Bush Wins

[PhiPsiRuss]

I'm going to call the obvious right here, right now since the media are being to cautious.

Congratulations to President Bush, and his supporters. Lets all rally behind him and help move America forward.

[Pike1483]

I'm calling it!!! BUSH WINS!

[AlphaSigOU]

Barring any major changes... the Commander-in-Chief stays!

[SigmaChiGuy]

Good for Bush - Four more years of a man, with a backbone, in the whitehouse.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

[ADPiZXalum]

Four more years!!!! Four more years!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevin]

I voted for Bush. Given the choice (or lack thereof), I felt that was all I could do. I used to be a pretty big fan, but his big government policies have kind of left me feeling like the Republican party is no longer adequate for a large number of Americans.

Kerry, I think would have been FAR worse and anything that pisses of Chirac is good in my book ;)

4 more years :D

[Love_Spell_6]

THis is just so funny. Kerry supporters don't know what to do with themselves. THey can't understand how someone who almost all of the media, popular hollywood stars, and the talking heads painted Dubya as this evil man..but he still won the MAJORITY of the vote! I love it!!! Never would they re-think their position and look at maybe what they missed when sizing up the Prez. Never would they wonder why most of the military supports Dubya. Instead they will continue in their rhetoric for 4 more years..except this time they can't say Re-defeat anybody LOL.

So now I use this post to say how proud of my fellow Americans I am. TO vote for a man when at every turn the media was telling you so many UNtruths about him. You voted your conscience.


GO USA!!!!!

GO DUBYA!!!

4 MORE YEARS!!!

(please disregard the above post if Bush happens to lose Ohio LOL)

[Love_Spell_6]

http://www.glennbeck.com/picoftheday/08-09-04-pod.jpg

[adpiucf]

4 more years!

[wreckingcrew]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
http://www.glennbeck.com/picoftheday/08-09-04-pod.jpg

L-Spell,

that post MAKES my Election Day/Evening/Hangover!!

I can only hope that's the face the Queen of Ketchup is making at this hour.

Four More Years!!! Then we run Jeb ;)

KS 361

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
Four more years!!!! Four more years!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yer thinkin' wrong... it's "Four more beers!" "Four more beers!" :D

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
THis is just so funny. Kerry supporters don't know what to do with themselves. THey can't understand how someone who almost all of the media, popular hollywood stars, and the talking heads painted Dubya as this evil man..but he still won the MAJORITY of the vote! I love it!!! Never would they re-think their position and look at maybe what they missed when sizing up the Prez. Never would they wonder why most of the military supports Dubya. Instead they will continue in their rhetoric for 4 more years..except this time they can't say Re-defeat anybody LOL.

So now I use this post to say how proud of my fellow Americans I am. TO vote for a man when at every turn the media was telling you so many UNtruths about him. You voted your conscience.


GO USA!!!!!

GO DUBYA!!!

4 MORE YEARS!!!

(please disregard the above post if Bush happens to lose Ohio LOL)

LOL at the last line.

I'm not happy with the results but I can take comfort in the fact that I'm proud of my fellow Americans as well. Not happy with the choice but we got out and let our voices be heard.

But four more years of this. :rolleyes: Wake me when it's over.

[ZTAngel]

According to the AP, Kerry has called Bush to concede.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20041103/ap_on_el_pr/eln_election_rdp

[ADPiZXalum]

Originally posted by AlphaSigOU
Yer thinkin' wrong... it's "Four more beers!" "Four more beers!" :D

Doh!! Stupid me!
That's what Kitso is still thinking about after Saturday. :D

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~gorilla/strangetalk/distressflag.gif

Dear Rest of the World: Please only carpet-bomb the red states.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~gorilla/strangetalk/distressflag.gif

Dear Rest of the World: Please only carpet-bomb the red states.

What is wrong with you? You said you would leave America. Please make it as soon as possible Benedict.

-Rudey
--How do you even think saying something like that is acceptable?!?

[AznSAE]

bush won over 58M of the popular vote, more than clinton and reagan. radio station had said this, can anyone confirm clinton's and reagan's popular vote? GO BUSH!!!

[XOMichelle]

My fellow Americans, I am dissapointed. I still don't understand HOW you can think Bush is a good leader.

[UGAGal]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
My fellow Americans, I am dissapointed. I still don't understand HOW you can think Bush is a good leader.

SERIOUSLY! http://codehearted.com/for/freedom/seriously.mpg

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
My fellow Americans, I am dissapointed. I still don't understand HOW you can think Bush is a good leader.

We have our reasons.

As for "carpet-bombing the red states"; give me a break, that's an awful comment.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by UGAGal
SERIOUSLY! http://codehearted.com/for/freedom/seriously.mpg

I am sorry that even after the election you are spreading lies and half-truths.

The election is over. Whether you like why people voted for a candidate or not doesn't matter. This video is beyond ridiculous and I believe it was Moveon.org that had it first.

-Rudey
--So sorry you lost, but I'd like to see people stop campaigning now.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
My fellow Americans, I am dissapointed. I still don't understand HOW you can think Bush is a good leader.

And we don't understand HOW you can think Kerry is a good leader.

-Rudey

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

Originally posted by Rudey
And we don't understand HOW you can think Kerry is a good leader.

-Rudey

Dont blame me- I caucused Dean.

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
My fellow Americans, I am dissapointed. I still don't understand HOW you can think Bush is a good leader.

Dont blame me- I voted Kerry.

[Jill1228]

What he said!

Reminds me of a sticker I saw:

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for the bastard!

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
Dont blame me- I voted Kerry.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by AznSAE
bush won over 58M of the popular vote, more than clinton and reagan. radio station had said this, can anyone confirm clinton's and reagan's popular vote? GO BUSH!!!

At least Dems will finally shut up about the stolen election now.

[ADPiZXalum]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
My fellow Americans, I am dissapointed. I still don't understand HOW you can think Bush is a good leader.

Just as we can not understand how you honestly believe Kerry would've been a better leader. We all have our reasons. :D

[MTSUGURL]

I voted Bush! FOUR MORE YEARS! WHOO HOO!!!!

[dekeguy]

I don't care whether you are a Democrat or a Republican, that's your choice. I do expect that you are an American and will now close ranks and get on with life in our country. I am appalled by the comment regarding carpet bombing the "red states". This is very close to giving aid and comfort to the enemy. You may be free to feel that way, but then I am free to react in my way. Any man who would hold this view is invited to discuss the matter with me at any convenient time and place, the sooner the better. I suggest the old fashioned approach, a pre-breakfast meeting with pistols for two, coffee for one.
As to any one who would like to take a shot at any of our States, go ahead and take your best shot, but don't miss, I won't.
dekeguy
Captain, USAR
Been there, and ready to go again

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
[BDear Rest of the World: Please only carpet-bomb the red states. [/B]
So I assume you will be leaving Iowa (which will most likely go red when everything's all counted) before this happens?? I rather like the state, thankyouverymuch.

[AlphaGamDiva]

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! LAND THAT I LOVE!!!!! BUSH WON!!! KERRY LOST! AND ALL IS RIGHT IN THE WORRRRRLD!

i am just so happy about the election! no one can say "re-defeat"....michael moore can totally STFU and move to guam for all i care, and i'm SO thrilled that everyone's "vote or die" shirts were so convincing b/c there were record numbers voting in all states and bush won with i believe 51% of the popular vote and that's the most anyone's had since 1988....since bush sr. :D clinton was, i also believe, no where near that....ever... interesting.

as for your "red state" comment.......i'll buy you a plane ticket. just let me know where ya wanna go. :mad:

[sageofages]

Originally posted by ktsnake
At least Dems will finally shut up about the stolen election now.

GWB would not have been able to be elected this time had the 2000 election NOT been stolen....so no, that fact will not fade away.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
I am just so happy about the election! no one can say "re-defeat"....michael moore can totally STFU and move to guam for all i care,

Guam? That's too nice a place to send his sorry ass! How about a one-way ticket to Pyongyang for him? Just make sure he surrenders his passport and renounces his citizenship before he boards the plane! :D

[krazy]

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/EDUCATION/01/01/banned.bushisms.reut/story.bush.thumb.jpg

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sageofages
GWB would not have been able to be elected this time had the 2000 election NOT been stolen....so no, that fact will not fade away.

Stolen? How's that?

-Rudey
--What fact?

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by sageofages
GWB would not have been able to be elected this time had the 2000 election NOT been stolen....so no, that fact will not fade away.


pam, feel free to stop by my office in WDM and i'll show you the NYT and CNN studies that disagree.

[mrblonde]

Stolen: (adj.) something taken without the knowledge or consent of its owner

(Dem): a constitutionally written process which doesnt go your way (see also: whining about it for eight years) ;)

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AlphaSigOU
Yer thinkin' wrong... it's "Four more beers!" "Four more beers!" :D It is "four more beers," which surprised me because I never would have thought that Republicans would encourage that kind of behavior.

[RACooper]

Well as a member of the Canadian military I am in a way relieved that Bush won... because of his unilateralism it means a much lower chance of me having to go to Iraq (hate the sand and heat). If Kerry had won, it might have been easier to sell NATO or UN invovlement in Iraq... which I have no deisre to see.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~gorilla/strangetalk/distressflag.gif

Dear Rest of the World: Please only carpet-bomb the red states. That's the type of demagogic and flippant attitude that alienates alternative perspectives from mainstream America.

[kafromTN]

It's all b.s. read this article.

http://sfgate.com/columnists/sparks/


Thank you.
Mark

[wreckingcrew]

has CNN called Ohio for Bush yet?


KS 361

[phigamucsb]

lol. CNN was so incredibly biased on election night that it wasn't even funny. They refused to call Ohio for Bush although almost every other network(except ABC I think)had.

[DeltAlum]

When I finally gave up and went to bed (12:30 AM Mountain time) only NBC had called Ohio for Bush to the best of my knowledge.

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by phigamucsb
lol. CNN was so incredibly biased on election night that it wasn't even funny. They refused to call Ohio for Bush although almost every other network(except ABC I think)had.

i think most stations were trying to avoid a repeat of 2000.

[SSS1365]

I'm happy, not because I love Bush but because I didn't trust Kerry.

Now that it's over, can we please just be mature? Because this "bomb the red states" mentality is really terrible. It's sad that we, as a nation, have become so divided. What happened to patriotism and standing behind the president whether or not you personally like him? It seems to me that those days are over. I'm not ashamed of this country, but I am ashamed of the people who have that kind of negative attitude.

[hottytoddy]

I'll say this. When it comes to politics: I am an American FIRST, republican second. I am obviously pleased about the outcome of the election. But if Kerry had won, I would still be American and I would support OUR President. I may not have liked it if Kerry had won, but that why we have an election...so everyone has a voice...and no one voice is better than the next. So can we please quit with the rude comments about our President and the "red states" and all? It's over... for now. You will have another chance to speak your voice in four years. But for now try to support our leader.

[AlphaSigOU]

Ahem... people are forgetting that the red states have the concentration of 550 Minuteman III ICBMs in silos throughout Wyoming, Colorado, and North Dakota, along with bomber and tanker bases at Minot and Grand Forks, North Dakota, Rapid City, South Dakota, Sedalia, Missouri and Bossier City, Louisiana.

Not to mention well-protected command and control facilities in Colorado Springs and Omaha.

Bomb the red states? We'll annihilate the blue states! :D

Seriously, folks, if ya can't respect the man the people have rightly elected to the highest elective office in the United States, at least respect the office. I'm a registered Republican and I voted for Bush, though I don't necessarily agree or am in lock-step with his policies.

BTW, Captain Dekeguy... need a referee for the duel? At least this ex-military cook can make coffee! :D

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by AlphaSigOU
..if ya can't respect the man the people have rightly elected to the highest elective office in the United States, at least respect the office.
Yes.

Remember, the term is "loyal opposition."

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

More Americans voted against George Bush than any sitting president in history. :p

[cash78mere]

god help us all with 4 more years of him...

[Rudey]

Originally posted by cash78mere
god help us all with 4 more years of him...

He already did help us in blocking 4 years of Kerry and making sure those Democrats couldn't muster enough votes.

Do people realize that when they make these obnoxious comments that it doesn't sit well with people and people respond?

-Rudey

[smiley21]

well i was a news nerd all day long. i even left one of my classes early to catch Kerry's concession speech. even in my car, i had it on Fox News

[aurora_borealis]

So your candidate didn't win? It happens to people in every election.

Take your energy from complaining, whining, and moaning and DO SOMETHING. Write your elected officials, get involved with local/state/national issues and either work for change or shut the hell up. Just because you voted doesn't give you the right to make obnoxious childish statements. Being a sore loser won't change anything. In fact you're making it more diffidult for the rest of us.

Oh, and if you're headed to Canada or elsewhere, then do it. For those of us that are working hard for what we believe in you're dead weight and bringing us down. See ya!

ETA: If your candidate won don't be smug and rude to other people. That is just as disgusting and sad as people complaining on the other side. We're adults since we have to be 18 to vote. Let's keep it classy and work together because frankly we have to for the next four years.

[ASUADPi]

Okay, why is it that people who are posting that they didn't want Bush to win are getting totally dissed and we are being told to "stop complaining, whining and moaning"?

First off, it hasn't even been 24 hours, I feel as someone who didn't vote for his butt four years ago and didn't vote for him this year has a right to be slightly perturbed by the turn of events.

Plus, if Kerry had won y'all would be complaining about him winning, so why is it that we can't complain and express our opinions?

I'm sorry that our opinions aren't the same, but you are all about saying we need to respect each other but you can't respect that we DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM!!

I didn't put him in office. My state did.

To cash78mere: I feel ya. I think these next four years are going to be incredibly long and depressing (now this is my personal opinion and I get that others aren't going to agree with it, but you should at least respect that it's my opinion). Heck, we'll probably be in a war the entire time. (Yes, I do have a problem with the war considering my brother is being sent overseas to fight in a war that he doesn't support and that he might LOSE HIS LIFE OVER).


Now, if I'm misreading your comments, I'm sorry. This is just how I have perceived them. If I have read them wrong, I'm willing to "listen".

[aurora_borealis]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
Now, if I'm misreading your comments, I'm sorry. This is just how I have perceived them. If I have read them wrong, I'm willing to "listen".

You totally misread them. I'll send you a PM why.

[hottytoddy]

We respect your opinion. That's why we have an election...so you have a voice. All I am saying is now that it's over we all need to support OUR president. I know you didn't vote for him and didn't like him. You still don't have to like him. But now we need to be Americans behind our president before we are Democrats or Rubublicans. If Kerry had won, I may not have liked it..but I would stand behind the decision of the people and support our leader.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
More Americans voted against George Bush than any sitting president in history. :p

And the most voted for him. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20041103/ap_on_el_pr/eln_election_rdp)

If it works for you, fine. Just remember that there are a lot more people, and a lot more registered voters than ever before, too.




ASUADPi, I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't be whining if Kerry had won. While I would have been most unhappy, there are some things you learn to keep to yourself.

[Rudey]

There is a difference between being upset and being obnoxious to the other side.

There is even a difference between whining and being obnoxious to the other side.

And while you keep saying you didn't vote for him, that's fine but not only did your state vote for him but also 3 million more people in America voted for him over Kerry. This, while you may not like it, is how the presidency turned out. I still encourage people to be active citizens so issues they care about will be adopted by their political representatives and hopefully you will feel represented.

-Rudey

Originally posted by ASUADPi
Okay, why is it that people who are posting that they didn't want Bush to win are getting totally dissed and we are being told to "stop complaining, whining and moaning"?

First off, it hasn't even been 24 hours, I feel as someone who didn't vote for his butt four years ago and didn't vote for him this year has a right to be slightly perturbed by the turn of events.

Plus, if Kerry had won y'all would be complaining about him winning, so why is it that we can't complain and express our opinions?

I'm sorry that our opinions aren't the same, but you are all about saying we need to respect each other but you can't respect that we DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM!!

I didn't put him in office. My state did.

To cash78mere: I feel ya. I think these next four years are going to be incredibly long and depressing (now this is my personal opinion and I get that others aren't going to agree with it, but you should at least respect that it's my opinion). Heck, we'll probably be in a war the entire time. (Yes, I do have a problem with the war considering my brother is being sent overseas to fight in a war that he doesn't support and that he might LOSE HIS LIFE OVER).


Now, if I'm misreading your comments, I'm sorry. This is just how I have perceived them. If I have read them wrong, I'm willing to "listen".

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by Rudey
He already did help us in blocking 4 years of Kerry and making sure those Democrats couldn't muster enough votes.

Do people realize that when they make these obnoxious comments that it doesn't sit well with people and people respond?

-Rudey

do you realize when you make obnoxious comments to people about their opinions that it doesn't sit well with people and people respond?

everyone has a right to like/dislike something. get over it. i don't like bush and don't think the next 4 years will be good. you think they will. good for you.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by cash78mere
do you realize when you make obnoxious comments to people about their opinions that it doesn't sit well with people and people respond?

everyone has a right to like/dislike something. get over it. i don't like bush and don't think the next 4 years will be good. you think they will. good for you.

You didn't just say you don't like Bush. You made an obnoxious comment and I responded.

You get over it lady. You have the biggest attitude problem ever and if you don't like what I write, put me on ignore. If you post lies, if you post something nasty, I will be right there to offer my own words.

-Rudey

[KillarneyRose]

Michael Moore has been strangely silent, hasn't he? :D He is the only Kerry supporter I would really enjoy saying "nah nah nah" to. Well, him and that record producer guy with the terrible overbite who used to date JLo. He annoyed me with his dumb "vote or die" logo.

[KSig RC]

Personally, i feel cashmere's post was insipid at best, but it's her right to be upset - but it will also be my right to tell her she's being insipid. This is the best game ever, huh.


Originally posted by ASUADPi
To cash78mere: I feel ya. I think these next four years are going to be incredibly long and depressing (now this is my personal opinion and I get that others aren't going to agree with it, but you should at least respect that it's my opinion). Heck, we'll probably be in a war the entire time. (Yes, I do have a problem with the war considering my brother is being sent overseas to fight in a war that he doesn't support and that he might LOSE HIS LIFE OVER).



I understand your outrage, and I have mad respect for your brother, but wasn't this more of a mutually exclusive decision than purely Bush's fault? I mean no disrespect, but I think you're directing emotion here that is really only going to drive us toward worse and worse discussion, as far as the site goes.

[ASUADPi]

As for my brother and this war. Maybe some people are in denial about the deal with it, but this war was started all because Bush claimed there were "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. Yet, they have found nothing to prove that there were weapons of any kind. And let's face it, they would have found something, even residual (spelling) chemicals of some kind. In my personal opinion (which of course y'all are welcome to disagree with) Bush started this war as a personal vendetta against Saddam. Need we not forget that Bush senior and Saddam had a tumptulous (sp) history. In fact if I remember my history correctly, Saddam threatened to kill Bush senior. So in my eyes over a 1000 US soldiers have lost their lives for no reason. This war wasn't about Terrorism, it was about personal vengeance. And as for the Terrorism aspect there has been no proof found that Al Quida or Bin Laden were directly "related" to Saddam or Iraq in any way.

So yes I do take in personally. Bush isn't going to pull our troops out of Iraq anytime soon. My brother will be on an 18 month deployment once he leaves for overseas (which is in December). So in my mind I don't expect this "war" to be over before 2007 and I find that completely and utterly pathetic. How many more soldiers need to die before we realize that we need to get out? I don't see this war ending until Bush is out of office. And god knows I hope and I pray that I am wrong on that latter opinion.

I hope and I pray that I am wrong on a lot of things I have seen and don't like about Bush. Because whether I like it or not this man is the president for the next four years. I just hope that things get better than get worse.



Politics are ugly. People have extremely strong opinions about certain matters. We all just need to learn to respect one anothers opinions. Some of my closest friends are Bush supporters and that is fine. I respect their opinions and they respect mine.

I think that people sometimes tend to forget that because we are online and not "directly" in front of the person we are talking to that respect sometimes flies out the window. Again, this is just my opinion.

[Rudey]

Kerry voted for the war in Iraq. Edwards voted for the war in Iraq.

When asked if knowing there were no WMD in Iraq would he still have voted to go to war in Iraq, Kerry said yes.

Never did Kerry say he was just going to pull the soldiers out of Iraq.

One man does not control everything.

-Rudey

Originally posted by ASUADPi
As for my brother and this war. Maybe some people are in denial about the deal with it, but this war was started all because Bush claimed there were "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. Yet, they have found nothing to prove that there were weapons of any kind. And let's face it, they would have found something, even residual (spelling) chemicals of some kind. In my personal opinion (which of course y'all are welcome to disagree with) Bush started this war as a personal vendetta against Saddam. Need we not forget that Bush senior and Saddam had a tumptulous (sp) history. In fact if I remember my history correctly, Saddam threatened to kill Bush senior. So in my eyes over a 1000 US soldiers have lost their lives for no reason. This war wasn't about Terrorism, it was about personal vengeance. And as for the Terrorism aspect there has been no proof found that Al Quida or Bin Laden were directly "related" to Saddam or Iraq in any way.

So yes I do take in personally. Bush isn't going to pull our troops out of Iraq anytime soon. My brother will be on an 18 month deployment once he leaves for overseas (which is in December). So in my mind I don't expect this "war" to be over before 2007 and I find that completely and utterly pathetic. How many more soldiers need to die before we realize that we need to get out? I don't see this war ending until Bush is out of office. And god knows I hope and I pray that I am wrong on that latter opinion.

I hope and I pray that I am wrong on a lot of things I have seen and don't like about Bush. Because whether I like it or not this man is the president for the next four years. I just hope that things get better than get worse.



Politics are ugly. People have extremely strong opinions about certain matters. We all just need to learn to respect one anothers opinions. Some of my closest friends are Bush supporters and that is fine. I respect their opinions and they respect mine.

I think that people sometimes tend to forget that because we are online and not "directly" in front of the person we are talking to that respect sometimes flies out the window. Again, this is just my opinion.

[phigamucsb]

ASUADPi you need to step away from the Kool Aid.

[AGDee]

Originally posted by hottytoddy
I'll say this. When it comes to politics: I am an American FIRST, republican second. I am obviously pleased about the outcome of the election. But if Kerry had won, I would still be American and I would support OUR President. I may not have liked it if Kerry had won, but that why we have an election...so everyone has a voice...and no one voice is better than the next. So can we please quit with the rude comments about our President and the "red states" and all? It's over... for now. You will have another chance to speak your voice in four years. But for now try to support our leader.

Can you explain to me exactly what you mean by "support our leader"? I'm not sure what types of actions you refer to when you say that. I do have respect for the office as it represents the most powerful man in the world, but I'm not going to blindly agree with things that Bush says or does simply because he is President. So, I'm curious what you mean by "support".

Thanks

Dee

[honeychile]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
As for my brother and this war. Maybe some people are in denial about the deal with it, but this war was started all because Bush claimed there were "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. Yet, they have found nothing to prove that there were weapons of any kind. And let's face it, they would have found something, even residual (spelling) chemicals of some kind. In my personal opinion (which of course y'all are welcome to disagree with) Bush started this war as a personal vendetta against Saddam. Need we not forget that Bush senior and Saddam had a tumptulous (sp) history. In fact if I remember my history correctly, Saddam threatened to kill Bush senior. So in my eyes over a 1000 US soldiers have lost their lives for no reason. This war wasn't about Terrorism, it was about personal vengeance. And as for the Terrorism aspect there has been no proof found that Al Quida or Bin Laden were directly "related" to Saddam or Iraq in any way.

So yes I do take in personally. Bush isn't going to pull our troops out of Iraq anytime soon. My brother will be on an 18 month deployment once he leaves for overseas (which is in December). So in my mind I don't expect this "war" to be over before 2007 and I find that completely and utterly pathetic. How many more soldiers need to die before we realize that we need to get out? I don't see this war ending until Bush is out of office. And god knows I hope and I pray that I am wrong on that latter opinion.

I hope and I pray that I am wrong on a lot of things I have seen and don't like about Bush. Because whether I like it or not this man is the president for the next four years. I just hope that things get better than get worse.



Politics are ugly. People have extremely strong opinions about certain matters. We all just need to learn to respect one anothers opinions. Some of my closest friends are Bush supporters and that is fine. I respect their opinions and they respect mine.

I think that people sometimes tend to forget that because we are online and not "directly" in front of the person we are talking to that respect sometimes flies out the window. Again, this is just my opinion.

I completely understand from whence you speak, although you probably don't believe me.

Politics ARE ugly! One has to develop a tough skin and completely lose one's ego to be successful at it. I tried, and I'll be the first to say that I just don't have what it takes. I'm also not sure that I completely respect those who can - most especially the operatives, not the candidates.

My sister, ASUADPi, is quite passionate with her views, but tries to be fair. I respect her opinion, and can't help but wonder if I would feel the same, if I were in her shoes.

[omegamcgee]

Yep Bush wins again. Although I'm not quite sure how he pulled that off (I've heard rumors about the republicans putting up signs in hispanic areas that said election day was november 3rd, but that's just what I've heard), he did. I don't support him, and I'll move to Canada if there is a draft, but it's over and done with. Now all we can do is handle the repurcussions of this conservative, evangelical, bigot and his administration. Good luck to everyone, and here's to four more years...of HORROR!

[Rollergirl2001]

Originally posted by omegamcgee
Yep Bush wins again. Although I'm not quite sure how he pulled that off (I've heard rumors about the republicans putting up signs in hispanic areas that said election day was november 3rd, but that's just what I've heard), he did. I don't support him, and I'll move to Canada if there is a draft, but it's over and done with. Now all we can do is handle the repurcussions of this conservative, evangelical, bigot and his administration. Good luck to everyone, and here's to four more years...of HORROR!

I think that you better watch what you say about moving to Canada if there is a draft on this forum. I was bashed for saying that.

Oh, I apologize for saying that I would move to Canada if there was a draft. I was being insensitive. I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Anyway, to cash78mere and ASUADPi, I feel you too. I was saying God help us after Bush won. I'll be fine for the next four years. I'll just survive it just like other anti-Bush people.

[hottytoddy]

Originally posted by AGDee
Can you explain to me exactly what you mean by "support our leader"? I'm not sure what types of actions you refer to when you say that. I do have respect for the office as it represents the most powerful man in the world, but I'm not going to blindly agree with things that Bush says or does simply because he is President. So, I'm curious what you mean by "support".

Thanks

Dee

I am talking about the people who are on here bashing the President. I mean one man can't lead the country forward by himself. He needs the help and support of all Americans. Are you going to agree with one candidate about every issue? No. But that's life. Everything doesn't always go the way we want it to. I don't agree with him about every single issue. But you find the candidate that BEST represents your views, and that's your vote. What I'm saying is the election is over so I wish everyone would quit being immature and quit bashing President Bush. Americans have to come together and not be so divided if we want to move forward. Otherwise were going to waste all of our time arguing with each other.

[preciousjeni]

Fair Tax has a chance! Yay! I voted Badnarik :)

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by hottytoddy
I am talking about the people who are on here bashing the President. I mean one man can't lead the country forward by himself. He needs the help and support of all Americans. Are you going to agree with one candidate about every issue? No. But that's life. Everything doesn't always go the way we want it to. I don't agree with him about every single issue. But you find the candidate that BEST represents your views, and that's your vote. What I'm saying is the election is over so I wish everyone would quit being immature and quit bashing President Bush. Americans have to come together and not be so divided if we want to move forward. Otherwise were going to waste all of our time arguing with each other.

I am not bashing Bush -- but I feel no need to "help him out" either. If he wants the country to come together, he has to earn it. So far he has done little but drive it apart, and I'm apprehensive that this will only get worse in the next four years now that he has much less to lose.

Bush's version of "forward" is very different from mine, and honestly I would rather spend the next four years squabbling and getting nothing done than to move "forward" in his direction. If he wants me, and the millions of other Democrats who are likeminded, to move forward, he is going to have to do something to earn the country's unity.

[mmcat]

bush...sigh...

[kddani]

Though who didn't vote for him don't have to support them. By virtue of being citizens in this great country, we also have every right to criticize his decisions, actions, plans, etc. This would be the same had Kerry won- those who voted for Bush would have every right to criticize him.

That's what this country was founded on- everyone should remember that from elementary school history.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by Rollergirl2001
I think that you better watch what you say about moving to Canada if there is a draft on this forum. I was bashed for saying that.

Oh, I apologize for saying that I would move to Canada if there was a draft. I was being insensitive. I'm sorry. Please forgive me.



You don't have anything to apologize for! If you're receiving any flack for saying such a thing it isn't necessarily because of you per se, but because of other people who have made similar statements but didn't back them up when the time came.

One who springs quickly to mind is actor Alec Baldwin who insisted he would move out of the US if the Republicans took the White House in 2000. He is still here. In all the years I've been eligible to vote, I've heard similar claims from people and every single one of them is also still here! Seems that when push came to shove, the comfort and benefits to be reaped by staying in the US overwhelmed their desire to make a bold statement.

So if you're getting any grief for your comment, I think it's just because people are reading it as empty, rhetorical grandstanding. Just ignore them; you and you alone can attest to the veracity of your statement.

[texas*princess]

Stop mad cowboy disease :(

[Virtuous Woman]

:( :( :( :( :( <---------------------------My take on the election. I did my part, Bush never had a chance in New York.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by omegamcgee
Yep Bush wins again. Although I'm not quite sure how he pulled that off (I've heard rumors about the republicans putting up signs in hispanic areas that said election day was november 3rd, but that's just what I've heard), he did. I don't support him, and I'll move to Canada if there is a draft, but it's over and done with. Now all we can do is handle the repurcussions of this conservative, evangelical, bigot and his administration. Good luck to everyone, and here's to four more years...of HORROR!


In most of the nation, the Hispanic demographics strongly lean republican, so let's lay off the urban myths.

[FAB*SpiceySpice]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Michael Moore has been strangely silent, hasn't he? :D He is the only Kerry supporter I would really enjoy saying "nah nah nah" to. Well, him and that record producer guy with the terrible overbite who used to date JLo. He annoyed me with his dumb "vote or die" logo.

LOL are you talking about P Diddy?

I agree, that vote or die crap was pretty STUPID. :rolleyes:

[ISUKappa]

In order for this country to come together, there are going to have to be concessions on both sides. If you say Bush has to earn your respect, you also have to be willing to actively listen to what he has to say, even if you don't agree with it.

ETA: That doesn't mean you need to alter your beliefs, that doesn't mean you have to stop fighting for what you're passionate about--you should never stop doing that. But an attitude of "my way or no way" isn't going to help anybody.

[ADPiZXalum]

I thought this was neat

http://www.hannity.com/img/election_map04.jpg

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Rollergirl2001
I think that you better watch what you say about moving to Canada if there is a draft on this forum. I was bashed for saying that.

Oh, I apologize for saying that I would move to Canada if there was a draft. I was being insensitive. I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Anyway, to cash78mere and ASUADPi, I feel you too. I was saying God help us after Bush won. I'll be fine for the next four years. I'll just survive it just like other anti-Bush people.

Since you brought up the draft, let's remember it was a Democrat from New York that introduced it this year, it was 2 Democrats that voted for it, and every Republican voted against it.

-Rudey

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by Rudey
Since you brought up the draft, let's remember it was a Democrat from New York that introduced it this year, it was 2 Democrats that voted for it, and every Republican voted against it.

-Rudey
With the members of the armed forces (from every account I've heard) saying that they would've considered resigning had Kerry been elected, but they support Bush, I don't quite understand the concern.:confused:

[honeychile]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Michael Moore has been strangely silent, hasn't he? :D He is the only Kerry supporter I would really enjoy saying "nah nah nah" to. Well, him and that record producer guy with the terrible overbite who used to date JLo. He annoyed me with his dumb "vote or die" logo.

Cosign!!!


So.... are Alec Baldwin and Barbra Streistand still around?

[honeychile]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
I thought this was neat

http://www.hannity.com/img/election_map04.jpg

Even more interesting, compare it to that of 2000!

(Which of course I have on paper but not online! Drat!)

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by ISUKappa
In order for this country to come together, there are going to have to be concessions on both sides. If you say Bush has to earn your respect, you also have to be willing to actively listen to what he has to say, even if you don't agree with it.

ETA: That doesn't mean you need to alter your beliefs, that doesn't mean you have to stop fighting for what you're passionate about--you should never stop doing that. But an attitude of "my way or no way" isn't going to help anybody.

Right.

But we heard this stuff about "Okay, we'll work on uniting the nation" after the 2000 election too. How long did that last? According to Dick Cheney, "We wait about thirty seconds before we decided not to change our plan for the country because of the way the election turned out." The only time this country has been particularly united over the past four years was just post 9/11, and if we have to count on a terrorist attack to bring us together again -- well, clearly that's not what any of us are hoping for. Obviously this election was not as drama-full as the last, but I think the left is even more hesitant to trust Bush this time around since he has much more power to do what he wants now that he's not up for reelection. I honestly don't think he's going to make much of an effort to pander to anybody on the opposite side of the spectrum.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
According to Dick Cheney, "We wait about thirty seconds before we decided not to change our plan for the country because of the way the election turned out."


interesting - cite?


Originally posted by sugar and spice
The only time this country has been particularly united over the past four years was just post 9/11, and if we have to count on a terrorist attack to bring us together again -- well, clearly that's not what any of us are hoping for. Obviously this election was not as drama-full as the last, but I think the left is even more hesitant to trust Bush this time around since he has much more power to do what he wants now that he's not up for reelection. I honestly don't think he's going to make much of an effort to pander to anybody on the opposite side of the spectrum.


OK - interesting speculation, but it's just that. Time will tell.

[PhiPsiRuss]

The concern? Its probably that they remember Clinton.Originally posted by preciousjeni
With the members of the armed forces (from every account I've heard) saying that they would've considered resigning had Kerry been elected, but they support Bush, I don't quite understand the concern.:confused:

[Nubian]

Originally posted by Rudey
Kerry voted for the war in Iraq. Edwards voted for the war in Iraq.

When asked if knowing there were no WMD in Iraq would he still have voted to go to war in Iraq, Kerry said yes.

Never did Kerry say he was just going to pull the soldiers out of Iraq.

One man does not control everything.

-Rudey

While Kerry and Edwards may have voted in favor of the war...Bush started the war. A baseless war where my colleagues are fighting and dying everyday. Yet when we (the military) had the chance to go to Haiti and provide some real aid to people who needed it, we didn't go...maybe they didn't have enough oil for our President. Maybe it wasn't in accordance with his Daddy's agenda...Either way, I do agree that we all have an opinion and mine is that any man who would sacfrice loss of life, wreck the economy, and place such fear of terrorism in the average American that he skates through another election does not deserve to run a country. 3 yrs after 9/11, we still have not located Osama, the person mainly responsible, but people are saying this man (Bush) has kept us safe!?! How?! If you had been raped or assaulted and the police still hadn't caught the culprit 3 yrs later, would you applaude them for keeping you safe? I respect your opinion and that of all Republicans, but I reserve my right to dislike Bush regardless of the fact that he is our President...I don't do blind loyalty.
Asking me to like Bush is like asking you to like.... Clinton. :)

[Nubian]

Originally posted by preciousjeni
With the members of the armed forces (from every account I've heard) saying that they would've considered resigning had Kerry been elected, but they support Bush, I don't quite understand the concern.:confused:

Seeing as how you can't just resign from the military, I don't see how thats possible. Secondly, I can only speak for my command, but the higher ranking officials (with the exception of myself) tend to be Republican, while enlisted personnel and younger servicemen lean further to the left. I think when people say the military backs Bush and did not vote for Kerry, that statement is a little skewed, I know many, many young service men and women who voted for Kerry. Again just my .02 cents.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by Nubian
Secondly, I can only speak for my command, but the higher ranking officials (with the exception of myself) tend to be Republican, while enlisted personnel and younger servicemen lean further to the left. I think when people say the military backs Bush and did not vote for Kerry, that statement is a little skewed, I know many, many young service men and women who voted for Kerry. Again just my .02 cents.

I've heard the same thing from quite a few people in the military.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by Nubian
Seeing as how you can't just resign from the military, I don't see how thats possible. Secondly, I can only speak for my command, but the higher ranking officials (with the exception of myself) tend to be Republican, while enlisted personnel and younger servicemen lean further to the left. I think when people say the military backs Bush and did not vote for Kerry, that statement is a little skewed, I know many, many young service men and women who voted for Kerry. Again just my .02 cents.
Of course you can resign once you've served your initial years.

[Shortfuse]

Originally posted by FAB*SpiceySpice
LOL are you talking about P Diddy?

I agree, that vote or die crap was pretty STUPID. :rolleyes:

I don't think attempting to get the younger population to be more involved in the voting process is stupid. You should be patting him on the back for his efforts.

Some people:rolleyes:

[Rudey]

You know the funny part? I didn't hate Clinton. I didn't despise Clinton. On a few things I even liked him. I would have voted for Daschle. I would vote for quite a few Democrats.

Now they voted for it but didn't start it? I don't understand what that means.

As for Haiti, we don't have a never-ending supply of military. What should we do? What did we do? What did other countries do?

As for your "colleagues are fighting and dying everyday"...well that is war and whether it was Iraq, Haiti, or France, they'd be fighting and dying every day in a war.

I didn't ask you to love Bush. I didn't ask for blind loyalty. I don't think anyone does. But what I do find ridiculous is people thinking that Kerry is a saint. He voted for the war. The war is no longer something that separates them. He said he would go to war even without WMD. His wife is a billionaire, declared 5 million in income (impossible), and only paid 12% taxes on that for about 600K - this while her husband is busy talking about taxing the wealthy.

They are one in the same on many things. They are corrupt. Each tried to spend as much money as possible to buy America and only one succeeded.

-Rudey

Originally posted by Nubian
While Kerry and Edwards may have voted in favor of the war...Bush started the war. A baseless war where my colleagues are fighting and dying everyday. Yet when we (the military) had the chance to go to Haiti and provide some real aid to people who needed it, we didn't go...maybe they didn't have enough oil for our President. Maybe it wasn't in accordance with his Daddy's agenda...Either way, I do agree that we all have an opinion and mine is that any man who would sacfrice loss of life, wreck the economy, and place such fear of terrorism in the average American that he skates through another election does not deserve to run a country. 3 yrs after 9/11, we still have not located Osama, the person mainly responsible, but people are saying this man (Bush) has kept us safe!?! How?! If you had been raped or assaulted and the police still hadn't caught the culprit 3 yrs later, would you applaude them for keeping you safe? I respect your opinion and that of all Republicans, but I reserve my right to dislike Bush regardless of the fact that he is our President...I don't do blind loyalty.
Asking me to like Bush is like asking you to like.... Clinton. :)

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Nubian
Seeing as how you can't just resign from the military, I don't see how thats possible. Secondly, I can only speak for my command, but the higher ranking officials (with the exception of myself) tend to be Republican, while enlisted personnel and younger servicemen lean further to the left. I think when people say the military backs Bush and did not vote for Kerry, that statement is a little skewed, I know many, many young service men and women who voted for Kerry. Again just my .02 cents.

The latest numbers in the news were that military personnel were voting 2:1 for Bush in Iraq. Are they all higher ranking personnel?

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Shortfuse
I don't think attempting to get the younger population to be more involved in the voting process is stupid. You should be patting him on the back for his efforts.

Some people:rolleyes:

You really think he was doing it to get people to vote?

-Rudey

[ASUADPi]

Since this thread is about Bush winning I would love to hear Bush supporters thoughts on something I read yesterday.

On MSNBC I read that Bush is going to be "attempting" to get those Kerry supporters back on "his side".

I would actually like to hear y'all's takes on that.

I personally have a list of about 10 items that he would have to "do" before I even think about supporting him. But see I don't think he will do any of these things. (FYI all the things on my list are very public things, ending the war for example is number one on my list).

If you are a Bush supporter I would really like to hear how you think he could actually acheive this statement.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
Since this thread is about Bush winning I would love to hear Bush supporters thoughts on something I read yesterday.

On MSNBC I read that Bush is going to be "attempting" to get those Kerry supporters back on "his side".

I would actually like to hear y'all's takes on that.

I personally have a list of about 10 items that he would have to "do" before I even think about supporting him. But see I don't think he will do any of these things. (FYI all the things on my list are very public things, ending the war for example is number one on my list).

If you are a Bush supporter I would really like to hear how you think he could actually acheive this statement.


He's not going to be abl to realistically 'win' all these people - but there are Republicans and moderates who left the fold. Some preliminary steps:

-Ending the war would be suicidal - can you imagine what would happen in Iraq if we left? I dig that you're personally involved, but unless we want to turn Baghdad into Escape from New York, we'll need to continue (and get better). The geopolitical assumptions for starting the war were solid, but he'll need to overcome the massive public response to his ill-fated decision to push the WMD angle b/c it was widely accepted.

Bush will 100% need to show improvement, and an actual strategy (including an eventual exit strategy) to get people on his side.

-Showing his economic plan is correct - we know the Republican plans are more sound in general, but can he realign w/ the massive wartime budget? Can he still get social security etc on track, and push his reform plans through? etc etc

-Being careful with 'faith-based' initiatives - these smacked wholeheartedly of pandering to the party, and I'd doubt anything comes out of them. However, getting overzealous could lead to severe backlash, especially with the midpont elections looming.

-Finally, he needs to be as accessible all the time as he tried to be during the campaign. He will never be a top-flight public speaker, but his improvements need to carry through so that his actions can carry some weight, and not just look like (*insert derogatory comment here*) to Kerry supporters.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
Since this thread is about Bush winning I would love to hear Bush supporters thoughts on something I read yesterday.

On MSNBC I read that Bush is going to be "attempting" to get those Kerry supporters back on "his side".

I would actually like to hear y'all's takes on that.

I personally have a list of about 10 items that he would have to "do" before I even think about supporting him. But see I don't think he will do any of these things. (FYI all the things on my list are very public things, ending the war for example is number one on my list).

If you are a Bush supporter I would really like to hear how you think he could actually acheive this statement.

Ummm neither Bush nor Kerry were just going to "end the war".

As for how he's going to get people to come together? I am not completely sure.

-Rudey

[FAB*SpiceySpice]

Originally posted by Rudey
You really think he was doing it to get people to vote?

-Rudey

Thank you Rudith.

SO SORRY for not being nit picky and 150% clear in my original post. What I meant was the VOTE OR DIE slogan was stupid. P. Diddy used that as a publicity stunt and everyone knows it. Nothing wrong with that but I wouldn't attribute every young person voting b/c they saw P. Diddy raid the house on the Real World wearing that stupid shirt.

Why am I even arguing about this, with a person I don't even know or care about?!

I need a nap. :(

[Nubian]

Originally posted by Rudey
The latest numbers in the news were that military personnel were voting 2:1 for Bush in Iraq. Are they all higher ranking personnel?

-Rudey

No, they are personnel who were willing to share their political affiliation with poll-takers. Just for clarification, I know the military as a whole leans right...I'm not disagreeing with you there, I'm saying that the military is percieved as very heavily Republican, and from what I've seen from my sailors, thats not the case. You'd be surprised how many are Democrats. Military personnel come from all different social and racial groups, the fact that we are in the military is not the sole factor in political affilitation. I think factual numbers would prove that the military is almost as split as the actual election itself.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Nubian
No, they are personnel who were willing to share their political affiliation with poll-takers. Just for clarification, I know the military as a whole leans right...I'm not disagreeing with you there, I'm saying that the military is percieved as very heavily Republican, and from what I've seen from my sailors, thats not the case. You'd be surprised how many are Democrats. Military personnel come from all different social and racial groups, the fact that we are in the military is not the sole factor in political affilitation. I think factual numbers would prove that the military is almost as split as the actual election itself.

OK I don't disagree that the military is diverse, but it still does lean right, mostly because it gets its supply of recruits from certain areas and those men and women either come in with certain beliefs or pick them up while serving.

I don't think it's just so easy as you make it when you guess on how many men and women would vote a certain way. Given my demographic, I should not be voting Republican but I am registered as one.

-Rudey

[ISUKappa]

I agree with Rob. Bush isn't going to be able to "win" over a majority of the Democratic party because the differences in ideology are just too great. But I think he can get some back on his side, or at least show the party that he is making an effort to understand them and work towards a common goal.

Now, honestly, I don't believe anything is going to happen on the national level with a Gay Marriage amendment ban. Likewise with Roe v Wade. I think they were more election strategy than anything and he currently has bigger things to worry about. But that's just my opinion, so take it as you will.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ISUKappa
I agree with Rob. Bush isn't going to be able to "win" over a majority of the Democratic party because the differences in ideology are just too great. But I think he can get some back on his side, or at least show the party that he is making an effort to understand them and work towards a common goal.

Now, honestly, I don't believe anything is going to happen on the national level with a Gay Marriage amendment ban. Likewise with Roe v Wade. I think they were more election strategy than anything and he currently has bigger things to worry about. But that's just my opinion, so take it as you will.

It's funny. Clinton told Kerry to say that he opposes gay-marriages and wants a constitutional ban so he could win over the South and places like Ohio. Kerry made the wrong move.

-Rudey

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by Rudey
You didn't just say you don't like Bush. You made an obnoxious comment and I responded.

You get over it lady. You have the biggest attitude problem ever and if you don't like what I write, put me on ignore. If you post lies, if you post something nasty, I will be right there to offer my own words.

-Rudey

i'm proud of my attitude thanks:D

i don't put anyone on ignore. and i also don't lie. we obviously believe in different truths.

and i can't believe you'd tell anyone else THEY had an attitude:rolleyes:

[cash78mere]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KSig RC
Personally, i feel cashmere's post was insipid at best, but it's her right to be upset - but it will also be my right to tell her she's being insipid. This is the best game ever, huh.

i don't mind if you find it insipid. i find 85% of the posts on GC insipid. you've got a right to your opinion!

[Rudey]

Originally posted by cash78mere
i'm proud of my attitude thanks:D

i don't put anyone on ignore. and i also don't lie. we obviously believe in different truths.

and i can't believe you'd tell anyone else THEY had an attitude:rolleyes:

Big words for someone who thinks all of long island is nice and doesn't back her own words because she doesn't have to.

-Rudey
--Oh snap, let's keep going with this!

[AlphaGamDiva]

alright look......dems out there in GC land.....y'all have been going on for MONTHS about how kerry was gonna win.....what's the big deal with us repubs having ONE DAY where we can rejoice in our victory???? we haven't been able to say one word (before or since) that hasn't been attacked with some kerry biznass.....so, for the next 24 hrs, can ya cut us a break?

[The1calledTKE]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
alright look......dems out there in GC land.....y'all have been going on for MONTHS about how kerry was gonna win.....what's the big deal with us repubs having ONE DAY where we can rejoice in our victory???? we haven't been able to say one word (before or since) that hasn't been attacked with some kerry biznass.....so, for the next 24 hrs, can ya cut us a break?

Mon you know full well if Bush lost a lot would be complaining about Kerry too. I bet georgewbush.com has a message board with only pro bush stuff. ;)

[wreckingcrew]

L

M

F

A

O

Well, for the THIRD time tonight, I'm glad Bush won, or you liberals would have had nothing to bitch about for the next 4 years.



















Bababooy, bababooy, Howard Stern's penis, bababooy!

KS 361

[honeychile]

Originally posted by The1calledTKE
Mon you know full well if Bush lost a lot would be complaining about Kerry too. I bet georgewbush.com has a message board with only pro bush stuff. ;)

I have been going out of my way not to be obnoxious about this election, but telling someone to go to www.georgewbush.com to talk about the election, and NOT telling the Kerry people to go to a similar site is out of line.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by The1calledTKE
Mon you know full well if Bush lost a lot would be complaining about Kerry too. I bet georgewbush.com has a message board with only pro bush stuff. ;)


tke, you know i loves ya, but seriously. you know as well as i do the majority on this board = bush haters. and those of us who voted and like bush are always made fun of in some way, told we are all wrong and close minded and blah blah blah......we were told for forever that kerry was gonna win, bush is gonna lose, we might as well stfu b/c our voice doesn't matter.....well this election proved that our voices do in fact matter. and i just find it ridiculous that we can't even have one day to come together and be happy without someone being all "i'm leaving the country" "i'll hibernate for the next 4 years" "i'll be as anti-America or anti-bush as i wanna be b/c this is BS and i didn't vote for him this is NOT the way of the cougar so let me cry about it." ugh.

give me a break.

but i loves ya. ;)

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

hell- I agree with AlphaGam- let them have a victory catharsis before we all realize America needs to come together to move forward.
It's only fair.

[The1calledTKE]

Originally posted by honeychile
I have been going out of my way not to be obnoxious about this election, but telling someone to go to www.georgewbush.com to talk about the election, and NOT telling the Kerry people to go to a similar site is out of line.

Where did I tell Mon to do anything thing? I mentioned a site that might have no Bush bashing. This board is divided like the country is politically so the chance of no Bush bashing is unrealistic is all I am saying.

[wreckingcrew]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
alright look......dems out there in GC land.....y'all have been going on for MONTHS about how kerry was gonna win.....what's the big deal with us repubs having ONE DAY where we can rejoice in our victory???? we haven't been able to say one word (before or since) that hasn't been attacked with some kerry biznass.....so, for the next 24 hrs, can ya cut us a break?

Yeah, ONE DAY.

But we have to eat SHEETCAKE right? and sit in RECLINA LOUNGERS? and drink G&T'S?

KS 361

[The1calledTKE]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
tke, you know i loves ya, but seriously. you know as well as i do the majority on this board = bush haters. and those of us who voted and like bush are always made fun of in some way, told we are all wrong and close minded and blah blah blah......we were told for forever that kerry was gonna win, bush is gonna lose, we might as well stfu b/c our voice doesn't matter.....well this election proved that our voices do in fact matter. and i just find it ridiculous that we can't even have one day to come together and be happy without someone being all "i'm leaving the country" "i'll hibernate for the next 4 years" "i'll be as anti-America or anti-bush as i wanna be b/c this is BS and i didn't vote for him this is NOT the way of the cougar so let me cry about it." ugh.

give me a break.

but i loves ya. ;)

I know Mon loves ya back. Bush supporters can be happy. Just because Bush won everyone has to come together and be happy for him? Nah. You always have been a respectful republican on here and I am happy at least you are happy. :)

[Tom Earp]

ZEKE, shame on you for not giving equal time for the Scarry Kerry Fans.:(

But, the thing is,G W is Head Cheese for 4 more.

Now is the time for him to get off his Texass Butt and do something about The Economy and Our Citizens of The Good Ole U S of A!

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
Yeah, ONE DAY.

But we have to eat SHEETCAKE right? and sit in RECLINA LOUNGERS? and drink G&T'S?

KS 361

dummy....you can't just sit....you have to sit sit.....sheesh.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by The1calledTKE
I know Mon loves ya back. Bush supporters can be happy. Just because Bush won everyone has to come together and be happy for him? Nah. You always have been a respectful republican on here and I am happy at least you are happy. :)

i try to be a cool repub, but ya know. :D i have to be evil, too, as is a requirement for my party.

[wreckingcrew]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
dummy....you can't just sit....you have to sit sit.....sheesh.

Oh, of COURSE! What was i thinking? Do we have to watch BYU and Bears highlight films featuring the punky QB known as McMahon?

or maybe sign allegience letters to the Socialist, er i mean, Democratic party?


Oh, the hell with this, i'm goin to the bar, later y'all

KS 361

[honeychile]

Originally posted by The1calledTKE
Where did I tell Mon to do anything thing? I mentioned a site that might have no Bush bashing. This board is divided like the country is politically so the chance of no Bush bashing is unrealistic is all I am saying.

I reread your post, and yes, I probably misread your intent. The thread where I said that we need to be in a reconcilatory mode was deleted, so I'll just repeat it now.

[AGDee]

Larry King's show last night was really thought provoking. There were reps from each party and everything was calm and thoughtful. They discussed the fact that this country is more divided than it's ever been, save for during the Civil War, and that it will be a very long process to ever become united. They also discussed how deeply saddened the Kerry supporters were that he is gone and how they are actually grieving, unlike anything in recent history. The general concensus, even among the Republican reps there, was that the Republicans are going to have to move toward the middle if the country is going to be unified.

This board was full of attacks from both sides during the campaign. To say that only bush-haters were attacking is unfair. There were numerous posts about Democrats being liars, vast generalizations made about each party by people form the opposing parties. It was constant, it was insulting and it was cruel on the part of some of the posters.

A 51% to 48% victory isn't a landslide, it's a narrow victory and it shows just how divided this country is. Even in most "blue" or "red" states, those races were close, which means, state by state, people are divided.

We were pretty divided in 2000 also, but, less than a year after the election, 9/11 happened and really unified the country again. Hopefully we can find a way to be unified without a tragedy like that again.

I think we should be concerned that people are so worried about the state of our country that some may feel they have to leave.

Dee

[ASUADPi]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
alright look......dems out there in GC land.....y'all have been going on for MONTHS about how kerry was gonna win.....what's the big deal with us repubs having ONE DAY where we can rejoice in our victory???? we haven't been able to say one word (before or since) that hasn't been attacked with some kerry biznass.....so, for the next 24 hrs, can ya cut us a break?

No offense or anything but it has been over 24 hours.

Plus, I just love how you claim it is okay for all the Bush fans to be completely arrogant about him winning but it's not okay for the Kerry fans to be upset. I find that line of thinking quite hypocritical, impo.


As for the Dems on GC land, I rarely visit this forum so I don't know if the Dems were giving the Rebs a hard time about Bush Vs. Kerry. But you didn't have to respond or read those threads in the first place. If it's true, well then the Dems shouldn't have behaved that way. But can you honestly say that during this heated and contraversial election that the Repbulicans didn't the Dems crap right on back?


Like I said earlier, politics are ugly, they will always be ugly. Mainly because there are SOOOO many issues out there that everyone has a completely different view point on. This is what makes us all individuals.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
No offense or anything but it has been over 24 hours.

Plus, I just love how you claim it is okay for all the Bush fans to be completely arrogant about him winning but it's not okay for the Kerry fans to be upset. I find that line of thinking quite hypocritical, impo.


As for the Dems on GC land, I rarely visit this forum so I don't know if the Dems were giving the Rebs a hard time about Bush Vs. Kerry. But you didn't have to respond or read those threads in the first place. If it's true, well then the Dems shouldn't have behaved that way. But can you honestly say that during this heated and contraversial election that the Repbulicans didn't the Dems crap right on back?


Like I said earlier, politics are ugly, they will always be ugly. Mainly because there are SOOOO many issues out there that everyone has a completely different view point on. This is what makes us all individuals.

yeah, it's been over 24 hours, and we never had 5 minutes. i'm not saying to be "arrogant" either....i'm saying "rejoice" which is to be happy and celebrate something we voted for and won. kerry fans can be upset all they want to, i'd be upset if it was the other way around....but i don't think being upset means showing a picture of an upside down American flag with a gas can stuck to it is necessary, or talking about leaving the country, or omg i can't believe Americans are so stupid. that's going beyond upset and into insulting. i'm not being hypocritical....i'm just asking for things to be fair and polite.

as far as not reading or responding to threads.....ok. come around more and see how easy that is to do. sometimes you think a thread is going to be one thing, or it starts out as one thing, but then leads to something completely different. plenty of repub threads have been disrupted (as have dem threads), so there's no way to avoid that. and as for "crapping" on each other.....dems out-number us. a lot. and they are louder than some of us. some have fought back, some haven't. but read through some of the threads and posts on here and see who you think has done more damage to this particular forum....as far as name-calling, belittle-ing, etc. you may find we have a reason to celebrate...or be "arrogant" as you call it.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
Oh, of COURSE! What was i thinking? Do we have to watch BYU and Bears highlight films featuring the punky QB known as McMahon?

or maybe sign allegience letters to the Socialist, er i mean, Democratic party?


Oh, the hell with this, i'm goin to the bar, later y'all

KS 361

I'm actually a Totalitarian, yo.

And I prefer vodka tonics.

But way to stereotype.

BFB.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by AGDee

I think we should be concerned that people are so worried about the state of our country that some may feel they have to leave.

Dee

I think this is really, really true.

On livejournal, I've read many, many entries over the past few days about how disappointed, frustrated, bitter, and sad people are with our country. They are much more so upset than anybody I knew was after 2000, and a lot of people I knew were very upset after 2000 -- but they considered it a fluke election. Obviously this election has proved that it wasn't a fluke, it is indicative of the way this country is moving. Many of them said that they can no longer consider themselves proud to be an American (either because of the president that was elected, other policies that were voted for, etc.). The pure number of people who have said this is both frightening and unsurprising. And like you said, a 51-48 split is hardly a blowout. The Founding Fathers about those who were in the "minority" having their rights steamrolled by those who were in the majority and they explored many different ways of trying to make sure as many people's interests were met as possible. I think that's something that we've lost sight of in recent years (in both parties), and something that is could get even more lost with the current administration.

Honestly, if people really ARE upset or scared enough with the way this country is heading that they really do want to move (and aren't just throwing a "wah my candidate didn't win" temper tamtrum), that is something to be concerned about -- if you can't say "I'm proud to be an American" because of something that's happening in our country right now, be it the election, something else that was voted on, the dirty campaigns, whatever -- to me, that's serious. You should be able to be proud of being an American regardless of whether or not you agree with the leader or are proud of him. If there is an increasing number of people who can't be proud of America as it is, to me that's worrisome.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I think this is really, really true.

On livejournal, I've read many, many entries over the past few days about how disappointed, frustrated, bitter, and sad people are with our country. They are much more so upset than anybody I knew was after 2000, and a lot of people I knew were very upset after 2000 -- but they considered it a fluke election. Obviously this election has proved that it wasn't a fluke, it is indicative of the way this country is moving. Many of them said that they can no longer consider themselves proud to be an American (either because of the president that was elected, other policies that were voted for, etc.). The pure number of people who have said this is both frightening and unsurprising. And like you said, a 51-48 split is hardly a blowout. The Founding Fathers about those who were in the "minority" having their rights steamrolled by those who were in the majority and they explored many different ways of trying to make sure as many people's interests were met as possible. I think that's something that we've lost sight of in recent years (in both parties), and something that is could get even more lost with the current administration.

Honestly, if people really ARE upset or scared enough with the way this country is heading that they really do want to move (and aren't just throwing a "wah my candidate didn't win" temper tamtrum), that is something to be concerned about -- if you can't say "I'm proud to be an American" because of something that's happening in our country right now, be it the election, something else that was voted on, the dirty campaigns, whatever -- to me, that's serious. You should be able to be proud of being an American regardless of whether or not you agree with the leader or are proud of him. If there is an increasing number of people who can't be proud of America as it is, to me that's worrisome.

it's always gonna be that way....these things go in spurts......there were a lot of ppl i knew who were just as concerned during the clinton administration.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
Yeah, ONE DAY.

But we have to eat SHEETCAKE right? and sit in RECLINA LOUNGERS? and drink G&T'S?

KS 361

PINK DRINKS, Kitso, get it right. G&T's are only for Lil' Hannah and occasionally the rest of us will indulge.

And thanks for derailing this thread for us . . . it saves time in our plot towards world domination, or at least in our plot of turning every pro-Bush thread into a thread about ourselves.

[AGDee]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
it's always gonna be that way....these things go in spurts......there were a lot of ppl i knew who were just as concerned during the clinton administration.

I knew people who truly couldn't stand Clinton, but I didn't hear people (like on NPR today) who felt that the country was pushing them out because there are now state Constitutional amendments that encourage discrimination. There are people who feel that they cannot continue to live in the United States because they don't have the same rights here as other citizens. I think people are becoming personally offended by the way other Americans are treating them or talking about them. I know I get personally offended when I hear Bush talking about important marriage is in our society and how we need to keep families together, since I've been divorced twice. I know a lot of people (mainly women) who are very offended that someone wants to tell them what they can and cannot do with their uterus. I know others who are very worried about the way the Patriot Act has been implemented, and how it takes away our civil rights.

Also, particularly with the gay marriage issue, they aren't feeling alienated by the President per se, but by the general population. The man I heard them interviewing on NPR today was in tears and said "I just want to marry my partner, like other people get to do".

Dee

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by AGDee
I knew people who truly couldn't stand Clinton, but I didn't hear people (like on NPR today) who felt that the country was pushing them out because there are now state Constitutional amendments that encourage discrimination.


This is exactly how I feel, and I'm straight.

Honestly, I am not sure I can be proud of an America that votes to write discrimination into the Constitution when I was raised to be proud of American because we don't discriminate in our Constitution. And it worries me, because, sure, the gay marriage laws don't affect me, but what's next? This is the first time that I can think of that Americans have chosen to put discrimination based on sexual preference/race/religion/gender/whatever BACK into the Constitution, and that doesn't bode well for the future of this country, IMO. That's not what I was taught that this country was about.

Now, I realize that this doesn't have much if anything to do with the Bush re-election, and honestly, having Bush back in office doesn't upset or frighten me nearly as much as the anti-gay marriage voters do. But the two are closely linked in voters' minds because they appeared on the same ballots and Bush has supported anti-gay marriage initiatives.

I realize that people are upset after ANY election -- no candidate is going to please one hundred percent of the population, or even sixty. But the vibe I got from people after the 1992/1996/2000 elections was MUCH MUCH different from the vibe I'm getting right now.

[AlphaGamDiva]

i'm not going to say much on this b/c i agree that there should be no marriage ammendment....so i'll make this as short as i can and hope that i am not taken out of context.

yes, there is discrimination. there has ALWAYS been discrimination. and for the past while, there has been an amazing amount of discrimination against Christians. that offends me....personally. we are not allowed to pray in schools (unless we're quiet about it), we are not allowed to say the pledge to the flag b/c of "under God"....it will more than likely be taken off of our currency sooner than later. it will never be fair to EVERYONE.....but no one was screaming "discrimination" when anything was taken away from us. when Christians are being persecuted and denied what we believed to be our rights, people are like, "so?" we didn't want roe v wade, but here it is. why should one group of this country get more consideration than another? they shouldn't, but it happens. it's cool to be gay and need rights, but it's not cool to be a Christian....ever. yeah, we're allowed to get married, but marriage to us is a holy thing....it's not a civil right or an American priviledge, but something given to us by God. that's why most conservatives want it protected, so to speak, b/c they see gays as habitual and unremorseful sinners that should not partake in such a holy gift. again, not saying that i agree, but that's what i understand.

ok, that's short....i'll defend it later. let the flame war begin, i guess.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I think this is really, really true.

On livejournal, I've read many, many entries over the past few days about how disappointed, frustrated, bitter, and sad people are with our country. They are much more so upset than anybody I knew was after 2000, and a lot of people I knew were very upset after 2000...

I would agree with most of your post - there is a sufficient number of unhappy Americans to address those problems, but with one caveat:

What would you consider the average age of those who have or peruse Live Journal?

What is the average age of the American voter?


See, this is where I see the Democratic Party shooting themselves in the collective foot. The party has to be attractive to people of all ages, not just the many splinter groups involved. I cringed everytime I saw "Women for (Kerry or Bush)", "Sportsmen for (Kerry or Bush)", "Teachers for (Kerry or Bush)" etc.

Maybe this is just my opinion, but I think those bumper stickers & such did more harm than good to our country, and very little for the vote. Of course, one of the funny things I saw on Election Day was a man with "Sportsmen for Kerry" on his bumper, while I was just behind him with a client who had "Sportsmen for Bush" on the front of his car!

[VIOLETGRL24]

First the Yankees now this. Oh Great :(

[RACooper]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
i'm not going to say much on this b/c i agree that there should be no marriage ammendment....so i'll make this as short as i can and hope that i am not taken out of context.

yes, there is discrimination. there has ALWAYS been discrimination. and for the past while, there has been an amazing amount of discrimination against Christians. that offends me....personally. we are not allowed to pray in schools (unless we're quiet about it), we are not allowed to say the pledge to the flag b/c of "under God"....it will more than likely be taken off of our currency sooner than later. it will never be fair to EVERYONE.....but no one was screaming "discrimination" when anything was taken away from us. when Christians are being persecuted and denied what we believed to be our rights, people are like, "so?" we didn't want roe v wade, but here it is. why should one group of this country get more consideration than another? they shouldn't, but it happens. it's cool to be gay and need rights, but it's not cool to be a Christian....ever. yeah, we're allowed to get married, but marriage to us is a holy thing....it's not a civil right or an American priviledge, but something given to us by God. that's why most conservatives want it protected, so to speak, b/c they see gays as habitual and unremorseful sinners that should not partake in such a holy gift. again, not saying that i agree, but that's what i understand.

ok, that's short....i'll defend it later. let the flame war begin, i guess.

And flame I shall ;)

I don't really see any discrimination against Christians... just certain brands of Christians if you will, or more specifically the right or fundamentalist Christian. You complain about why should one group of the US get more consideration than another... when you seem to want greater consideration for your interpretation of Christianity... So what you can't pray (applies to all faiths) in a public school; see here's the thing public means state, so seperation between Church (which is more than just Christianity) and State... if you have a problem just go to a relgious school. Okay the under God in the pledge.. umm it's not just Christians that pray to "God"... so again I don't see this as singling out Christians. You also mention Roe vs Wade; umm... what makes you think that the people who brought it about and have supported don't ascribe to the Christian faith? As for marriage, yes for you it is performed in a Church/Temple/whatever but it is ultimatley the state that grants the legal recognition of the union... what the neo-con/religious right want is for the state to mandate their beliefs on all others, thereby enforcing their will on others and therefore discriminating against people of faiths or beliefs that are different or not in line with the "accepted faith".

[kddani]

Everyone loves to throw around buzz words like "discrimination"

Christians are not being discriminated against (and yes, I am one, Catholic, however, which many Christians don't consider Christian but it is).

Not being able to pray in school comes under the "time, place, and manner" restrictions that the courts have interpreted that the first amendment allows for. Your right to pray is not being taken away. You can pray silently or very quietly in school. You can pray outside of school. No one is telling you what you can and cannot pray (i.e. "content"). No one is telling you that you can't be a Christian.

Homosexuals, however, are being told that they can't do a certain thing that everyone else in the country can (i.e. get married). Doesn't matter where they go, how they try, or when they try, they can't do it. They cannot enjoy a right that every other American can.

And on the topic of how upset people are- it is incredible. I work for a Plaintiff's firm, which many Republicans have depicted as the big evil devil this this campaign. I have seen and talked to attorneys (some of whom are actually Repubican- i.e. my boss is a republican and mayor of his town) who are so defeated looking, and are so scared for what their future holds. It's not just that Bush is President, it's that the religious right (which for me personally is the faction of the republican party that I have a strong distaste for) controls the House and Senate. It's a scary scary thought. At least 48 % of us are feeling in a way that it's "taxation without representation"- our interests are not going to be represented and looked out for.

ETA: an elected official is supposed to represent ALL of his constitutents and look out for ALL of their needs. He or she is NOT elected just to represent the people that voted for him. The great many of us fear that that's exactly what is being done here- that Bush is going to represent the interests of half the country, and the other half is being left out in the cold.

As an aside, i'm glad that this thread seems to have at least some intelligent discussion and not just all bashing.

[AGDee]

You can pray anywhere you want to. You can't make anybody else pray. I pray all the time.. at work, in my car, before each meal, at school before I go to my son's parent-teacher conference... everywhere! However, if I am not just as willing to have a school say a Muslim prayer, a Wiccan prayer, etc, with my children, then I'm not willing to have them say a Christian prayer collectively. If I'm not willing to have Allah on our currency, or in our pledge of allegiance, or have other people's Gods in those places, then I don't think we should push our God on others either. If I'm going to believe that other countries, who have laws based on their religion, which repress women's rights, are wrong and restricting people's freedom, then I have to follow the same philosophy when it comes to our own country.. that there needs to be justification for laws OTHER than religion. For most laws, this is true.

I am of the philosophy that laws should be in place to protect people's rights, not restrict them. If a behavior doesn't harm others or infringe or their civil rights, then it shouldn't be illegal. (so yes, I think Prostitution should be legal, private drug use should be legal, etc.)

Dee

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by AGDee
I knew people who truly couldn't stand Clinton, but I didn't hear people (like on NPR today) who felt that the country was pushing them out because there are now state Constitutional amendments that encourage discrimination. There are people who feel that they cannot continue to live in the United States because they don't have the same rights here as other citizens. I think people are becoming personally offended by the way other Americans are treating them or talking about them. I know I get personally offended when I hear Bush talking about important marriage is in our society and how we need to keep families together, since I've been divorced twice. I know a lot of people (mainly women) who are very offended that someone wants to tell them what they can and cannot do with their uterus. I know others who are very worried about the way the Patriot Act has been implemented, and how it takes away our civil rights.

Also, particularly with the gay marriage issue, they aren't feeling alienated by the President per se, but by the general population. The man I heard them interviewing on NPR today was in tears and said "I just want to marry my partner, like other people get to do".

Dee

Its funny how people don't get their "way" so they want to pout an leave instead of stay and fight for their "cause." Sounds like a toddler having a temper tantrum to me. I say let them go to other countries...and then when/if they come back..they will appreciate the good ol US of A.

[AGDee]

I think they feel hopeless that they have any chance to fight for their cause.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by AGDee
I think they feel hopeless that they have any chance to fight for their cause.

It seems libs are getting a taste of what its been like to live in America...as a conservative...how do you think conservatives felt before FOX news and talk radio LOL... At least conservatives stayed and fought for what they believed in..

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
Its funny how people don't get their "way" so they want to pout an leave instead of stay and fight for their "cause." Sounds like a toddler having a temper tantrum to me. I say let them go to other countries...and then when/if they come back..they will appreciate the good ol US of A.

Actually, at least here, they are fighting to the best of their ability. The day after the amendment passed, a constitutional challenge was filed. Now, since our supreme court is retained or removed by ballot every 4 years, there's no way in hell they'll rule in favor of the challenge. However, it will open the door to the US Supreme Court if they'll take the case.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
there were a lot of ppl i knew who were just as concerned during the clinton administration.




Nope, no there weren't.



PS - although my political ideology is (relatively) similar to that held by you and kitso . . . don't you jackmoves see that by acting like hoosier, you reinforce stereotypes about republicans and make us look like fucks? Knock it off, add something constructive beyond "BUSH IS HOTTTTT! 4 MORE YEARS!", and discuss constructively. For the love of God.

[kddani]

Thank you!

Originally posted by KSig RC

PS - although my political ideology is (relatively) similar to that held by you and kitso . . . don't you jackmoves see that by acting like hoosier, you reinforce stereotypes about republicans and make us look like fucks? Knock it off, add something constructive beyond "BUSH IS HOTTTTT! 4 MORE YEARS!", and discuss constructively. For the love of God.

This moment of clarity has been brought to you by KSig RC

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
yes, there is discrimination. there has ALWAYS been discrimination. and for the past while, there has been an amazing amount of discrimination against Christians. that offends me....personally. we are not allowed to pray in schools (unless we're quiet about it), we are not allowed to say the pledge to the flag b/c of "under God"....it will more than likely be taken off of our currency sooner than later. it will never be fair to EVERYONE.....but no one was screaming "discrimination" when anything was taken away from us. when Christians are being persecuted and denied what we believed to be our rights, people are like, "so?" we didn't want roe v wade, but here it is. why should one group of this country get more consideration than another? they shouldn't, but it happens. it's cool to be gay and need rights, but it's not cool to be a Christian....ever. yeah, we're allowed to get married, but marriage to us is a holy thing....it's not a civil right or an American priviledge, but something given to us by God. that's why most conservatives want it protected, so to speak, b/c they see gays as habitual and unremorseful sinners that should not partake in such a holy gift. again, not saying that i agree, but that's what i understand.
ss.




HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA - I'll keep it shorter:


1 - Gays need rights 'given' to them (or more likely 'protected') because YOU ALREADY HAVE THEM - giving them to someone else is NOT PERSECUTION toward you. Jesus.


2 - Nothing that was given to you by (your) God should EVER BE LEGALLY PROTECTED. Our nation was founded on this principal at its heart. If you put on the tinfoil hat and say "it's not in the constitution!" I will mop the floor with you. [note that this is slight hyperbole, as you can claim you were 'given' your life, and obviously murder should still be illegal]


3 - Christians have never been persecuted, and they do NOT have the 'right' to enact prayers in school except for on their own time w/out intruding on others. What you claim is akin to saying whites are being persecuted b/c they can't have their own water fountains, separate from blacks, anymore.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Michael Moore has been strangely silent, hasn't he? He is the only Kerry supporter I would really enjoy saying "nah nah nah" to. Well, him and that record producer guy with the terrible overbite who used to date JLo. He annoyed me with his dumb "vote or die" logo.


Originally posted by FAB*SpiceySpice
LOL are you talking about P Diddy?

I agree, that vote or die crap was pretty STUPID. :rolleyes:


No, I think his name has something to do with Puff-something? Puffy Puff, maybe? Master Puff? LOL, something nonsensical like that.

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
we didn't want roe v wade, but here it is. why should one group of this country get more consideration than another? they shouldn't, but it happens. it's cool to be gay and need rights, but it's not cool to be a Christian....ever. But the difference is, a Christian has the choice to not get an abortion. Without Roe v. Wade, someone who wants to have an abortion (Christian or not) wouldn't have that choice.

- AXiD670, a pro-choice Christian

And Killarney Rose, you're thinking of Puffy, aka Puff Daddy, aka P. Diddy, aka Sean Combs, aka Sean Puffy Combs. :D

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
i'm not going to say much on this b/c i agree that there should be no marriage ammendment....so i'll make this as short as i can and hope that i am not taken out of context. <snip>
As a Christian, I can understand why you're upset, but the thruth of the matter is, there was a time in this country where Christianity was the norm and the daily life of its people relied heavily on Christian traditions. It isn't that way anymore and our country needs to change to reflect that. We have been so used to doing 'whatever we wanted' with regards to our religion in this country, it may seem that we're being 'stifled' or 'discriminated' against, when in reality, we're not. It's not going to be easy to learn, but we're going to have to.

You know, if my very Conservative, very Lutheran father (who was very upset when my sister converted to Catholicism to marry her husband) can come to terms and be accepting of his lesbian cousin living with her life partner, I think there is hope for the rest of the country.

Point of information: the words "Under God" weren't added to the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954. A time in our post-war country when Christian Conservativity (is that even a word?) was at an all-time high. We seemed to do okay for 60 years prior to that, I think we'll be okay now.

[Kevin]

NEWSWEEK ELECTION ISSUE: 'How He Did It'
Thursday November 4, 2:37 pm ET
Kerry Laments: 'I Can't Believe I'm Losing to This Idiot'
Carville Leads Clintonistas' Coups, Implores Cahill to Step Aside or He'll 'Tell The Truth' About Campaign Woes On NBC's 'Meet The Press'
Daughter Alexandra Pleads to Kerry After Locking in Nomination: 'Will You Please Appreciate This Moment for 10 Seconds?'

# NEW YORK, Nov. 4 /PRNewswire/ -- When President Bush's poll numbers surged in April after a press conference where his performance was derided by the press and the chattering classes, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry was baffled, writes Newsweek Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas in an exclusive report in Newsweek's special election issue. "He said with a sigh to one top staffer, 'I can't believe I'm losing to this idiot.'"(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20041104/NYTH186 )

The November 15 issue "How He Did It" (on newsstands Thursday, November 4) includes an exclusive behind-the-scenes account of the entire presidential campaign reported by a separate Newsweek Special Project team that worked for more than a year on the extraordinary campaign. Highlights from the report:

The Clintonista "Coups." At several critical junctures Kerry's campaign (and the candidate himself), struggled to find sure footing. Following the missteps of August, Clinton veteran James Carville confronted Kerry campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill, telling her she had to step aside and let newly arrived Joe Lockhart run the campaign. So worked up, Carville began to cry, imploring Cahill: "You've got to let him do it." Carville continued, "Nobody can gain power without someone losing power." Carville threatened to go on "Meet the Press" the next day "and tell the truth about how bad it is" if Cahill didn't give effective control to Lockhart.

The "Outlandish" McCain Offer. Kerry's courtship of Senator John McCain to be his running mate was longer-standing and more intense than previously reported. As far back as August 2003, Kerry had taken McCain to breakfast to sound him out to run on a unity ticket. McCain batted away the idea as not serious, but Kerry, after he wrapped up the nomination in March, went back after McCain a half-dozen more times. "To show just how sincere he was, he made an outlandish offer," Newsweek's Thomas reports. "If McCain said yes he would expand the role of vice president to include secretary of Defense and the overall control of foreign policy. McCain exclaimed, 'You're out of your mind. I don't even know if it's constitutional, and it certainly wouldn't sell.'" Kerry was thwarted and furious. "Why the f--- didn't he take it? After what the Bush people did to him...'"

"A Marathon Man." Kerry's intensity on the trail rarely, if ever, faded. Moments after delivering his victory speech after wrapping up his party's nomination on March 2, Kerry was back in his motorcade and on his cell phone. "Dad," asked his daughter Alexandra. "Will you please appreciate this moment for 10 seconds?" Newsweek reports, "He mumbled yes, yes, he was happy, it was good, and then went back to working the cell phone." It occurred to his daughter Vanessa that her father did not match the media's clichi of him being a fourth-quarter player, he was a marathon man. Writes Thomas, "Kerry liked to say that 'every day is extra' after Vietnam, but actually every day was like the day before, a relentless march toward his goal."

Kerry's drive to self-perfection was boundless-sometimes to a fault. In early spring he sought counsel from Washington speech coach Michael Sheehan. With aides he would sometimes say, "Tell me everything you think I'm doing wrong." When John Sasso arrived on the campaign in September he found a candidate who had turned himself into a pincushion. "Kerry had been inviting personal criticism from pretty much anyone who had an opinion...Kerry was drowning in negative energy from all around," Thomas writes. Sasso wanted it to stop. There was to be no more direct criticism of the candidate, period. And Teresa and the daughters were not exempt, Newsweek reports.

Additional exclusive news reported in Newsweek's Special Election Issue:

Clinton Advice Spurned. Looking for a way to pick up swing voters in the Red States, former President Bill Clinton, in a phone call with Kerry, urged the Senator to back local bans on gay marriage. Kerry respectfully listened, then told his aides, "I'm not going to ever do that."

Kerry Anger Over Swift Boat Ads. By August, the attack of the Swift Boat veterans was getting to Kerry. He called adviser Tad Devine, who was prepping to appear on "Meet The Press" the next day: "It's a pack of f---ing lies, what they're saying about me," he fairly shouted over the phone. Kerry blamed his advisers for his predicament. (Cahill and Shrum argued responding to the ads would only dignify them.) He had wanted to fight back; they had counseled caution. Even Kerry's ex-wife, Julia Thorne, was very upset about the ads, she told daughter Vanessa. She could remember how Kerry had suffered in Vietnam; she had seen the scars on his body, heard him cry out at night in his nightmares. She was so agitated about the unfairness of the Swift Boat assault that she told Vanessa she was ready to break her silence, to speak out and personally answer the Swift Boat charges. She changed her mind only when she was reassured that the campaign was about to start fighting back hard.

Managing Teresa. Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, presented a host of behind-the-scenes drama for Kerry. Early on, the campaign staff regarded Teresa as something of a hypochondriac, and she canceled three trips in October at the last minute, usually for what was described to aides as a "nonspecific malady." Kerry's first campaign manager, James Jordan, had little patience for her strong opinions, sending emails trashing the candidate's wife...which inevitably reached his rivals within the campaign, including Bob Shrum (an old Teresa friend) and helped seal Jordan's eventual dismissal.

Later came Kerry campaign's post-convention "Sea to Shining Sea" tour: a 3,500-mile bus and train trek that was not a happy trip for Teresa. With each passing day she made less effort to hide her displeasure. Audiences were mystified when Teresa turned her back to them at daylight rallies and wore dark sunglasses and a hat at night (backstage, the candidate's wife complained of migraines and sore eyes). As they reached the climax of the tour, an hourlong "family vacation" hike in the Grand Canyon, the planned happy-family- vacation was disintegrating in plain view. Daughter Vanessa didn't enjoy being a prop, Teresa was complaining of migraines and telling her husband she couldn't walk anymore. The candidate tried to bravely soldier on, pulling his sullen wife and children to show them the magnificent condors flying overhead.

Edwards Campaigns for Veep. Hours after bowing out of the presidential nomination race on March 3, the senator from North Carolina convened a small circle of his closest advisers at his house on P Street in Georgetown. He wanted the veep nomination, Edwards told his aides, he wanted it badly, and from that moment was going to wage "a full-fledged campaign" to ensure that he got it.

Shades of Dukakis. In early August, when the Swift Boat story started to pick up steam on the talk shows, Susan Estrich, a California law professor, well-known liberal talking head and onetime campaign manager for Michael Dukakis, had called the Kerry campaign for marching orders. She had been booked on Fox's "Hannity & Colmes" to talk about the Swift Boat ads. What are the talking points? Estrich asked the Kerry campaign. There are none, she was told. Estrich was startled. She had seen this bad movie before.

Newsweek's 2004 Special Election Issue marks the magazine's sixth consecutive installment of providing a behind-the-scenes account of the entire presidential campaign. The 50,000-word inside story was written by Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas and edited by Special Projects Director Alexis Gelber. The project's correspondents are: Jonathan Darman (with Kerry), Kevin Peraino (with Bush) and Contributing Editors Eleanor Clift and Peter Goldman.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by AGDee
You can pray anywhere you want to. You can't make anybody else pray. I pray all the time.. at work, in my car, before each meal, at school before I go to my son's parent-teacher conference... everywhere! However, if I am not just as willing to have a school say a Muslim prayer, a Wiccan prayer, etc, with my children, then I'm not willing to have them say a Christian prayer collectively. If I'm not willing to have Allah on our currency, or in our pledge of allegiance, or have other people's Gods in those places, then I don't think we should push our God on others either. If I'm going to believe that other countries, who have laws based on their religion, which repress women's rights, are wrong and restricting people's freedom, then I have to follow the same philosophy when it comes to our own country.. that there needs to be justification for laws OTHER than religion. For most laws, this is true.

I am of the philosophy that laws should be in place to protect people's rights, not restrict them. If a behavior doesn't harm others or infringe or their civil rights, then it shouldn't be illegal. (so yes, I think Prostitution should be legal, private drug use should be legal, etc.)

Dee
That's some healthy Libertarian thinking ya got there!!!

[AGDee]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
It seems libs are getting a taste of what its been like to live in America...as a conservative...how do you think conservatives felt before FOX news and talk radio LOL... At least conservatives stayed and fought for what they believed in..

What weren't you able to do when the Democratic party was at the helm that you are allowed to do now?

[Rudey]

So were you Democrats upset when Bill Clinton told Kerry to say he was against gay marriage to win this election (Kerry didn't btw and made a mistake)?

It didn't quite seem to upset you.

Were you upset when Democrats voted against gay marriage? No it seems this is simply a Bush/Republican issue.

And where have they rewritten the constitution? Perhaps Dick Cheney is against it and would have something to say about that. Perhaps George Bush is against it and was quoted towards the end of the election saying that states should have the right to decide will mean something.

So when you guys are busy painting fairy-tale land, do you use special brushes or what?

-Rudey

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
yes, there is discrimination. there has ALWAYS been discrimination. and for the past while, there has been an amazing amount of discrimination against Christians. that offends me....personally. we are not allowed to pray in schools (unless we're quiet about it), we are not allowed to say the pledge to the flag b/c of "under God"....it will more than likely be taken off of our currency sooner than later. it will never be fair to EVERYONE.....but no one was screaming "discrimination" when anything was taken away from us. when Christians are being persecuted and denied what we believed to be our rights, people are like, "so?" we didn't want roe v wade, but here it is. why should one group of this country get more consideration than another? they shouldn't, but it happens. it's cool to be gay and need rights, but it's not cool to be a Christian....ever. yeah, we're allowed to get married, but marriage to us is a holy thing....it's not a civil right or an American priviledge, but something given to us by God. that's why most conservatives want it protected, so to speak, b/c they see gays as habitual and unremorseful sinners that should not partake in such a holy gift. again, not saying that i agree, but that's what i understand.

But not everyone in this country is Christian. The Christians are certainly not being persecuted. Give me a break. They are pandered to. How would you feel if this country was run by a Muslim or Jewish leader who makes his decisions based on what Mohammed or Moses would do? This country was founded on freedom of religion and I currently feel that W does not care that I'm a Jew. His policies and decisions are all based on what Jesus would do and, yes, I have a huge problem with it.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZTAngel
But not everyone in this country is Christian. The Christians are certainly not being persecuted. Give me a break. They are pandered to. How would you feel if this country was run by a Muslim or Jewish leader who makes his decisions based on what Mohammed or Moses would do? This country was founded on freedom of religion and I currently feel that W does not care that I'm a Jew. His policies and decisions are all based on what Jesus would do and, yes, I have a huge problem with it.

That's not fair of you to say either.

I have a huge issue with the Democrats no longer just being liberal but being left-wing and embracing people like Sharpton and Michael Moore who are beyond insulting to Jews.

But then again this isn't about right or wrong. This is about politics.

-Rudey

[WCUgirl]

I guess this is directed toward AlphaGamDiva, or whomever else wants to answer.

Okay, we've determined the (Christans'? Conservatives'? Just trying to generalize those who are against gay marriage for religious reasons, not trying to offend anyone!) problem w/ gay marriage is that marriage is a holy union designed by God.

What about civil unions? Would you be opposed to that? It extends the legal rights to gay couples w/o involving religion, so I don't see how that could be offensive.

If you're a Christian, you'll probably still think the gay couples who are joined in a civil union are "living in sin" or whatever, but people do sinful things every day. Technically, sleeping w/ someone before marriage is a sin...so by that reasoning there should be a law making it illegal to have sex before marriage. Just a thought. :)

Oh, and Rudey, I personally would prefer that Kerry not say he was against gay marriage (if he truly wasn't) just to win the election. If he is against it, but didn't say it, then yes, he made a mistake. But that's just me. :shrug:

[Rudey]

Did you read the post I made?

This isn't about good vs. bad.

This isn't about Republicans/Bush vs. gays.

And this election wasn't based only on gays.

But there are tons of threads on gay marriage so I'm sure those who are against it, including Democrats and non-Christians, would be willing to talk about it.

-Rudey

Originally posted by AXiD670
I guess this is directed toward AlphaGamDiva, or whomever else wants to answer.

Okay, we've determined the (Christans'? Conservatives'? Just trying to generalize those who are against gay marriage for religious reasons, not trying to offend anyone!) problem w/ gay marriage is that marriage is a holy union designed by God.

What about civil unions? Would you be opposed to that? It extends the legal rights to gay couples w/o involving religion, so I don't see how that could be offensive.

If you're a Christian, you'll probably still think the gay couples who are joined in a civil union are "living in sin" or whatever, but people do sinful things every day. Technically, sleeping w/ someone before marriage is a sin...so by that reasoning there should be a law making it illegal to have sex before marriage. Just a thought. :)

Oh, and Rudey, I personally would prefer that Kerry not say he was against gay marriage (if he truly wasn't) just to win the election. If he is against it, but didn't say it, then yes, he made a mistake. But that's just me. :shrug:

[WCUgirl]

Okay, I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to ask.

I'll pose my question in the proper thread.

:scurries off to utilize that dreaded "search" button:

[wreckingcrew]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Nope, no there weren't.



PS - although my political ideology is (relatively) similar to that held by you and kitso . . . don't you jackmoves see that by acting like hoosier, you reinforce stereotypes about republicans and make us look like fucks? Knock it off, add something constructive beyond "BUSH IS HOTTTTT! 4 MORE YEARS!", and discuss constructively. For the love of God.

Hey jackmove,

I was just trying to have a little fun and inject a little humor into the situation. I didn't stick around to espouse and debate from a closeminded stance, merely made a couple throwaway comments that i figured would make people on BOTH sides chuckle.

But that might be hard to see up on that high horse of yours.

:)

KS 361

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by AXiD670
What about civil unions? Would you be opposed to that? It extends the legal rights to gay couples w/o involving religion, so I don't see how that could be offensive.

IIRC, Germany only recognizes civil unions. You must be joined in union by a judge and if you want to have a separate, religious ceremony later, you may, but a Preist/Pastor/Rabbi/whathaveyou would have no legal authority to declare a union as they do here. I wouldn't mind if it were implemented in the states, but then you get the argument of "separate but equal" and we all saw how well that worked in the 1900s. I even think that's what Clinton was aiming towards when he signed the Defense of Marriage act.

[AGDee]

Originally posted by Rudey
So were you Democrats upset when Bill Clinton told Kerry to say he was against gay marriage to win this election (Kerry didn't btw and made a mistake)?

It didn't quite seem to upset you.

Were you upset when Democrats voted against gay marriage? No it seems this is simply a Bush/Republican issue.

And where have they rewritten the constitution? Perhaps Dick Cheney is against it and would have something to say about that. Perhaps George Bush is against it and was quoted towards the end of the election saying that states should have the right to decide will mean something.

So when you guys are busy painting fairy-tale land, do you use special brushes or what?

-Rudey

I am absolutely apalled that Clinton told Kerry that, if in fact it occurred. However, what I heard Kerry say numerous times was that although he didn't personally believe in gay marriage, he didn't think there should be a Constitutional amendment restricting it based on the philosophy that the Constitution shouldn't restrict rights.

I noted numerous times that Michigan's proposal was to amend our State Constitution. I am EXTREMELY disappointed that the state I live in voted that way and have voiced that. It passed by a huge margin. It could make some people feel like they can't win and may as well leave. And, not only did it ban same sex marriage, it banned any type of union and effectively eliminated the opportunity for same sex partners to share employement benefits. Yes, I'm hugely disillusioned by the Democrats who voted for this amendment.

Overall though, I'm referring to many more issues than just gay marriage.

Every Democrat I know thinks that both Michael Moore and Al Sharpton are way off base. Just as I recognize that every Republican is not Pat Robertson or Rush Limbaugh. Defining either group by their extremists is not wise nor accurate.

Dee

[Rudey]

Originally posted by AGDee
I am absolutely apalled that Clinton told Kerry that, if in fact it occurred. However, what I heard Kerry say numerous times was that although he didn't personally believe in gay marriage, he didn't think there should be a Constitutional amendment restricting it based on the philosophy that the Constitution shouldn't restrict rights.

I noted numerous times that Michigan's proposal was to amend our State Constitution. I am EXTREMELY disappointed that the state I live in voted that way and have voiced that. It passed by a huge margin. It could make some people feel like they can't win and may as well leave. And, not only did it ban same sex marriage, it banned any type of union and effectively eliminated the opportunity for same sex partners to share employement benefits. Yes, I'm hugely disillusioned by the Democrats who voted for this amendment.

Overall though, I'm referring to many more issues than just gay marriage.

Every Democrat I know thinks that both Michael Moore and Al Sharpton are way off base. Just as I recognize that every Republican is not Pat Robertson or Rush Limbaugh. Defining either group by their extremists is not wise nor accurate.

Dee

Really? Perhaps you weren't watching the DNC when Al Sharpton was embraced and gave a speech at the convention. And perhaps you haven't noticed the oh-so-many Michael Moore opened my eyes threads even on Greekchat. Those are just two people and what they've said and done offends me because of my background and religious/cultural identity. That is why I am baffled, over and over, as to why my people identify with this party. But then I remember Republican James Baker saying "Fuck the Jews" and it dawns on me that again, this isn't about right and wrong.

And yes, Clinton did say that but there was no row over it and while you may say you're upset right now about how some Democrats are against gay marriage, you didn't make the biggest issue of it. That is how I see it.

And of course there were more issues than gay marriage (gay marriage is something that Kerry wouldn't touch if he was president IMO), but it's gay marriage that a select few GC'ers are on the rampage about right now.

-Rudey

[AGDee]

If you read my post dated 11-04-2004 11:59 PM, you'll see that I said "other Americans" and didn't refer to a specific party, although I did reference Bush on one issue also. I am more concerned with a broad philosophical difference than any one particular issue.

Sometimes, there are public figures whose points I agree with, but whose methods are questionable. Jack Kervorkian is a good example of this. I am for physician assisted suicide, but his methods were so radical that his ideas got lost in the drama of HOW he did things. That's how I feel about people like Sharpton and Moore. The original idea or intention is good, but the methods of getting out the message turn too many people off.

The DNC is a politically staged event, not your average Joe Democrat on the street. After a vicious primary cycle, they try to bring anybody who ran earlier, to be on board with them, in hopes of getting their supporters to support the presidential candidate. In fact, the whole DNC was a big pep rally (at least the things they showed on TV). Everything at a Convention is orchestrated.

Dee

ETA: It's possible that the Democrats I know (who are Michiganders) are less enamored with Michael Moore because, long before Farenheit 911 or Bowling for Columbine, he did Roger and Me, which ripped on GM. Since GM and other car companies have fed, clothed and educated so many here in Michigan, and that movie was made out to be a bunch of bull, the same assumptions are made about any Moore movie here.

[Rudey]

Perhaps your message was lost in the fact that this was a thread about Bush winning and also so many GC'ers were just on a rampage against anything Bush/Republicans. I don't know.

And yes, a lot of politics is staged, and it's not about right and wrong. If Lyndon Larouche was as big a name as Moore and Sharpton, his bigoted ass would also be embraced by the DNC.

-Rudey

Originally posted by AGDee
If you read my post dated 11-04-2004 11:59 PM, you'll see that I said "other Americans" and didn't refer to a specific party, although I did reference Bush on one issue also. I am more concerned with a broad philosophical difference than any one particular issue.

Sometimes, there are public figures whose points I agree with, but whose methods are questionable. Jack Kervorkian is a good example of this. I am for physician assisted suicide, but his methods were so radical that his ideas got lost in the drama of HOW he did things. That's how I feel about people like Sharpton and Moore. The original idea or intention is good, but the methods of getting out the message turn too many people off.

The DNC is a politically staged event, not your average Joe Democrat on the street. After a vicious primary cycle, they try to bring anybody who ran earlier, to be on board with them, in hopes of getting their supporters to support the presidential candidate. In fact, the whole DNC was a big pep rally (at least the things they showed on TV). Everything at a Convention is orchestrated.

Dee

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by AggieSigmaNu361
Hey jackmove,

I was just trying to have a little fun and inject a little humor into the situation. I didn't stick around to espouse and debate from a closeminded stance, merely made a couple throwaway comments that i figured would make people on BOTH sides chuckle.

But that might be hard to see up on that high horse of yours.

:)

KS 361


Levity is key, and I may have misread your purpose, I'll admit that - but monica has a history of pawning pointed comments off as 'offhand', which is bullshit, and you looked like you were piling on . . . no worries either way, feel free to make me laugh, but also feel free to contribute.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Levity is key...
So, with the above in mind, I saw a bumper sticker on a car on I-25 a little while ago...

It said:

Oh no, more
BU**SH**

(including the *'s)

OK, so I giggled.

[kddani]

adding some levity to the thread:

http://www.jestmag.com/3-5/banana.html

my boss showed this to me this AM. It's a good laugh

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by KSig RC
The geopolitical assumptions for starting the war were solid...You got that right. The reason why I don't respect the opinion of most (not all, but most) people who object to this war is because they just too freaking stupid to even understand the basic geopolitics involved. All that you have to do is look at a map. Its that simple. Look at a map before you start concocting weak and absurd conspiracy theories about the war.

The American Left fumbled the ball... again. They had a chance to raise some important issues, but instead they chose to be demagogic and abandon all of the principles of classical liberalism. The Republicans were not much better, but the faction of the American Right that set out to demonize Kerry and Edwards was far more isolated, and far more limited in access to the media. The Left chose to demonize their political opponents in a way that would have made Joseph Goebbels envious. Now they get to wallow in their pity, while they advertise their lack of basic democratic principles.

I'm not happy about how inept and pathetic the DNC is. I believe in competition, and the Democratic Party is just not competing. They offer no new ideas, and no clear vision. Its either be "Republican Lite" or "Green Party Lite." The DNC has to come up with something better. They'll be able to make a challenge for the Presidency in 2012 or 2016. Something tells me that they'll just offer more of the same.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AGDee
The general concensus, even among the Republican reps there, was that the Republicans are going to have to move toward the middle if the country is going to be unified.I believe that they are wrong. Republicans don't have to move anywhere to unify this country. In one year, this country will be far more unified. Why? Economic prosperity.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by kddani
ETA: an elected official is supposed to represent ALL of his constitutents and look out for ALL of their needs. He or she is NOT elected just to represent the people that voted for him.That's your opinion, not a fact.

Many political scientists study the approach to representing a constituency. To simplify it, there are basically three models. There is the "representative" model, to which you allude. There is the "trustee" model, which is where a politician does what he thinks is right, and then lets his record be subject to scrutiny during the next election. And then there is the "politico" model which is a hybrid of the two.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AGDee
The DNC is a politically staged event, not your average Joe Democrat on the street. After a vicious primary cycle, they try to bring anybody who ran earlier, to be on board with them, in hopes of getting their supporters to support the presidential candidate. In fact, the whole DNC was a big pep rally (at least the things they showed on TV). Everything at a Convention is orchestrated.You have the DNC confused with its convention. DNC = Democratic National Committee. They are not an event, but an organization.

[AGDee]

I prefer civil rights to economic prosperity, personally. While I need enough money to survive, I value other things more, so economic prosperity isn't something that will help swing me to the Republican side and I don't think I'm alone in that. It will bring some people over, but I can't be bought.

Yes, I was talking about the Democratic National Convention, you're correct. Rudey and I were talking about the Convention and I was lazy and used an acronym.

I share kddani's view of a "representative model", which is one of the biggest reasons that I didn't care for Bush as a candidate. That man definitely has his convictions and beliefs and will always make his decisions based on them. Those convictions and beliefs are miles apart from mine. He leads from a "trustee model". Thanks for giving me names for these models as I've had this debate before with others, without have specific model names.

Dee

[PhiPsiRuss]

You may prefer civil rights to economic prosperity, but try to have civil rights without economic prosperity. Economic prosperity isn't "buying people." Its how society progresses, and its why we don't live in caves anymore.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by KSig RC
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA - I'll keep it shorter:


1 - Gays need rights 'given' to them (or more likely 'protected') because YOU ALREADY HAVE THEM - giving them to someone else is NOT PERSECUTION toward you. Jesus.


2 - Nothing that was given to you by (your) God should EVER BE LEGALLY PROTECTED. Our nation was founded on this principal at its heart. If you put on the tinfoil hat and say "it's not in the constitution!" I will mop the floor with you. [note that this is slight hyperbole, as you can claim you were 'given' your life, and obviously murder should still be illegal]


3 - Christians have never been persecuted, and they do NOT have the 'right' to enact prayers in school except for on their own time w/out intruding on others. What you claim is akin to saying whites are being persecuted b/c they can't have their own water fountains, separate from blacks, anymore.

oh holy geez......

when i was discussing the whole gay thing, i was ATTEMPTING to explain the whole Christian viewpoint thing....but being a Christian who is against the ammendment, i may be a little off. that was my understanding, thanks. from what i understand, handing over that divine right (note, not civil right, according to conservs/Christians/what have you) to someone who lives in an "abomination" is a hard thing for those who are for the ammendment to accept. i am NOT FOR THE AMMENDMENT. I VOTED NO. JESUS, yourself. may i quote myself here for a moment? Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
again, not saying that i agree, but that's what i understand.

i believe that my thoughts and beliefs are protected b/c this is the USA. everyone else's free speech, etc. is protected....i think i'm included in that. just another off handed, random remark for ya, just to throw that in there. my post which started this whole discovery of my idioticness was only to shine some light on another viewpoint, but not necessarily totally my own. if that makes any sense.......

and yes, believe it or not, mr. niceguy, Christians have been treated like crap a lot in this country. i don't think anyone would have a isht if someone put up a chinese proverb in court houses, but b/c someone put up the 10 commandments, well HEAVEN FORBID. if it has something to do with the Bible, ppl can't handle that (even if it's a GOOD message....don't kill thy neighbor is pretty cool to me) b/c it's the word of God. dum dum dum! i can't hear it, my ears will explode. we've been told we're stupid, that we're dumb and not-informed b/c we're too wound up Jesus' butt. fabulous. i am informed, but my opinion is just different. oh wait, i forgot my opinion can't be different and even close to conservative....b/c then i'm wrong. AND stupid. stupid me! the Christian conservatives i know are also informed....my parents are HARD CORE right wingers, and yes, that's a lil un-nerving for me, too....but they are making decisions based on their beliefs and convictions and voting for the person who best represents that. that's how people vote. this go 'round, seems like conservative thinking was the majority.

as far as prayer, i am with ya on that no organized prayer thing b/c yes there are a million religions in this country.....i'm with you ppl on more than i was able to properly express last night/this morning evidently b/c i was only attempting to show another side....the Christian side, which i do believe gets the shaft. i am around Christians, i am a Christian, i am in the South, so that's what i am familiar with. my fault for the confusion and the abundance of frustration. just from where i stand, my parents have felt for a long time that no one was properly representing them, now they do. that's what i see now.....i'm sorry liberals are suffering how my parents did some years ago. i can understand how you feel....and that's sincere.

as far as ppl being concerned over clinton, uh YES there were many ppl i knew who were. i live in the SOUTH, what was it, jackmove?? and the South, as scary as it is for you open minded souls, is the Bible belt.....clinton, while claiming to be Southern Baptist, was anything but. i'm glad that everyone else has had someone that they felt was on their side.......now i think it's good that someone else does.

jackmove.....lol.....idiot. sorry, KSigRC, didn't realize i offended you so much. :rolleyes: can't win 'em all, i guess.
**this whole post wasn't directed totally at KSigRC....i tried to answer some questions or whatever concerning my post. if i did great, if not, oh well. i'm excited about my wknd....**

:D

[AGDee]

We are clearly viewing prosperity (as well as most everything in life) in different ways.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AGDee
We are clearly viewing prosperity (as well as most everything in life) in different ways. When I talk about "economic prosperity," I, like most people, am refering to macroeconomics.

What do you mean by "economic prosperity?"

[KSig RC]

I think you mistook me here - I was assailing the viewpoints, not you personally, and I'm glad you're against the amendment, b/c I am too. I was assailing what are extremely common complaints from the Christian Right - the portion of the Republican party that I don't agree with, even as a card-carrying member.

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
oh holy geez......

when i was discussing the whole gay thing, i was ATTEMPTING to explain the whole Christian viewpoint thing....but being a Christian who is against the ammendment, i may be a little off. that was my understanding, thanks. from what i understand, handing over that divine right (note, not civil right, according to conservs/Christians/what have you) to someone who lives in an "abomination" is a hard thing for those who are for the ammendment to accept. i am NOT FOR THE AMMENDMENT. I VOTED NO. JESUS, yourself. may i quote myself here for a moment?


I get where you're coming from, but an amendment steps across the line from "divine right" to "legal right" . . . there is no other basis for denying gays these rights other than religion, no? Then it's clearly a violation of church/state etc etc I'm repeating myself.

We are clearly right here, by being against this sort of thing - I know you're laying out a rationale, but it's flawed implicitly. I'm attacking this flaw, not the religion behind it.

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
i believe that my thoughts and beliefs are protected b/c this is the USA. everyone else's free speech, etc. is protected....i think i'm included in that. just another off handed, random remark for ya, just to throw that in there. my post which started this whole discovery of my idioticness was only to shine some light on another viewpoint, but not necessarily totally my own. if that makes any sense.......

True, I don't think I told you to stop voting, more likely to address issues in a better manner. You're starting to do this, unless you're going to start calling me an idiot or something . . .

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
and yes, believe it or not, mr. niceguy, Christians have been treated like crap a lot in this country. i don't think anyone would have a isht if someone put up a chinese proverb in court houses, but b/c someone put up the 10 commandments, well HEAVEN FORBID. if it has something to do with the Bible, ppl can't handle that (even if it's a GOOD message....don't kill thy neighbor is pretty cool to me) b/c it's the word of God. dum dum dum! i can't hear it, my ears will explode. we've been told we're stupid, that we're dumb and not-informed b/c we're too wound up Jesus' butt. fabulous. i am informed, but my opinion is just different. oh wait, i forgot my opinion can't be different and even close to conservative....b/c then i'm wrong. AND stupid. stupid me! the Christian conservatives i know are also informed....my parents are HARD CORE right wingers, and yes, that's a lil un-nerving for me, too....but they are making decisions based on their beliefs and convictions and voting for the person who best represents that. that's how people vote. this go 'round, seems like conservative thinking was the majority.

In no way did I say you're stupid for being a "HARD CORE right winger", which would seem silly at best since I'm a "MODERATE right winger" . . . but I just don't think I can get the message through to people on here w/out using extreme examples. How bout this . . .

(*Impersonal you now, general statements!*)

Let's say you walk into a public office, or your kids go to school. They have a mandatory prayer moment, where they pray to Allah, out loud, mandated by the school. Would you be comfortable with that?

Or how about having a list of Islamic laws on the wall of the courts you're being tried in, and the judge . . . well, wow, he's a fundamentalist Muslim! That might be disconcerting for you . . . which is why those things are BANNED in public buildings.

How on Earth can anyone say Christians are treated like crap? YOU RUN THE FUCKING PLACE, in no way can you say you're being abased. (This is the impersonal you again, just to clarify)

I've heard this argument a million times, and every time it just comes down to people assuming their way is innocuous (and, obviously, correct, at least for them), at least enough to ignore the founding principles of our nation.

The money didn't originally say "In God We Trust" and the POA didn't always say "Under God" - Christians in power added these decades, even centuries, later. To say Christians are somehow abased is arrogant and demeaning to those who have fought long and hard (AND STILL FIGHT!) to get rights even remotely equal to white Christians in this nation.

If anyone would like to refute that last paragraph, please, let's discuss openly and honestly - but as far as I know, that's as close to a truism as I can come.

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
as far as prayer, i am with ya on that no organized prayer thing b/c yes there are a million religions in this country.....i'm with you ppl on more than i was able to properly express last night/this morning evidently b/c i was only attempting to show another side....the Christian side, which i do believe gets the shaft. i am around Christians, i am a Christian, i am in the South, so that's what i am familiar with. my fault for the confusion and the abundance of frustration. just from where i stand, my parents have felt for a long time that no one was properly representing them, now they do. that's what i see now.....i'm sorry liberals are suffering how my parents did some years ago. i can understand how you feel....and that's sincere.

This is the best paragraph you've written - I understand far better your viewpoint, but also you must take a moment and separate yourself from your background, and see that just b/c you are being better represented, this does not mean you weren't being represented before (again, the power and history thing), and etc etc.


Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
as far as ppl being concerned over clinton, uh YES there were many ppl i knew who were. i live in the SOUTH, what was it, jackmove?? and the South, as scary as it is for you open minded souls, is the Bible belt.....clinton, while claiming to be Southern Baptist, was anything but. i'm glad that everyone else has had someone that they felt was on their side.......now i think it's good that someone else does.

jackmove.....lol.....idiot. sorry, KSigRC, didn't realize i offended you so much. :rolleyes: can't win 'em all, i guess.
**this whole post wasn't directed totally at KSigRC....i tried to answer some questions or whatever concerning my post. if i did great, if not, oh well. i'm excited about my wknd....**
:D

. . . and there's the "idiot" portion of the presentation - well, all good, if you can even address a few of these points in a mature, rational manner we can have a good discussion - one that Republicans in general will be increasingly faced with, b/c unfortunately there's a definite rift between, say, you and me.

As far as Clinton - his popularity soared after the adultery scandal, especially in the South. You may have known one or two people, but the reality is that you're applying a couple discrete anecdotal cases to the whole.

Also don't act like I'm taking a dump on the South here, b/c I'm not at all, and I'm Lutheran and Republican - I'm assailing the flaws in logic, not the region, religion or anything.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by KSig RC
...I'm Lutheran....
I knew I liked you for a reason.

[AGDee]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
When I talk about "economic prosperity," I, like most people, am refering to macroeconomics.

What do you mean by "economic prosperity?"

The connotation I got from your post is wide spread wealth. I will be very surprised if that occurs within the next year, particularly in my state. I do think it will occur for the upper middle class and upper class, but for the rest of us, I don't see anything pointing to change any time soon.

As for the other issues, my main point is that, I think MOST of you would be totally inflamed if you were forced to follow the religious laws of a religion that you didn't ascribe to. Possibly inflamed enough to make a statement like "I'm moving to Canada".


Dee

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

http://letsriot.com/stuff/new_map.jpg

http://www.nowgocreate.com/public_showcase/img/923_alexander_1099562360.jpg

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi http://www.nowgocreate.com/public_showcase/img/923_alexander_1099562360.jpgThis is the type of ignorant demagoguery that prevents any type of real discourse.