regulations help keep things the way they are (whether the fraternity voted to go Co-ed or not..and yes i know it did)

As for the whole its up to the director as to if he can establish both orgs or not...THAT IS NOT ENTIERLY TRUE.....he/she may want to establish both orgs but the university can tell him NO...that's a problem at a couple of universities now..they have Psi or Tbs and the university will not allow them to establish the other due the orgs being Co-ed..they see it as why have two orgs that serve the same purpose.....

The issue of freemasonry and our fraternity is actually important (some things u think are all ours aren't)....it is a shared history with just about every other fraternity in this and other countries ...from a choice of Colors, grips, and secret passwords; it does stems from that particular organization...its just that some chapters recognize this and, well -some don't ( no big loss to them)

Milkhakeax

07-23-2005, 01:25 PM

I think there's a couple problems here, this whole "who is actually better" sort of argument.

The first thing people need to remember that although our purposes are very similar and our past, present, and future is linked, it doesn't mean we need to do everything together. The last time I checked, we were incorporated in the state of Oklahoma seperately, so legally we are separate entities. Although it is important to band together and work together and cherish the bonds we have, in the end we are separate organizations and should recruit in that manner.

I don't understand this TBS mentality of "KKPsi has more colonies/chapters/members/whatever" when their success is in nowhere a sign of our independent success. I'm a Sister by the way, a male one at that. Kappa Kappa Psi's recruiting drive is a testament to it's members and leadership's drive. That's not to say TBS doesn't have the same drive, but since we are a different organization, how can we complain? Shouldn't we be deciding new techniques that will work for us?

It's not even a question of numbers really. Everytime TBS is introduced, even from Sisters, it's "the Sister chapter, Tau Beta Sigma" or something to that effect. Yes we are the Sisters, just like KKPsi is our Brothers. How many here have siblings? Do you expect your siblings to be solely introduced as "thi is my sister/brother, _____?" Even if it is someone else introducing them, not you? No, of course not! It's completely true when the Brothers introduce us as "the Sister chapter" because we are. I don't understand why Sisters willing say they are the Sister chapter with complete disregard to their own organization.

That's neither here nor there, however. To anyone who says that a man shouldn't be in Tau Beta Sigma, or a woman in Kappa Kappa Psi, that is absolutely ridiculous. I think denying anyone is ignoring what the Bonds of our organizations mean. Its that brand of ignorance that hold back both organizations from true potential, both working together and apart.

And also to anyone who says that they went through hell to get in their chapter, you're full of it. If you did, it's called hazing and should never happen, and no ritual, in any GLO is all that hard to go through. Mason ritual isn't that hard to get through, and that's what most GLO's are based off of so I know what I'm talking about.

ITB,

Milkshake

Empress0105

07-23-2005, 10:25 PM

Hey Milkshake, Im a lil confused, one minute you are saying we are seperate then the next talking about the "bond"

I have had plenty of female KKPsi members look at me like I am an idiot when i enthusiastically appraoch them and say hey I'm your sister...which technically I am

And I have no problem with men in TBS... I just personally don't see why one would want to join TBS is KKPsi was there, and vice versa...

"...provides service to collegiate bands, encourages the advancement of women in the band profession and promotes and enriches an appreciation of band music..."

not saying it should be banned and forgotten for all eternity, but I personally as myself, don't understand it...

Milkhakeax

07-23-2005, 11:02 PM

It really comes down to where a person feels most comfortable and what they want to do. To me, helping women, sometimes even specifically women in music is the best way to devote my time and energy. So yes, it is hard to convince men to join TBS, but many men feel more comfotable there. I did a small survey over the Nat'l Listserve and found dozens of men that felt the same way I do.

I talk of the bond, because we do have a bond. We do things together which is great and I think it's important. I think it is dangerous, however, when it gets to the point where TBS can't exist without KKPsi or the other way around. We should work together and be able to hang out together, but should our sole existance be dependent on the other organization? No, of course not. That's what I mean when I say we have a bond but we are seperate. We are different organizations that should and will work together when it is appropriate. Our measure of success should never be based of KKPsi, however. That's what I mean.

DGMarie

07-28-2005, 01:35 AM

I am an alumna of TBS at a school (U of S. Carolina) which has a KKPsi chapter. At the time I was active, we had female only TBS and male only KKPsi. We were a sorority and they were a fraternity and this was just peachy. While we knew that TBS had some chapters which were co ed, we did think that was odd at the time (this was 20 years ago). I do think that the practice of calling the men "sisters" is unusual and seems to stand on fomality rather that practicality.

I would think that if a stronger chapter at a school with both decided to go co ed, it could/would be detrimental to the other chapter. Especially when both groups are focused on the same activity: supporting the band. I understand that this was the case after I graduated from school to my TBS chapter, which declined dramatically from over 50 girls to less than 10.

When a group like TBS functions as purely a female organization, the bond and temperment of the group is very different than when men join it. The actvities change, the conversations change, the meetings change. Especially when the TBS chapter is also a strong social organization for women in the band.

Milkhakeax

07-28-2005, 02:01 AM

DGMarie

07-28-2005, 03:29 PM

So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender. I think it's just a matter of people fear change. The hardcore Brothers/Sisters from all same sex chapters (not all, but at least some) seem to be the most adament in keeping gender lines, and why? How am I, or a female Brother, detrimental to the organization?

My point was to simply provide an example of how such a change can cause problems with the other non-coed chapter if one chapter becomes co-ed, particulalry if the chapter which becomes co-ed is seen as more popular/powerful/better etc. than the single sex group.

Of course same sex chapters fear change! Why shouldn't they? Where are the statistics that say changing to co ed is beneficial to both organizations when both exist at the same school as same sex groups? Isn't it possible that the same sex status provides a certain clarity to why the two programs exist at one school simultaneously? That changing to co ed could potentially confuse the issue for incoming band members? It's possible, isn't it?

There is no reason to turn in your badge. However I question the ability to attract new male members into an organization which insists on calling the male initiates "sisters." You have no desire to be a "brother"? and what is wrong with "brother" anyway? Is it showing less respect? It certainly is a much more appropriate title.

Milkhakeax

07-28-2005, 09:55 PM

Isn't it possible that the same sex status provides a certain clarity to why the two programs exist at one school simultaneously? That changing to co ed could potentially confuse the issue for incoming band members? It's possible, isn't it?

Which then can be turned around to, why do we have two organizations anyways? You know what, let's get rid of TBS while we're at it!

I don't know about anyone else, but the school I went to had two organizations that had two different personalities and two different styles of business, with a similar purpose: Tau Beta Sigma and Kappa Kappa Psi. We support bands, that's our a major part of our purpose, but in no way does that mean that we are the same or that we should follow the same paths. TBS is different than KKPsi, and the other way around and that's a good thing.

I have no desire to be a Brother because I am not one. I am a Sister in a sorority, and there many other male Sisters that share my sentiments. It's not that there is anything wrong with being a Brother, it's just not who we are. And from a legal stand point, no one within either organization can deny that.

blkwebman1919

08-01-2005, 02:31 AM

I always find it interesting that many in the blue and white fam who are part of co-ed chapters generalize that those who are in gender-specific chapters "fear change", as if those chapters "aren't enlightened", or need to "come out of the dark ages", or something along those lines.

Just for the sake of argument: Change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing. In many situations, change means loss of stability, loss of tradition, loss of history, etc., etc.

I was made in a gender-specific chapter of KKPsi and the fact that it was gender-specific had a lot to do with defining its character. I'm a graduate of an HBCU. In the Black Greek community, fraternities are all-male and sororities are all-female. Nothing more, nothing less. We wouldn't have it any other way, and no-one feels discriminated against, or restricted, or what have you.

Honestly, I would recognize a female member of KKPsi (I've met a few and they're cool). I would never (at least not intentionally) snub anyone; that's just not my nature. I even met a couple of male members of TBS many years ago. I have to admit, though, that the term "male sister" still throws me (but, that's just me). I'm "old school", though, so sue me.... ;-)

That being said, I do appreciate that some schools chose to switch to co-ed chapters or decided to colonize as such. They have their reasons and their history. However, DO NOT discount or trivialize the same of us who came through single-sex chapters. Our characteristics define our chapters just as co-ed chapters do theirs. Just as co-ed chapters wouldn't imagine being any other way, neither do single-sex chapters.

Empress0105

08-17-2005, 08:09 PM

@ milk....i dont think this is the place to bring up rit...BUT if you really wanna take it to that degree of turning in membership and stuff....

Tau Bata Sigma National Honorary Band Sorority provides service to collegiate bands ENCOURAGES THE ADVANCEMENT OF WOMEN IN THE BAND PROFESSION....you know the rest.

So do I think ti's great that you as a male encourages female involvement in the band...I still gotta wonder why you'd want to do that when it doesnt directly affect you.

Dont take it so personally, like the brother said earlier....those of us from single sex chapters (and it's more than just HBCUs that feel this way...ie Troy State as one example) just have a different outlook on what our orgs should be like....it's the same debate (to me) as wearing nailia in colors not officially recognized as frat or sorority colors (fyi, though I am a member of an HBCU chapter, I do not agree with the "touch of gold"...I personally think it's just as bad as wearing pink or polka dot letters...but again thats just me)

33girl

08-18-2005, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by DGMarie
There is no reason to turn in your badge. However I question the ability to attract new male members into an organization which insists on calling the male initiates "sisters." You have no desire to be a "brother"? and what is wrong with "brother" anyway? Is it showing less respect? It certainly is a much more appropriate title.

Pardon my crash, but as a female Alpha Phi Omega member I have gone around with this. You ask is it showing less respect? I believe it definitely would be. Are the female members of KKPsi called "sister"? Do they have any desire to be called "sister"? If not, well then, there's your answer.

bonelifer

10-02-2005, 12:14 AM

33girl you are currently missing some facts. Those facts are in the early to mid 1970's Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma both put it to a vote at the National Convenetion. Kappa Kappa Psi decided that all member of KKPsi would be called Brothers. On the other hand Tau Beta Sigma decided that male members would have the ability to decide whether or not they are a Brother or Sister of Tau Beta Sigma. This is one of those reasons why your comments don't match the discussion at hand. It really wouldn't matter if a female member of Kappa Kappa Psi wanted to be called a sister of Kappa Kappa Psi, since the National Chapter in the 1970's at a regularly called convention put it into KKPsi LAW that they would be called Brother. Therefore it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

33girl

10-02-2005, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by bonelifer
33girl you are currently missing some facts. Those facts are in the early to mid 1970's Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma both put it to a vote at the National Convenetion. Kappa Kappa Psi decided that all member of KKPsi would be called Brothers. On the other hand Tau Beta Sigma decided that male members would have the ability to decide whether or not they are a Brother or Sister of Tau Beta Sigma. This is one of those reasons why your comments don't match the discussion at hand. It really wouldn't matter if a female member of Kappa Kappa Psi wanted to be called a sister of Kappa Kappa Psi, since the National Chapter in the 1970's at a regularly called convention put it into KKPsi LAW that they would be called Brother. Therefore it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

I was responding to Marie's post, in which she says that TBS "insists" on calling the male initiates sisters. Apparently she is the one missing the facts. I didn't realize I was responding to a faulty post. However, my main point is that KKPsi members are called brothers and apparently the female members don't have a problem with it. So I don't see why it couldn't swing both ways.

DGMarie

10-03-2005, 01:09 AM

My appologies. I did not mean to ever imply that TBS insists that male member be called sisters. I believe I was replying to this quote:

Milkhakeax: So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender.

Milhakeax was the one who called himself a sister. Whether this is nationally acclaimed policy or not, is it the practice I have seen in several TBS chapters with male members. I think such practice, whether sanctioned or not, would be a turn off to potential male members. Why not just be a brother of TBS? What is so bad about that??

Measi

10-03-2005, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by DGMarie
My appologies. I did not mean to ever imply that TBS insists that male member be called sisters. I believe I was replying to this quote:

Milkhakeax: So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender.

Milhakeax was the one who called himself a sister. Whether this is nationally acclaimed policy or not, is it the practice I have seen in several TBS chapters with male members. I think such practice, whether sanctioned or not, would be a turn off to potential male members. Why not just be a brother of TBS? What is so bad about that??

What's so bad about it is that you're critiquing someone for identifying themselves correctly. He, and the members of his chapter, have a tradition of calling men Sisters. And as you've stated, several chapters do this-- because it's TRADITION. Just like the tradition at each school that determines whether men will even be welcome to join TBS, or women KKY. What's so bad about men calling themselves Sisters, if that's what they are, and that's the bond they share? Do you feel it devalues your experience as a Sister?

The men of my chapter call themselves Sisters. They simply adopted the term, because that's what everyone else uses in our chapter. If a man came along in my chapter, and preferred to call himself a Brother, I'd respect that, but it would sound very strange to me for a while. It's the tradition-- just like yours was a single-sex only. It's an understood-- if you join TBS, you are a sister. It also helps, when not wearing letters, to identify who is in what organization. In my alma mater's band, if a woman or man says that (s)he is a Sister, everyone knows (s)he's in TBS. If (s)he says (s)he's a Brother, everyone knows (s)he's in KKY.

Like any other chapter, new members learn the traditions and embrace them. If they can't embrace them, then their pursuit of membership may be denied. I'm sure there were traditions of your chapter that were assumed traditions that everyone followed without question. It's part of membership in any GLO. For example, when I became a member of TBS, both of our chapters were single-sex, and it was understood that no woman would pursue membership in KKY, and no men in TBS. That did change, however. And now I have male Sisters.

As for deterring men from joining TBS-- if it's based solely on being called a Sister, then I'd have to question whether or not they wanted to be part of an organization that was founded, and still has a majority focus on female membership. I admire the men who do join TBS, because overall I think they have a lot more emotions to go through (internal and from external sources) than the women who join KKY.

And Milhakeax, never, ever let someone try to shame you for being a Sister... I am proud that you are part of my chapter's extended family. :)

LITB,
Melissa