Princeton's Attitude

[exlurker]

Princeton, as you may have heard, sent out a letter to its incoming first-year (freshman) class urging them not to join fraternities or sororities. According to The Daily Princetonian the letter doesn't seem to have affected recruitment numbers. Apparently Princeton students and their parents disregard the school's administration if they feel like it.

For the recent article about the letter (and quotes from a member of Pi Kappa Alpha and a member of Kappa Kappa Gamma) see

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/16/news/10730.shtml

For a letter to the editor that is favorable to Greeks at Princeton, see

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/17/opinion/10751.shtml

[taumusigma]

I have never seen a university be so blatant. I'm glad some are fighting back. I wonder why the administration thought this was the best way to go? They could come to a compromise on things if they really wanted change. A lot of schools have deferred recruitment and I see no reason why the Greeks wouldn't be willing to accept something if the university would get off everyone's backs.

[Rudey]

Probably because certain alumni of certain clubs feel threatened.

-Rudey

[RUASTgrrl]

I cant believe that and administration would be so ahrsh. Though I understand the reasoning. My campus had deferred Rush. Freshmen couldnt go through recruitment until their secod semester. This gave students time to adjust to campus life and classes without the pressure of rushing and pledging. The IFC somehow managed to get it changed so that the guys could go through their first semester. That was bad. Lots of people failed out.

[33girl]

Originally posted by Rudey
Probably because certain alumni of certain clubs feel threatened.

-Rudey

Excellent point. From what I hear of the "eating clubs" they seem much more elitist than sorority/fraternity rush...

[adpiucf]

Would it not behoove the Greeks to go to deferred rush in a gesture of good will relations with the university?

[madmax]

Exlurker.

Do you go to Princeton? I think a girl was found dead in a dorm there a couple of weeks ago. I was wondering what the story was.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by adpiucf
Would it not behoove the Greeks to go to deferred rush in a gesture of good will relations with the university?

Why is it the fraternity/sorority's fault if someone has trouble with their grades? Eventually, it is the responsibility of the individual to manage their time and priorities. A higher quality organization usually helps them do that, but in the end, it's the individual that has to come through.

Is there data out there that really suggests that all fraternities and sororities are harmful to a student's academic success at Princeton?

[adpiucf]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Why is it the fraternity/sorority's fault if someone has trouble with their grades? Eventually, it is the responsibility of the individual to manage their time and priorities. A higher quality organization usually helps them do that, but in the end, it's the individual that has to come through.

Is there data out there that really suggests that all fraternities and sororities are harmful to a student's academic success at Princeton?

I wasn't suggesting anything about a student's academic performance being the sorority's fault.

My recommendation was just that since Princeton is the institution where the GLO's have set up shop, and Princeton will exist with or without GLO's, the GLO's might have an easier time if they made an effort to break the ice and work with the universities. By being the "bigger person" and working with the university's goals, the GLO's can also meet their goals. I'm just talking about compromise.

Princeton's concern is that a new student is a "fish out of water" who is unaccustomed to functioning without mom and dad. The new student is suceptible to making poor decisions because there are so many new factors in his life. I think their goal is to help the students acclimate, and right now, their position is that Greek Life will hinder the new students' acclimation. Whether or not that is true is irrelevant because the students came to this school to attend Princeton. Joining a GLO is just added icing.

So my point is that the GLO's should make more of an effort to develop a relationship with the university. The GLO's have everything to gain by developing this relationship. Princeton really doesn't lose anything by being anti-Greek, except to upset Greeks. And no student is going to boycott attending the university for that reason. So, since the GLO's have something to gain, it would benefit them to endear themselves to the administration and work together for the benefit of the students.

[33girl]

adpiucf, I mean this in the nicest of ways, but you had a real Muffy Tepperman moment there :D

I had forgotten the GLOs there were not officially recognized. Let's look at it this way - what gives the admin the right to tell freshmen to do something (and use money and time to do so) that isn't officially part of the university? I mean, what if they said "don't get a library card at the town of Princeton library" or "don't join the local chapter of the KKK/Jews for Jesus/whatever"? How about if they advised the students on which local churches they should or should not worship at?

If they want to keep denying Greek life's impact, they're just going to look dumber and dumber. I'm not in favor of first semester rush either, but as far as this situation, if they don't get anything for doing it, why would they?

[adpiucf]

Originally posted by 33girl
adpiucf, I mean this in the nicest of ways, but you had a real Muffy Tepperman moment there :D


ROTFL :D

[Janerz222]

Grrr... After I simmer down and collect my thoughts, I'll be writing a letter to the Prince and President Tilghman and Dean Deignan. (I am a Theta alumna and a Princeton alumna.)

I'll post a copy of my letter on this thread, in case it's of interest to anyone.

A few quick points, from my undergraduate experience at P'ton: the eating clubs lose NOTHING from having GLOs on campus. Almost all GLO members also belong to eating clubs. Don't get me started on the issue of narrowing your social circle that early in your P'ton career - GLOs if anything widen it, and so many celebrated P'ton traditions narrow it much more. (singing groups, anyone?)

Off to take a few deep breaths. . .

[exlurker]

Originally posted by madmax
Exlurker.

Do you go to Princeton? I think a girl was found dead in a dorm there a couple of weeks ago. I was wondering what the story was.

The last I read about the death of Melissa Huang, the Princeton sophomore who was found dead in her dorm room, was that the preliminary autopsy results were inconclusive. Apparently the police have ruled out foul play. No suicide note was found, from what I've read. It may be weeks before the cause of death is determined and released to the media, so you may want to check Google News from time to time.

[XOMichelle]

Originally posted by Janerz222
Grrr... After I simmer down and collect my thoughts, I'll be writing a letter to the Prince and President Tilghman and Dean Deignan. (I am a Theta alumna and a Princeton alumna.)

I'll post a copy of my letter on this thread, in case it's of interest to anyone.

A few quick points, from my undergraduate experience at P'ton: the eating clubs lose NOTHING from having GLOs on campus. Almost all GLO members also belong to eating clubs. Don't get me started on the issue of narrowing your social circle that early in your P'ton career - GLOs if anything widen it, and so many celebrated P'ton traditions narrow it much more. (singing groups, anyone?)

Off to take a few deep breaths. . .

I applaud you efforts to keep GLO's on your campus. I went to Stanford, and I think the University gains a lot from a Greek presence, and the students (who are prone to shutting themselves in libraries to study) gain even more.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Rudey
Probably because certain alumni of certain clubs feel threatened.

-Rudey That may have some truth to it. There is a large amount of cross membership between the GLOs and the eating clubs. There is no immediate threat to the eating clubs if the greek system grows. Alumni who belonged to both will probably have greater allegiance to their GLOs than to their eating clubs. That may now be evident, and this may be a reaction to a diminished ability of the eating clubs to raise money.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by adpiucf
Would it not behoove the Greeks to go to deferred rush in a gesture of good will relations with the university? I don't think so. Why should the GLO's give up position to the school when the school is hostile to them?

The best thing that the GLOs can do is to grow, develop their alumni, and then have their alumni approach Princeton's Board of Trustees with a united front.Originally posted by ktsnake
Is there data out there that really suggests that all fraternities and sororities are harmful to a student's academic success at Princeton?I doubt that there is any data, either way. The GLOs are underground so its not easy to compile grades.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Janerz222
Grrr... After I simmer down and collect my thoughts, I'll be writing a letter to the Prince and President Tilghman and Dean Deignan. (I am a Theta alumna and a Princeton alumna.)

I'll post a copy of my letter on this thread, in case it's of interest to anyone.

A few quick points, from my undergraduate experience at P'ton: the eating clubs lose NOTHING from having GLOs on campus. Almost all GLO members also belong to eating clubs. Don't get me started on the issue of narrowing your social circle that early in your P'ton career - GLOs if anything widen it, and so many celebrated P'ton traditions narrow it much more. (singing groups, anyone?)

Off to take a few deep breaths. . . How organized are the alumni of the fraternities and sororities? That's where you'll make real headway. The GLOs have been on Princeton for about 20 years now, so the alumni should be entering their donation years. If the GLO alumni are organized, they should bundle their donations together for a few years, to show the school the financial clout of GLO alumni. After a few years of doing this, if the school is not willing to sit down and talk, in good faith, the GLO alumni should with hold all donations for a year.

[wrigley]

Isn't Greek life at Princeton a fairly recent addition to their campus? A friends brother graduated from there in '88 and all he talked about were the eating clubs.

Perhaps the Administration is feeling the pressure from the older wealthy alumni who donate and who may not agree with Greek Life's influence on campus.

How can the chapters exist but not be recognized by the university?

[Janerz222]

PhiPsiRuss,
I actually think more Princetonians feel a closer tie to their eating clubs after graduation (than to their GLO), partly because of the physical fact of the clubhouse (GLOs aren't housed). My gut is that the majority (not all) of Princeton Greek alums feel loyalty and ties to their _chapter_ but don't feel huge ties to their inter/national organizations. In terms of monetary giving as alumni, I think people are more moved to give to a physical institution they can enjoy when they return to campus and relive the sites, sounds, even stale-beer smells that were so much a part of their Princeton days.
This is just my opinion, as a Princeton alum. I really don't think the clubs lose or will lose anything from the GLOs. Actually, I think the GLOs in many ways reinforce loyalty to the eating clubs, as often many members of the same GLO will join the same eating club (effectively doubling those members' loyalty to the eating club).

Wrigley,
The fraternities were there very early in Princeton's history, then started to come back in the early 80's. Theta was the first sorority there, founded in 1983. We didn't have a lot of visibility until Pi Phi joined us in 1990/91 and we founded the Panhellenic. While non-recognition definitely presented some hurdles in the early years (no access to mailing lists, having to pay for meeting facilities, etc.), the lack of University recognition actually works quite well. It means a lot of work on the part of alum advisers and the college Panhellenic (I can't speak for the fraternities), but a lot of autonomy.

[madmax]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
How organized are the alumni of the fraternities and sororities? That's where you'll make real headway. The GLOs have been on Princeton for about 20 years now, so the alumni should be entering their donation years. If the GLO alumni are organized, they should bundle their donations together for a few years, to show the school the financial clout of GLO alumni. After a few years of doing this, if the school is not willing to sit down and talk, in good faith, the GLO alumni should with hold all donations for a year.


The first fraternities at Princeton started in the mid 1800's but they were always overshadowed by the eating clubs. Eric Conard was probably there so he might have some insight.

[madmax]

Janerz222.

Where are the eating clubs? I drive through Princeton for work and Im curious what they look like. How do you get to them from Nassau St?

[Janerz222]

Ok, long post ahead. . . Here's the letter I just submitted to the editor of the Daily Princetonian and snail mailed to the university adminstrators. (I did include my full name, class year, and mailing address, which I'll obviously not include here.)


18 September 2004
Dear Editor,

So, Dean Deignan and President Tilghman think that Greek-letter organizations “prematurely narrow” students’ “circles of acquaintances and experiences” [Frosh cautioned against going Greek, September 16, 2004]. I’m curious–did incoming students and their parents also receive admonitions about joining Princeton’s athletic teams, singing groups, and religious or political organizations?

Freshmen, what a relief it must be to know that the University has claimed the sole right to narrow those circles for you by assigning you to a residential college!

As an alumna of both Princeton and Kappa Alpha Theta women’s fraternity, I’d like to disabuse our current adminstration of such notions.

Belonging to a Greek-letter organization does not remove you from the Princeton experience–it can involve you more fully into it, and into the world beyond FitzRandolph Gate. Far from narrowing their members’ social circles, fraternities and sororities offer the chance for friendship and support from members of all 4 undergraduate classes, all residential colleges, all departments of academic study, every imaginable creative and athletic discipline, as well as varied ethnicities, religions, and political beliefs. Greek letter organizations are often at their best at institutions like Princeton, where strength of academic purpose; ethnic, religious, political, and geographical diversity; and individual involvement in myriad interests and activities are the hallmark of the student body. I would argue that there is no other organization on campus that brings its members as much opportunity to experience the diversity of Princeton than a fraternity or sorority. Not narrowed to a particular philosophy, not focused on one talent, not limited to underclassmen or upperclassmen, not bounded by one academic area– Greek-letter organizations encompass them all, and through personal relationships, their members can experience them all.

It’s fine with Dean Deignan that Susie Freshman join a singing group that will consume her for four years in an incredibly tight-knit, exclusive, single-focus, and insanely small group of women, but the Dean will proactively encourage her NOT to even research Kappa Kappa Gamma or Delta Sigma Theta because she’ll be “limiting” her Princeton experience? (Let’s ignore the fact that most fraternities and sororities have multi-faceted membership programs which encompass academic success, community service, personal development, and leadership training as well as hundreds of thousands of dollars in scholarships and grants for undergraduates and graduates.) I must be getting old, because I just can’t see the logic. Forgive my cynicism, but I don’t think we’re hearing the real issue the administration has with fraternities and sororities. Is it the “not invented here” mentality that something which didn’t originate at Princeton and exists beyond it is not worthy?

Kappa Alpha Theta brought things to my Princeton experience for which I’m eternally grateful: some of my best friends (but not all of them); extremely challenging and rewarding leadership opportunities; close relationships with local alumnae advisers of all ages; and yes, some of the best memories and events of my four years at Old Nassau. Furthermore, as this year’s freshmen will learn in 4 short years, life does and must involve people and ideas and institutions outside of Princeton, New Jersey. Theta has done nothing but add to the benefits of my Princeton education. Moving across the country immediately after graduation, I found a large group of Thetas, alumnae from schools across the US and Canada and of all ages, welcoming me. I have held rewarding and challenging leadership positions within an international organization of over 150,000 women. I continue to learn and grow and benefit because of becoming a Theta at Princeton 15 years ago.

The Princeton I know and cherish was not in the business of saving her students from their own decisions. It makes me sad to think that is where she seems to be now. To be certain, students face many new situations and opportunities during their Princeton years. The process of making decisions and choices is arguably more important than the decisions and choices themselves. Even those choices which we would change in hindsight teach us more than we can gain from a classroom or lab. The Princeton of my youth allowed me to revel in, grapple with, deal with the consequences of, and ultimately learn from my own choices.

Had I allowed Princeton to decide for me that Theta was “too narrow” a social circle, I would not have met one of my best friends. We’re not in the same graduating class. She’s Jewish, I’m Catholic. She was an engineer, I studied art history. She lived in Butler (poor thing), and I in Mathey. Theta is the only thing that brought us together at Princeton and allowed us to get to know each other well, and my life would be less without having her in it. Nor would I have been challenged by the feminist, two years my senior, whose views I found remarkably radical (and which, surprisingly, are very close the views I have now). I would not have met the amazing women, from college undergrads to octogenarians, who have taught me, challenged me, supported me, and become cherished friends throughout my years of volunteering in the leadership of Kappa Alpha Theta since graduation.

Theta only added to my Princeton experience, and I am far from unique in that regard. I would sincerely encourage Dean Deignan, President Tilghman, and other members of the administration to educate themselves about the national and international Greek-letter organizations represented at Princeton–their aims, histories, spheres of influence–as well as the local histories of the Princeton chapters. I urge them to involve Princeton sorority alumnae and fraternity alumni in their research and discussions. I know they will be surprised both at our numbers and at the high regard we have for our organizations. Being a part of our organizations has enhanced the Princeton experience for most of us and has made our memories fonder–and our pockets deeper come Annual Giving season.

I, for one, will be considering supporting Theta with more dollars than Princeton come Annual Giving time. I’d rather support an organization that strives to empower her members, not make decisions for them.

[IvySpice]

what gives the admin the right to tell freshmen to do something

Well, it's a private school -- they can tell the freshmen to do whatever they want, including what church to join, if it came to that. The wisdom of that decision is open to debate, but there's no question that it is their prerogative to do it if they choose.

I think the attack on Greek groups, but not eating clubs, is just plain old pragmatism. The impression I get is that the administration is no fan of the eating clubs, either, but that it is unwilling/unable to tackle a system so ingrained and that involves such an overwhelming percentage of alumni. They want to move toward the Harvard/Yale 4-year residential college model, which isn't terribly compatible with the eating club system, and which may slowly starve it to death (they hope). They can't take that approach with Greek groups, so they're taking direct aim instead.
________
Om611 engine (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_OM611_engine)

[Janerz222]

madmax,

All of the clubs except Terrace are on Prospect Avenue (affectionately known as The Street). Prospect is off Washington, two blocks from Nassau. Terrace is on Washington, just past Prospect.

You can find a campus map here (http://www.princeton.edu/Siteware/Visitors.shtml). The clubs are the buildings on Prospect in white on the map: Campus, Tower, Colonial, Quad, Cap & Gown, Tiger Inn (TI), Ivy, Cottage, Cloister, and Charter (plus Terrace on Washington).

[Tom Earp]

Could not help myself but send a response to the Editor in The Greek Bashing as it were.


Regarding 'Letters to the Editor' (Friday, September 17, 2004):

I for one having been a member of the Greek community for 40 years am appaled at the blatant disregard of the good that Greek Organizations do for not only the members of each, but the Campus and charitable organizations of the commumity.

It seems That Princeton holds itself above many great Institutions that have began a change on their campi with regards to Greeks.

Does Princeton deem to hold itself in higher esteem than many other finer Colleges of Education?

Does Princeton feel that the only thing to be derived from College is grades and a diploma alone?

What Greek Organizations do create is create organizational skills, running and operating a group of people much as running a business or interacting with people after College.

The bonds made in Greek Organizations are much stronger than any College bonds can ever be.

Thomas G. Earp
Lambda Chi Alpha
Lambda Chi Chapter # 1


Maybe they ought to call Princeton Snob U?

God, Ostriches dont have their heads so far down in the sand.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Tom Earp

The bonds made in Greek Organizations are much stronger than any College bonds can ever be.


Not always true. My bonds to Brown are stronger (as I've learned recently in the face of tragedy) than my Alpha Chi Omega bonds were, are, and ever will be.

If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience.

[Glitter650]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
[B
If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience. [/B]

I would be devastated if my college were to disband greek life. My experience as a phi sig basically was my college experience. I transferred, never lived on campus, and attended a largely commuter campus, so meeting people was difficult and I felt out of the loop of the university. My friends and sisters in my chapter (and my friends from other chapters) were the ones that opened my campus to me because they could tell me about things that I may not have heard of otherwise, for example my sister who lived in the dorm always knew about the free sneak preview movies that come to campus sometimes becuase they always posted the info in the dorm first, another sister always dragged me to athletic events and such. It also made it easier to be inovolved in other things on campus because I always had sisters supporting me.

[IvySpice]

It seems That Princeton holds itself above many great Institutions that have began a change on their campi with regards to Greeks.
Does Princeton deem to hold itself in higher esteem than many other finer Colleges of Education?


Hee hee. I'm sorry, Tom, I had to giggle at this...if you've spent any time at Princeton or Harvard or Yale, you'll know that the answer is HELL YES, and it's no secret. The administrators at these schools firmly believe that what their school is offering is extremely special and perhaps peerless. The "many great institutions" you refer to do not include the small handful of institutions that Princeton sees as its competition, all of which are more or less hostile to Greeks and moving further in that direction. The fact that many other excellent universities thrive in harmony with enormous and powerful Greek systems just isn't relevant to them; they think drawing a parallel between the University of Illinois and Princeton is like comparing apples to oranges, or maybe even apples to diamonds. Frankly, chances are good that the university decision-makers we're talking about would be horrified at the thought of Princeton becoming more like Penn or Cornell (Ivy League schools with large, housed Greek populations).

Note: I'm not talking about the student population here; the students are all over the map about this. But no question, the administrators think they're the creme de la creme, and the newspaper editors are going to have a bit of a laugh over your shocked reaction to that fact.
________
Extreme Q Herbal Vaporizer Review (http://vaporizers.net)

[Tom Earp]

IvySpice, I hope they have a Huge laugh, but also hope that they realize that there are many of us who have had the pleasure to go through and become Members of Greek Organizations.

Opening doors because of a Schools name can be beneficial, but book learning doesnt make a whole person.

One has to learn many other things, such as how to work with and within a people structure.

Guess I am glad I did not attend a Snob U type School!:cool:

[pinkflamingo]

Yes, it's true...I lead a very sheltered life. What the heck is an eating club?

[Janerz222]

In a nutshell:

Eating clubs are unique to P'ton. They are housed clubs (only the officers live in) where upperclassmen eat meals, have parties, study, hang out, etc. All are now co-ed, some are selective (the rush process is called bicker, and you only bicker one club), the others are by lottery. Members typically join early in the spring of your sophomore year (though a few join later), and are a full member junior and senior years.

[Diamond Delta]

Originally posted by 33girl
adpiucf, I mean this in the nicest of ways, but you had a real Muffy Tepperman moment there :D

I had forgotten the GLOs there were not officially recognized. Let's look at it this way - what gives the admin the right to tell freshmen to do something (and use money and time to do so) that isn't officially part of the university? I mean, what if they said "don't get a library card at the town of Princeton library" or "don't join the local chapter of the KKK/Jews for Jesus/whatever"? How about if they advised the students on which local churches they should or should not worship at?

If they want to keep denying Greek life's impact, they're just going to look dumber and dumber. I'm not in favor of first semester rush either, but as far as this situation, if they don't get anything for doing it, why would they?

I didn't think most fraternities and sororities would even set up a chapter at a university that didn't allow those groups? How do you even begin to have grade minimums or even student membership requirements if the organization is not even, technically, a student organization? Hmmm, very interesting. What about panhellenic. Can they still froce two or more sororities to have a panhellenic system if they are not even recognized by the school? And, yes, aren;t the eating clubs the same thing in a way? Why are those OK? Is it just because of the traditions?

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Diamond Delta
How do you even begin to have grade minimums or even student membership requirements if the organization is not even, technically, a student organization?Who cares about that stuff when the school is Princeton? Most of the students have good grades, and most of the students are involved in other student activities.

"Student membership requirements?" Princeton students are not going to rush students from the local community college. The average Princeton student in the bottom 25% of that school will have a more successful profesional life than a student on the top 10% of a 4th tier school. These kids are smart and dynamic.

[Janerz222]

Diamond Delta,

A few points, based solely on my experience at Princeton (not sure how applicable they are to other campuses):

-as soon as the second NPC group was established (Pi Beta Phi), we set up a college Panhellenic. With a lot of guidance from Theta's and Pi Phi's local advisers, Pi Phi's based chapter consultant (who became a very good friend of mine!), and both orgs' international officers and NPC delegates, we did it all on our own. (I was the founding Panhel president, so a lot of it is near-and-dear to my heart.) The NPC delegations and NPC extension committee are very cooperative and on top of such situations. It's not happening in a vacuum. NPC is a phenomenal organization, and they regional college panhellenic advisers to help.

-situations like this require a lot of work on the part of local alumnae advisers and the collegians. We had no Greek adviser, obviously, so we really were creating and running the Panhellenic and all aspects of it ourselves. The best, most useful leadership training (trial by fire) experience of my life (and one I didn't seek out or initially want!). None of us had heard the word Panhellenic until my junior year!

-As an alumna, I've had some peripheral involvement with Santa Clara - their Greek system is relatively-recently "unrecognized". They have a FABULOUS volunteer alumna Panhellenic adviser. I wish I could remember which NPC she's an alumna of (not one of the 3 with chapters currently at Santa Clara) because she has done a tremendous job, just because it was there to be done and she wanted to help.

-grades, etc, were submitted voluntarily by our members. A small downside is that we really weren't included in some Theta-wide awards for, say, being above All-Sorority-Average or things like that, since they just didn't exist. I am unaware of any sharing/comparing of GPAs between groups. It just wasn't an issue to anybody. (I also know, for instance, that Stanford forbids its GLOs from getting grades, so they're in the same boat.)

-Hazing, etc. is just monitored by the organizations' advisers, consultants, and HQs.

I will say that at the time, when we were the only NPC sorority on campus (I recall that there were 1-2 NPHCs at the time), not being recognized did result in many hurdles for us as we tried to grow: we had no access to student lists, addresses, etc.; prospective students were told that there were no fraternities/sororities at Princeton; we were not allowed to post things on campus bulletin boards; we had to rent any on-campus facility we wanted to use for meetings or events; we held chapter meetings in rented classrooms and initiations and other ritual events in alumnae homes and/or church basements; and others. (I didn't even know there was a Theta chapter there until spring of my freshman year, and I was a legacy!) However, the upside (which in hindsight was considerable) was that the university had no say in what we did (other than as individual students--we were of course bound by student conduct regulations) and could not put extra restrictions/requirements on us beyond Theta's requirements. Because there was a screaming need for what we offered at Princeton, we grew and grew, Pi Phi flourished, and the system grew from there.

Having said all that, being unrecognized not an ideal situation. But, if the inter/national organization is committed to it, and you have some good local advisers, it can be worth it!

Thank for indulging my multiple trips down Memory Lane. . .

[blueGBI]

What GLOs are at Princeton?


(almost went to Penn, another ivy, but didn't because she needed to get away from home)

[Unregistered-]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Not always true. My bonds to Brown are stronger (as I've learned recently in the face of tragedy) than my Alpha Chi Omega bonds were, are, and ever will be.

If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience.

Ditto.

I love my Fraternity and what she stands for and will be a loyal member for life.

But I've been bleeding the Hawai`i Green & White much, much longer. :) AGD didn't define my college experience...my friends (both Greek and non -- and I had more non Friends), my profs, my co-workers, the student union cafeteria guys, and the bartender/stir fry cooks at Manoa Gardens did.

[DolphinChicaDDD]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Maybe they ought to call Princeton Snob U?


Those of us poor shmucks at Jersey state schools already do; love my sisters in that chapter, but yeah, uuuh, stockton is different then princeton.

As for sororites (well, NPC) I belive: KKG, KAT, DDD, Pi Phi. Someone feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

[33girl]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience.

I'd be sad if ANY school decided to disband Greek life - simply because it takes away a great opportunity from the students.

I do understand what you're trying to say, but it just comes across like you don't give a crap and that you got nothing from your sorority membership. We've had several chapters on my campus close since I've graduated and even those people who you'd think couldn't care less were sad about it.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Maybe they ought to call Princeton Snob U?

Naaaaaah, that's Washington and Lee.

[exlurker]

Just as a supplement to janer22's information about the eating clubs, I thought I'd mention that the September 20, 2004 Daily Princetonian has two -- that's right, two -- stories about the clubs:

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/20/news/10768.shtml

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/20/news/10764.shtml

Of possible interest in light of concerns about the attitude of the administration toward Greek organizations is a quote from a club member about a recent activity of most of the clubs: "this isn't costing us anything. [Princeton President] Shirley Tilghman is footing the bill."

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Diamond Delta
Point taken about Princeton. However, there are other sorority and fraternity chapters at schools not as elite as Princeton and they too have no University recognition. I was really aiming my question at the general idea of it all, not specifically the Princeton situation. But I can see why you posted what you did. Valid points about this specific instance.

But what about the other schools with these kinds of chapters. Anyone know how they handle it? What is their nationals take on it and how do they help to enforce the policies like student membership, grades, hazing, panhellenic requirements etc.? I would look at two scenarios. There is one where a greek system exists, and then loses recognition. Most GLOs will maintain chapters at these schools, unless the climate and/or chapter dramatically deteriorates.

Then there are schools that prohibit GLOs, have none, and then the interest to start a system emerges. In this scenario we have schools like Amherst, Brandeis, Georgetown, Harvard, and Princeton that now have greek systems. All of these schools, except for Brandeis, had greek systems at one time. Of these schools, all had banned social GLOs and had none before GLOs began to reemerge. There has also been the possible emergence of a single Delta Psi chapter at Williams, as well as unsuccessful colonization efforts at Fordham, Notre Dame and (maybe) West Point over the last 15 years. GLOs are willing to roll the dice on these schools because they are prestigious. These schools produce far more alumni who pad "famous alumni" lists. When alumni from top tier schools get involved with their GLOs at the national level, they are (on average) more effective than other leaders from lesser schools. This makes an entire GLO better.

So, in the case where an underground greek system is emerging, the caliber of the school is evaluated. Janerz222 can let us know if her chapter provided Theta with grades, but I wouldn't be surprised if Theta looked the other way.

As far as other schools go, my fraternity currently has our Massachusetts Beta chapter at Brandeis. They are a great bunch of guys. Brandeis University's charter prohibits fraternities. The greek system is about 15 years old. We've been chartered there for 11 years. Aside from the ability to check grades and a mutually supportive relationship with the school, there is little difference between being chartered at Brandeis or Brown.

Student membership requirements are not an issue at this caliber of schools. The students are extremely busy with other activities on campus, as well as studying. Many of the students at these schools live their collegiate lives on campus, and don't have the time to make the effort to associate with students at other schools. These schools also have few, if any, part time students.

GPA is just not a big issue at these types of schools. The students who go there already have great time management skills. Some lose their focus and fail out, but not at the same rate of lesser schools. I don't know what our Brandeis chapter's GPA is. It could be 0.8. I do know that most of their brothers go onto grad school, so they must be doing something right in the classroom.

With regard to risk management issues, they face similar issues that chapters at other elite schools face. Risk management issues are not enforceable at Brandeis, except that the school likes to let the Waltham police know where partys will be. Schools like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Stanford, Swarthmore, and W&L (and others) basically look the other way. Having greek system recognition at elite private schools is no guarantee for risk management compliance. These schools have alumni who make tons of money, donate tons of money, and like to have a few beers when they visit campus. Hazing at these schools, when it occurs, is not questioned by the administrations if specific incidents are not known.

It comes down to a basic cost/benefit analysis. Its worth chartering at Princeton and other top tier schools.

[TSteven]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
...as well as unsuccessful colonization efforts at Fordham, Notre Dame and (maybe) West Point over the last 15 years.

Would you happen to know what groups tried to colonize at these schools?

Frankly, I would be quite surprised - in a good way mind you - if any of the service academies were to allow GLOs. Not so much Notre Dame or Fordham.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
With regard to risk management issues, they face similar issues that chapters at other elite schools face. Risk management issues are not enforceable at Brandeis, except that the school likes to let the Waltham police know where partys will be. Schools like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Stanford, Swarthmore, and W&L (and others) basically look the other way. Having greek system recognition at elite private schools is no guarantee for risk management compliance. These schools have alumni who make tons of money, donate tons of money, and like to have a few beers when they visit campus. Hazing at these schools, when it occurs, is not questioned by the administrations if specific incidents are not known.

Wow--you just summed up W&L. Good job, Russ. I'm actually impressed because very few people seem able to understand the situation here.

[33girl]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
So, in the case where an underground greek system is emerging, the caliber of the school is evaluated. Janerz222 can let us know if her chapter provided Theta with grades, but I wouldn't be surprised if Theta looked the other way.

Way to show support of your fellow Greeks - by accusing them of throwing out their chapter standards.

And as far as alums from top tier schools being more effective leaders on a national level and making the GLO "better" - well, we just saw an alum from a top tier school basically saying she wouldn't give a shit if her school's whole system croaked. Would you pick her for an alum position over someone who went to Western Illinois simply because she went to Brown? (Munchkin, this is not picking on you - just using a very apropos example) Maybe this is true of fraternities, but it's not true of sororities.

[Munchkin03]

Well, chances are the Ivy alum won't go out for a major alum position.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by 33girl
Way to show support of your fellow Greeks - by accusing them of throwing out their chapter standards.

And as far as alums from top tier schools being more effective leaders on a national level and making the GLO "better" - well, we just saw an alum from a top tier school basically saying she wouldn't give a shit if her school's whole system croaked. Would you pick her for an alum position over someone who went to Western Illinois simply because she went to Brown? (Munchkin, this is not picking on you - just using a very apropos example) Maybe this is true of fraternities, but it's not true of sororities.

I think people care if the system croaks and I think they would be supportive, but I don't know alumni of too many schools that think that greek life is the end all, be all of their undergraduate experience.

Truthfully, I don't know what it's like to tail-gate, I don't know how it feels being with all your alumni in the same stadium and using the same cheer, and I also don't know what it's like to be in a huge 200 man chapter and have so much of my student life center around being Greek. Thus my experience and loyalty, as it is for many others, is to the school.

Regarding grades at the chapter, I have a feeling that people won't push them as much at a school like Princeton. It's not saying that the standard should be thrown out, but perhaps GPA plays less of a role on this campus and perhaps there already is a standard - entrace into the school. But then again, I'm not in a sorority and I don't know if these are things you girls do at every chapter across the nation.

-Rudey

[33girl]

Oh Rudey, I completely understand what you and Munchkin are saying. I think it's the same concept of feeling more for your chapter than the sorority/fraternity as a whole. I was just pointing out the fallacy that solely because someone comes from a school with higher admission standards, they will improve the GLO as a whole. That's kind of like if someone gets a high school coaching position simply because they played at Penn State instead of, say, Clarion. Just because Penn State is in the Big 10 doesn't mean the person will know their ass from their elbow as far as motivating and directing kids.

[breathesgelatin]

My chapter usually has the #1, #2 or #3 GPA in Pi Phi every term and we usually battle it out with the chapters at Stanford and Yale for that. I'm trying to remember if the Princeton chapter's grades are listed in the Arrow. I feel like they are maybe.

Anyway, the above shows that chapters at the elite Universities usually have better grades anyway. Maybe that's grad inflation, but who knows?

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by 33girl
Way to show support of your fellow Greeks - by accusing them of throwing out their chapter standards.Thanks for putting words in mouth. I'm not suggesting that GLOs at schools like Princeton are throwing out chapter standards. I do believe that GPA and membership rules are superfluous because, as Rudey pointed out, the school's admissions office (as well as the campus culture) has already taken care of these concerns. These standards are implicit, and don't need oversight.

[gogoaphi]

Originally posted by Janerz222
Diamond Delta,

-As an alumna, I've had some peripheral involvement with Santa Clara - their Greek system is relatively-recently "unrecognized". They have a FABULOUS volunteer alumna Panhellenic adviser. I wish I could remember which NPC she's an alumna of (not one of the 3 with chapters currently at Santa Clara) because she has done a tremendous job, just because it was there to be done and she wanted to help.


I have VERY direct involvement with Santa Clara and our TRULY REMARKABLE VOLUNTEER Panhellenic Advisor is a member of Delta Delta Delta! She's really been an integral part of our being able to build a cooperative and thriving greek community in Santa Clara!!!

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Could not help myself but send a response to the Editor in The Greek Bashing as it were.


Regarding 'Letters to the Editor' (Friday, September 17, 2004):

I for one having been a member of the Greek community for 40 years am appaled at the blatant disregard of the good that Greek Organizations do for not only the members of each, but the Campus and charitable organizations of the commumity.

It seems That Princeton holds itself above many great Institutions that have began a change on their campi with regards to Greeks.

Does Princeton deem to hold itself in higher esteem than many other finer Colleges of Education?

Does Princeton feel that the only thing to be derived from College is grades and a diploma alone?

What Greek Organizations do create is create organizational skills, running and operating a group of people much as running a business or interacting with people after College.

The bonds made in Greek Organizations are much stronger than any College bonds can ever be.

Thomas G. Earp
Lambda Chi Alpha
Lambda Chi Chapter # 1


Maybe they ought to call Princeton Snob U?

God, Ostriches dont have their heads so far down in the sand.

I don't think P-ton is going to be very impressed by your English and Grammatical skills, Earp.

I go to Snobby Catholic U. :cool:

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Well, chances are the Ivy alum won't go out for a major alum position.

An Ivy alumna is quite involved with my sorority in both our local alumnae association and internationally. :)

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
An Ivy alumna is quite involved with my sorority in both our local alumnae association and internationally. :)

That's why I said, "chances are."

In my experience, which comes from not only being a collegiate at an Ivy chapter, but having helped out with another, there is not nearly as much alumnae involvement than at other schools.

But, what do I know?

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Thanks for putting words in mouth. I'm not suggesting that GLOs at schools like Princeton are throwing out chapter standards. I do believe that GPA and membership rules are superfluous because, as Rudey pointed out, the school's admissions office (as well as the campus culture) has already taken care of these concerns. These standards are implicit, and don't need oversight.

EXACTLY.

We used to laugh at the national requirement that stated that the minimum to rush was 2.0, and to stay in was a 1.5. Anyone who had a 1.5 GPA would have more to worry about than getting kicked out of their sorority--by that point, they would have been KICKED OUT OF SCHOOL.

Basically, my alma mater's academic standards were (and still are) higher than the national organization's.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
EXACTLY.

We used to laugh at the national requirement that stated that the minimum to rush was 2.0, and to stay in was a 1.5. Anyone who had a 1.5 GPA would have more to worry about than getting kicked out of their sorority--by that point, they would have been KICKED OUT OF SCHOOL.

Wait.... do some colleges not have an automatic rule? As in, at some places, you're not kicked out of school if you GPA gets too low? Or am I misinterpreting your remark?

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by breathesgelatin
Wait.... do some colleges not have an automatic rule? As in, at some places, you're not kicked out of school if you GPA gets too low? Or am I misinterpreting your remark?

Yes, we had a rule about that. But, our threshhold was higher than that of our national organization, and I think NPC for that matter. Therefore, the organization's standards were lower than our own.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Yes, we had a rule about that. But, our threshhold was higher than that of our national organization, and I think NPC for that matter. Therefore, the organization's standards were lower than our own.

We have an automatic rule too. I just wasn't aware some colleges didn't have it.

I don't know the specifics of our automatic rule.... We've never had anyone have a problem with it.

[Tom Earp]

Hm GP you read my email to them. Oh yes made a copy on it here. Maybe just a snide innuendo for the egg heads? Oh maybe self inguldgent poops of scooper fame?

Well, maybe they are scratching their heads? Maybe they are thinking. Oh, I guess that is not any thing for Those type of Schools, maybe not Holier Than Thou as Yours is, but still egotistical to the same point?

Just give me a good old public school where you are a name not a number as in much larger schools that seemingly having THE PRESTIGE of us poor State Schools such as mine and many others.

A school Degree only gets you in the door, one must prove ones self in the real world.:)

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Hm GP you read my email to them. Oh yes made a copy on it here. Maybe just a snide innuendo for the egg heads? Oh maybe self inguldgent poops of scooper fame?

Well, maybe they are scratching their heads? Maybe they are thinking. Oh, I guess that is not any thing for Those type of Schools, maybe not Holier Than Thou as Yours is, but still egotistical to the same point?

Just give me a good old public school where you are a name not a number as in much larger schools that seemingly having THE PRESTIGE of us poor State Schools such as mine and many others.

A school Degree only gets you in the door, one must prove ones self in the real world.:)

Um my public school was larger than my private school so good try there. And I already have job offers, so I don't think I'm worried about proving myself in the real world.

I'm just saying, Princeton doesn't care what 90% of this country thinks - and they don't have to.

[Tom Earp]

Fantabulious!:cool:

Still stand by if you have not been in the real world, Diploma, gets you in the door, but job approval has to be earned.

What does your public school have to do with anything?

Did you wear uniforms?

Johnny Dares in KC has its waitresses wear them. So and your point is?

It is strictly a White Trailer Trash Rock and Roll Bar in the hip party zone of KC!

PlaZee rest the claws from may already scratched backed. Or backside!;)

[exlurker]

Just a quick hijack back to the topic of Princeton's attitude toward Greeks --

The Tuesday, September 21 issue of the student paper contains an editorial advocating deferred Greek recruitment. Although the editorial has some positive things to say about Greek life, it supports the position of Princeton's president that fall recruitment is not a good idea.

See

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/21/opinion/10779.shtml

End of hijack. :)

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Um my public school was larger than my private school so good try there. And I already have job offers, so I don't think I'm worried about proving myself in the real world.

WTF, mates?! Aren't most private schools (with the exception of NYU, which has 40,000 students) smaller than public schools?

Most of GC doesn't give a rat's ass what Earp thinks--do you really think one of the nation's--if not the world's--most prestigious institutions of higher learning cares?

[33girl]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Thanks for putting words in mouth. I'm not suggesting that GLOs at schools like Princeton are throwing out chapter standards. I do believe that GPA and membership rules are superfluous because, as Rudey pointed out, the school's admissions office (as well as the campus culture) has already taken care of these concerns. These standards are implicit, and don't need oversight.

Then you should have said that instead of saying "I wouldn't be surprised if Theta looked the other way." That implies Theta was doing something shady and didn't care what their grades were like as long as they had a chapter at Princeton. Sorry I misinterpreted.

Re the Ivy alum being active in Cream's sorority, I think you must also consider that D Phi E has a large concentration of alums from the northeast. :)

Oh, and as far as public vs. private, Tom doesn't mean Penn State vs. Princeton, he means North Adams vs Princeton - i.e. he is talking about former teachers' colleges. U Penn is private and it's certainly bigger than Clarion, Slippery Rock etc. Does that answers your WTF mates?

[Rudey]

Why should Greeks defer their recruitment? Will other student organizations, clubs, eating clubs defer as well?

It seems to me that it's only sororities that would so easily accept deferred rush.

-Rudey

[IvySpice]

Eating club recruitment is (very) deferred to sophomore spring, which is another reason the administration doesn't fight it so hard. It also offers guaranteed placement.

No, other clubs would never be asked to defer, but the fact is that the administration views purely social clubs differently. They view political, athletic, artistic, and affinity clubs as benefiting the university as a whole, while (non-NPHC) GLOs only benefit their members. Further, they think that it's a very different thing for a freshman to come in and immediately be categorized by a selective arts group as a quality or substandard dancer than to be categorized by a GLO as a quality or substandard friend.

Not saying whether they're right or wrong, but that's their view.
________
LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Hm GP you read my email to them. Oh yes made a copy on it here. Maybe just a snide innuendo for the egg heads? Oh maybe self inguldgent poops of scooper fame?

Well, maybe they are scratching their heads? Maybe they are thinking. Oh, I guess that is not any thing for Those type of Schools, maybe not Holier Than Thou as Yours is, but still egotistical to the same point?

Just give me a good old public school where you are a name not a number as in much larger schools that seemingly having THE PRESTIGE of us poor State Schools such as mine and many others.

A school Degree only gets you in the door, one must prove ones self in the real world.:)

Usually state schools are larger than private schools...I went to a large private school, but I think that is more the exception than the rule.

I think every school has to be egotistical to a point - how can you get students to apply/attend if you're not the "best" at something?

[33girl]

Originally posted by IvySpice
Eating club recruitment is (very) deferred to sophomore spring, which is another reason the administration doesn't fight it so hard. It also offers guaranteed placement.

Do you mean the clubs that don't still do the "bicker" thing?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by IvySpice
Eating club recruitment is (very) deferred to sophomore spring, which is another reason the administration doesn't fight it so hard. It also offers guaranteed placement.

No, other clubs would never be asked to defer, but the fact is that the administration views purely social clubs differently. They view political, athletic, artistic, and affinity clubs as benefiting the university as a whole, while (non-NPHC) GLOs only benefit their members. Further, they think that it's a very different thing for a freshman to come in and immediately be categorized by a selective arts group as a quality or substandard dancer than to be categorized by a GLO as a quality or substandard friend.

Not saying whether they're right or wrong, but that's their view.

I understand that's their view and I think that this is something that GLOs don't have to accept. I don't mean that legally. I mean that I'm sure that if they pushed and pushed, after a while it would become accepted.

As for social clubs, eating clubs, tomb societies, etc., not all guarantee you a spot do they? And I don't know how Harvard or Princeton work really, but from what I've heard of tomb societies there really isn't a rush period; you are judged actually for that first year or however long, aren't guaranteed a spot anywhere, and there is no rush.

-Rudey

[IvySpice]

Do you mean the clubs that don't still do the "bicker" thing?

Five clubs still bicker, but you're guaranteed a place in an eating club if you want one, and if you prefer a sign-in club, you're very likely to get your first choice (and it's random chance if you don't). As we were discussing on another thread, GLO recruitment is by necessity mutually selective and with very rare exceptions they don't have to take you.

And I don't know how Harvard or Princeton work really, but from what I've heard of tomb societies there really isn't a rush period

You may be thinking of secret societies at Yale, which meet in "tombs." They are for seniors only, and they pick ("tap")whomever they want among the juniors to form a very small class for the following year. These clubs are co-ed and thus don't violate any anti-discrimination policies. The real rush process at Yale is a cappella rush. Harvard, in contrast, has final clubs, which are basically local fraternities/men's drinking clubs. Rush, or "punch," is by invitation only. The university has a bitterly antagonistic relationship with these clubs; it views them as a much greater and more immediate problem than the GLOs, and it would do almost anything to get rid of them if it could. You aren't guaranteed a spot in either system, but the university certainly doesn't grant them any favor vs. GLOs.
________
MERCEDES-BENZ 230 SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_230)

[XOMichelle]

Originally posted by gogoaphi
I have VERY direct involvement with Santa Clara and our TRULY REMARKABLE VOLUNTEER Panhellenic Advisor is a member of Delta Delta Delta! She's really been an integral part of our being able to build a cooperative and thriving greek community in Santa Clara!!!

What chapters are there at Santa Clara?

[Janerz222]

Santa Clara has Delta Gamma, Alpha Phi, and Kappa Alpha Theta.

[Janerz222]

Here's a letter to the editor (http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/22/opinion/10798.shtml) that was published in today's Daily Princetonian...

[gogoaphi]

That's a good one! :)