The Fat Lady Sang

[adduncan]

The regional coordinator just called me and told me the answer was no.

This is the short version. I need a little time to collect my thoughts and I'll be posting the detailed version a little bit later.

The AI journey is over for me. I found my home but the door was locked. I will always keep my promise though, of supporting Greek life, whatever my status is, because I still believe it is the best way for collegiates to begin their foundation for their adult lives. And I'll be here too, just probably not posting as much.

And I will be forever grateful to those of you who encouraged me this past year. Each and every one of you is a credit to the organization you pledged for opening up Greek life to others regardless of where they are. You are the reason I always will support the Greek system.

Love,
Adrienne

[GeekyPenguin]

Adrienne, I am really sorry to hear this. We're here if you need to talk.

[AUDeltaGam]

:(

All of us are here for you if you need us! We love you!

[violets]

I am so very sorry to hear this news. I know that you are just processing this disappointment right now, and I hope this statement doesn't seem like "too much too soon, " but I would like to take the time to suggest that in a while you may want to consider other options. Your enthusiasm for your search would suggest that you would make an extremely active member, and I know that all sororities need those in abundance. Just a thought.
Much Greek Love,
violets

[pinkyphimu]

i am so bummed for you!!! i am sorry things turned out this way. i will definately be sending you good wishes!

[butterfly2001nc]

i am soo sorry! there are other options if you really would like to be greek... hope u are doing okay!

[Cluey]

Adrienne,

I am so sorry!

I know right now you must be hurt, but I do hope that you will reconsider alumna initiation. Who knows? Maybe the fat lady was just signaling the end to act one and not the end to the whole opera. You'll never know what act two holds for you unless you pursue it.

Please know that I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. If there is anything I can help with, do not hesitate to let me know.

~ Annie :)

[texas*princess]

I'm so sorry to hear about this :(

We all still love you and support you in everything you decide to do!!!

[Munchkin03]

Your story was one of the ones I was really interested in, because you are so passionate about Greek Life. Please continue to keep a positive attitude about Greek life, and please don't leave GC! :)

[JennRN]

Originally posted by adduncan
The regional coordinator just called me and told me the answer was no.

This is the short version. I need a little time to collect my thoughts and I'll be posting the detailed version a little bit later.

The AI journey is over for me. I found my home but the door was locked. I will always keep my promise though, of supporting Greek life, whatever my status is, because I still believe it is the best way for collegiates to begin their foundation for their adult lives. And I'll be here too, just probably not posting as much.

And I will be forever grateful to those of you who encouraged me this past year. Each and every one of you is a credit to the organization you pledged for opening up Greek life to others regardless of where they are. You are the reason I always will support the Greek system.

Love,
Adrienne

Oh sweetie! I can't imagine how you feel, but offer hugs!! Let me just repeat the wise words that were once spoken to me..Everything happens for a reason!!Maybe you have yet to find your true home!! And when you get there you will truly know!!

Keep your head up!! And know that you have so much support here!!

[aopirose]

We're here for you, Adrienne.

[MTSUGURL]

I'm so sorry to hear this Adrienne. Lots of hugs to you girl!

[navane]

:(

Aww...

:(

<hugs>


Adrienne, you'll always be one of my PNAM sisters....



.....Kelly :(

[tinydancer]

I am so sorry. I didn't want this story to have a sad ending. We love you and will always be here for you. WE think you add a lot to our GC group, so please continue to stay with us.


Lizz

[bsp-mich24]

Awww Adrienne sorry to hear of the response you recieved, but don't give up yet...like others have said things happen for reason.;)

[DGMarie]

.

[Buttonz]

:( Sorry to hear...don't leave GC and as others have suggested.....maybe this is just the end of act one...not the end of it all

[breathesgelatin]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Adrienne}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

We love you!

[honeychile]

:(

(((((((((((((((((((((Adrienne))))))))))))))))))))) )

[Kristin AGD]

:( I am so sorry Adrienne. My heart is breaking for you. I am hoping after everything sinks in that you rethink your AI options. But I totally understand your dissapointment, and subsequent reluctance to do so. We are here for you either way.

Loyally,
Kristin

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I'm sorry Adrienne. I wish you the best.

[aephi alum]

I'm so sorry. :(

[daoine]

This is so upsetting.

I know I'm just repeating what everyone said, but I'm so sorry to hear about this. I can't imagine what it feels like...

[AOIIalum]

Adrienne, I am so very sorry to read your update. My thoughts and best wishes are with you.

Christin

[JohnsDGsweethrt]

Adrienne I'm so very sorry. Many hugs to you :(

[TCV]

I pm'd you :)
~TCV

[Jill1228]

{{{{Adrienne}}}}

[LouisaMay]

Dear Adrienne,
Please remember than AI is still a new process among NPC groups, and only a very few alumnae are initiated each year. Many factors could have contributed to the decision to not initiate you, and I am sure that you have skills and qualities that another group could be hoping for from an alumna. I hope that you find another worthy goal to which you may focus your energy and devotion.

Big Hugs from me...

LM

[Tom Earp]

One peach does not make a peach pie!:)

One set back is not the end of the world!;)

[CutiePie2000]

Adrienne,

I am truly sorry for your disappointment. :( I can understand if you want to take a break from things and just recuperate from the roller coaster ride that you have been on.

That being said, what Tom says above is true. I've been on GC for 3 years and I know of a woman who suffered heartbreaking disappointment. I kept with her and told her to take a break from things, then when ready, regroup and carry on..... she is now a happy AI and loves her "home".

So, while I think it is important to take a break as you've suffered disappointment, when you are ready, you may wish to carry on and reattempt with a different GLO. You will be supported on GC, I can tell you that.

Best of luck and I hope that you do find your way to your "home".

[M&M]

Adrienne,

I haven't been on GC in a while, but I was so disappointed to log on and see your update. I agree with everyone that you would make an excellent AI in any group you pursue. I'm so sorry that this hasn't worked out for you. I also agree that perhaps this isn't the end of AI for you. Who knows -- another group may catch your eye or things may change as AI becomes more common.

((((Adrienne))))

[LPIDelta]

Adrienne,
I too need to tell you how sorry I am to hear this news!!! Greek life is missing out by not having you as a member-- I am sure of it.

I have to say--truly SHOCKED that this happened to you. I mean who wouldn't want a dedicated, smartand mature member in their rolls?? Please do not let this be your final attempt at AI. Each group has something different to offer--and things aren't always what they seem on the outside anyway.

Best wishes!!!
Heather

[adduncan]

You guyz have to be the most unbelievable group of cyber-friends a girl could ever have.

Today is better than yesterday in quite a few ways. I went back with my sponsors and other people involved with this phase of AI and it turns out, the chapter was in favor of having me join, the national office had a big chunk of my paperwork with no red flags or objections (initial response was favorable). And some of the people in the chapter thought it was a done deal--just a final matter of paperwork and ritual.

The only fly in the ointment was this single regional officer/specialist/whateversheis deciding to tell the chapter "no". Remember, national was "all systems go", but a regional person (who admitted to me ON THE PHONE that she didn't know what AI was until she took this position) said it wasn't happening.

Something sketchy happened and several people are getting to the bottom of it. There are some **angry** chapter members on the phone to national. I pity the national officers with some of the calls and emails they're getting.

Thanx everyone for the PMs and emails--I promise I'll answer each and every one, but I'm still in getovertheshockandcalmdown mode. I had my hair done, got declawed (what my husband calls a manicure) and burned up a credit card at Saks. Amazing what that does for morale!

Once the brouhaha settles down, the entire story will get posted. (I'm working on it offline so I don't get logged off in the middle of a post. Happened before. It sux.)

The fat lady may be taking a curtain call at some point.

{{{{{{{{{{EVERYBODY ON GC}}}}}}}}}}

Adrienne

(edited to add: I do appreciate everyone's encouragement about keeping options open. As of this very second, I think I've done that--if I got an invite in the next 5 minutes from another org, to me it would be like shopping until someone took me and that's not what I'm doing. It's almost like getting out of a relationship, then going through a "rebound" phase. Not to say it's impossible, just things are still up in the air, w/ no clues as to where they are going to land, and I don't know what it would take to get me to the point where I could research and pursue another org without feeling....what's the word.......guilty I guess for "shopping" and "just going somewhere." Don't worry, youse guyz will be kept up to date.

--ADD

[FuzzieAlum]

Yay!

Would it help if GC offered to go kick that one officer's butt?

[sugar and spice]

I'm glad things are looking up at least a little bit. Hang in there! Hopefully this lady will be converted to the good side after all! ;)

[honeychile]

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
Yay!

Would it help if GC offered to go kick that one officer's butt?

Oh, my goodness - the mental image I got from that!! Dozens of sorority women slapping that person silly!!!

Adrienne, glad to hear that the retail therapy is working! Please know that you are loved and respected here ALWAYS!!!!

[DGMarie]

.

[breathesgelatin]

ADRIENNE!!!!!!!! So happy for you!!!

Hopefully, this messy situation will get all worked out... there are so many lines of communication to keep track of! I only wish that all NPCs had a better organized AI process, similar to the NPHCs!

[navane]

<Kelly grabs a torch and pitchfork> Alright!! Where do we go?!?!

;) :p


It must be a relief to know that this was the work of one possibly misunderstanding person and not an outright rejection from the entire group! I suppose there are two pieces of good news. First, you still have "another chance" and two, this will serve as a learning opportunity for people (like this regional coordinator lady) who either don't understand or don't like AI.


Good for you, Adrienne! We look forward to a great finish!


PNAM,

.....Kelly :)

[Jill1228]

I'll help! it has been a good long time since I have been in a street fight! :D

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
Yay!

Would it help if GC offered to go kick that one officer's butt?

[aephi alum]

What good news... I'm so happy for you! :)

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Hopefully, this situation will be resolved soon. Best of luck!

[daoine]

Originally posted by adduncan

Something sketchy happened and several people are getting to the bottom of it. There are some **angry** chapter members on the phone to national. I pity the national officers with some of the calls and emails they're getting.


It really sucks that you found out how much people liked you the *hard* way, but I think it's fair to say that you've made quite an impression, and therefore rock. :)

Crossin' my fingers for ya.

[adduncan]

OK, folks, the word came in tonight.

Long story short, there was some argument from within the chapter whether they were in favor of AI at all or not. FYI, there was NO indication to me that there was any kind of conflict over anything. And **if** I am permitted to pursue this org again, I have to wait YEARS. One year took enough out of my psyche. So like I said earlier, the journey has come to an end.

As I promised way back when, here is my entire AI journey story, with names included.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once I learned that AI was even a possibility, I went back to square one and researched every woman’s GLO I could find. I clarified specifically for myself what I wanted in an org, and what I wanted to contribute. I came up with this:
1) An organization with structured collegiate AND alumnae involvement, so there could be a chance, now and in the future to mentor young people in college. (I’m really big on teaching, always have been.)
2) An org with alumnae already established in the area. Alumnae are the people I’m going to be working, identifying, supporting, and networking with. Therefore, I figured it would be frustrating to be initiated into an org if there are few to no other alums in the area.
3) A national philanthropy I could relate to personally. This is pretty broad but socializing is only one aspect of the sisterhood I was looking for—making a positive difference in your community is (IMHO) essential to any public org.

It was a struggle to pick just ONE org to pursue, especially because I could identify with something in each org. But eventually I settled on Delta Delta Delta to pursue first. TriDelta’s philanthropy is children’s cancer research, literally right up my alley. They also have chapters (collegiate and alum) reasonably close. And I couldn’t help but be attracted to an org founded by fellow Boston U students. ;)
With CP2K’s help, I drafted an introductory letter and sent it to national. Within a couple of days I received a wonderful email from a national coordinator who told me the name of a local alum chapter prez. We talked on the phone, even, to discuss the process, exchange some information—and learned that the prez would be contacting me. Given that it was the end of the year (2002) and that meant holidays and Founders’ Day, I didn’t expect a response on the spot. Finally, in February I sent a polite “reminder” email that I had not heard anything yet. That month brought a cheerful phone call from the local alum prez. It was a blast; we knew some of the same people, had similar interests and I thought we were off to a great start. She promised to round up some other alums to have lunch and “get to know” each other. (Let’s be real, this is an interview, but I knew and expected that.) We kept the month of March open for this.

March came and went.

And then all of my phone calls went unanswered. So did my emails. Even to the contact I made at national.

Absoultely nothing, for MONTHS of patient waiting. Now I may be naïve in some things but I do know when to take a hint. DDD was not to be my home and it was time to move on.

For all of you alums and future alums out there: DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!! Getting ignored is insulting to the PNAM and reflects badly on your org!!! It is entirely possible that I made a poor impression at some point. Or maybe the chapter wasn’t in favor of AI. Or maybe she didn’t like someone I was close to. I’ll never know, because no one ever told me.

----

OK, moving on to GLO number 2, Gamma Phi Beta. Again, met the criteria I set for myself: philanthropy is camping for girls, another activity very close to my heart. Same process, contact national, state my intentions, and ask who to contact. Now these people are on the ball! Had several possible groups for me to talk to within 24 hours, and a request that I contact them again if they don’t write back. Another 24 hours and I had an email back from the prez of the nearest alum chapter with an invitation to their upcoming dinner party.

This dinner party was the first chance I had to see an alum group in action. Very welcoming group, and gracious to this new visitor. This was the first time I saw the depth of the sisterhood bonds—spanning across nations and generations and the differences did not separate them. The youngest there was in her 20s, the oldest over 80! The defining moment, where I felt I could truly understand what a lifelong sisterhood was, was when they sang their grace before dinner. All of these women, from all over the USA, with a 60-year age span, all knew the same song. Each one learned it in a different time and place, and attached different memories to it, yet it still meant the same thing. It’s hard to explain but that moment crystallized what I was pursuing in my mind.

I didn’t think it went too badly for an initial visit. In fact, it didn’t go badly at all. But…as incredible as it sounds, there was no big mental “click” that let you know that this would be the place to settle in. I can’t put my finger on what was missing, but I didn’t’ feel I could try to put roots down until I had looked at other orgs I was interested in. After the summer was over, I hadn’t heard back from them. Maybe they felt the same way. But in this case, I got a fair first-shot and everything about my inquiry was handled promptly and with dignity. Absolutely nothing negative here.

----

Another GLO I wanted to meet was Kappa Alpha Theta. Both of my sisters-in-law (who are essentially sisters to me except that we have different parents) became members in college and they made it REALLY clear that if I wanted to pursue Theta, they would pave the way. I didn’t know much about them until my SILs directed me to their website and shared their own experiences with me. I was surprised to learn how active they are in my area and their support of CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocates). Another issue I have experience with and a love for.

My younger SIL put in a phone call to a buddy of hers at the national office to inquire on my behalf. You have to know Cindy to know when this woman wants something done it would take a nuclear explosion to distract her. The national officer, however, discouraged her from putting me through the AI gauntlet w/ Theta. It seems that Theta is one of those orgs that is on the “closed” end of the spectrum when it comes to AI. (Not making a judgment on whether that’s good or bad, just saying that’s the way it is.) According to my SIL, their criteria for AI came down to the following:
--a faculty member or wife thereof of a college/university
--someone from a colony that was chartered as Theta after she graduated
--when there isn’t enough alumna support in the area
--a celebrity

In my case, I happened to live in a city with one of the strongest Theta alum chapters in the org, so they didn’t “need” to AI me. I never ended up meeting the chapter. To Cindy, that was enough of a nuclear explosion to throw her off the scent. I wasn’t happy about that, but I greatly respected the fact that they were very up-front about their policies and didn’t mince words or mislead me, even inadvertently.

----

The last org was a surprise even to me. Around April-ish of this year, there were a few threads running about why post-collegiate women are interested in Greek life. I posted on a couple of those, hinting at some of the very personal things I put in my introduction letters. I received a PM from someone I now consider one of my bestest buddies asking if I would consider her meeting her org, as she thought there would be a good match there. I’m thinking, “hey, sure, what could it hurt?” I sent my intro letter to her colleague who had quite a bit of experience with AI. Time for another meeting with a new group.

Do you know how it is, when you come home from work, you drop your briefcase, kick off your shoes, pick up the mail, and grab something out of the fridge, without even thinking about the actions because you are so accustomed to your home you don’t have to put any effort into it? That is what this meeting was like! Being in this stranger’s home with 3 dozen new women was like walking into my own home with people I’ve known forever.

CLICK!

Everyone there was positive about AI, even if they were just hearing of it. At the end of the night my new friend who escorted me to the meeting fielded all of my questions and asked me to contact her if I wanted to go forward with the process, acknowledging that I had been exploring several orgs looking for the right fit. I decided to go ahead and process the paperwork. Summer passed, and the pursuit continued into September.

Unfortunately, you know the rest of this story as well. What was originally received very positively by the chapter, and even by at least one member of EO, was shot in the foot by a regional officer due to some conflicts within the chapter that I am still not clear on.

This was Delta Gamma.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beating a dead horse: I'm dead tired, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, the works. I haven't felt like this since I split up with my first serious boyfriend--after we had talked about marriage, our parents had met, etc. I don't have the energy - the guts - to do this again.

As time passes, that may change. I just dont' see it at the moment. It's humiliating to get THAT many rejections over that amount of time. I'd wear myself out if I got into the "what's WRONG with me?" thinking. If an org came to me to meet them, that would be doable, but we know that isn't necessarily a reasonable expectation. I do want the bonding that only a GLO can provide. I just don't want the process that goes with it. I feel like I've been hazed.

Again--thanks everyone. I honestly mean it. I really will get to all of those PMs, I promise. And I will still promote Greek life in whatever humble way I can. (Just this past Thursday evening I got into a conversation with a kid from the Boston U development office--I told her that every day I wish I went Greek and if she still has the chance to not let it go by!)

We'll see what happens as time goes by. I'm not going anywhere, just in low gear. Feel free to PM or email.

{{{GC}}}
Adrienne

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

wow.

I'm sorry, A. I really am.

I'm also not convinced this is the last chapter....

[navane]

I think HotDamnImAPhiMu took the words right out of my mouth.


:(


<PNAM Hugs>


.....Kelly :(

[navane]

Hey kittyuk, maybe we can make Adrienne a member of LBS?

:p


.....Kelly :)

[Tom Earp]

Frustration and depression is like the Sun going down in the Western Sky!

Hope Springs Eternal as the Sun Comes up in the East.

While your travels have proved fruitless so far, never give up Hope.

As has been said, AI is such a new thing to many Greek Organizations and hard to comprehend for that who have only seen Recruitment at the Collegiate Level!

Just take a break for a bit and a second breath, count to 10 and dont give up Hope! :)

[pinkyphimu]

adrienne,

thank you for sharing your story with us. i know that your road was long and difficult. if i were in the same situation, i would definately take a break from pursuing ai. give yourself time to heal and then who knows what will happen. i am truly sorry that you have been through so many ups and downs.

[Sistermadly]

Adrienne,

You know all too well how I feel about this. I feel as if we've shared the pursuit of Alumna Initiation together, even though we researched different groups. You are a phenomenal woman - and whatever charitable/social organization you decide to devote your time and talents to will be made richer for it. You should be commended for your resillience, openness, and tenacity. It speaks volumes to the kind of woman you truly are.

To All the Sorority Women on GC:

If your organization does not have a standardized, carved in black-and-white policy on Alumna Initiation - fight for one. We alumna initiates know all too well that the process can vary from city to city -- hell, it can vary from initiation to initiation! We know and understand the NPC policy on mutual selection. But I get the feeling that the membership process for collegians is more firmly structured than it is for alumna initiates. This lack of structure and inconsistency is frustrating for the PNAM and for her sponsor. It shouldn't have to be this way.

Take the time to educate your members on alumna initiation. If you are a collegian, bring it up in your chapter meetings. If you are an alumna, bring it up at alumna events.

If you are an alumna initiate - let everyone know WITH PRIDE that you are an alumna initiate of your organization! In a way, it's kind of like coming out of the closet for gay people - people are more tolerant and less ignorant of things when they know someone personally who has gone through the process.

My heart is breaking for Adrienne right now, as I'm sure are all of yours. We always tell PNMs that things happen for a reason, and maybe this happened for a reason - maybe there's something greater out there for you that's waiting just over the horizon. Good luck to you - and know that we are always here for you, no matter what.

[aephi alum]

Adrienne,

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

I scarcely know what to say. You've been through a lot in your pursuit of AI. Maybe the best thing for you to do is take a step back and regroup. Don't close the door entirely! There are still 22 more NPC groups out there (well, 21 since AEPhi doesn't do AI), or maybe a non-NPC group is right for you.

Take care. :)

[AchtungBaby80]

First I'd just like to say that I'm sorry, Adrienne...it sounds like you've been to Hell and back on the scenic route, and I'm really impressed that you've kept your positive outlook on Greek life. Thank you.

However...this makes me wonder. What would happen if a collegiate PNM was treated like this (i.e. made to think that she would likely be initiated into an organization when that wasn't the case)? Now, I'm not faulting the individual organizations, since a number of factors could've been working behind the scenes and it seems that not a lot of people are really familiar with how AI works. But I do think it's sad that alumnae initiates aren't given more respect, because I think AI is a good thing.

[adduncan]

Originally posted by Sistermadly

But I get the feeling that the membership process for collegians is more firmly structured than it is for alumna initiates. This lack of structure and inconsistency is frustrating for the PNAM and for her sponsor. It shouldn't have to be this way.

Take the time to educate your members on alumna initiation.


Thanx, Sistermadly. I agree the NPC as a whole has a lot to learn about AI and I think the first place they should go for their lesson is the NPHC.

But in addition to the points you made in your post, there's also the issue of enforcement, if that's the word. In my situation, while most people I met were in favor of my induction, there were allegedly a select few who chose to circumvent the (extremely well-publicised) processes and standards for their own agendas. My potential contributions to the fraternity and my feelings were not an issue for them.

In addition to setting policy and guidelines, it's also a matter of changing hearts.

Adrienne

[BadSquirrelBeta]

I am just heart broken reading your thread, but I just wanted to encourage you, please don't give up. Take some time to clear your head, as you have been saying, but please don't give up.

I am so sorry. Please know that the crew on GC is here for you.

[dzandiloo]

This just makes me so sad, and I agree that NPC groups do have alot to learn about AI. Even in my own organization, I hear about drastically different attitudes on the subject. I pledged in a community that LOVED alum initiates (DZ & Alpha Gam constantly initiated women from the community), and even today, I am sponsoring 2 women for AI, in a town that doesn't have a collegiate chapter. But I've heard of alum chapters in towns with established groups & collegiate chapters that aren't so open-minded about it...women who have trouble understanding why anyone would want to be initiated as an alum.... I am often surprised by the number of times we've discussed this on Surfing Sisters where someone will mention they're sponsoring someone, and people will post that they've never even heard of the possibility of AI.

I guess its just going to take some more time...even for those orgs that strongly encourage AI, to make it more mainstream & less unusual.

Adrienne-you have put so much energy into your search--I can't even come close to knowing how this has made you feel...and I can't speak for everyone, I've never met you, but your diligence is commendable. Keep your chin up, take a deep breath. We're here for you!

[JohnsDGsweethrt]

Adrienne I had so wished to call you my sister and all of this still leaves me feeling :confused: :eek: but mostly :( X 10. I wish all of this would have worked out. :(

[JennRN]

Originally posted by BadSquirrelBeta
I am just heart broken reading your thread, but I just wanted to encourage you, please don't give up. Take some time to clear your head, as you have been saying, but please don't give up.

I am so sorry. Please know that the crew on GC is here for you.

Adrienne, I just want to echo what was said here. My heart is sad for you-take some time for yourself to heal and recouperate-but you would be such an asset, please don't give up!!

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by adduncan
OK, folks, the word came in tonight.

Long story short, there was some argument from within the chapter whether they were in favor of AI at all or not. FYI, there was NO indication to me that there was any kind of conflict over anything. And **if** I am permitted to pursue this org again, I have to wait YEARS. One year took enough out of my psyche. So like I said earlier, the journey has come to an end.

As I promised way back when, here is my entire AI journey story, with names included.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once I learned that AI was even a possibility, I went back to square one and researched every woman’s GLO I could find. I clarified specifically for myself what I wanted in an org, and what I wanted to contribute. I came up with this:
1) An organization with structured collegiate AND alumnae involvement, so there could be a chance, now and in the future to mentor young people in college. (I’m really big on teaching, always have been.)
2) An org with alumnae already established in the area. Alumnae are the people I’m going to be working, identifying, supporting, and networking with. Therefore, I figured it would be frustrating to be initiated into an org if there are few to no other alums in the area.
3) A national philanthropy I could relate to personally. This is pretty broad but socializing is only one aspect of the sisterhood I was looking for—making a positive difference in your community is (IMHO) essential to any public org.

It was a struggle to pick just ONE org to pursue, especially because I could identify with something in each org. But eventually I settled on Delta Delta Delta to pursue first. TriDelta’s philanthropy is children’s cancer research, literally right up my alley. They also have chapters (collegiate and alum) reasonably close. And I couldn’t help but be attracted to an org founded by fellow Boston U students. ;)
With CP2K’s help, I drafted an introductory letter and sent it to national. Within a couple of days I received a wonderful email from a national coordinator who told me the name of a local alum chapter prez. We talked on the phone, even, to discuss the process, exchange some information—and learned that the prez would be contacting me. Given that it was the end of the year (2002) and that meant holidays and Founders’ Day, I didn’t expect a response on the spot. Finally, in February I sent a polite “reminder” email that I had not heard anything yet. That month brought a cheerful phone call from the local alum prez. It was a blast; we knew some of the same people, had similar interests and I thought we were off to a great start. She promised to round up some other alums to have lunch and “get to know” each other. (Let’s be real, this is an interview, but I knew and expected that.) We kept the month of March open for this.

March came and went.

And then all of my phone calls went unanswered. So did my emails. Even to the contact I made at national.

Absoultely nothing, for MONTHS of patient waiting. Now I may be naïve in some things but I do know when to take a hint. DDD was not to be my home and it was time to move on.

For all of you alums and future alums out there: DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!! Getting ignored is insulting to the PNAM and reflects badly on your org!!! It is entirely possible that I made a poor impression at some point. Or maybe the chapter wasn’t in favor of AI. Or maybe she didn’t like someone I was close to. I’ll never know, because no one ever told me.

----

OK, moving on to GLO number 2, Gamma Phi Beta. Again, met the criteria I set for myself: philanthropy is camping for girls, another activity very close to my heart. Same process, contact national, state my intentions, and ask who to contact. Now these people are on the ball! Had several possible groups for me to talk to within 24 hours, and a request that I contact them again if they don’t write back. Another 24 hours and I had an email back from the prez of the nearest alum chapter with an invitation to their upcoming dinner party.

This dinner party was the first chance I had to see an alum group in action. Very welcoming group, and gracious to this new visitor. This was the first time I saw the depth of the sisterhood bonds—spanning across nations and generations and the differences did not separate them. The youngest there was in her 20s, the oldest over 80! The defining moment, where I felt I could truly understand what a lifelong sisterhood was, was when they sang their grace before dinner. All of these women, from all over the USA, with a 60-year age span, all knew the same song. Each one learned it in a different time and place, and attached different memories to it, yet it still meant the same thing. It’s hard to explain but that moment crystallized what I was pursuing in my mind.

I didn’t think it went too badly for an initial visit. In fact, it didn’t go badly at all. But…as incredible as it sounds, there was no big mental “click” that let you know that this would be the place to settle in. I can’t put my finger on what was missing, but I didn’t’ feel I could try to put roots down until I had looked at other orgs I was interested in. After the summer was over, I hadn’t heard back from them. Maybe they felt the same way. But in this case, I got a fair first-shot and everything about my inquiry was handled promptly and with dignity. Absolutely nothing negative here.

----

Another GLO I wanted to meet was Kappa Alpha Theta. Both of my sisters-in-law (who are essentially sisters to me except that we have different parents) became members in college and they made it REALLY clear that if I wanted to pursue Theta, they would pave the way. I didn’t know much about them until my SILs directed me to their website and shared their own experiences with me. I was surprised to learn how active they are in my area and their support of CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocates). Another issue I have experience with and a love for.

My younger SIL put in a phone call to a buddy of hers at the national office to inquire on my behalf. You have to know Cindy to know when this woman wants something done it would take a nuclear explosion to distract her. The national officer, however, discouraged her from putting me through the AI gauntlet w/ Theta. It seems that Theta is one of those orgs that is on the “closed” end of the spectrum when it comes to AI. (Not making a judgment on whether that’s good or bad, just saying that’s the way it is.) According to my SIL, their criteria for AI came down to the following:
--a faculty member or wife thereof of a college/university
--someone from a colony that was chartered as Theta after she graduated
--when there isn’t enough alumna support in the area
--a celebrity

In my case, I happened to live in a city with one of the strongest Theta alum chapters in the org, so they didn’t “need” to AI me. I never ended up meeting the chapter. To Cindy, that was enough of a nuclear explosion to throw her off the scent. I wasn’t happy about that, but I greatly respected the fact that they were very up-front about their policies and didn’t mince words or mislead me, even inadvertently.

----

The last org was a surprise even to me. Around April-ish of this year, there were a few threads running about why post-collegiate women are interested in Greek life. I posted on a couple of those, hinting at some of the very personal things I put in my introduction letters. I received a PM from someone I now consider one of my bestest buddies asking if I would consider her meeting her org, as she thought there would be a good match there. I’m thinking, “hey, sure, what could it hurt?” I sent my intro letter to her colleague who had quite a bit of experience with AI. Time for another meeting with a new group.

Do you know how it is, when you come home from work, you drop your briefcase, kick off your shoes, pick up the mail, and grab something out of the fridge, without even thinking about the actions because you are so accustomed to your home you don’t have to put any effort into it? That is what this meeting was like! Being in this stranger’s home with 3 dozen new women was like walking into my own home with people I’ve known forever.

CLICK!

Everyone there was positive about AI, even if they were just hearing of it. At the end of the night my new friend who escorted me to the meeting fielded all of my questions and asked me to contact her if I wanted to go forward with the process, acknowledging that I had been exploring several orgs looking for the right fit. I decided to go ahead and process the paperwork. Summer passed, and the pursuit continued into September.

Unfortunately, you know the rest of this story as well. What was originally received very positively by the chapter, and even by at least one member of EO, was shot in the foot by a regional officer due to some conflicts within the chapter that I am still not clear on.

This was Delta Gamma.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beating a dead horse: I'm dead tired, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, the works. I haven't felt like this since I split up with my first serious boyfriend--after we had talked about marriage, our parents had met, etc. I don't have the energy - the guts - to do this again.

As time passes, that may change. I just dont' see it at the moment. It's humiliating to get THAT many rejections over that amount of time. I'd wear myself out if I got into the "what's WRONG with me?" thinking. If an org came to me to meet them, that would be doable, but we know that isn't necessarily a reasonable expectation. I do want the bonding that only a GLO can provide. I just don't want the process that goes with it. I feel like I've been hazed.

Again--thanks everyone. I honestly mean it. I really will get to all of those PMs, I promise. And I will still promote Greek life in whatever humble way I can. (Just this past Thursday evening I got into a conversation with a kid from the Boston U development office--I told her that every day I wish I went Greek and if she still has the chance to not let it go by!)

We'll see what happens as time goes by. I'm not going anywhere, just in low gear. Feel free to PM or email.

{{{GC}}}
Adrienne

Hi.

[Lil' Hannah]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Hi.

Hey. (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48423)

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL433/1038115/5148622/68134491.jpg

[lauralaylin]

That link doesn't work, there's an "L" in front of it. :)

[Jen]

Here's the link - http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48423

[ms_gwyn]

you also may want to look at
this thread (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57188)

[Lil' Hannah]

Originally posted by ms_gwyn
you also may want to look at
this thread (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57188)

Yes, after shopping around at several other GLOs, she was offered membership in a GLO she hadn't even considered. Sounds a lot like AI for the sake of AI to me.

[ms_gwyn]

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
Yes, after shopping around at several other GLOs, she was offered membership in a GLO she hadn't even considered. Sounds a lot like AI for the sake of AI to me.

If that is the way you want to view it...is your prerogative.

Personally, I don’t see it that way. A member of a GLO after some time and heartbreak, Pm’ed her with an opportunity that I think most would explore, I am sure they knew her situation. It looks like she fit with the AC and the rest is history. AI is about getting into that organization, but its also about fitting in WITH THE ALUMNAE CHAPTER, no matter how much you know that a GLO is for you, if you don’t fit with the AC you are not going to be offered the opportunity to pursue AI in that org. PERIOD.

Am not going to argue the point, I keep repeating myself. As much as AI and new member recruitment is not the same, in a lot of ways it is the same. I see nothing wrong with looking around and finding the group that fits you and the group believing that the potential AI fits them. She made a list, unless you know 100% that her org is not on that list, you can’t say…AI for the sake of AI, that is an insult to her, me and a lot of AIs and potential AIs.

Untilyou walk a mile in someone’s shoes, you can not say you know what they’ve gone through.

We can also agree to disagree.

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
Yes, after shopping around at several other GLOs, she was offered membership in a GLO she hadn't even considered. Sounds a lot like AI for the sake of AI to me. Yes, but, isn't that how it ends up for a lot of AIs? For example, when we installed our colony as a chapter at Greensboro College, we initiated some faculty members as they would become advisors. AFAIK, these women had not previously considered joining a sorority, and the opportunity was dropped in their lap.

I don't know if they had previously looked into AI with AXiD or even with someone else, and quite frankly, I really don't care. What matters is that they are now my sisters and they are volunteering their time to the sorority, which is more than I can say for the rest of the girls in my own pledge class who, after only four days of looking at the five other sororities on our campus, chose Alpha Xi. It's obvious that unless an unexpected invitation is extended to an AI, some women have spent years pursuing the group they want.

We constantly remind our PNMs that it's a mutual selection process. Well, I think it's safe to say the same holds true for our AIs.

To everyone who is against "sorority shopping" -- in your opinion, how many groups is too many to look at when searching? Should our AIs only pick one group to pursue, and if it doesn't work out, so be it?

[adduncan]

Thank you, ms_gwyn.

I've been MIA for a few months now due to pregnancy and other life issues (including holding a new office in my AC). I only noticed the recent AI drama when I got an automated email notice that people were adding to this thread.

You're right, there is a lot of insulting in those latest posts. But insulting AIs (including me) is just the tip of the iceberg.

Valkyrie et al are also insulting:


sageofages - Pam Backstrom, a former national chairman who had investigated me quite thoroughly before asking me to consider Phi Mu. She was also my guide through initiation.
Both the Alpha Pi and Theta Zeta collegiate chapters of Phi Mu. Both of which were willing to sponsor me. (Please read the "A New Hope" thread for the reason why this process began in one city and ended up in another.
Both the Houston and Greater North Fulton alumnae chapters who were willing to sponsor me for membership.
All of the above knew the details of this pursuit, including in these posts, and all of them had met me in person.

And most of all, they are insulting.....

The National Council of Phi Mu who ultimately made the decision to issue my bid.


That's a lot of insults to lob around at people you've never met, or even PM'ed! (No, none of these people approached me with their issues. Suprised? I'm not.) The two eldest individuals involved in this little tempest in a toilet bowl are both Alpha Phi AIs. I wonder what part of the Alpha Phi creed this behaviour falls under?

So if there are any PHI MUs who doubt my sincerity as a sister and the process that got me there I'll be at the new HQ dedication at the end of September. Feel free to cross-examine me to your hearts' content. As the content of these posts confirm, I've never had anything to hide. I don't need to rely on e-courage to make my point.

Now since my OB has advised me to lay off the stress, I'm out of here. Those who know me know how to contact me.

Adrienne Duncan
President, Greater North Fulton Alumnae of Phi Mu
www.northfultonphimu.com

[Lil' Hannah]

The example you provided with faculty members being initiated is nothing like what we see here on GC. And I'm not insinuating that AIs can't be valuable, hardworking members of the sorority. I personally am very proud of the AI DGs that I've met on GC. Hell I'm proud of a lot of the AI women on GC.

I guess it seems that some bad apples are spoiling the bunch, perhaps? We see lots and lots of women who research, use the correct avenues, and use our favorite buzzword - discretion. But not all are like that and I think that's what has been bothering a lot of GCers about the AI forum.

In response to your question: "Should our AIs only pick one group to pursue, and if it doesn't work out, so be it?" There is nothing stopping a woman from persuing AI at a later time with that org. If you loved basketball, if it was your favorite game and basketball was in your heart but you got cut from the team, would you suddenly take up cheerleading? No, you'd work on your game in the off season and come back for try-outs next year.

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Actually being contacted by the org and invited to meet the women is EXACTLY how AI is supposed to work in an ideal situation (which nothing is ever ideal). That is the preferred method.

It would be a little different (at least for me personally) if the woman contacting her had been part of a group who had already said no, but I doubt this is the case.

Ok, here is how I would recommend someone approach AI who is looking at it without an inside "pull". That is without knowing someone already in the group.

1) You research all 26 of the organizations and narrow it down to the few (4 or 5) that have values that mirror yours or speak to you.

2) Determine if those groups do AI. If it's a group where AI is VERY rare and you don't personally know a member of the group then I wouldn't waste the time.

3) You find out if those orgs have alumnae chapters near you. If they don't, then what's the point.

4) Get the contact info for those groups and contact them. Develop a list of questions that will help you further narrow the groups.

5) Attend an event if possible, but don't waste their time if you are still undecided.

6) Find the ONE that you want and devote time to that group getting to know them.

My AC requires our AI's to attend a number of our events to show their commitment. If that woman is doing the same for a number of groups, she's going to be VERY busy.

[WCUgirl]

Maybe it's b/c I haven't been on GC as long as some others, but other than mshoole (who we don't even know if she ever WAS initiated), but I haven't seen any "bad apples." Who are they?

[Tom Earp]

A very good explanation.

It does and can happen.:)

To may proof of the puddings on GC!

[33girl]

Originally posted by AXiD670
Maybe it's b/c I haven't been on GC as long as some others, but other than mshoole (who we don't even know if she ever WAS initiated)

She was not.

Thank you for providing me with a way to clear that up without my being unnecessarily mean. :)

[Rudey]

Don't worry. She has a history of insulting others and making false claims. She has put down GC before and is a pro at playing the victim.

-Rudey

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
The example you provided with faculty members being initiated is nothing like what we see here on GC. And I'm not insinuating that AIs can't be valuable, hardworking members of the sorority. I personally am very proud of the AI DGs that I've met on GC. Hell I'm proud of a lot of the AI women on GC.

I guess it seems that some bad apples are spoiling the bunch, perhaps? We see lots and lots of women who research, use the correct avenues, and use our favorite buzzword - discretion. But not all are like that and I think that's what has been bothering a lot of GCers about the AI forum.

In response to your question: "Should our AIs only pick one group to pursue, and if it doesn't work out, so be it?" There is nothing stopping a woman from persuing AI at a later time with that org. If you loved basketball, if it was your favorite game and basketball was in your heart but you got cut from the team, would you suddenly take up cheerleading? No, you'd work on your game in the off season and come back for try-outs next year.

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by adduncan

That's a lot of insults to lob around at people you've never met, or even PM'ed! (No, none of these people approached me with their issues. Suprised? I'm not.) The two eldest individuals involved in this little tempest in a toilet bowl are both Alpha Phi AIs. I wonder what part of the Alpha Phi creed this behaviour falls under?

Hold up.

HOLD. UP.

Adrienne, you know I consider you a friend an ally, and I held your hand through a lot of the stuff that happened prior to your becoming a Phi Mu. But you were TOTALLY out of line by questioning the Alpha Phi Creed. What is in that Creed and whether or not members of my Fraternity live up to that is none of your concern.

I understand that your feelings were hurt. I get that. But as I said in a message to you earlier, the actions of individuals should, in NO way, reflect on the mission, policies, and procedures of Alpha Phi International Fraternity.

Damn. Don't go stepping on my crest, and I won't go stepping on yours.

[midwesterngirl]

Originally posted by adduncan


That's a lot of insults to lob around at people you've never met, or even PM'ed! (No, none of these people approached me with their issues. Suprised? I'm not.) The two eldest individuals involved in this little tempest in a toilet bowl are both Alpha Phi AIs. I wonder what part of the Alpha Phi creed this behaviour falls under?

[/B]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
Hold up.

HOLD. UP.

Adrienne, you know I consider you a friend an ally, and I held your hand through a lot of the stuff that happened prior to your becoming a Phi Mu. But you were TOTALLY out of line by questioning the Alpha Phi Creed. What is in that Creed and whether or not members of my Fraternity live up to that is none of your concern.

I understand that your feelings were hurt. I get that. But as I said in a message to you earlier, the actions of individuals should, in NO way, reflect on the mission, policies, and procedures of Alpha Phi International Fraternity.

Damn. Don't go stepping on my crest, and I won't go stepping on yours.

Valkyrie just bumped your thread,she didn't write it. People are going to see perceive it how they want to perceive it good or bad. That is totally beyond your control. Looking at the replies directly after she bumped it,there were two totally different interpretations. Aries just provided a correct link to a totally different thread.

Neither of these instances gives you any right to question the creed of my organization and whether or not any individual member lives up to it.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by adduncan
Thank you, ms_gwyn.

I've been MIA for a few months now due to pregnancy and other life issues (including holding a new office in my AC). I only noticed the recent AI drama when I got an automated email notice that people were adding to this thread.

You're right, there is a lot of insulting in those latest posts. But insulting AIs (including me) is just the tip of the iceberg.

Valkyrie et al are also insulting:


sageofages - Pam Backstrom, a former national chairman who had investigated me quite thoroughly before asking me to consider Phi Mu. She was also my guide through initiation.
Both the Alpha Pi and Theta Zeta collegiate chapters of Phi Mu. Both of which were willing to sponsor me. (Please read the "A New Hope" thread for the reason why this process began in one city and ended up in another.
Both the Houston and Greater North Fulton alumnae chapters who were willing to sponsor me for membership.
All of the above knew the details of this pursuit, including in these posts, and all of them had met me in person.

And most of all, they are insulting.....

The National Council of Phi Mu who ultimately made the decision to issue my bid.


That's a lot of insults to lob around at people you've never met, or even PM'ed! (No, none of these people approached me with their issues. Suprised? I'm not.) The two eldest individuals involved in this little tempest in a toilet bowl are both Alpha Phi AIs. I wonder what part of the Alpha Phi creed this behaviour falls under?

So if there are any PHI MUs who doubt my sincerity as a sister and the process that got me there I'll be at the new HQ dedication at the end of September. Feel free to cross-examine me to your hearts' content. As the content of these posts confirm, I've never had anything to hide. I don't need to rely on e-courage to make my point.

Now since my OB has advised me to lay off the stress, I'm out of here. Those who know me know how to contact me.

Adrienne Duncan
President, Greater North Fulton Alumnae of Phi Mu
www.northfultonphimu.com

Wow. Never have two little words accomplished so much insulting!

[ms_gwyn]

you open this can of worms

Now the above quote that you posted was a thank you to me and also a response to the person that I qouted (in terms of the word insult).

I BROUGHT the word insult in the picture, not directed at you, because you never clearly stated your pointed bumping of this thread. The intention is clear (but I could be mistaken). I understand why mshoole (or whatever) link was posted, but WHY was this thread bumped in the first place?

I will not speak for adrienne as I am not her and I hope she doesn't stress too much over this getting real ugly real quick. But the assumption made was uncalled for especially when if you read the other like that I posted.

I for one would love to hear your story of AI, if its in a thread, I would love the link.

(not directed at you personally, because I don't go after people, I go after posts)

But a lot of people have become very self-righteous in the context of this discussion (AI) and I have noticed it mostly coming from AIs, I would love to read your stories (I have read 1 that I know of off the top of my head).

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by ms_gwyn
I for one would love to hear your story of AI, if its in a thread, I would love the link.

(not directed at you personally, because I don't go after people, I go after posts)


You go after posts? So are you saying you'd like to hear my post's AI story?

ETA: You're right. I didn't state my intent when bumping this thread. So what? I'm not obligated to explain why I do anything. If people want to read into that and ASSUME things, they're welcome to do so.

[ms_gwyn]

Originally posted by valkyrie
You go after posts? So are you saying you'd like to hear my post's AI story?

In all honesty?

Yes, I love to hear how women found their home....is there anything wrong with that.....

but you still didn't answer my original question...I would also like that answered too.


In any of my posts in pertaining to this entire AI discussion, have I attacked anyone? If I have, I will admit that I am wrong, I have no problem doing that.

Also if you'd rather take it to PM's that is fine.

It doesn't need to continue in this thread....

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by ms_gwyn
In all honesty?

Yes, I love to hear how women found their home....is there anything wrong with that.....

but you still didn't answer my original question...I would also like that answered too.


In any of my posts in pertaining to this entire AI discussion, have I attacked anyone? If I have, I will admit that I am wrong, I have no problem doing that.

Also if you'd rather take it to PM's that is fine.

It doesn't need to continue in this thread....

Wait. You're asking me a question that you want answered, but then say it doesn't need to continue in this thread? I wouldn't rather take it to PMs because I have no reason to answer your question in the first place. Why do you care why I bumped this thread? Why do you think I owe you an explanation? I'm really not trying to be snotty -- I just don't understand why it matters to anyone. Are you over in the D&R forum asking James why he bumped about 900 threads the other day?

[ms_gwyn]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Wait. You're asking me a question that you want answered, but then say it doesn't need to continue in this thread? I wouldn't rather take it to PMs because I have no reason to answer your question in the first place. Why do you care why I bumped this thread? Why do you think I owe you an explanation? I'm really not trying to be snotty -- I just don't understand why it matters to anyone. Are you over in the D&R forum asking James why he bumped about 900 threads the other day?


no...but that thread is silly and humorous


With all the hoopla going on in this forum...I know there is a reason and I suspect WHY you did this....I find it really strange that you don't want to be honest and answer a question that caused a lot of stress on the creator of this thread.

But again that is your prerogative.

And the reason why I wanted this go to PMs because there really is no reason for this discussion to continue in a long dead thread that should not have been resurrected in the first place.

And I was also being sincere with wanting to hear your story, I have no ulterior motives in wanting to hear how you found your place in the wonderful sisterhood of Alpha Phi.

Oh and you're correct that you don't owe me an explanation. You owe that to adrienne. You can do that publically or privately. That is up to you.

[Jen]

Originally posted by ms_gwyn
And the reason why I wanted this go to PMs because there really is no reason for this discussion to continue in a long dead thread that should not have been resurrected in the first place.



Then please for the love of Dog stop posting in this thread and let it go away.

[ms_gwyn]

you may also want to suggest that to your sister.

I did offer to go to PMs, she rejected that offer.

[kddani]

Originally posted by ms_gwyn
Oh and you're correct that you don't owe me an explanation. You owe that to adrienne. You can do that publically or privately. That is up to you.

No, she doesn't owe anyone anything. If Adrienne would never want this thread resurrected then she should've deleted it or ask that it be locked. No one owns the threads on GC or has exclusive rights to them.

Again, like I said in the other thread, people want to assume things and find some way to be insulted, even when there was nothing there.

[Leslie Anne]

Oh come off it, you'd have to be a moron not to know exactly what bumping this thread meant.

[OTW]

Originally posted by Leslie Anne
Oh come off it, you'd have to be a moron not to know exactly what bumping this thread meant.

Jesus H. Christ, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?????!!!!??? We miss you!

There are AIs who don't even pursue AI who were contacted directly via members of XYZ sorority to become an AI because of their character, their past/current commitment to community service, and because these women reflect the ideals becoming of their organization.

I guess all pursuants can't be as lucky..

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by ms_gwyn
no...but that thread is silly and humorous


With all the hoopla going on in this forum...I know there is a reason and I suspect WHY you did this....I find it really strange that you don't want to be honest and answer a question that caused a lot of stress on the creator of this thread.

But again that is your prerogative.

And the reason why I wanted this go to PMs because there really is no reason for this discussion to continue in a long dead thread that should not have been resurrected in the first place.

And I was also being sincere with wanting to hear your story, I have no ulterior motives in wanting to hear how you found your place in the wonderful sisterhood of Alpha Phi.

Oh and you're correct that you don't owe me an explanation. You owe that to adrienne. You can do that publically or privately. That is up to you.

If you wanted this to go to PM, then take it there yourself. If valkryie doesn't respond, then she obviously doesn't.

She owes adrienne NO explanation. We are all entitled to our own opinions, like how you thought yours had relevance in this discussion.

[WCUgirl]

Many of these comments are completely uncalled for.

It's obvious people are just being rude for the sake of being rude. Everybody's going to have a different opinion on this topic, but there's no need to be bitches about it.

What a great way to ruin a fairly uneventful thread and somewhat informative thread.

edited to fix a type-o