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unsure05
03-07-2005, 04:29 PM
at this point, I'm a little afraid of them so I'm removing my post.

Thanks for the pm's and letting me know a few different viewpoints. I think I'm going to depledge but I'm too afraid of them to talk to any higher-ups about it. Three of my pledge sisters have already left.

ambición6
03-07-2005, 04:59 PM
I may be in the minority here, or maybe not, but w/o giving specific examples of what you are being made to do, well I can't really say IMO "yes, its hazing", or "no, its not"

either way, did you really expect a pledging process to be walk in the park.

I dont consider things like quizzes, line ups, having to learn information, wearing a pledge pin, etc hazing. but there is that thin line of course when quizzes and learning information can cross the line into hazing if you are being made to learn random information that is not going to be in your final exam or being treated like the personal slave of a member.

but again, w/o details, its an iffy situation. and then again, not being NPC, things that we do in our process would be considered outright hazing by other orgs (even though our National Board (which I sit on) does not consider it hazing).

Tom Earp
03-07-2005, 06:54 PM
A lot must be what you consider hazing.

If it is stress full to you, then it is.

But again, We do not know what you are made to do and dont really want to know. That is between you and your prospective group.

If you are made to learn certain things about the group, learn them.

If you are to stressed out, then get out only after you talk with you big or a member of the Officer Cadray.

If it is just making you try to learn, conform, or what ever, then do it if you feel comfortable with this group. If not then de associate.

You must have felt something to have joined them in the first place!

alphaalpha
03-08-2005, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by SirHornyToad
Honestly, if your looking for a shoulder to cry on, don't look on mine.

I wouldn't consider any of that hazing.

I am a Knight, I am called Sir. My pledges are squires, they are called squire so and so. Our rookies are rookies, they don't know shit, so they aren't allowed to always vote or have a say in things, as they havent seen how things work. Our rookies clean the house after our weekly meeting and are in charge of our recycling program.

About a month ago myself and my little brother were visiting a friend of mine at another univirsity and we went to some other frats party, when my drink ran out he got me another. When my drink ran out he got myslef and a girl i was talking to another. He did it without asking but knew his place and did it, one guy i was talking to at that frat asked if he was a pledge and i told him "no, he's my little brother, he's a rookie, he's suppossed to do that" and he replied saying they arent even allowed to have thier pledges do that. Honestly, whatever, thats pussy shit in my opinion. I love my brothers, especially my lil, But I learned my place when i was a dumb rookie who didn't know shit, and so will my lil brother.

Now, i would consider this hazing, but that is the different from NPC.

To the original question, you and you alone can determine what you feel is hazing. not to say that hazing can be subjective, but if you are reguired to do things that make you uncomfortable then to you it is hazing. I don't think that you owe anyone an explaination. If i were you, i would just leave. If i was asked why then i would give an explaination, but you should not feel obligated to give one. Also, i would write out a letter and send it to the national organization (if there is one) or the greek counsil at your school. Some one has to be in charge say a school administrator. I would tell them the simple facts. As clear and unemotional as possible. Right out how you see this non hazing policy consisting of hazing and how you feel that these actions should not occur and can be construde as hazing. Now, i know that i just said unemotional and then stated to include how you feel. I just want to be clear. You can express you feelings without including your emotions. Think of it like feeling out a police report. You need to include the facts,without biase.

Good luck,
debbie

qteasied
03-08-2005, 06:23 AM
No organization should ever be a reason why your grades are slipping. If they are, then they're not a positive part of your life.

Unregistered-
03-08-2005, 06:28 AM
Before I joined AGD, I pledged a local that made their pledges do many of the things you mentioned. I knew these were good girls aside from the fact, and the reason why I pledged in the first place was because I was comfortable with them outside of the whole sorority thing.

During pledge period I became uncomfortable with the things they wanted us to do and I questioned whether or not I wanted to be a part of it because going along with it would be going against something I didn't really believe in.

Keep in mind that this was before GC...before I learned about different types of hazing...before I joined AGD so I didn't know about what the NPC's standards and things like that. When I approached the sisters of the local about my concerns, they knew it was hazing. They just did it because of "tradition".

You will get thousands of NPC women here on GC who will say that they things you mentioned are forms of hazing because..well, that's what we've been taught. Then you'll get members of other orgs who will say otherwise because they probably went through that stuff too -- and they got through it. That's their thing.

What's most important is where YOU draw the line. You've already established the fact that you don't agree with these things, so I think you're making a great decision. Don't let others tell you otherwise.

I don't know how your campus admin is like, so I can't tell you what to do as far as reporting them. I can tell you from my experience that I fully regret not going to the Director of RIOs...only because seeing them continue this BS has done nothing but give the Greeks on my campus a bad name.

kddani
03-08-2005, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by SirHornyToad
Honestly, if your looking for a shoulder to cry on, don't look on mine.

I wouldn't consider any of that hazing.

I am a Knight, I am called Sir. My pledges are squires, they are called squire so and so. Our rookies are rookies, they don't know shit, so they aren't allowed to always vote or have a say in things, as they havent seen how things work. Our rookies clean the house after our weekly meeting and are in charge of our recycling program.

About a month ago myself and my little brother were visiting a friend of mine at another univirsity and we went to some other frats party, when my drink ran out he got me another. When my drink ran out he got myslef and a girl i was talking to another. He did it without asking but knew his place and did it, one guy i was talking to at that frat asked if he was a pledge and i told him "no, he's my little brother, he's a rookie, he's suppossed to do that" and he replied saying they arent even allowed to have thier pledges do that. Honestly, whatever, thats pussy shit in my opinion. I love my brothers, especially my lil, But I learned my place when i was a dumb rookie who didn't know shit, and so will my lil brother.

Dude, why are you always trying to make your fraternity look so bad ass? Does it get you respect from anyone in real life? It sure gets you less respect around here and you look like a tool.

boz130
03-08-2005, 10:20 AM
Unsure05, check your PM...

DeltAlum
03-08-2005, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by SirHornyToad
Honestly, if your looking for a shoulder to cry on, don't look on mine.

I wouldn't consider any of that hazing.
It doesn't really matter what you do or don't consider hazing. It's what the laws of any given state or rules of any university say that count -- whether you agree or not.

GeekyPenguin
03-08-2005, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by SirHornyToad
Honestly, if your looking for a shoulder to cry on, don't look on mine.

I wouldn't consider any of that hazing.

I am a Knight, I am called Sir. My pledges are squires, they are called squire so and so. O

Do you joust? Do you have initiation at the Bristol Ren Faire?

Anyway, to the first poster - if it is stuff you aren't comfortable with and you can't see a clear purpose for doing it, I would talk to your pledgemaster/dean of intake/whatever her title is and tell her that you're unhappy, you personally feel like this is hazing, and you're unsure if you want to go through with the process.

kddani
03-08-2005, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Do you joust? Do you have initiation at the Bristol Ren Faire?


It's the medieval times of fraternities! Totally reminds me of the Carnegie Mellon nerds that I would see dressed up in medieval costumes doing fake sword fighting and jousting over in the park that separates our campuses. Wow, those people were just SO cool

:rolleyes:

DeltAlum
03-08-2005, 12:00 PM
Hijack.

Having little to do with anything, I believe it is still true that only one state has a truly official State Sport. The state is Maryland and the sport is Ring Jousting.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled side show.

TxAPhi
03-08-2005, 12:09 PM
Extended hijack.

Texas' State Sport is the Rodeo --- no joke! it was a House Resolution in 1997 (http://castor.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/symbols.html) :) And our dance is the square dance so you know we are cool.....

Rudey
03-08-2005, 12:40 PM
I laughed when he called y'all pussies.

I laughed when you guys asked if he jousted.

I laughed when I learned the official sport of Maryland.

-Rudey

Kevin
03-08-2005, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by kddani
It's the medieval times of fraternities! Totally reminds me of the Carnegie Mellon nerds that I would see dressed up in medieval costumes doing fake sword fighting and jousting over in the park that separates our campuses. Wow, those people were just SO cool

:rolleyes:

Actually, there are many fraternities that have different titles for their members besides "initiates" and "pledges". Many are national fraternities. Let's not bag on him for that. There are other things...

I really don't get into lecturing individuals from small local fraternities. I seem to recall him saying they had around 6 members or so.. (maybe I'm wrong?).

Whether 6 guys want to have "tradition", make younger guys get them drinks and stuff like that or not is really nothing I'm going to ever worry about. Horny, your group is called the "Lancers" or something like that, right? It doesn't even take on a Greek name..

If it's illegal where you're at, it's on you and your alums if something should go wrong.. You obviously know that, and are continuing to do it. I could care less whether you get caught or not. Whether you do or not will make no difference in all likelihood to anyone not associated with your group. Best of luck doing what y'all do.

Unregistered-
03-08-2005, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by ktsnake

I really don't get into lecturing individuals from small local fraternities. I seem to recall him saying they had around 6 members or so.. (maybe I'm wrong?).

Whether 6 guys want to have "tradition", make younger guys get them drinks and stuff like that or not is really nothing I'm going to ever worry about. Horny, your group is called the "Lancers" or something like that, right? It doesn't even take on a Greek name..

If it's illegal where you're at, it's on you and your alums if something should go wrong.. You obviously know that, and are continuing to do it. I could care less whether you get caught or not. Whether you do or not will make no difference in all likelihood to anyone not associated with your group. Best of luck doing what y'all do.

Technically Whittier College doesn't have a Greek life, but they have "societies" -- which is pretty much similar to it. An Alpha Gam chapter sister was a Palmer before she came to UHM and joined us.

You don't like it when GCers lecture those from small local fraternities...and I can't stand it when those from small local/non NPC orgs call us "weak" (I'm refraining from what they usually call us) just because our pledge/NM program isn't as rigorous as theirs.

PhoenixAzul
03-08-2005, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by kddani
It's the medieval times of fraternities! Totally reminds me of the Carnegie Mellon nerds that I would see dressed up in medieval costumes doing fake sword fighting and jousting over in the park that separates our campuses. Wow, those people were just SO cool

:rolleyes:

hehehe, I was/am one of those kids...muwahaha. It's good times. Just don't get in the middle of an intense game of Vampire:The maquerade .

PS, I can't stand it when members from nationals lecture us on how our pledge programs are hazing and how we could merge with a national....no one has moral high ground here.

unsure05
03-08-2005, 03:27 PM
Thanks everyone. Both sides of your arguments helped me sort things out. Yes, I knew it wouldn't be easy but I expected I didn't expect to despise seeing my line sisters and elders. And personally, if I were to pick sisters who would uphold the sorority ideals of leadership etc, I would not want girls who would agree to be treated this way. I'd want girls who would say, "No. I don't take sh*t from anybody!"

I've made the decision to bow out but I'm really afraid of talking to any board members or whatnot so I won't. One person can't change a system.

Little E
03-08-2005, 03:41 PM
Good Luck with whatever happens.

Just from my experience: Remember that pettiness can bloom post-deactivation. Keep your head high and if they harass you at all, stear clear of being alone w/them. Something to keep in mind if anyone asks why you left is how much do you really want the world to know. If you are worried about the reaction from this group keep your reasons to yourself to prevent drama.

Unregistered-
03-08-2005, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by unsure05
I've made the decision to bow out but I'm really afraid of talking to any board members or whatnot so I won't. One person can't change a system.

No one's expecting you to be the hero and save the day. You can't change the system singlehandedly, but there may be people OUTSIDE this organization who might want to know about this, especially if their pledge program violates any campus/state anti-hazing laws.

TSteven
03-08-2005, 05:20 PM
Whittier College
Student Handbook (http://www.whittier.edu/student/resources/Whittier_HB.pdf)
Academic Year
2004-2005

CODE OF STUDENTS’ RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES

C. COLLEGE REGULATIONS

Whittier College has established only those regulations that are considered necessary to preserve and maintain an environment conducive to learning, to ensure the safety and welfare of members of the College community, to encourage students in the development and practice of good citizenship and self-discipline, and to protect the property and equipment of the College.

The following conduct is prohibited:

13. Hazing

Violation of Sections 32050 and 32051 of the California Education Code and Whittier College policy. The text of these sections is reprinted here.

Section 32051. Hazing Prohibited. No student, or other person in attendance at any public, private, parochial or military school, community college, college, university, or other educational institution, shall conspire to engage in hazing, participate in hazing, or commit any act that causes or is likely to cause bodily danger, physical harm, or personal degradation or disgrace resulting in physical or mental harm to any fellow student or person attending the institution. The violation of this section is a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5000) and imprisonment in the county jail for more than one year, or both.

Section 32050. “Hazing” Defined. Hazing includes any method of initiation or pre-initiation into a student organization or any pastime or amusement engaged in with respect to such an organization which causes, or is likely to cause, bodily danger, physical harm, or personal degradation or disgrace resulting in physical or mental harm to any student, to another person attending any school, community college, college, university, or other educational institution in this state.

Penalties for Hazing. Any person who participates in the hazing of another, or any corporation or association which knowingly permits hazing to be conducted by its members or by others subject to its discretion or control, shall forfeit any entitlement to state funds, scholarships or awards which are enjoyed by him, by her, or by it and shall be deprived of any sanction or approval granted by any public educational institution or agency.

From the Fraternity Insurance Purchasing Group (FIPG) Risk Management manual: Hazing activities are defined as: Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule.

Such activities may include but are not limited to the following:

• Use of alcohol
• Paddling in any form
• Creation of excessive fatigue
• Physical and psychological shocks
• Quests
• Treasure hunts
• Scavenger hunts
• Road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house
• Wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste
• Engaging in public stunts and buffoonery
• Morally degrading or humiliating games and activities
• And any other such activities that are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy, or the regulation and policies of the educational institution.

Little E
03-08-2005, 05:32 PM
Did the hazing legislation that was in front of congress go through? It was like a year ago, the thread never said what the outcome was. I'mjust curious.

Tom Earp
03-08-2005, 05:51 PM
TS, thanks for the info.

Now, I am still wondering if this HornyToad is a member of a Real Greek National Organization, a local HS or just a College Group who professes to be a Greek Organization?

While all Greek Organizations have certain ways to call their New Associates, Pledges or what ever, this makes my head swim trying to figure out what I would be considered for position of said Group!:(

Damn, does this Pledge Ship run as long as the war of the roses?:rolleyes:

DeltAlum
03-08-2005, 08:40 PM
Two questions, Sir Toad:

1) Does it tell you anything when an entire class depledges?

2) Do you understand that no matter what your opinion, what you are doing appears to be hazing and thus illegal and against the rules of your college?

kddani
03-08-2005, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by DeltAlum
Two questions, Sir Toad:

1) Does it tell you anything when an entire class depledges?

2) Do you understand that no matter what your opinion, what you are doing appears to be hazing and thus illegal and against the rules of your college?

Amen and amen.

SirHornyToad- your chapter has some issues, obviously. Maybe it's time for things to change into a more positive environment.

Never understood how someone could want to be friends with someone who treats them like shit... as your group treats it's new members, with this superiority ranking. It's kind of like a person stuck in an abusive relationship, to me.

Rudey
03-08-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by DeltAlum
Two questions, Sir Toad:

1) Does it tell you anything when an entire class depledges?

2) Do you understand that no matter what your opinion, what you are doing appears to be hazing and thus illegal and against the rules of your college?

How is what he's doing illegal?

And many fraternities may not want to be large or take in a large class. Heck the class may have depledged for another reason.

On the other hand, SirHornyToad, you shouldn't think that having your squires and maidens bring you drinks is teaching them anything other than being subservient (not your equal, not your brother).

-Rudey

ZetaGirl22
03-08-2005, 10:31 PM
*totally off topic*
Phoenix-
Vampire: The Masquerade?!?!?! YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!
tabletop or live action? :p

DeltAlum
03-08-2005, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Rudey
How is what he's doing illegal?
Well, it would appear he is hazing which is illegal under California law.

Rudey
03-08-2005, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by DeltAlum
Well, it would appear he is hazing which is illegal under California law.

You know you're not going to change him or his society and he knows the Delts will operate differently from his society.

I think he knows the attitudes out there already. What more is there to say?

I'm just trying to make everyone happy.

-Rudey

AGDee
03-09-2005, 12:00 AM
What becomes frustrating is that, whether a society/fraternity/sorority is local, national or regional, when a chapter is hazing, it ends up reflecting badly on all of us. If we don't stand up against it, whether we successfully change someone's mind or not, it is the same as condoning it.

alphaalpha
03-09-2005, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Little E
Good Luck with whatever happens.

Just from my experience: Remember that pettiness can bloom post-deactivation. Keep your head high and if they harass you at all, stear clear of being alone w/them. Something to keep in mind if anyone asks why you left is how much do you really want the world to know. If you are worried about the reaction from this group keep your reasons to yourself to prevent drama.

Read up in what happened to that girl at the colorado school who depledged from Delta Delta Delta.

To the original poster:
I do wish you the best of luck.

Rudey
03-09-2005, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by AGDee
What becomes frustrating is that, whether a society/fraternity/sorority is local, national or regional, when a chapter is hazing, it ends up reflecting badly on all of us. If we don't stand up against it, whether we successfully change someone's mind or not, it is the same as condoning it.

I don't condone it. But I'm also a realist.

-Rudey

PhoenixAzul
03-09-2005, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by ZetaGirl22
*totally off topic*
Phoenix-
Vampire: The Masquerade?!?!?! YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!
tabletop or live action? :p

Little from column A, a little from column B!!! hahaha. I feel a resurrgance of 11th grade :)

kddani
03-09-2005, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by SirHornyToad
Honestly, if your looking for a shoulder to cry on, don't look on mine.... Our rookies are rookies, they don't know shit, Honestly, whatever, thats pussy shit in my opinion. I love my brothers, especially my lil, But I learned my place when i was a dumb rookie who didn't know shit, and so will my lil brother.

When you say things like the above quotes, it's no wonder that people don't look kindly upon what you've said on here and what you say your fraternity does

GeekyPenguin
03-09-2005, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by kddani
When you say things like the above quotes, it's no wonder that people don't look kindly upon what you've said on here and what you say your fraternity does

Silence, you dumb rookie! You knave! You scourge upon humanity! Go get me a goblet of ale and then we shall JOUST!

kddani
03-09-2005, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Silence, you dumb rookie! You knave! You scourge upon humanity! Go get me a goblet of ale and then we shall JOUST!

off with your head or else get ME a damn goblet of ale you wench! You legal rookie!

The only time i've heard rookie be used is in HS band (yay for hazing... :rolleyes: ) and in a professional sports setting.

GeekyPenguin
03-09-2005, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by kddani
off with your head or else get ME a damn goblet of ale you wench! You legal rookie!

The only time i've heard rookie be used is in HS band (yay for hazing... :rolleyes: ) and in a professional sports setting.

Jousting in band would be pretty sweet - the trombones would totally win though.