A white Chingy??

[ZZ-kai-]

If there were a hip-hop party, and you dressed up as Chingy, that's cool, right? But if you're white, don't do it. I think that is absolutely s**t, discuss....

++++++++++++++++++
The Georgia State University Signal
May 12, 2004

Georgia State U. Pike member comes forward to answer charges

By J.D. Sumner, The Georgia State University Signal

Who knew that dressing up like rap sensation Chingy could get someone in so much trouble?

After nearly four months of threats, anxiety and misinformation, a Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity member who donned black face paint at a January party has decided to step out of the shadows and answer charges that he and his beloved fraternity are racist.

Bill, as we'll refer to him, has endured the threats, insults and, most recently, the sanctions handed down by the Senate Judicial Committee for Student Discipline.

"I had no intention of offending anyone," Bill said. "I've had friends come up to me and ask if I was a racist because of bad information that's been circulated throughout campus."

The week before the party started routinely enough. The Pikes gathered into their typical planning meeting to discuss upcoming events, when they were told of about a hip-hop theme party.

"We were told to come dressed as our favorite rapper," Bill said. "I chose to dress up like Chingy, and the other guy chose to dress up like Dr. Dre. And it wasn't just black face paint," Bill continued, "We were dressed up head to toe."

Chingy, one of the latest members of Atlanta-based rapper Ludicris' Disturbing Tha Peace family, has hit the ranks of the rapping world big time with his debut album "Jackpot."

Bill, who comes from a sizeable north Georgia town, said that he had never heard of the history or connotations surrounding blackface and that he was simply trying to dress up like his favorite rapper.

Upon arriving at the party, the two were immediately confronted by former Pike President Rick Burt, who told them that while he personally wasn't offended by the paint, that trouble had occurred at other schools when people had done similar things and that "it'd be best to wash it off."

Ironically, the trouble started as the two were headed to wash the paint off their faces. It was while they were waiting to get into the bathroom that members of the Phi Beta Sigma fraternity first encountered them.

"Not a word was said. I saw one of their members and they just kept walking by. It all happened pretty quickly," Bill said. When asked if they recognized who he was, Bill replied, "No, no I don't think so."

After washing the paint off of their faces, Bill said the two left the party and didn't return. He also said that, after hearing that some of the Sigmas had been offended by the stunt, the Pikes tried to get them to come back so they could apologize, but it just didn't happen that night.

According to the testimony of Pike president Dan Forrester at the fraternity hearing held last week, he called the Sigmas the next morning to apologize and set up a meeting where everyone could get together face-to-face for an apology.

"I apologized face-to-face and in writing. I truly was sorry that I offended people; it wasn't our intent at all," Bill said.

Intentions aside, the stunt sparked controversy and created a racial divide at a university that prides itself on racial diversity.

Bill, a fourth-year student at Georgia State University, is appealing the sanctions handed down to him by the committee, saying that there were procedural and evidentiary problems and that the sanction imposed was too harsh for the situation.

He declined to comment on what those sanctions were but did say that Dr. Hazel Scott was hearing his appeal. Should she reject his appeal, Bill's next steps are to go to President Carl Patton and then to the Board of Regents for the University System of Georgia.

Bill says his life has changed in a number of ways since the incident. He concedes that, while his character and constitutions are the same, he's now more conscious of things that people might find offensive.

"When I get dressed every morning I think, 'will people think this shirts offensive today?' It's gotten to the point where I don't want to walk around campus anymore with my brothers," Bill said. "There is definitely hatred here; it's scary."

For now, Bill won't even entertain the idea of transferring to another school because of the stunt. He's intent on finishing up his coursework and graduating.

What's happening here at Georgia State sounds eerily like a similar incident at the University of Tennessee in 2002. There, members of the campus chapter of Kappa Sigma dressed in blackface as the Jackson Five for an air-guitar contest at a campus party. After discussions, administration officials decided not to penalize the members for their stunt due to their constitutional right to free speech, saying that the right of expression must be protected even "when some find it to be insensitive and offensive."

(C) 2003 The Georgia State University Signa
++++++++++++++++++++++

[DeltAlum]

FYI, this article is also posted in the Risk Management Forum. It may get more play here, though, so I think it's worthwhile to leave it here.

This topic has caused huge debates when it has come up over the past several years, and it is obvious that is raises strong emotions on both sides.

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[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
If there were a hip-hop party, and you dressed up as Chingy, that's cool, right? But if you're white, don't do it. I think that is absolutely s**t, discuss....

No I disgree. I think if you're white you can come dressed up as Chingy or whoever. But I tend to think that you can get your point across without black face. I also don't think you need to know the historical implications of blackface to know that it's offensive
I think it's stupid to tell invite someone to a party and say come as your favourite rapper only to turn around and say, "but since you're white you can only come as Eminem or Vanilla Ice".
People are smart enough to figure out who you're trying to portray. I mean if I showed up wearing next to nothing I'm pretty sure people could figure out I was dressed as Lil' Kim.
It is possible to imitate your favourite artist, athlete, etc, etc, wothout being offensive Even if that person is of another race.
I'm sure a black man could dress up as Donald Trump wearing a suit and a really bad wig and we'd all know who he wa trying to be without painting is face white.
What these guys did was stupid and ignorant and offensive. I would be offended if I was at that party. You can't always play the ignorant card.

[ZZ-kai-]

I respectfully disagree. If you were to come dressed with little to nothing on, I'd guess Britney Spears, Chritina Agulera...etc., before I were to go on to Little Kim. Also, if its fair to say you can always pull the ignorant card, then you can't always pull the race card.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
I respectfully disagree. If you were to come dressed with little to nothing on, I'd guess Britney Spears, Chritina Agulera...etc., before I were to go on to Little Kim. Also, if its fair to say you can always pull the ignorant card, then you can't always pull the race card.

Again I disagree. If it were a "come as your favourite rapper" party, then Lil Kim would be a logical choice. If a girl showed up in White lengerie and a white wig I would think, "Oh Lil Kim from the Lady Marmalade video" If it were "come as your favourite artist" then yes I could see Where one might say Christina or Britney, etc, etc.

But I do agree with you one thing thing. I don't think you can alway play the ignorant card, just like I don't think you can always play the race card.

[ZZ-kai-]

Well, I guess we can agree to agree, or disagree, eh? :)

Anyway, the point I was/am trying to make, is that issues such as this tend to get so far out of whack, its rediculous. I mean what the Beta's and Delta Sigs did at Auburn was horrible, they paid their price, they learned from it and moved on. But these kids, dang, they just dressed up, it wasn't offensive, it wasn't hatred, it was just some individuals who got all pi$$ed off over something little and went to war with it.

Thats why P.C. America sucks today. If a black female dressed up as Celine Deion in "white face, I'd think it was hilarious, as would almost everyone else.

This is a GREAT quote from todays FoxNews.com:

"Patrick and Lisa in Albuquerque write:

Ah, the double standard in Albuquerque again. Where is El Centro de la Raza or the Chicano studies department at UNM when it comes to one of the local eateries here in Albuquerque, namely the eight Garcia's Kitchen's? Their marketing logo, worn on all employees' shirts, proudly states "Help stamp out gringo food."

Can you imagine the uproar if I used the word "spic" or, God forbid, the "n" word (as we now have to refer to it) in an Anglo promotion?

Oh yeah, that's right, only white people are offensive, and only "minorities" can be offended. "

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120071,00.html

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-

Ah, the double standard in Albuquerque again. Where is El Centro de la Raza or the Chicano studies department at UNM when it comes to one of the local eateries here in Albuquerque, namely the eight Garcia's Kitchen's? Their marketing logo, worn on all employees' shirts, proudly states "Help stamp out gringo food."

Can you imagine the uproar if I used the word "spic" or, God forbid, the "n" word (as we now have to refer to it) in an Anglo promotion?

Oh yeah, that's right, only white people are offensive, and only "minorities" can be offended. "

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120071,00.html

I'm confused by this person's letter. :confused: A Hispanic eatery (Garcia Kitchen) is using the marketing slogan "Help stamp out gringo food." Is "gringo" a deroggatory term for non-hispanics? I've never heard this word before.

Can someone give me the jist surrounding the purpose of this story?

:confused:

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
I'm confused by this person's letter. :confused: A Hispanic eatery (Garcia Kitchen) is using the marketing slogan "Help stamp out gringo food." Is "gringo" a deroggatory term for non-hispanics? I've never heard this word before.

Can someone give me the jist surrounding the purpose of this story?

:confused:

Yes Gringo is a "derogatory" word for white people. Although I can't give you the historical context for this term.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Yes Gringo is a "derogatory" word for white people. Although I can't give you the historical context for this term.

Thanks Lady Pi Phi. :)

I learned something new today.

[thermobryan]

DAMN IM SO TIRED OF THIS SUBJECT! CANT WE FIND SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE INTERESTING!!

[mu_agd]

Originally posted by thermobryan
DAMN IM SO TIRED OF THIS SUBJECT! CANT WE FIND SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE INTERESTING!!

if you're tired of it then why comment on it?

[thermobryan]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Well, I guess we can agree to agree, or disagree, eh? :)

Anyway, the point I was/am trying to make, is that issues such as this tend to get so far out of whack, its rediculous. I mean what the Beta's and Delta Sigs did at Auburn was horrible, they paid their price, they learned from it and moved on. But these kids, dang, they just dressed up, it wasn't offensive, it wasn't hatred, it was just some individuals who got all pi$$ed off over something little and went to war with it.

Thats why P.C. America sucks today. If a black female dressed up as Celine Deion in "white face, I'd think it was hilarious, as would almost everyone else.

This is a GREAT quote from todays FoxNews.com:

"Patrick and Lisa in Albuquerque write:

Ah, the double standard in Albuquerque again. Where is El Centro de la Raza or the Chicano studies department at UNM when it comes to one of the local eateries here in Albuquerque, namely the eight Garcia's Kitchen's? Their marketing logo, worn on all employees' shirts, proudly states "Help stamp out gringo food."

Can you imagine the uproar if I used the word "spic" or, God forbid, the "n" word (as we now have to refer to it) in an Anglo promotion?

Oh yeah, that's right, only white people are offensive, and only "minorities" can be offended. "

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120071,00.html

Thank you, im glad im not the only one that sees this issue. You can people go on TV all day saying "cracker" "honkey" "white trash" etc etc...and nobody sees it really as a problem, but if one derogitory term is used towards a minority then its the end of the world (I'm actually white and im a minority in my community, so yes whites are minorites too now).
Now if a white person was to make a big deal about being called a cracker, people would think of him as overreacting, correct?
Double standard and reverse racism....

[Senusret I]

Originally posted by thermobryan
Now if a white person was to make a big deal about being called a cracker, people would think of him as overreacting, correct?

I certainly wouldn't think you were overreacting. If you don't want to be called that, I wouldn't say it, and I would support your desire to be called what you choose.

[GeekyPenguin]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gringo&f=1

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gringo


Perhaps those will give some idea of the frame of reference of "gringo" to those who have not heard of it.

[Glitter650]

I don't see this as big of a deal as some other events where people put on black face with the sole purpose of being offensive... but black face is just offensive no matter the intentions behind it.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Glitter650
I don't see this as big of a deal as some other events where people put on black face with the sole purpose of being offensive... but black face is just offensive no matter the intentions behind it.
Perhaps that's the point. A number of people have said that they didn't realize that the use of blackface was as objectionable as it obviously is. Isn't it possible that the terms mentioned might be as objectionable to another race?

While some may be used in jest, I don't see any of them being used in a complimentary manor(?).

[Jill1228]

As a Black woman, I can say I don't think you are overreacting AT ALL! I have to say I cringe and get pissed off when I hear ANY slur whether it be directed toward, Whites, Blacks, Arabs, Gays, Jews, Hispanics, Asians, what have you. And I do not allow them to be said in my home

So the double standard doesn't work with me!

Originally posted by thermobryan
Thank you, im glad im not the only one that sees this issue. You can people go on TV all day saying "cracker" "honkey" "white trash" etc etc...and nobody sees it really as a problem, but if one derogitory term is used towards a minority then its the end of the world (I'm actually white and im a minority in my community, so yes whites are minorites too now).
Now if a white person was to make a big deal about being called a cracker, people would think of him as overreacting, correct?
Double standard and reverse racism....

[Rudey]

Have any of you ever heard of the concept of political capital?

You are endowed with a bit of political capital and earn more throw your experiences, etc. You can spend it as you wish. Sometimes you can squander it.

Saying the word "niggardly" is racist was squandering political capital. There were so many other issues to spend that political capital on.

Constantly saying blacks are sensitive and can't handle blackface is squandering political capital.

This isn't even an issue of right or wrong anymore, as much as it is turning into a redundant waste.

-Rudey

[sugar and spice]

I am continuously surprised at the number of people who don't understand "historical context."

It is not a double standard, it is not "reverse racism" . . . it is placing things in their proper historical and cultural contexts. "Cracker" is more acceptable than "nigger" because of the historical implications of such terms. If you are a white person who is offended by "cracker" then GREAT -- make it known. If no whites ever comment on the fact that they're offended by that, then it will continue to be seen as less harmful. And if you're a white who's not offended by the use of "cracker" or "honkey" but you're just using it to make a point, then I don't think they're comparable.

Also, Rudey, comparing the "niggardly" example to blackface is hardly accurate. "Niggardly" had no ties whatsoever to racial issues. Blackface does, and is offensive. It isn't about people not being able to "handle" it -- it's about what's appropriate.

I'm not sure why so many people are obsessed with their "right" to wear blackface. I don't know, but I'd cheerfully give up my right to paint myself brown and call myself Oprah if it meant that there would be less racial conflict in this country.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
It is not a double standard, it is not "reverse racism" . . . it is placing things in their proper historical and cultural contexts. "Cracker" is more acceptable than "nigger" because of the historical implications of such terms. If you are a white person who is offended by "cracker" then GREAT -- make it known. If no whites ever comment on the fact that they're offended by that, then it will continue to be seen as less harmful. And if you're a white who's not offended by the use of "cracker" or "honkey" but you're just using it to make a point, then I don't think they're comparable.

I have to agree here. When I hear the term "cracker" doesn't really offend me. But it does tell me a lot about the person using it. I don't think it's a double standard at all. When you hear "cracker" used in a tv show. Do you call the station/production comapny/fcc to complain about? Probably not. Most people just shrug it off. To me, there are worse things you can call me than a "cracker".
Now this is just how I feel. I still think using the n-word is 100 times for offensive than "cracker".

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Also, Rudey, comparing the "niggardly" example to blackface is hardly accurate. "Niggardly" had no ties whatsoever to racial issues. Blackface does, and is offensive. It isn't about people not being able to "handle" it -- it's about what's appropriate.

There was no comparison made. I brought up the concept of political capital.

-Rudey

[ZZ-kai-]

Sorry, I disagree. Cracker, White-Trash, Honkey, White-Bread...etc., are used on TV and Radio every day. The "n" word is not said at all, if it is, then that station is fined heavily or thrown off air.

I don't condone those actions, but I think justice should be fair both ways. Fair is fair, but that game is not being played. This is a prime example of P.C. America at its best I guess.

If those kids truly did that in a non-offensive way, whether they knew the history or NOT, they shouldn't have to run from threats and feel as though they will be beat up walking to class. And for that kid to have to think about what shirt he wears every day and who it may offend, is such shit. Ask yourself the same question, do you think about that every day? I doubt it.

Also, they shouldn't have to know the history behind everything prior to doing something - thats a lame excuse.

Maybe people should focus more of their time protesting the Klan or White-Sepremicist groups or something, not some 20 year old kids dressing as Chingy and Dr. Driz-ay.

'...chillin at the Holidae Inn'

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Maybe people should focus more of their time protesting the Klan or White-Sepremicist groups or something, not some 20 year old kids dressing as Chingy and Dr. Driz-ay.

'...chillin at the Holidae Inn'

You seem to be spending a bit of time on here protesting that they protest.

-Rudey

[ZZ-kai-]

Exaclty....you should see the protest sign I made.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Sorry, I disagree. Cracker, White-Trash, Honkey, White-Bread...etc., are used on TV and Radio every day. The "n" word is not said at all, if it is, then that station is fined heavily or thrown off air.

I don't condone those actions, but I think justice should be fair both ways. Fair is fair, but that game is not being played. This is a prime example of P.C. America at its best I guess.

If those kids truly did that in a non-offensive way, whether they knew the history or NOT, they shouldn't have to run from threats and feel as though they will be beat up walking to class. And for that kid to have to think about what shirt he wears every day and who it may offend, is such shit. Ask yourself the same question, do you think about that every day? I doubt it.

Also, they shouldn't have to know the history behind everything prior to doing something - thats a lame excuse.

Maybe people should focus more of their time protesting the Klan or White-Sepremicist groups or something, not some 20 year old kids dressing as Chingy and Dr. Driz-ay.

'...chillin at the Holidae Inn'

The reason why "cracker," "white trash," etc. are used when the n-word is not is because the majority of white Americans are not offended by "cracker," or if they are, they don't make their offense known. If that happened, "cracker" would be off the air almost immediately.

Sorry, but ignorance is not an excuse. You do something racist, it doesn't matter that you don't know the history behind it -- it is still unacceptable. It's ridiculous that anyone can make it to college these days and not understand the historical implications of blackface.

And as for the white supremecists -- racism is played out by stupid ignorant 20-year-olds in this country much more often than the Klan makes their precense felt. Racism doesn't just apply to cross-burners -- it is something that we all influence on a daily basis.

[Senusret I]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Also, Rudey, comparing the "niggardly" example to blackface is hardly accurate. "Niggardly" had no ties whatsoever to racial issues. Blackface does, and is offensive. It isn't about people not being able to "handle" it -- it's about what's appropriate.


To be fair, Rudey is referencing a situation that occured in DC a few years ago, early into Mayor Anthony Williams' administration.

Full Article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Maybe people should focus more of their time protesting the Klan or White-Sepremicist groups or something, not some 20 year old kids dressing as Chingy and Dr. Driz-ay.

'...chillin at the Holidae Inn'

In this case I don't have much of an opinion. But in general, I'm more threatened by "20 year old kids" in college than the klan or white supremicists, when it comes to racism. White supremists and the klan are extremists that very few people take seriously. On the other hand, college students have potential to be become future leaders, such as politicians, managers, teachers, etc. They will have more power, unlike those extremist groups.

[AXJules]

I'm not too interested in this discussion, but props to the old president for confronting them right when they walked in. Whether they had a right to wear it or not, I think it's great that someone was intelligent enough to learn from another chapter's mistakes and be proactive.

[ZZ-kai-]

I don't recall ever being taught about blackface in my schooling, from grade school through my undergrad and never heard about it, it's history, or any of its offensive meaning, until I read about the Auburn incident - sorry. I doubt it is being taught in the majority of schools...so, ignorance may not be an excuse to you, but its not fair to assume that everyone and their mother is aware of that. I am sure there are plenty of people who'd agree with me.

Still, everything listed below is not an excuse to make these kids lives hell. Its an un-level playing field, unfortunately.


Originally posted by sugar and spice
The reason why "cracker," "white trash," etc. are used when the n-word is not is because the majority of white Americans are not offended by "cracker," or if they are, they don't make their offense known. If that happened, "cracker" would be off the air almost immediately.

Sorry, but ignorance is not an excuse. You do something racist, it doesn't matter that you don't know the history behind it -- it is still unacceptable. It's ridiculous that anyone can make it to college these days and not understand the historical implications of blackface.

And as for the white supremecists -- racism is played out by stupid ignorant 20-year-olds in this country much more often than the Klan makes their precense felt. Racism doesn't just apply to cross-burners -- it is something that we all influence on a daily basis.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Dionysus
In this case I don't have much of an opinion. But in general, I'm more threatened by "20 year old kids" in college than the klan or white supremicists, when it comes to racism. White supremists and the klan are extremists that very few people take seriously. On the other hand, college students have potential to be become future leaders, such as politicians, managers, teachers, etc. They will have more power, unlike those extremist groups.


paging ZZ-kai . . . paging ZZ-kai . . . you have a beating awaiting (from Dionysus no less) in your own thread . . . last call for ZZ-kai

[ZZ-kai-]

Bring it, tough guy.

[thermobryan]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
The reason why "cracker," "white trash," etc. are used when the n-word is not is because the majority of white Americans are not offended by "cracker," or if they are, they don't make their offense known. If that happened, "cracker" would be off the air almost immediately.



True, they don't make it known, but should you have to complain about everything all the time. But the simple fact that most (not all) people dont feel that its wrong calling a white person a racial derogitory remark, and calling any other race an equal remark is unexcuseable. Take an example, if you saw that a group of white people were complaining about the words "cracker" and "honkey" etc were being used on television and they were protesting then most people would think they're crazy, right or wrong? The simple fact is that there is a double standard, and god damn it dont say im racist here. Whites can be trashed to no ends of the earth, its becoming as if theyre a joke topic now. But to make fun of a minority is a crime. Sorry, but I get offended if I'm called a cracker or white trash, because its a derogitory remark. Yes there are worse things you can call me, but putting me down isn't really high on my list of things to tolerate.

Whether the people complain about it or not, people advocating racial harmony and rights should see every side of the table. Do you think that calling white people crackers and honkeys is really helping race relations?

[abaici]

WHY, Blackface??? Can someone please answer that question for me? Break it down to the least common denominator.

Even if a Black person wants to dress up as Chingy, they may not be the same coloring. Does, that Black man darken or lighten himself?...um, no.

Go as Chingy...wear the clothes. If someone asks who you are, say, "I'm Chingy" (Most people ask what/who you are at costume parties anyway).

Otherwise, go as Eminem or Vanilla Ice if you do not want people to ask who you are.


**I refuse to address the point of a "Go as your fav. rapper party"**

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by thermobryan
True, they don't make it known, but should you have to complain about everything all the time. But the simple fact that most (not all) people dont feel that its wrong calling a white person a racial derogitory remark, and calling any other race an equal remark is unexcuseable. Take an example, if you saw that a group of white people were complaining about the words "cracker" and "honkey" etc were being used on television and they were protesting then most people would think they're crazy, right or wrong? The simple fact is that there is a double standard, and god damn it dont say im racist here. Whites can be trashed to no ends of the earth, its becoming as if theyre a joke topic now. But to make fun of a minority is a crime. Sorry, but I get offended if I'm called a cracker or white trash, because its a derogitory remark. Yes there are worse things you can call me, but putting me down isn't really high on my list of things to tolerate.

Whether the people complain about it or not, people advocating racial harmony and rights should see every side of the table. Do you think that calling white people crackers and honkeys is really helping race relations?

I think you are generalizing WAYYYYYY too much. A comedian does not reflect the views of an ENTIRE group of people.

Anyway if you are offended, then PLEASE let that person, TV stations, radio, etc. know about it! And (surprise, surprise) I highly doubt most folks would think you're crazy. You may be surprised to discover that A LOT of minorities would agree with you (since we know exactly what you're feeling).

Shoot, until this thread, I didn't know what the heck "gringo" was or meant much less that it was a derrogatory term for whites. After reading this thread, I did rememeber that word before. There was a picture in Glamour magazine with a celebrity wearing a T-Shirt with the word across the chest (It was the girl that does the voice of Kim Possible - I can't think of her name). Never would have guess that it was something offensive. I wonder does she know? :confused:

Ok, I'm babbling.....:)

[ZZ-kai-]

Here, here! What he said!

Originally posted by thermobryan
True, they don't make it known, but should you have to complain about everything all the time. But the simple fact that most (not all) people dont feel that its wrong calling a white person a racial derogitory remark, and calling any other race an equal remark is unexcuseable. Take an example, if you saw that a group of white people were complaining about the words "cracker" and "honkey" etc were being used on television and they were protesting then most people would think they're crazy, right or wrong? The simple fact is that there is a double standard, and god damn it dont say im racist here. Whites can be trashed to no ends of the earth, its becoming as if theyre a joke topic now. But to make fun of a minority is a crime. Sorry, but I get offended if I'm called a cracker or white trash, because its a derogitory remark. Yes there are worse things you can call me, but putting me down isn't really high on my list of things to tolerate.

Whether the people complain about it or not, people advocating racial harmony and rights should see every side of the table. Do you think that calling white people crackers and honkeys is really helping race relations?

[DeltAlum]

No baiting.

Nobody's calling anyone out.

Watch the expletives.

This is a debate, not a fight.

Go to the other threads if you want the latter.

You know who you are.

[PM_Mama00]

I, as well as thousands of people (I ain't gona lie, I'm assuming) are offended by fat suits and the words fat ass and other words demeaning to fat people. We get offended everyday. We've been offended for a long time.

I am Italian. I don't like people calling me a Dago, or Wop, or asking if my family is in the mafia, or being told "you're not white".

I don't like non-whites calling whites "cracka" or "honky". I was watching I love the 80s and they talked about how on Miami Vice what's his name always called Don Johnson "cracka". That offends me.

I'm also offended that two young men made a mistake that alot of people could have made and they tried to fix it and apologized to no end and are still being threatened and what not. GET OVER IT. Not everyone knows the history of blackface. Hell I've been on these boards for a few years and have taken on the nickname, unwillingly as the racist bitch. I STILL don't know the history of blackface. I had a Pursuasion Speech class in which all we talked about the whole semester was civil rights protests. Never learned abotu black face and every little thing that is offensive. Now I know it's offensive, so ok. But alot of people don't know that it is offensive.

What do you expect teachers to do? Teach every damn thing that is offensive to people? Students would be in school for a lifetime.

And NOOOOOOOO I'm not racist. Give it up.

[KSig RC]

An interesting anecdote:

Jackie Robinson actually had many try-outs with major league teams before he was signed by the Dodgers - one of the first was with the Boston Red Sox. He, along with the immortal Josh Gibson and a few other players, worked through a full skills workout in Fenway, decidedly out-performing the white AAA players running through the drills with them. As they left the field, a man yelled from the box seats behind home plate, "Great workout, but let's get those niggers off the field."


That man? Purportedly Tom Yawkey, famed Red Sox owner and philanthropist.

Now, the point is not to deride Tom Yawkey, nor to excuse his behavior as being a 'reflection of his time' or whatever - instead, I'd like to ask you this question:

You think an analogous situation ever arose with regard to white people? Did the word "cracka" or any other such nonsense ever come up in this sort of situation?

There's no sort of history behind these supposed white racial slurs. Your views are implicitly flawed by ignoring this fact.

FACT!

Originally posted by thermobryan
True, they don't make it known, but should you have to complain about everything all the time. But the simple fact that most (not all) people dont feel that its wrong calling a white person a racial derogitory remark, and calling any other race an equal remark is unexcuseable. Take an example, if you saw that a group of white people were complaining about the words "cracker" and "honkey" etc were being used on television and they were protesting then most people would think they're crazy, right or wrong? The simple fact is that there is a double standard, and god damn it dont say im racist here. Whites can be trashed to no ends of the earth, its becoming as if theyre a joke topic now. But to make fun of a minority is a crime. Sorry, but I get offended if I'm called a cracker or white trash, because its a derogitory remark. Yes there are worse things you can call me, but putting me down isn't really high on my list of things to tolerate.

Whether the people complain about it or not, people advocating racial harmony and rights should see every side of the table. Do you think that calling white people crackers and honkeys is really helping race relations?

[abaici]

Well, these incidents are occurring with alarming frequency. A number of these incidents have been covered in nationally. I would hope that a lightbulb would have turned on in people's head..."Blackface is offensive"



Originally posted by PM_Mama00
I STILL don't know the history of blackface.



Well, you can correct that. After someone tells you something, you can no longer feign ignorance.

[thermobryan]

Originally posted by KSig RC
An interesting anecdote:



You think an analogous situation ever arose with regard to white people? Did the word "cracka" or any other such nonsense ever come up in this sort of situation?

There's no sort of history behind these supposed white racial slurs. Your views are implicitly flawed by ignoring this fact.

FACT!

How do you know? For a word to be used in the general public there has to be some sort of history behind it, and all it sounds like is that youre trying to justify using derogitory remarks towards white people since there is supposedly no history behind them, does that still make it right?

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by KSig RC


There's no sort of history behind these supposed white racial slurs. Your views are implicitly flawed by ignoring this fact.

FACT!

Exactly.

Let's get married.

The bottom line: there can't be a "double standard" when you're comparing two totally different situations.


Side note: As a white woman, I don't give a flying bleep if somebody of another race calls me a cracker because guess what? The fact that their racism is going to affect me significantly in any way is slim. Most non-whites in America don't have that luxury if somebody uses a racial slur against them, and it's a reminder that racism against them is still a part of their daily existence.

No, I don't approve of every aspect of this situation . . . for example, I think calling these guys up and threatening to beat them up is hardly an effective way to go about changing things. But on the other hand, it was their own stupidity that got them into this mess. So I'm not too inclined to feel sorry for them.

Originally posted by PM_Mama00


I STILL don't know the history of blackface. I had a Pursuasion Speech class in which all we talked about the whole semester was civil rights protests. Never learned abotu black face and every little thing that is offensive. Now I know it's offensive, so ok. But alot of people don't know that it is offensive.

What do you expect teachers to do? Teach every damn thing that is offensive to people? Students would be in school for a lifetime.



THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not the school's responsibility to educate you on every little thing that might be offensive. It's your own damn responsibility.

Seeing that you've been on GC, you've read threads on blackface, you've even contributed your opinion to threads on blackface . . . but you admit you don't even understand the history behind it? Yet blame your teachers for your own ignorance? Despite the fact that you've been exposed to it, and apparently formed an opinion on it despite not researching it whatsoever? WTF?

Seriously, I give up. I don't understand isht like that at all and I kind of doubt that I ever will.

[Glitter650]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Exactly.

Let's get married.

The bottom line: there can't be a "double standard" when you're comparing two totally different situations.


Side note: As a white woman, I don't give a flying bleep if somebody of another race calls me a cracker because guess what? The fact that their racism is going to affect me significantly in any way is slim. Most non-whites in America don't have that luxury if somebody uses a racial slur against them, and it's a reminder that racism against them is still a part of their daily existence.

No, I don't approve of every aspect of this situation . . . for example, I think calling these guys up and threatening to beat them up is hardly an effective way to go about changing things. But on the other hand, it was their own stupidity that got them into this mess. So I'm not too inclined to feel sorry for them.



THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not the school's responsibility to educate you on every little thing that might be offensive. It's your own damn responsibility.

Seeing that you've been on GC, you've read threads on blackface, you've even contributed your opinion to threads on blackface . . . but you admit you don't even understand the history behind it? Yet blame your teachers for your own ignorance? Despite the fact that you've been exposed to it, and apparently formed an opinion on it despite not researching it whatsoever? WTF?

Seriously, I give up. I don't understand isht like that at all and I kind of doubt that I ever will.


I agree... I don't believe Sugar and Spice was saying that you need to read the book on the history of the N word or research things...or expect the school to teach you.. (because they aren't going to) she's just saying to stop and think before you say/do something, no I don't think it's acceptable for racial slurs to be used against whites either, however I agree with S&S here that if more people actually saw cracker as an insult it would be off the airwaves in a heart beat (it's mainly white men who rule the airwaves) most people I know could care less if someone called them a cracker and see it as kind of a joke word, although all may not... my suggestion is if it offends you say something or no one will ever know and as Elle Woods says if you don't say anything, you'll be in for a really bad hair cut.
I'm sorry but I don't see how anyone can not see that Blackface is offensive. If you were overweight, and some skinny guy padded himself up in some crazy funny exaggerated looking way (which is what blackface looks like, exaggerated and "funny") and said that he was being you for the mixer woudln't you be offended ?

[ZZ-kai-]

I don't get it. Why does something have to have history tied to it to be offensive? Just because whites were not booted out of Major Leagues, or Universities, or bus routes and called crackers, doesn't make it any less offensive.

There is a double-standard, realize that.

Also, just because a few incidents made CNN and MSNBC doesn't mean that the history behind blackface is being made any more public. If these kids were not greek, chances are 100 times more likely that they didn't get wind of the other events taht took place (IE, Auburn)

Lastly, quit blaming people for 'not knowing history' about blackface. Just because someone read about it on this board, doesn't make them a historian on this fact.

FACT!

Originally posted by KSig RC
An interesting anecdote:

......You think an analogous situation ever arose with regard to white people? Did the word "cracka" or any other such nonsense ever come up in this sort of situation?

There's no sort of history behind these supposed white racial slurs. Your views are implicitly flawed by ignoring this fact.

FACT!

[Lady Pi Phi]

Honestly, I don't think you have to know the entire history behind blackface to know it's offensive. Although it would be nice.

Have you ever watched old movie with people dressed up in balck face? Did you notice they were the butt of jokes? If you had, you would realize that they weren'tn imitating balck people, they were making fun of them. Which is how you would know it would be offensive today. It doesn't require a complete history lesson, it requires a little common sense.

[DeltaSigStan]

You can't compare our plight with that of ANY race Phyllis. One day, God willing, I'll be thin...but I can't change the color of my skin.

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
I, as well as thousands of people (I ain't gona lie, I'm assuming) are offended by fat suits and the words fat ass and other words demeaning to fat people. We get offended everyday. We've been offended for a long time.
.

[ZZ-kai-]

Sorry, I can't change history and neither can you, or the kid who played Chingy. There is no reason he should be subject to harassment and possible death because of this. Its one thing if he dressed up, mockingly (as you stated below), but he didn't. Seeing old movies is not a history lesson, most people are not observent enough to say "hey, theres a white guy dressed up with some black makeup on, I assume they are making fun of the black race". People see it as old 1950's comedy - which is how it was - get over it.

When was the last time a white kid was able to move into his dorm 2 days earlier than everyone else, just because he is white?

Its all bull.

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Honestly, I don't think you have to know the entire history behind blackface to know it's offensive. Although it would be nice.

Have you ever watched old movie with people dressed up in balck face? Did you notice they were the butt of jokes? If you had, you would realize that they weren'tn imitating balck people, they were making fun of them. Which is how you would know it would be offensive today. It doesn't require a complete history lesson, it requires a little common sense.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Exaclty....you should see the protest sign I made.

While you were trying to say you weren't "protesting", you seem to have posted quite a bit about this. Truly this has taken on a higher priority for you.

-Rudey

[ZZ-kai-]

Go talk about Economics somewhere.

Originally posted by Rudey
While you were trying to say you weren't "protesting", you seem to have posted quite a bit about this. Truly this has taken on a higher priority for you.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Go talk about Economics somewhere.

Actually I double majored and my other major was public policy. This could fall under that. I was also pre-med so maybe I can help guide you through whatever bio-chemical malady you suffer from.

-Rudey
--If it is a malady of discontent, I suggest someone with an MD.

[ZZ-kai-]

Everyone who went to college started as pre-med or a double major.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Everyone who went to college started as pre-med or a double major.

I started and finished - very well I might add. I'm not everyone.

I also don't come on GC complaining about how black people are "sensitive" about blackface. If I have a legitimate point to make on the subject of race, I will wait until something of value comes up. That way I don't seem like I'm complaining a lot against people who complain a lot.

-Rudey

You're on the edge here guys. Don't take this any farther or it's gone. If you want to fight and call names, there's a lot of that on the other threads on this topic. Take it there. This one is going to be as civil as possible.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by thermobryan
How do you know? For a word to be used in the general public there has to be some sort of history behind it, and all it sounds like is that youre trying to justify using derogitory remarks towards white people since there is supposedly no history behind them, does that still make it right?


Look . . . the term "cracker" supposedly comes not from the saltine variety, as many assume now, but rather from being the 'whip-cracker' - it's a reference to being a slave owner, if I recall correctly.

Now, sure, it could be slightly offensive to be lumped in with slaveowners . . . but it's probably way more offensive to be lumped in with SLAVES.

I don't feel this needs any more clarification - if you get offended by the word 'cracker' and by 'moving into the dorms 2 days earlier' . . . perhaps we can arrange some sort of 'Trading Places' scenario, finding an Eddie Murphy to your oblivious Dan Akroyd.

It's obviously not a very cool thing (I'm going to avoid "right" or "wrong" for a minute) to refer to someone by an offensive racial term - it is demeaning to use someone's ethnic background as representative of the entirety of their person, or as representative of their status in society. However, when you carry the historical weight of being on top of the totem pole, rather than the bottom, complaining about minor slurs with no history of abasement behind them seems an awful lot like pissing at the rain.

I'm just saying.

[33girl]

This is a really lame addition to the discussion, but -

Why does every college party have to be a theme, come in costume deal? Is your real personality that boring and your social skills that lacking that you have to be dressed up to stimulate conversation? Why are you wasting money on doing this? What happened to going to a party, drinking a few and listening to music/dancing?

Sorry, but I just don't get it.

[AXJules]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Look . . . the term "cracker" supposedly comes not from the saltine variety, as many assume now, but rather from being the 'whip-cracker' - it's a reference to being a slave owner, if I recall correctly.

Now, sure, it could be slightly offensive to be lumped in with slaveowners . . . but it's probably way more offensive to be lumped in with SLAVES.

I don't feel this needs any more clarification - if you get offended by the word 'cracker' and by 'moving into the dorms 2 days earlier' . . . perhaps we can arrange some sort of 'Trading Places' scenario, finding an Eddie Murphy to your oblivious Dan Akroyd.

It's obviously not a very cool thing (I'm going to avoid "right" or "wrong" for a minute) to refer to someone by an offensive racial term - it is demeaning to use someone's ethnic background as representative of the entirety of their person, or as representative of their status in society. However, when you carry the historical weight of being on top of the totem pole, rather than the bottom, complaining about minor slurs with no history of abasement behind them seems an awful lot like pissing at the rain.

I'm just saying.
****applause****

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by 33girl
This is a really lame addition to the discussion, but -

Why does every college party have to be a theme, come in costume deal? Is your real personality that boring and your social skills that lacking that you have to be dressed up to stimulate conversation? Why are you wasting money on doing this? What happened to going to a party, drinking a few and listening to music/dancing?

Sorry, but I just don't get it.

I agree here. I hate theme parties. It's far too much effort when all I want to do is just have a little fun, have a few drinks and meet some people. It's far too uncomfortable to be dressed up.

[mrblonde]

Its not every college party. You just hear about them in these threads because people dont go in costume to non costume parties. :rolleyes:

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by mrblonde
Its not every college party. You just hear about them in these threads because people dont go in costume to non costume parties. :rolleyes:

The point was why have costume parties at all.

She didn't say every college party is a costume party.

[SouthrnBelle]

Also, just because a few incidents made CNN and MSNBC doesn't mean that the history behind blackface is being made any more public. If these kids were not greek, chances are 100 times more likely that they didn't get wind of the other events taht took place (IE, Auburn)

Just because something doesn't make the news (CNN & MSNBC) or isn't public knowledge doesn't keep it from being wrong, disrespectful, offensive, etc. Do you know how much stuff DOESN'T make the news!!!!! Is the news responsible for educating people? I don't think so.

As for the young lady who didn't have blackface mentioned in her PERSUASION SPEECH class...girl bye. I wouldn't expect blackface to be mentioned in a PERSUASION SPEECH class, especially not one dealing w/ the Civil Rights era. Blackface was quite a ways before that sweetie. "My teacher didn't teach me about blackface," is not an excuse. There are certain things that you just know are offensive or inappropriate.

If I were going to a party dressed as a non-African American person, my face would stay the same color it is every other day. There wouldn't be a drop of paint or makeup of ANY color on it.

What is the future going to be like? I'm nervous.

[mrblonde]

Why does every college party have to be a theme, come in costume deal?

Its a good thing being right never gets old...

[33girl]

It certainly seems that way. FWIW I don't know why every party has to have a t-shirt for it either.

But my point is, unless it's Halloween or maybe a mixer, I don't understand the need for elaborate costumes and makeup, black, white, or purple. Even the "dress-up" mixers we did were usually stuff out of our closets.

[mrblonde]

Right. Cant we all just agree that Chingy sucks and anyone who wants to emulate him in any way should be savagely beaten?

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by mrblonde
Right. Cant we all just agree that Chingy sucks...?

Yes, that I can agree with.

[33girl]

Originally posted by mrblonde
Right. Cant we all just agree that Chingy sucks and anyone who wants to emulate him in any way should be savagely beaten?

Yes.

[sigep533]

I never new until this was posted in jan. what blackface was or that it was offensive..

This may sound ignorant, but what is so offensive about it?

[KellyB369]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Have you ever watched old movie with people dressed up in balck face? Did you notice they were the butt of jokes? If you had, you would realize that they weren'tn imitating balck people, they were making fun of them. Which is how you would know it would be offensive today. It doesn't require a complete history lesson, it requires a little common sense.

But no one ever said that he was trying to make fun of Chingy or any other black person. He was trying to "imitate" a black person.
I know the history behind "blackface" and I'm not saying I would have chosen to dress up like that, but I think that this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion. It was a costume for a theme party, not an "anti-black" statement.

[mrblonde]

I have a similar question. Jimmy Fallon and Darrell Hammond of SNL have used makeup to look like black celebrities. Are the problems the people on this board have with imitation of famous black people or actual minstrel show blackface, with the shoe polish and white, rounded eyes look?

[msn4med1975]

Since people seem incapable of doing a simple search on Blackface, its historical context and why it might be offensive to someone here ya go. You may not share the same sentiment and honestly that really doesn't matter but here ya go so you can't say you weren't informed. As for comedians doing it, I hate it personally when anyone paints their face. It's not necessary for me to paint myself peach to imitate Rikki Lake and to think you do is a problem, but it's not my problem.

Blackface on Campus (http://campus.umr.edu/studentactivities/greek/Blackface%20resource%20%28AFA%29.pdf )

Blackface from Jim Crow to Hip Hop (http://www.bookstore.africanartbooks.us/n_0674747119.htm )

History of Blackface (http://www.personal.psu.edu/ebm126/black )

Racial Co(option)--Visiualizing Whiteness in a Suburban Space (http://astro.temple.edu/~ruby/aaa/matt.html )

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by KellyB369
But no one ever said that he was trying to make fun of Chingy or any other black person. He was trying to "imitate" a black person.
I know the history behind "blackface" and I'm not saying I would have chosen to dress up like that, but I think that this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion. It was a costume for a theme party, not an "anti-black" statement.

You don't have to be making fun of someone to have it be offensive.

An outfit worn by Chingy or other rapper or artists or whatever theme you're going for can be just as effective without using balckface.

Sure, you might not be able to get it on the first guess and you might have to ask who that person is dressed up as, but you can get the point across.

Like others have said black people don't have to paint their face white to come dress as a white celebrity.
A black female could come dressed in chaps, some skimpy underwear, a bikin top and a blonde wig and people might guess she's come dress as Christina Aguilera, but she doesn't have to paint her face white.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
The point was why have costume parties at all.

She didn't say every college party is a costume party.

Because they are fun.

And, when I said that I still don't know the history about blackface, I meant that yeah duh I know it's offensive, but I don't know what the REAL history behind it is. Instead of people goin off on people and calling them racist and ignorant, why doesn't someone explain it, please? (ETA... sorry didn't read the rest of the thread)

As for the young lady who didn't have blackface mentioned in her PERSUASION SPEECH class...girl bye. I wouldn't expect blackface to be mentioned in a PERSUASION SPEECH class, especially not one dealing w/ the Civil Rights era. Blackface was quite a ways before that sweetie. "My teacher didn't teach me about blackface," is not an excuse. There are certain things that you just know are offensive or inappropriate.

Why "bye"? Why be rude? I wouldn't expect my whole Theories of Persuasion Speech class to be a history lesson in black civil rights, but it was. And since I don't know the history behind blackface, then how am I supposed to know that it was way before that, sweetie? I KNOW they are offensive.


Blah blah blah. That's how these threads always end up.

[starang21]

damn, damn, damn...how many threads can we have on this subject?

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Because they are fun.

That's subjective.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
That's subjective.

Lol come to a UofM-Dearborn party and you'll wish every party had something goin on. Normal parties are just 100 or so people, not even, hmm barely even college students, walking around trashed. If I wanted that I'd go to the bars in Windsor!

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Lol come to a UofM-Dearborn party and you'll wish every party had something goin on. Normal parties are just 100 or so people, not even, hmm barely even college students, walking around trashed. If I wanted that I'd go to the bars in Windsor!

That's too bad. You went to the wrong school then.

The parties I go to you don't need to dress up to have a good time (hey maybe that should be the theme for the next afterschool special?)

[starang21]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
That's too bad. You went to the wrong school then.

The parties I go to you don't need to dress up to have a good time (hey maybe that should be the theme for the next afterschool special?)

when i was in school...the npc and ifc frats always had those dress up parties, but no one EVER donned anything remotely offensive.

[SigmaChiGuy]

And Fantasia Burrito is going to lose American Idol, because she is black - or will she WIN because she is black?

Well, its a toss up, just ask Elton John.

I don't see what the big deal, it doesn't matter, its always the white mans fault.

Kill Whitey!

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
Because they are fun.

And, when I said that I still don't know the history about blackface, I meant that yeah duh I know it's offensive, but I don't know what the REAL history behind it is. Instead of people goin off on people and calling them racist and ignorant, why doesn't someone explain it, please? (ETA... sorry didn't read the rest of the thread)
[/color]

Hon, you may or may not be a bigot -- I'm not going to weigh in -- but something tells me you're not too friggin' bright.

Remember that whole thing about how it's not somebody else's responsibility to educate you? What prevents all you kids from using google.com to do a simple search on "blackface"? I'm still not sure I understand.


I'm still curious why it is that so many of y'all reserve the right to be pissed at the word "cracker" yet you don't understand why blackface is offensive.

What is so difficult about not painting your face black?


GC gets more and more brilliant everyday. :rolleyes: Everytime there's a thread on race it comes back to white people complaining about how they're not racist, black people complain too much, and "there's a double standard!" Anybody but me find that amusing?

[DeltAlum]

OK.

I guess it's not possible to discuss this topic without calling people the equivilent of ignorant.

There are several other threads in Risk Management on this very same subject.

Take the argument and finger pointing there.

This one is done.