NPHC BGLO's how do you feel about non NPHC BGLO's

[TrueGreekLove]

I have noticed other sororities and fraternities out there that call themselves the new greek alliance..how do the members of the NPHC BGLO's feel about this other orgs out there such as A PHI Q etc. etc. Who also have hand signs, calls and participate in step shows as well ???

[Serenity]

I just need some clarification about your post. Are you saying that Alpha Phi Omega, a service organization, calls themselves A Phi Q's, participate in step shows and have hand signs? If so, is this a relatively new thing?

In college I knew several individuals who pledged APO because it was not a social organization. If you can be in a service organization and a social organization, why would a service organization need to function as a social organization?

Correct me if I am misunderstanding your post! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

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Sincerity, Loyalty, Unity
Sigma Lambda Upsilon: Hasta La Muerte!

[SapphireSensation]

Peace & Love,
To Serenity:
when I pledged Zeta, there were APOs on my campus, an HBCU, and they stepped and had hand signs. This was in 1991. They were also all men and their sister org. was Gamma Sigma Sigma. The were allowed to step at shows but were not eligible to win because they weren't NPHC, much like the band frat and sorority.

To respond to the question on the floor.
I have no ill will toward non-NPHC BLGOs.
If it is your desire to serve the community, then so be it. As long as you join for the right reasons and stay committed, I don't have a problem with you.
SapphireSensation
13-ThB-91
DMZDiva

[Serenity]

Thanks SapphireSensation! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Wow! I thought this may have been a new thing. (I graduated in 1994). On my campus, APO was co-ed and strictly service only. It wasn't considered a BGLO; the members were predominately white. We (SLU) did many community service projects with them. I wonder if their function changes by region or maybe even by chapter. Is that possible with service organizations?

------------------
Sincerity, Loyalty, Unity
Sigma Lambda Upsilon: Hasta La Muerte!

[This message has been edited by Serenity (edited July 02, 2000).]

[HER_STORY]

when i was in school (hbcu) we a apo's and they stepped, had calls and had line names. when ever we had step shows there was a greek part and a non greek part.

[33girl]

To all: see my post on the "PFA vs. NPHC..." thread on this topic.

At some HBCU's A-Phi-O has been calling themselves "A-Phi-Q" for a while, at least 15 years anyway!!

APO & GSS ARE NOT BGLO's. Period. Not on a national basis, at least.

[Rain Man]

Since this discussion has begun to center around Alpha Phi Omega/A Phi Q, I found it only fitting for me to put in my $19.25.

I pledged Alpha Phi Omega in 1992 and presently serve as an alumni brother. While I did not pledge at an HBCU, my pledging was very similar (the chapter was an all-black-male chapter).

Yes, the "A-Phi-Qs" step, has hand signs and calls, etc. We also recognize Gamma Sigma Sigma as our sister sorority (the "mainstream" brothers by & large do not).

I say all that to say this: I wholeheartedly commend the members of Pan Hell GLOs who respect and treat brothers from non-Pan-Hell GLOs, be it black (Gamma Phi Eta, Phi Delta Psi, Xi Gamma Phi, Delta Psi Epsilon), or mainstream (Alpha Phi Omega, Gamma Sigma Sigma, Kappa Kappa Psi, Tau Beta Sigma, Phi Mu Alpha).

While I do not personally have any beef with members of any of the Pan Hell GLOs (I am treated like family locally), I have came to the conclusion that based on prior experience (reading numerous guestbooks, chat room debates, personal discussions, etc), the NPHC as a whole tends to have a very ****y, aloof, arrogant, and sometimes beaugarde-ish (sp?) attitude when it comes to dealing with non-NPHC GLOs (An exception to this case would be Iota Phi Theta; IMHO Iota having dealt with similar experiences prior to being an NPHC member may have humbled them significantly. And this disrespect sickens me to the Nth degree. No one GLO is superior to another. I have been to social functions hosted by and primarily for non NPHC members where an NPHC org would show up and just start beaugardeing the brothers/sisters. Fights may not start, but tension was definately in the air.

Currently there is another Black Greek Council called the National Greek Alliance (NGA), but I don't think it will be as big as the NPHC on a grand scale. The consensus of most of the member orgs pretty much share my aforementioned concern. The common denominator on all these orgs founding was that they didn't agree with what the NPHC orgs on campus were doing at the time

Don't get me wrong. I support all NPHC organizations and their purposes. I plan on joining an alumni chapter of a NPHC org someday, so I am not anti-NPHC. I am anti-arrogant-attitude-that-comes-from-NPHC.

Thank you to all those who have showed me and my frat & other fraternities and sororities like us love. It was not in vain.

I'm outta here

Da Rain Man

"To business, to business, to business...."

-A very tipsy Alex Trebek on the last
episode of High Rollers (6/20/80)

[icytre]

Rainman,
I am sorry to hear about your experiences in a negative manner. I can understand what you are saying because we as NPHC organizations sometimes beaugarde each other. Most times its just in fun, but it sometimes ends up in violence.

I know alot people who feel like "The Divine Nine" are as diverse as it should get. That might be why they appear to be arrongant or pompous.

I will say that I commend anyone for starting something new. I say the more the merrier. I will hope that there is a limit at some point though.

[sugahbee]

OK, I am confused because at my school Alpha Phi Omega is a business fraternity. I am a member of Alpha PI Omega Sorority, Inc.--which is the 1st Native American Sorority in the nation. Although we aren't an african-american organziation, we have our own call and hand sign, but we don't step. As with all other greek organizations I'm sure, our call and our signs have sacred meanings that promote the sisterhood. We also have an organization on our campus that has a call, line names, line numbers, and probates, but they aren't an NPHC organization. Just wanted to inform a little!

Spr 00
Alpha chapter--Alpha Pi Omega Sorority, Inc.

[sugahbee]

Oops! I meant to say in my earlier reply that there is an organization on our campus that probates, has line names, etc; just to clarify!

[AlphaChiGirl]

Tell me straight out if I'm not supposed to know, but what is a Probate? The only thing that comes to mind for me is something having to do with Estate Law. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

[ZetaAce]

Originally posted by AlphaChiGirl:
Tell me straight out if I'm not supposed to know, but what is a Probate? The only thing that comes to mind for me is something having to do with Estate Law. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

A probate is a 'coming out show' for the neos (new members). It's the day that the organization presents their neos to the rest of the the world.

ZetaAce

[Artimis]

ZetaAce: Thanks for the defintion, i was also wondering what probate was.

sugahbee: Does your sorority have a website. I'd be interested in learning more about it. What university is it founded at.

[PositivelyAKA]

I don't personally have a problem with other BGLO's out there. I didn't know there were any others besides the Eight Elite now the Divine Nine until later on. BGLO's do some interesting and fun things so it does not susprise me when others start their own groups and imitate certain traditionally NPHC characterisitics. It would concern me if they were using the same or very similiar calls, colors etc as one of our own. But i think most are respectful enough not to go there. And it does concern me when someone's founding is based on downing or complaining about another organization's susposed flaws (instead of just saying you wanted to start your own group, why join a group when you can be your own founders) One chapter at your school may have turned you off by their actions/attitudes but it does not represent the entire organization (but that always seems to be the excuse used). And i have yet to see another frat/sorority founded after the first eight do anything innovative or better then those that went before them and paved the way. They all do community service (should), use calls, signs, colors, nothing new under the sun. The Divine Nine has a long and prestigious history that current members continue to add to. Therefore i doubt very seriously if any of our members are/should be that concerned about the newer groups sprouting up as long as they are not disrespecting our history and hard work as we should respect theirs. We've got plenty to do to keep us busy if we are indeed about the business.

[sugahbee]

Artimis,

Thanx for your interest, I'd be happy to share our website address to you. Its www.unc.edu/student/orgs/apiomega. (http://www.unc.edu/student/orgs/apiomega.) If you have any trouble just go to the UNC website and look up Greek Affairs and you'll be able to find us. At this webpage we have link to our national website and some other chapter websites as well. Feel free to look! Oh, we were founded at UNC-Chapel Hill.

Sugahbee

[irritated]

PositivelyAKA: I like what you said. Although I'm not in a BGLO, I do have experience with other groups "stealing" my sorority's colors/symbols/ideas/etc. They did not know the meanings behind anything, but still used some of the symbols (i.e. we have the same flower but I'm sure it doesn't mean the same thing). It really irritates me that they took advantage of the founders of my sorority to form their own organization. Obviously I have no respect for their organization.

[Gina_lynn]

I wasn't going to say anything on this, but you all have driven me to it. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

PositivelyAKA, I agree with you about basing your founding on the percieved downfalls of other groups. That kind of thing promotes division. Why should I embrace you in love and Greek unity if you start out by saying "I didn't want to have anything to do with you because ya'll were messing up".?

(now I KNOW this isn't going to be popular, but..) I don't see the need for more than the 9 Orgainizations in the Pan currently. In my one chapter of Delta, their is enough diversity for (just about) any young woman to find someone to bond and feel a kinship with. Now I know that if you can find that kind of diversity in one chapter of one org., you can find a chapter somewhere in one of the 4 sororities, 5 fraternities to feel at home. (I'm not including professional orgs.) That being said, the other orgainzations are out there and I wish them God speed in their service.

In terms of stepping, calls, hand signs, colors ect., those are the trappings of greekdom and have very little to do with the real purpose of the organizations. For those of you who pledged non NPHC organizations because of the percieved arogence and hostility, I can tell you that nine times out of ten, when greeks do display these traits they are directly linked to those trappings. (When was the last time you heard of a fight between two BGLOs that was based on a philosophical difference?) If you get caught up in those things, you'll become what you started the orgainizations to get away from.



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If you can't raise conciousness, at least raise hell!--Rita Mae Brown

[Eclipse]

Disgogoddess, I believe we are in the same age range, and what you said is the way it was back in the day. As a child of the 70s & 80s who's mother was previously a graduate advisor to an undergrad chapter of a BGL sorority at an HBCU (how's that for a lot of information!) I attended quite a few 'probate' shows. The tradition at this school was that the probate shows of all of the organizations were done at the same time during the so-called 'hell week'. It was kind of an opportunity for the pledgees to prove to their big sisters, and the world, that they had learned what they were suppose to learn and were indeed worthy to cross the 'burning sands.' The lenghty recitations (sp?) and steps were similar to the ones today. I remember my mother being particularly put out when her sorority's group of pledgees messed up. Not because she was embarassed of them, but because she knew that, as a graduate advisor, she would be up half the night making sure nothing bad happened to the girls.

[PositivelyAKA]

Originally posted by divinerose:
PositivelyAKA:

I am a memeber of a non-NPHC greek-lettered organization, Sigma Alpha Iota International Professional Music Fraternity for Women and I must comment on a few things you mentioned in you post. You stated that you didn't think that these "new organizations" know not to copy colors, calls, or hand signs, etc..., well, I am really tried of people believing that because it has not always been at your university, the org is new. We have this problem at our school (an HBCU), my fraternity's colors are crimson and white and have been since 1903. Therefore, I believe we were around way before any of the Divine Nine. Likewise, with other non-NPHC org, they have been around for a long time (I.E. Phi Mu Alpha founded 1898). My message is to KNOW and then discuss because my org is not trying to be like any other, we are just doing what we love to do, be it stepping, singing, or whatever! Please excuse me if you felt I attacked you, I am just tried of the mentality.

divinerose

i think you misinterpreted my post. i am aware that before the divine nine there were other greek organizations. however i am not concerned with them or what they do, they were not open to my people then and i am not interested in them today. no one owns a particular color of course, however i would not be particularly happy if another black sorority was founded with my sororities colors or anything else pertaining to our style, that's just me. As with the crimson and white thang going on on your campus well i don't think that pertains to me or my sorority so i will leave it alone. I don't compare GLO's with BGLO's they are too different historically and in purpose and dept. My reference was about new BGLO's and again i have no problem with them as long as they respect my organization i will respect theirs.

[divinerose]

PositivelyAKA:

I am a memeber of a non-NPHC greek-lettered organization, Sigma Alpha Iota International Professional Music Fraternity for Women and I must comment on a few things you mentioned in you post. You stated that you didn't think that these "new organizations" know not to copy colors, calls, or hand signs, etc..., well, I am really tried of people believing that because it has not always been at your university, the org is new. We have this problem at our school (an HBCU), my fraternity's colors are crimson and white and have been since 1903. Therefore, I believe we were around way before any of the Divine Nine. Likewise, with other non-NPHC org, they have been around for a long time (I.E. Phi Mu Alpha founded 1898). My message is to KNOW and then discuss because my org is not trying to be like any other, we are just doing what we love to do, be it stepping, singing, or whatever! Please excuse me if you felt I attacked you, I am just tried of the mentality.

divinerose

[Discogoddess]

FYI:

I believe that using the term "probate show" when describing the presentation of new initiates is incorrect. From listening to older folks, I've learned that a probate show was a show put on by pledges of a greek organization. These shows weren't always positive experiences for the pledges performing, from what I understand. A better term would be "coming out show," "neophyte" (a term we use in the Midwest to describe both new members and the step show/party given to present them and give gifts), etc.

divinerose:

I think that what gets many NPHC members riled up about non-NPHC organizations is the appropriation of NPHC-founded symbols, imagery, language, and behavior, all the while saying that these things (hand signs, calls, steps, terms: sands, ship, line brother/sister, crossing the burning sands, etc.) are not imitations of the original. True, no one organization owns these things, but it is clear that NPHC organizations created them/brought them to prominence (be that good or bad).

Personally, I feel no ill will toward non-NPHC groups, but I do wonder if we are diluting our community service, financial, and political strength by adding more groups with similar aims. Having spent much of my professional career in nonprofit organizations, I have seen service-duplication create resource drainage, and it gets frustrating to compete with similar orgs. for talent, money, and other resources. I see the same thing with GLOs whose primary aim is to serve African American communities.

[gamma_girl52]

Greetings all...I saw this topic and I had to respond to it.

I am a member of Gamma Sigma Sigma National Service Sorority in Atlanta. Yes, some of my chapters do partake in all apsects of the NPHC (stepping, hand signs and what have you). However, the majority of them do not, and I still embrace them as my sister/soror. I also recognize Alpha Phi Omega as my esteemed brothers of service. While I can write a whole lot on what's behind that relationship, I will say that my sorority was founded because of the willingness of the founders to become a sister organization to the fraternity. Some APO's don't recognize me as their sister and vice versa with GSS (not recognizing APO) but that doesn't mean the relationship between those that DO recognize it isn't there.

I have love for ALL Greeks that uphold the standards which their founders set forth for them. So, although some of the members of black greeks don't care too much for me or my sorority, it doesn't mean I have to get down to their level and not care for them. It's all about who's the bigger person. My GSS chapter is pretty cool with everybody on my campus, so it's all love.

If anyone has more questions let me know

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by Serenity:
I just need some clarification about your post. Are you saying that Alpha Phi Omega, a service organization, calls themselves A Phi Q's, participate in step shows and have hand signs? If so, is this a relatively new thing?

In college I knew several individuals who pledged APO because it was not a social organization. If you can be in a service organization and a social organization, why would a service organization need to function as a social organization?

Correct me if I am misunderstanding your post! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif


I thought they were a Christian fraternity. Was I wrong?


------------------

[Corbin Dallas]

APO is a national service fraternity, at least that's what they are at my school.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Zeta Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[Iacoca]

This is my 1st time on Greeksource. One of my bruhs told me about Greeksource and informed me that there is a discussion going on about my sorority and my brother fraternity. Oh, I guess I should've started out by letting everybody know that I am a member of, what I consider to be the greatest sorority, Gamma Sigma Sigma National Service Sorority. And the brothers are Alpha Phi Omega National Service Fraternity.

It intrigued me to know that there is a discussion going on about my sorority and our bruhs and our validity. And I have come to know that people fear the unknown. We get a lot of beef, including the brothers, from NPHC organizations, mainly because they don't know who we are. I have read most of the posts on this topic, and I have mixed feelings.

I am proud to say that I am one of the 15 founders of my chapter, Zeta Upsilon at Ohio State University. So I take Gamma-Sig very seriously. First of all, we were founded in 1952 by 8 groups of white women, so no, we do not consider ourselves to be a Black GLO, although we do have a huge number of Black chapters and White chapters who have Black members, as well as Black sorors serving on our National Board of Directors. To clarify, yes we do hand signs, a call, colors, and we do step. Matter-of-factly, we hold it down whenever we come out!! And I want to let everyone know that we do none of this to imitate anything the NPHC or BGLOs have taken on as traditions. In my opinion, we do these things because it is particular to us as Africans. So when I hear NPHC members say that Gamma-Sig and A-Phi-Q are not "Greek", it makes me sad because obviously somebody wasn't taught what they ought to know about the "Greek" system they live and die by!!!! It's important for us as members of GLOs to know the true African origins of our letters.

So that there will be no more misconstrued ideas nor posts about GSS and A-Phi-Q, we are BOTH national service organizations, not a business fraternity like someone mentioned prior.

In service,
Iacoca

[Corbin Dallas]

I thought APO was a coed service fraternity. No disrespect meant, but if it is, what is the need for a sister sorority. On a side note, I think I would die of laughter if I saw the APO's at my school stepping, throwing up signs, or doing calls. You just have to know them to understand.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Zeta Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[SoCalGirl]

I agree with Steve. I'd be rollin' all over the floor if I saw APhiO steppin. At my school APhiO doesn't consider THEMSELVES Greek. I do though, but I know everthing changes at different chapters.

I'm also confused as to how a CO-ED service glo can have chapter with all men. Then those chapters develop a sister relationship with GSS. Aren't APhiO National's a little curious as to why theres no girls on their roster at those schools?

[Rain Man]

As far as Alpha Phi Omega's Nationals' curiosity about all-male chapters, they do allow all-male chapters under certain stipulations. We were founded all-male, and in 1976 allowed women to join. The all-male chapters who wished to remain all-male at the time we went coed could do so. 'Nuff said.

[gamma_girl52]

Well said, my soror!

As I said in my last post, GSS is NOT, I repeat, NOT a BGLO, is was in fact founded by white women representing 8 different colleges/universities, and I embrace all my sisters whether they are black, white or purple...it doesen't matter to me :C)

Secondly, I don't really like the term "social" when it comes to Greeks because we all ought to be using our time serving others, giving to your national philantropy (sp!), whatever. Of course we all make time for fun and fellowship, but I think what's most important is that we're all out there doing something positive for our communities.

As for my brothers, I feel you should ask a brother of Alpha Phi Omega to answer your questions in depth. But they aren't a Christian fraternity, I know that for sure :C)

I am one of the 18 founders of my chapter, Zeta Tau at Georgia State University. And I wouldn't trade my experience or my beloved sorority for the world!

[gamma_girl52]

Rain Man, I know you are not a soror! :C) What's up bruh!

I feel what you're saying...to each his own, that's what I say. And why not have a sister org? That's why I said in my last post, I could go into a novel about why we're brother and sister :C) But I love my brothers of Alpha Phi Omega, and I will continue to work with them side by side!

[MaMaBuddha]

i am a member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated, a member of Alpha Phi Omega bka A Phi Q or APO (Alpha Gamma Gamma chapter at Hunter College in NYC).

since the inception of the co-ed fraternity (1925), there has alway been a handshake and secret signs. The stepping came into play when african amercian joined.

I've been to several viking chapters that are only african amerian men and have a call "skeet skeet" and even some of these men don't acknowledge me. most do, because i can handle my own and i know my history!!!



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"the ORIGINAL soror from the dirtiest part of the south"
(cheese grits, hogmahs and fatback)

MaMaBuddha
Delta Alpha/Epsilon Tau
Spring 94
the 24th Diva of Perfection

[someblueguy]

-well, first off... i am a member of Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc. i want to say that no sorority or fraternity can truly lay claim to the words 'frat' or 'soror' when referring to a counterpart group except Zeta Phi Beta and Phi Beta Sigma, off tops!

-second...i think that for organizations whose traditions and practices and purposes for existing are not the same as those of the nine traditionally african american fraternities and sororities, offense should not be taken when someone talks about one organization imitating another. GLO's differ from BGLO's in their organization and initiations and such so much that comparisons cannot and should not be drawn between them.
however, the imitation that is referred to, that is so thouroughly disdained, is that of non-NPHC BGLO's that 'coincidentally' have similar colors and handsigns and calls intake processes and etcetera to those of the nine NPHC BGLO's, in some mixture or another. AND, on top of everything they wanna step, but claim to be innovators of something new...huh!
those organizations may very well be service organizations, but they trivialize the existence of the nine NPHC BGLO's. it's a slap in the face of any memeber when this sort of imitation occurs.
i don't have a problem with an organization that starts up and does something different and tries to find a different way to enlighten the community and uplift us all; i commend any such organization. on my campus at the university of missouri-columbia, there is a start-up organization, Sa-En-Ra, that is very african based in its principles and ideas and methodology. they have no calls or hadsigns or the like, but they are a fraternal organization [minus the Greek letters]. they are a superb group of men. i don't have any problems with similar such BGLO's.

-thirdly, the word probate alludes to a time period early in the twetieth century when hazing was absolutely rampant on college campuses eveywhere; it was germaine to most people's college experience. when joing an organization, especially a fraternity or sorority, you were considered 'on probation' -- not worthy of full membership. near or at the end of your 'probation' you would put on a show for the public demonstraing your worthiness, a probate show. over time, the elaborateness (sp?) of the show has remained the same (songs, steps, etc.), but it is more for entertainment value and purposes of presentation of new members (neophytes). this is why a 'probate' is more commonly referred to as a neophyte [show].

-lastly, if we [members of all GLO's] could remember the the reasons why our organizations exist, and the true spirit if fraternity...that's all that matters, really.

i'm out

[Rain Man]

To Gamma Girl 52, How's it goin', soror?

To Someblueguy,

As far as for (B)GLOs other than ZPBS laying true claim to the whole "frat" and "soror" part, no one is disputing that fact. Nonetheless, many of the orgs do it anyway IN SPITE OF. Yes, I call the Gamma Sigs sorors, and they call us (A Phi Qs) frat. Just because there is no constitutional bond does not mean a sister/brother bond is to be negated. This holds true for Alpha/AKA, Delta/Omega, etc., or any combination of the above.

HOWEVER (in my best Art Fleming "Jeopardy" voice)

Over the past 5-6 years, there has been arising quite a few CONSTITUIONALLY BOUND BGLOs; to name a few Phi Rho Eta Fraternity and Gamma Phi Rho Sorority, and Gamma Phi Eta Fraternity and Xi Gamma Phi Sorority. So come to think of it, your initial analogy is technically incorrect, though I can see your overlying point.

BTW, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Da Rain Man

[ZetaAce]

GSS and APHIQ- Question? Is that relationship a nationally recognized one (like Zeta/Sigma or AKA/Alpha) or is it something that is only recognized on HBCU's??

ZetaAce

[33girl]

Originally posted by ZetaAce:
GSS and APHIQ- Question? Is that relationship a nationally recognized one (like Zeta/Sigma or AKA/Alpha) or is it something that is only recognized on HBCU's??

ZetaAce

Seeing as I am a member of APO and never even HEARD of GSS till I discovered the Internet, I would say it is something that is only recognized on HBCU's, and with those chapters of APO that are all-male.

The idea that APO does still have all-male chapters blows my mind, although my chapter was chartered the year APO went co-ed nationally, so we've never known any other way.

(Opening can o' worms) To those from all-male APO chapters....say I would have transferred from my college & co-ed APO chapter, to a college that had an all-male APO chapter. Would I have been accepted? Since we have a nonselective membership policy, they'd kind of have to, wouldn't they?

[PositivelyAKA]

Originally posted by someblueguy:
-well, first off... i am a member of Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc. i want to say that no sorority or fraternity can truly lay claim to the words 'frat' or 'soror' when referring to a counterpart group except Zeta Phi Beta and Phi Beta Sigma, off tops!



Hey Someblueguy its cool to see a Sigma posting it doesn't happen alot, anyway if the Divine Nine recoginizes that Sigma and Zeta are the first "constitutionally bound" which i believe we all do, then do you have a problem and if so why? when groups that were started before your own already had and continue to have a brother/sister or frat/soror type of bond. (which can not be mandated, like you should be in love with your spouse before you get the marriage certificate, that's just a legal document it has nothing to do with the love you already have between the two of you) They did not choose or see the need to make it constitutionally bond. I respect the fact that you guys are constitutionally bound but i don't understand why their is a problem with relationships such as Alpha/AKA and Omega/Delta (which can vary from campus to campus but as a whole) that have been around longer then your own organization. Is it that you find people negating the validity of your bond with your sorors or is it that you just do not like seeing others share the same bond. Help a sista out Sigma Man http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif and i would prefer/but not limit this to hearing from the Sigma Bruhs since they initiated the constitutional bond idea in its inception.

[Rain Man]

This is to 33 girl

Your statement about APQ and GSS being recognized only at HBCUs is not correct, although that is where it is primarily recognized. The APO(Q)/GSS bond is recognized at mainstream single-gender chapters at such schools as Drexel, Duquesne, U of Delaware, Clemson, and Western Kentucky Univ.

As far as all-male chapters having to admit a transfer female, that also is not necessairily true. Case in point, Delta chapter at Auburn Univ. (Ala.) is the oldest all-male chapter, and the most continuouly active chapter in APO (never been inactive since it's founding 10/31/27). They are a die-hard all-male chapter and vows to stay that way, and will not admit transfer female brothers, or for that matter ANY TRANSFER BROTHER regardless of gender.

So no all-male chapter is required to admit women, though Nationals is pushing that one HARD.

Da Rain Man

[Rain Man]

This is to 33 girl

Your statement about APQ and GSS being recognized only at HBCUs is not correct, although that is where it is primarily recognized. The APO(Q)/GSS bond is recognized at mainstream single-gender chapters at such schools as Drexel, Duquesne, U of Delaware, Clemson, and Western Kentucky Univ.

As far as all-male chapters having to admit a transfer female, that also is not necessairily true. Case in point, Delta chapter at Auburn Univ. (Ala.) is the oldest all-male chapter, and the most continuouly active chapter in APO (never been inactive since it's founding 10/31/27). They are a die-hard all-male chapter and vows to stay that way, and will not admit transfer female brothers, or for that matter ANY TRANSFER BROTHER regardless of gender.

So no all-male chapter is required to admit women, though Nationals is pushing that one HARD.

Da Rain Man

[someblueguy]

-well, i'm glad you appreciate my posting, thanks. i was surfing the internet looking at sigma stuff, and i found this place.

-anyway, to tell you the truth, about other greeks using the terms frat and soror, i sometimes have a problem with it. but, i never really thought about it the way you just broke it down. however, on my campus the alpha's and aka's ain't really cool with each other [in fact the alpha's and delta's are real cool] yet and still they still try to front for the non-greeks and call each other frat and soror and give each other special shoutouts [like at parties and stepshows]. also, the same thing with the delta's and que's -- until spr200 there was only 1 or 2 que's at any one time -- so, they never do anything together, but they still use 'frat' and 'soror'. that's what i have a problem with, FRONTIN'. it's like a disease on my campus, there's just way too much. so, in essence i guess, i don't have a problem with aka's/alpha's or delta's/omega's or gss's/apo's or anybody else in general, just the one's on my campus.

-i'm out

[33girl]

So no all-male chapter is required to admit women, though Nationals is pushing that one HARD.

Da Rain Man[/B][/QUOTE]

If chapters are all male...whatever...because it's all about SERVICE and if they are busting their butts doing service that’s the most important thing cause that’s APO’s purpose.

But quite frankly, I’m surprised APO national hasn’t gotten sued over this one. Like I said, I’ve never known any other way but coed...to me, it’s kind of like if my sorority would decide to admit guys only in reverse.

FWIW, my sorority sister’s brother pledged GSS and they HAD to let him in. Why he didn’t go APO I don’t know.

[gamma_girl52]

Hello All...

Just reading over the posts here...

The whole co-ed issue in APO has been a long-running one to my understanding. The APO/GSS relationship is far more than just a HBCU thing, as my brother Rain Man said, it exists outside of that. When my sorority was founded in 1952, it was founded to be a sister organization to Alpha Phi Omega, yes-but more importantly, it was the determination and desire of our founders to form a sorority that upheld the principles of Service, Friendship, and Equality. And, since our inception, Gamma Sigma Sigma has had a non-selectivity policy that allowed anyone to join that had a desire to serve.

Yes, there are men in my sorority just as there are women in Alpha Phi Omega, but I never lose sight of the relationship that is APO/GSS. Whether you heard of the brother/sister bond or not, realize that it's there and this isn't a "black" or "white" thing-it's history!

[PositivelyAKA]

thanks someblueguy for your reply http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[someblueguy]

-PositivelyAKA, you're very welcome.

[ElonDST90]

This is my first time on GreekSource and I hope I dont' offend anyone. I have found it interesting to read the posting regarding Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma. I find it quite interesting that Alpha Phi Omega would have a sister sorority (or Jewels/sweethearts even) when the organization it self is co-ed. Why be sisters to a fraternity that you can actually join? That is more baffling to me than the "Non-NPHC" issue.
Can someone help me to understand? I'm not bashing at all. I just want to understand the rationale.

We had "A Phi Q's" when I was in school and when I went to another campus and actually saw a white female with the same letters on, it totally tripped me out! Then I went back and looked at old yearbooks from my school and saw that the chapter was actually co-ed and predominately white at one time. Somehow, I think the chapter died and was given new life as an "NPHC like" organization. Now the chapter is active again as a co-ed, multi racial service organization with mainly women at the helm.

Does anyone know what the Alpha Phi Omega national office think about all of this?

[12dn94dst]

Welcome soror! :) Please introduce yourself here (http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=74723).

[Guest1]

Hi everyone,

Alpha Phi Omega, National Service Fraternity.

Alpha Phi Omega is a national, co-ed service fraternity that has set the standard for college campus-based volunteerism since 1925. We have active chapters on over 350 campuses, and we strive to help each individual member develop leadership (http://www.apo.org/show/About_Us/History/Traditions/Principles) skills, experience friendship (http://www.apo.org/show/About_Us/History/Traditions/Principles) on many levels and provide service (http://www.apo.org/show/About_Us/History/Traditions/Principles) to others. For more information about Alpha Phi Omega, click here (http://www.apo.org/show/About_Us).

I hope the links worked...if not (and you are interested), please go to www.apo.org (http://www.apo.org)

I pledged at a co-ed, diverse chapter where there was also a GSS chapter. We had no formal connection at all. I do remember learning about Omega Phi Alpha, but they didn't have a chapter at my school. I only learned about the APO/GSS connection via GC.
Our chapter didn't have calls/lines/step shows, either.

Every chapter of APO, like any other GLO, is different from school to school- we're a dynamic organization.



APO is a national service fraternity, at least that's what they are at my school.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Zeta Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[DSTCHAOS]

Our chapter didn't have calls/lines/step shows, either.

Most don't. :)

That's why APO isn't a BGLO period and shouldn't even be mentioned in a "nonNPHC BGLO" thread.

[Guest1]

Most don't. :)

That's why APO isn't a BGLO period and shouldn't even be mentioned in a "nonNPHC BGLO" thread.

I agree! :) Alpha Phi Omega is supposed to be inclusive of EVERYONE. But I suppose that if you are only familiar with one chapter, then you assume that all the other chapters are the same, too.

On a sidenote...the idea that one chapter (or alumni association, like the Brothers of the Rising Sun) wouldn't include/accept a transferred brother (or alumni) because of his or her gender or ethnicity sickens me. We are ALL brothers.

[KAPital PHINUst]

On a sidenote...the idea that one chapter (or alumni association, like the Brothers of the Rising Sun) wouldn't include/accept a transferred brother (or alumni) because of his or her gender or ethnicity sickens me. We are ALL brothers.

Hey, it was that way for 30 years, and fully permissible by the National Board. IMO, and the opinion of other brothers from all male chapters, there is a certain brotherhood dynamic unique to all-male chapters that by making the chapter co-ed would undermine and/or destroy. Whether one finds that right or wrong is debateable, but at the end of the day, it is what it is.

Delta Chapter is notorious for the upkeep of the all-male tradition and one chapter I respect and support wholeheartedly. I for one will be sad to see the original Delta Chapter die in this manner.

[Guest1]

Hey, it was that way for 30 years, and fully permissible by the National Board. IMO, and the opinion of other brothers from all male chapters, there is a certain brotherhood dynamic unique to all-male chapters that by making the chapter co-ed would undermine and/or destroy. Whether one finds that right or wrong is debateable, but at the end of the day, it is what it is.

Delta Chapter is notorious for the upkeep of the all-male tradition and one chapter I respect and support wholeheartedly. I for one will be sad to see the original Delta Chapter die in this manner.

Yes, the history of APO is as a male chapter, but then it became co-ed in the 70s. Nationals has made it clear that the remaining all-male chapters must put forth an honest effort to be open to women. Honestly, I really have no problem with the last remaining all-male chapters staying male. But it's not up to me- it is up to the brotherhood.

However, as I stated in my earlier post, if a brother were to transfer to that school, then she should be accepted by them as a brother. She is no less of a brother than any of them. My criticism is towards the small groups within APO who don't follow APO's inclusive nature or policies. (Obviously I understand that a chapter demographics will reflect the campus dynamic- i.e. in a HBCU, a religious school, or a single-sexed institution). Particularly the above mentioned alumni group. APO is not for just one race or gender. This could be further discussed via PM/ in the APO forum (as it has).

Last nitty gritty...notorious means famous for something bad. Juding from your post, I would think you would find Delta's stance to be admirable.


YiLFS

[KAPital PHINUst]

However, as I stated in my earlier post, if a brother were to transfer to that school, then she should be accepted by them as a brother. She is no less of a brother than any of them.

I don't know about other all-male chapters, but Delta doesn't take transfer members of ANY gender. You wanna be a member of Delta Chapter, you gotta be "made" at Delta Chapter

Last nitty gritty...notorious means famous for something bad. Juding from your post, I would think you would find Delta's stance to be admirable.

YiLFS

Seeing how much of an issue being all-male was to APO at large that they had to completely abolish it (and especially how you find all-male chapters and alumni associations, in your words, "sickening"), evidently it was something bad. So my term notorious was in a sense quite fitting under the circumstances.

Wanna holla at me more on the topic? You know how to reach me.....

YiLFS, etc, etc.

[naraht]

I am an Alpha Phi Omega alumnus and on the National Alpha Phi Omega history committee and was representative to the APO chapter at Howard for a while. I'm probably able to give background on this better than most. :)

Timeline:
12/16/1925: Alpha Phi Omega founded. Membership limited to only men with Scouting (Cub, Scout or Leader) experience.

4/17/1947: First Alpha Phi Omega chapter founded at an HBCU. Johnson C. Smith University (Delta Phi - chapter #117). Howard University is second on 5/22/1948 (Zeta Phi - chapter #165).

1952: Gamma Sigma Sigma National Service Sorority Founded by eight women's service groups. Alpha Phi Omega brothers helped put the groups in contact with each other, but as far as I know were not at the meeting where the Sorority came into being.

1953: Omega Phi Alpha National Service Sorority came into being. Alpha Phi Omega service fraternity chapter at Bowling Green State encouraged women also interested in service to form their own group.

1950s-1970s: Some Alpha Phi Omega chapters continued to have local related women's service organizations integrated into the chapter in terms of service and social events.

1960s: By this point if not earlier many (if not all) Alpha Phi Omega at HBCUs were reflecting the way that the NPHC fraternities were doing things. They called their pledge classes lines, they called the pledge classes by a "club name" like AKA's Ivy Club or Kappa Alpha Psi's Scroll club. Alpha Phi Omega chapters often used the term "Trefoil Club"

1967: Alpha Phi Omega removes the requirement for prior scouting membership at its Constitutional Convention. Many chapters by this time had more or less allowed anyone to join, with those without prior scouting experience simply being registered with their local Scout Council as a volunteer in order to fulfill the requirement.

Late 1960s - Early 1970s Chapters from liberal schools and/or liberal parts of the country were pledging women "underground" and registering them with the National Office simply under their first initial and last name.

Early 1970s: Proposals to go co-ed first seriously raised.

1972: Title IX. All non-social Greek Letter Organizations required to go co-ed. (Note, this is why legally, the NPHC greeks no matter how much service they do are legally counted as social fraternities)

1974: After *much* debate, women are allowed affiliate membership in the Fraternity.

1976: After even more debate than in 1974, women are admitted as full members of the fraternity. As part of the "Gentleman's Agreement", chapters are not required to admit women, nor required to admit women brothers who transfer (Transfering membership requires the incoming chapter to accept them). This was to deal with those all-male chapters who considered leaving the fraternity if they were required to admit women.

1977-1979, a majority of chapters go co-ed. *No* chapters at an HBCU does so.

Up to at least1981: Efforts continute to attempt to get the law changed to have Alpha Phi Omega be exempt from Title IX.

1986: Chartering chapters and rechartering chapters are now required to attempt to recruit from both genders. This, to use a term from a brother from an all-male chapter "neuters" the all-male chapters. It also means that an all-male chapter that goes inactive must come back coed.

1996: All-male chapters make up about 15% of all chapters in the Fraternity.

2005: Opinion given by legal council that Alpha Phi Omega must not bar women from chapters any more. National Board resolution reflecting that passed.

2006: All-male chapters make up 17 of approximately 350 chapters in the Fraternity. National Convention (by close vote) supports National Board. All all-male chapters must co-ed by 2008 convention or show good faith in that direction or have their charters revoked for failure to follow National Pledging Standards and National By-laws. Committee formed including members of all-male chapters to help with transition.

I'll add specific comments on other postings separately.

[KAPital PHINUst]

2006: All-male chapters make up 19 of approximately 250 chapters in the Fraternity. National Convention (by close vote) supports National Board.

*at bolded* Translation: SIX VOTES!!!

[KAPital PHINUst]

Our chapter didn't have calls/lines/step shows, either.

If what I've been seeing on YouTube recently regarding Alpha Phi Omega chapters starting such trends at the most unlikely of chapters is any indication of an imminent surge of such trends, my only reply to you is this:

COMING SOON TO A CHAPTER NEAR YOU! *lol*

[naraht]

This is my first time on GreekSource and I hope I dont' offend anyone. I have found it interesting to read the posting regarding Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma. I find it quite interesting that Alpha Phi Omega would have a sister sorority (or Jewels/sweethearts even) when the organization it self is co-ed. Why be sisters to a fraternity that you can actually join? That is more baffling to me than the "Non-NPHC" issue.
Can someone help me to understand? I'm not bashing at all. I just want to understand the rationale.

Gamma Sigma Sigma isn't officially a sister sorority. Locally some chapters especially ones that are still all-male have much tighter relations with the individual chapters. More specifically at many Historically Black Colleges and Universities the fraternity isn't co-ed and Gamma Sigma Sigma is treated as a sister. When Gamma Sigma Sigma was formed in 1952, Alpha Phi Omega was entirely male (and limited to former scouts) and we did help the groups who were interested find each other. We however were not part of the founding meeting as far as I know.



We had "A Phi Q's" when I was in school and when I went to another campus and actually saw a white female with the same letters on, it totally tripped me out! Then I went back and looked at old yearbooks from my school and saw that the chapter was actually co-ed and predominately white at one time. Somehow, I think the chapter died and was given new life as an "NPHC like" organization. Now the chapter is active again as a co-ed, multi racial service organization with mainly women at the helm.

Does anyone know what the Alpha Phi Omega national office think about all of this?

I'd be interested in the years on this. When were the first yearbooks, when were you in school and when do you think the chapter came back. And you may be right in terms of a zombie "NPHC like" chapter.

Not sure there is much the National Office would do now, but let me know if you can think of something they should.

Randolph Finder

[naraht]

Most don't. :)

That's why APO isn't a BGLO period and shouldn't even be mentioned in a "nonNPHC BGLO" thread.

Agreed, but Alpha Phi Omega, Gamma Sigma Sigma, Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma generally do fall into the same grouping at HBCUs. Non-socials who started at non HBCUs (or a collection thereof for GSS) and whose chapters at HBCUs function similarly to NPHC in terms of calls, signs, stepping, lines and other characteristics.

For APO (many times at HBCUs abbreviated as A Phi Que) represents a culture shared across a number of chapters but isn't anything official. It is noticed and at least one convention had a seminar specifically demonstrating Alpha Phi Omega stepping.

[naraht]

Most don't. :)

That's why APO isn't a BGLO period and shouldn't even be mentioned in a "nonNPHC BGLO" thread.

If what I've been seeing on YouTube recently regarding Alpha Phi Omega chapters starting such trends at the most unlikely of chapters is any indication of an imminent surge of such trends, my only reply to you is this:

COMING SOON TO A CHAPTER NEAR YOU! *lol*

If you can find any Alpha Phi Omega stepping beyond an HBCU, I'd love to see it. The ones I've seen so far have been for schools like Prairie View and Florida A&M.

Randy

[naraht]

*at bolded* Translation: SIX VOTES!!!

Yes, I couldn't remember the exact number (and I wasn't at that convention.) Do you feel that describing it as a "close vote" rather than a "very close vote" is inappropriate?

[KAPital PHINUst]

If you can find any Alpha Phi Omega stepping beyond an HBCU, I'd love to see it. The ones I've seen so far have been for schools like Prairie View and Florida A&M.

Randy

I saw the Alpha Epsilon Nu chapter doing a step during their 2007 Sectionals Roll Call. If it's still on YouTube, I'll give you the link.

btw, I saw another APO co-ed chapter step (it was uploaded on YouTube within the last few weeks).

[Senusret I]

It is noticed and at least one convention had a seminar specifically demonstrating Alpha Phi Omega stepping.

I taught a strolling workshop at the 2006 convention with about 30 attendees. Most of the participants were not from HBCUs, if that means anything.

[naraht]

I saw the Alpha Epsilon Nu chapter doing a step during their 2007 Sectionals Roll Call. If it's still on YouTube, I'll give you the link.

btw, I saw another APO co-ed chapter step (it was uploaded on YouTube within the last few weeks).

University of San Francisco?:eek:?:eek:? - a thousand miles from the nearest HBCU!

Edited, actually Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science is in Los Angeles, but they don't have any Alpha Phi Omega or HBCUs.

[naraht]

I taught a strolling workshop at the 2006 convention with about 30 attendees. Most of the participants were not from HBCUs, if that means anything.

Actually, I was thinking of the 1994 convention in Dallas/Fort Worth. Prairie View A&M's chapter ran that...

[Senusret I]

Actually, I was thinking of the 1994 convention in Dallas/Fort Worth. Prairie View A&M's chapter ran that...

I know you were, I'm just adding that there have been additional events since that.

[naraht]

I know you were, I'm just adding that there have been additional events since that.

Cool. However, if this ever spreads far enough that the chapter I initiated at (Kappa @ the incredibly geeky Carnegie-Mellon University) begins stepping, someone is going to die. :D

[DSTCHAOS]

Agreed, but Alpha Phi Omega, Gamma Sigma Sigma, Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma generally do fall into the same grouping at HBCUs.

That doesn't a "BGLO" make. ;)

[naraht]

That doesn't a "BGLO" make. ;)

True, but sometimes the only way to tell with those 4 groups at HBCUs is to look at the pictures in the Pledge manual. (That is definitely a way in which Alpha Phi Omega nationally does *not* line up with the NPHCs. Pledging<>Hazing!)

[KAPital PHINUst]

University of San Francisco?:eek:?:eek:? - a thousand miles from the nearest HBCU!

Edited, actually Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science is in Los Angeles, but they don't have any Alpha Phi Omega or HBCUs.

Found the clip. Here it is:

Alpha Phi Omega AEN Chapter roll call step (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyv39sPbAMQ)

[DSTCHAOS]

True, but sometimes the only way to tell with those 4 groups at HBCUs is to look at the pictures in the Pledge manual. (That is definitely a way in which Alpha Phi Omega nationally does *not* line up with the NPHCs. Pledging<>Hazing!)

They still aren't BGLOs.

[ladygreek]

*at bolded* Translation: SIX VOTES!!!

Six votes or 600 votes--it passed.

[KAPital PHINUst]

I found another mainstream APO step show from the 2007 Stomp Fest: It is truly :eek:

(clips are separated in three segments)

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICQakfRJdk&mode=related&search=)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z9A8ejr3wA&mode=related&search=)

Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JUYGn7Fv3g&mode=related&search=)

[ladygreek]

1972: Title IX. All non-social Greek Letter Organizations required to go co-ed. (Note, this is why legally, the NPHC greeks no matter how much service they do are legally counted as social fraternities)
Clarification 501(c)(7) has always been our IRS designations--membership social clubs.

While all of the NPHC orgs now claim service as their cornerstone, most of them were not founded for the express purpose of service. But because of the nature of the groups--selective memberships, even those that were, were still given (c)(7) designations.

So it really had nothing to do with Title IX. We were already protected and no one was seeking to change their designation anyway.

[ShamikaT]

When I logged on, I saw this:

"Hello, ShamikaT. it appears that you have not posted on GreekChat in several weeks, why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution or just engage in a conversation with another member in any one of our forums?"

Daaaaaaamn, GC be ALL up in mine!

Ok, lemme contribute some....

First of all, GC has been around since 2000??? What the hell?

DO YOU ALL KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!?

That means:

*It was the same year Nelly started rapping.

*Peeps were scared of the YtooK thing

*Greekchatters who are in their 30s were in their 20s! Those who are in their 20s were in their 10s!

*I was a sophomore in high school, I couldn't even drive! And I just finished developing my titties.

*I was a virgin, the first time around!

*GC look like it was purchased at the dolla store. It was straight hood! You couldn't send/recieve PMs. You couldn't view who was online. There were little folders beside each thread, and if it recieved 15+ posts, that bitch caught on fire! It was the local access channel of the internets. :o

Yall still listening???

*Michael Jackson was still black!

*Laffy Taffy was known as a chewy candy

*Kazo was known as a site where you download music

*Tom Earp wasn't gray.

*GC went down more than cheerfulgreek goes down on PrettyBoy.

*Off course, I wouldn't know annnything about some of this! I heard the GC things by rumor.;)

[naraht]

They still aren't BGLOs.

Shrug, what makes a BGLO then? The school they were founded at? (Like Indiana University)? Whether they have a majority of their chapters at HBCUs? (No idea if this is true of all of the NPHC). The race of their founders?

[naraht]

Clarification 501(c)(7) has always been our IRS designations--membership social clubs.

While all of the NPHC orgs now claim service as their cornerstone, most of them were not founded for the express purpose of service. But because of the nature of the groups--selective memberships, even those that were, were still given (c)(7) designations.

So it really had nothing to do with Title IX. We were already protected and no one was seeking to change their designation anyway.

Agreed, Title IX and IRS designations have nothing to do with each other, but it is the Title IX regulation that forces groups to either be Social Fraternities/Sororities or not Social Fraternities/Sororities. Only Social Fraternities and Sororities have the exemption in Section (A)(6)(a). Not professional F/S, not Honor F/S and not Service F/S. If Delta Sigma Theta were to legally claim to be a Service Sorority rather than a Social Sorority, they would be placing themselves in the legal situation of having to admit men to the collegiate chapters inside the United States. The text of Title IX is at http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/coord/titleixstat.htm . You may want to work through the text of the "Iron Arrow" case http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=464&invol=67

As for 501c3 vs 501c7, Alpha Phi Omega is 501c3, but that largely has to do with the fact that when Alpha Phi Omega applied for that status, it was more strongly tied to the Boy Scouts of America. I've seen other service groups that are 501c7.

[naraht]

I found another mainstream APO step show from the 2007 Stomp Fest: It is truly :eek:


This is Baylor. Cool.

[Guest1]

i'm pretty sure that jersey city university steps- or at least they did at one of the conferences a few years ago

[ladygreek]

Agreed, Title IX and IRS designations have nothing to do with each other, but it is the Title IX regulation that forces groups to either be Social Fraternities/Sororities or not Social Fraternities/Sororities. Only Social Fraternities and Sororities have the exemption in Section (A)(6)(a). Not professional F/S, not Honor F/S and not Service F/S. If Delta Sigma Theta were to legally claim to be a Service Sorority rather than a Social Sorority, they would be placing themselves in the legal situation of having to admit men to the collegiate chapters inside the United States. The text of Title IX is at http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/coord/titleixstat.htm . You may want to work through the text of the "Iron Arrow" case http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=464&invol=67

As for 501c3 vs 501c7, Alpha Phi Omega is 501c3, but that largely has to do with the fact that when Alpha Phi Omega applied for that status, it was more strongly tied to the Boy Scouts of America. I've seen other service groups that are 501c7.
And my point is Title IX did not force us to declare ourselves as a social sorority. We did that when we were founded. So for us Title IX was moot.
We are first and foremost a sisterhood founded for public service. The sisterhood is what makes us social.

And I don't need to work through the text of anything. As a member for 38 years, I know the inner workings of my sorority--you don't.

[DSTCHAOS]

Shrug, what makes a BGLO then?

The things that cancel groups like APO out.

[DSTCHAOS]

And I don't need to work through the text of anything. As a member for 38 years, I know the inner workings of my sorority--you don't.

;);)

[KAPital PHINUst]

And my point is Title IX did not force us to declare ourselves as a social sorority. We did that when we were founded. So for us Title IX was moot.
We are first and foremost a sisterhood founded for public service. The sisterhood is what makes us social.

And I don't need to work through the text of anything. As a member for 38 years, I know the inner workings of my sorority--you don't.

I think what the question that will eventually be asked is this:

What is the difference (other than Title IX) between Delta declaring themselves to be a service sorority and Alpha Phi Omega actually being a service fraternity? Is it a matter of substance over form? Just curious...

[Senusret I]

And my point is Title IX did not force us to declare ourselves as a social sorority. We did that when we were founded. So for us Title IX was moot.
We are first and foremost a sisterhood founded for public service. The sisterhood is what makes us social.


I don't see where naraht said or implied any different. In fact, it sounds like you're in agreement.

I remember when I had this discussion with GC people before I was an Alpha.

[ladygreek]

I don't see where naraht said or implied any different. In fact, it sounds like you're in agreement.

I remember when I had this discussion with GC people before I was an Alpha.
Reread her last post and then reread my response. Delta was not forced to make any declaration because of Title IX. That is my point.

[naraht]

And my point is Title IX did not force us to declare ourselves as a social sorority. We did that when we were founded. So for us Title IX was moot.
We are first and foremost a sisterhood founded for public service. The sisterhood is what makes us social.

And I don't need to work through the text of anything. As a member for 38 years, I know the inner workings of my sorority--you don't.

My apologies for misreading. I thought that you were claiming that Title IX didn't apply to you based on IRS status. A6a certainly applies!

I sort of wish you had been over on Wikipedia, I've been dealing with this overthere for quite sometime, with an Alpha Phi Alpha brother declaring that Alpha Phi Alpha is a service fraternity. Information from the NIC (which APhiA also belongs to) bylaws hasn't been incredibly convincing to him. And for some reason Alpha Phi Alpha's constitution and bylaws aren't published online...

Any suggestions for gifts for our Elementary School Principal (who is a DST) for taking a promotion to Title I director for our school system (Montgomery County Maryland)



Randy

[naraht]

The things that cancel groups like APO out.
Could you be a *tiny* bit more specific? :)

[ladygreek]

I think what the question that will eventually be asked is this:

What is the difference (other than Title IX) between Delta declaring themselves to be a service sorority and Alpha Phi Omega actually being a service fraternity? Is it a matter of substance over form? Just curious...
Why will this question be asked? As I said what Delta is, is a sisterhood. What she does is public service. And we believe that the quality of our service is only as strong as our sisterhood. So it is first priority.

[naraht]

I think what the question that will eventually be asked is this:

What is the difference (other than Title IX) between Delta declaring themselves to be a service sorority and Alpha Phi Omega actually being a service fraternity? Is it a matter of substance over form? Just curious...
I think the primary differences are probably Title IX and mutual exclusivity. All of the rules for mutual exclusivity I've seen have been for social greeks though I think someone said they affect some of the music professional groups (Sigma Alpha Iota?, Delta Omicron? a few others?)

[Senusret I]

I sort of wish you had been over on Wikipedia, I've been dealing with this overthere for quite sometime, with an Alpha Phi Alpha brother declaring that Alpha Phi Alpha is a service fraternity. Information from the NIC (which APhiA also belongs to) bylaws hasn't been incredibly convincing to him. And for some reason Alpha Phi Alpha's constitution and bylaws aren't published online...



Tell him I SAID APhiA is not a service fraternity! You don't need our bylaws to prove that.

Social fraternities and sororities have certain hallmarks. Who is that guy, anyway?

Anyway, I'm going to bed.

[ladygreek]

My apologies for misreading. I thought that you were claiming that Title IX didn't apply to you based on IRS status. A6a certainly applies!

I sort of wish you had been over on Wikipedia, I've been dealing with this overthere for quite sometime, with an Alpha Phi Alpha brother declaring that Alpha Phi Alpha is a service fraternity. Information from the NIC (which APhiA also belongs to) bylaws hasn't been incredibly convincing to him. And for some reason Alpha Phi Alpha's constitution and bylaws aren't published online...

Any suggestions for gifts for our Elementary School Principal (who is a DST) for taking a promotion to Title I director for our school system (Montgomery County Maryland)



Randy
A beautiful ebony elephant with ivory tusks! :D

[DSTCHAOS]

Any suggestions for gifts for our Elementary School Principal (who is a DST) for taking a promotion to Title I director for our school system (Montgomery County Maryland)


Get her what you would give her if she wasn't a Delta.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Could you be a *tiny* bit more specific? :)

Naraht, I don't think you wanna ask that question to her. Trust me, let it go...

[KAPital PHINUst]

Why will this question be asked? As I said what Delta is, is a sisterhood. What she does is public service. And we believe that the quality of our service is only as strong as our sisterhood. So it is first priority.

(at bolded) So what are the core elements that separates Delta from Alpha Phi Omega if both are about brother/sisterhood and [public] service?

[naraht]

Reread her last post and then reread my response. Delta was not forced to make any declaration because of Title IX. That is my point.

If you are refering to me (Naraht/Randy), I'm a guy. (And I apologized for not getting her point. I think on that we are now in agreement, DST doesn't have to worry about Title IX since they are a Social Sorority.)

[naraht]

i'm pretty sure that jersey city university steps- or at least they did at one of the conferences a few years ago
Cool, I wish it had ended up on YouTube!

[ladygreek]

If you are refering to me (Naraht/Randy), I'm a guy. (And I apologized for not getting her point. I think on that we are now in agreement, DST doesn't have to worry about Title IX since they are a Social Sorority.)

My apologies, for some reason I thought you were female. Mea culpa.

[naraht]

Tell him I SAID APhiA is not a service fraternity! You don't need our bylaws to prove that.

Social fraternities and sororities have certain hallmarks. Who is that guy, anyway?

Anyway, I'm going to bed.
Well he hasn't responded in a while on the talk page for the NPHC article, if he does I'll drop you a line and *you* can argue with him. :)

[naraht]

My apologies, for some reason I thought you were female. Mea culpa.

No problem. It isn't like being in Alpha Phi Omega is a clue either way. :) OTOH, for NPHC greeks it definitely does. (Well, not counting MIAKA, but I think I'll wait on asking about MIAKA until I have no desire to live left)

[DSTCHAOS]

No problem. It isn't like being in Alpha Phi Omega is a clue either way. :) OTOH, for NPHC greeks it definitely does. (Well, not counting MIAKA, but I think I'll wait on asking about MIAKA until I have no desire to live left)

Huh?

[ladygreek]

(at bolded) So what are the core elements that separates Delta from Alpha Phi Omega if both are about brother/sisterhood and [public] service?

I have no idea since I know nothing about APO, except what I have read here,nor do I care to know. But one may be that you started as Boy Scouts and we didn't. :confused:

btw, came from a Scouting family--father an Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow and troop leader, mother a GS troop leader, me from Brownie all the way through MAriner Scout--camp counselor and troop leader. So I am not knocking Scouting.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Naraht, you remember the days we used to post on APO-L? I still read the online archives from time to time. Matter of fact, I have known you 12 years and only via the Internet. I gotta make a note to meet you in person sometime. I came a LONG way from APO-L, as you may remember. ;) But I digress....

PS, I still think we should collaborate and write a REAL Alpha Phi Omega history book :)

[DSTCHAOS]

I have no idea since I know nothing about APO, except what I have read here,nor do I care to know. But one may be that you started as Boy Scouts and we didn't. :confused:

LOL.

The difference that I see is that APO started as a focus on service through which brotherhood can be realized.

We started as a focus on sisterhood through which service and empowered communities can be realized.

btw, came from a Scouting family--father an Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow and troop leader, mother a GS troop leader, me from Brownie all the way through MAriner Scout--camp counselor and troop leader. So I am not knocking Scouting.

I was a Brownie. The worst thing ever. It served as nothing but a reinforcement of gender stereotypes and expectations. Maybe that was just my Brownie leaders who sucked.

[naraht]

(at bolded) So what are the core elements that separates Delta from Alpha Phi Omega if both are about brother/sisterhood and [public] service?

A very good question. I think there are certain things that members of both could agree on that are part of their history. For APO, its historical tie to Boy Scouts of America and for DST, its historical tie to the African American Community.

DST has community chapters (I think all of the NPHC do, but I'm not sure) that allow women to join after college. APO's alumni associations can't do that.

I don't know if the changes in membership intake process in the 1990s to limit pledging represents a significant difference or not.

[KAPital PHINUst]

I have no idea since I know nothing about APO, except what I have read here,nor do I care to know. But one may be that you started as Boy Scouts and we didn't. :confused:

(at Scouting) Good point. I only asked b/c I always figured if the true intent of our orgs was to serve in some capacity, there should be/have been a lot less inter-org disputes about trivial matters that had nothing to do with the reason why our respective orgs exist.

btw, THAT was, is, and has ALWAYS been my platform ever since I joined Greekchat. ;)

btw, came from a Scouting family--father an Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow and troop leader, mother a GS troop leader, me from Brownie all the way through MAriner Scout--camp counselor and troop leader. So I am not knocking Scouting.

Good deal!! At least I get spared from the "ManScout" jokes from you *lol* (not that it had ever bothered me, but still.... :)

[naraht]

Huh?

MiAKA = Men interest AKA.
http://www.fox11az.com/news/topstories/stories/KMSB-20060307-khoubp-sororitypics.2b127edb.html

[DSTCHAOS]

(I think all of the NPHC do, but I'm not sure)

Correct.

I don't know if the changes in membership intake process in the 1990s to limit pledging represents a significant difference or not.


Why would it?

[DSTCHAOS]

MiAKA = Men interest AKA.

I know what they are.

What do they have to do with anything?

[naraht]

Naraht, you remember the days we used to post on APO-L? I still read the online archives from time to time. Matter of fact, I have known you 12 years and only via the Internet. I gotta make a note to meet you in person sometime. I came a LONG way from APO-L, as you may remember. ;) But I digress....

PS, I still think we should collaborate and write a REAL Alpha Phi Omega history book :)
Unfortunately, not sure of your name IRL. Drop me a PM...

[DSTCHAOS]

btw, THAT was, is, and has ALWAYS been my platform ever since I joined Greekchat. ;)

Liar.

[ladygreek]

LOL.

The difference that I see is that APO started as a focus on service through which brotherhood can be realized.

We started as a focus on sisterhood through which service and empowered communities can be realized.



I was a Brownie. The worst thing ever. It served as nothing but a reinforcement of gender stereotypes and expectations. Maybe that was just my Brownie leaders who sucked.
My Mom was my leader, so I didn't have much choice. But from there to GS we were always a very "feminist" group--our good soror, my Mom didn't play the gender sterotype. :D Shoot we even had outings with my Dad's troop and trust, all genders played equal roles in cooking, cleaning, pitching tents, starting the firepit, etc. We were ahead of the times.

I would say that my Scouting years were a major player in the development of me as an independent woman. I could shoot a bow and arrow with the best of the guys and still look cute doing it. LOL

[naraht]

I have no idea since I know nothing about APO, except what I have read here,nor do I care to know. But one may be that you started as Boy Scouts and we didn't. :confused:

btw, came from a Scouting family--father an Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow and troop leader, mother a GS troop leader, me from Brownie all the way through MAriner Scout--camp counselor and troop leader. So I am not knocking Scouting.
Fair enough. And my knowledge of DST is largely limited to books (though relevant books on the NPHC).

However I will say that my wife has commented that the school where she went (Frostburg State) had DST and a certain NPHC sorority older than DST and that DST was the one that was actually willing to talk to her during the organizational fair given that she is caucasian.

I didn't have any of the NPHC GLOs at my College... (Carnegie-Mellon)

Quite a scouting family!

[KAPital PHINUst]

LOL.

The difference that I see is that APO started as a focus on service through which brotherhood can be realized.

We started as a focus on sisterhood through which service and empowered communities can be realized.

I was a Brownie. The worst thing ever. It served as nothing but a reinforcement of gender stereotypes and expectations. Maybe that was just my Brownie leaders who sucked.

Chaos, you know what?

You just helped me answer my own question (btw your first answer was almost 100% correct). APO actually started as a focus on SCOUTING through which brotherhood can be realized. The service aspect was merely an incidental aspect of Scouting. APO was not officially classified as a Service fraternity until 1940, 15 years after our founding.

So in essence, the (at least original) difference b/t APO and Delta was with APO, it's focus was on Scouting with an emphasis on brotherhood, whereas with Delta, its focus is/was on sisterhood with an emphasis on service.

[DSTCHAOS]

My Mom was my leader, so I didn't have much choice. But from there to GS we were always a very "feminist" group--our good soror, my Mom didn't play the gender sterotype. :D Shoot we even had outings with my Dad's troop and trust, all genders played equal roles in cooking, cleaning, pitching tents, starting the firepit, etc. We were ahead of the times.

I would say that my Scouting years were a major player in the development of me as an independent woman. I could shoot a bow and arrow with the best of the guys and still look cute doing it. LOL

See, I was deprived. :mad: I always thought the Scout thing was nonsense because of the whole gender thing.

[DSTCHAOS]

You just helped me answer my own question.

DUH.

[naraht]

LOL.

The difference that I see is that APO started as a focus on service through which brotherhood can be realized.

We started as a focus on sisterhood through which service and empowered communities can be realized.

Actually, arguably we started as a focus on the scout oath and law as a standard of manhood.

From "The story behind the founding", in our pledge ceremony and pledge manual.

(The I is Frank Reed Horton, our founder)
Because of these experiences, I made a firm resolution within myself that if I returned alive, I would try to do two things and do them with all my power. First, do my best to help young people get the right start in life by holding up before them a "standard of manhood" that would withstand the test of time! Second and just as important, try to help the nations of the world settle their disputes in a more sensible and legal manner than by war.

After the war, I became a student at Lafayette College, Easton, Pennsylvania. One evening, while attending an American Legion banquet during my sophomore year, I sat next to an inspiring man named Herbert G. Horton. We were not related but we became fast friends. He, too, had been a naval officer but was now serving as the local Scout Executive. He helped me to become a Deputy Scout Commissioner. One of the troops needed a leader, so I became a Scoutmaster as well.

Through these experiences, I found that the Scout Oath and Law were what I had been seeking - a standard of manhood that would withstand the test of time and a code of ideals created and accepted by some of the greatest leaders the world has ever known


I was a Brownie. The worst thing ever. It served as nothing but a reinforcement of gender stereotypes and expectations. Maybe that was just my Brownie leaders who sucked.
Entirely possible!

[naraht]

I would say that my Scouting years were a major player in the development of me as an independent woman. I could shoot a bow and arrow with the best of the guys and still look cute doing it. LOL

Congrats!

[KAPital PHINUst]

Liar.

No, that is actually very much true, although my platform nowadays has been altered somewhat. My platform now is moreso on diversity, not the shallow tolerance/tokenism you oftentimes see, but a true embracement and respect of cultures different from our own. I think each culture has something valuable they can learn from another culture.

My other platform is on male empowerment (which I'm sure you remember, though IMO I have toned down considerably from the old days).

[naraht]

Chaos, you know what?

You just helped me answer my own question (btw your first answer was almost 100% correct). APO actually started as a focus on SCOUTING through which brotherhood can be realized. The service aspect was merely an incidental aspect of Scouting. APO was not officially classified as a Service fraternity until 1940, 15 years after our founding.

So in essence, the (at least original) difference b/t APO and Delta was with APO, it's focus was on Scouting with an emphasis on brotherhood, whereas with Delta, its focus is/was on sisterhood with an emphasis on service.

1940 sounds about right, I'll have to back through the T&Ts with the results of the Indianapolis 1940 convention.

And I'm willing to take your "in essence" at least for Alpha Phi Omega...

[DSTCHAOS]

Actually, arguably we started as a focus on the scout oath and law as a standard of manhood.

From "The story behind the founding", in our pledge ceremony and pledge manual.

(The I is Frank Reed Horton, our founder)
Because of these experiences, I made a firm resolution within myself that if I returned alive, I would try to do two things and do them with all my power. First, do my best to help young people get the right start in life by holding up before them a "standard of manhood" that would withstand the test of time! Second and just as important, try to help the nations of the world settle their disputes in a more sensible and legal manner than by war.

After the war, I became a student at Lafayette College, Easton, Pennsylvania. One evening, while attending an American Legion banquet during my sophomore year, I sat next to an inspiring man named Herbert G. Horton. We were not related but we became fast friends. He, too, had been a naval officer but was now serving as the local Scout Executive. He helped me to become a Deputy Scout Commissioner. One of the troops needed a leader, so I became a Scoutmaster as well.

Through these experiences, I found that the Scout Oath and Law were what I had been seeking - a standard of manhood that would withstand the test of time and a code of ideals created and accepted by some of the greatest leaders the world has ever known

And it is through service that the standard of manhood is realized and mobilized.

I won't comment on the loaded notion of a "standard of manhood."

[DSTCHAOS]

No, that is actually very much true, although my platform nowadays has been altered somewhat. My platform now is moreso on diversity, not the shallow tolerance/tokenism you oftentimes see, but a true embracement and respect of cultures different from our own. I think each culture has something valuable they can learn from another culture.

My other platform is on male empowerment (which I'm sure you remember, though IMO I have toned down considerably from the old days).


Running for Kappa office?

[ladygreek]

(at Scouting) Good point. I only asked b/c I always figured if the true intent of our orgs was to serve in some capacity, there should be/have been a lot less inter-org disputes about trivial matters that had nothing to do with the reason why our respective orgs exist.


Again read the history on who was founded to do public service. And not to offend the other NPHCers, but for most of them the idea of being a service organization is relatively new--like in the last two decades.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that is now the emphasis for all of us, but it wasn't always. So thus the rivalrys that existed and in some places are hard to break.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Naraht, as a side note, did you know that there is a relatively new fraternity that is picking up where Alpha Phi Omega left off, so to speak?

The fraternity is named Epsilon Tau Pi, founded in 1999 at the University of Dayton, and membership is restricted to former Eagle Scouts.

I'll give you the weblink if interested.

[naraht]

And it is through service that the standard of manhood is realized and mobilized.

I won't comment on the loaded notion of a "standard of manhood."

Actually, it was worse at the beginning. Gotta love the phrase "Manly strength"

As of the 1926 Yearbook at Lafayette College

The purpose of the fraternity shall be to assemble those who have had experience and training under the Scout Oath and Laws, to revive the spirit of that Oath and Law, to develop friendship, to encourage encourage service, and to enable its members to become leaders of America's youth, through character-building, citizenship, college spirit and manly strength.

See
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~library/sp.../APOPhoto.html

Today (2007)
The purpose of this Fraternity shall be to assemble college students in a National Service Fraternity inthe fellowship of principles derived from the Scout Oath and Law of the Boy Scouts of America; to developLeadership, to promote Friendship, and to provide Service to humanity; and to further the freedom that is ournational, educational, and intellectual heritage

Randy

[KAPital PHINUst]

Running for Kappa office?

I already hold a Kappa office. But thanks for asking. ;)

[KAPital PHINUst]

Actually, it was worse at the beginning. Gotta love the phrase "Manly strength"

As of the 1926 Yearbook at Lafayette College

The purpose of the fraternity shall be to assemble those who have had experience and training under the Scout Oath and Laws, to revive the spirit of that Oath and Law, to develop friendship, to encourage encourage service, and to enable its members to become leaders of America's youth, through character-building, citizenship, college spirit and manly strength.

See
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~library/sp.../APOPhoto.html

Hey, if Alpha Phi Alpha can have "manly deeds", Alpha Phi Omega can have "manly strength" *lol*

btw, link is dead.

[naraht]

Naraht, as a side note, did you know that there is a relatively new fraternity that is picking up where Alpha Phi Omega left off, so to speak?

The fraternity is named Epsilon Tau Pi, founded in 1999 at the University of Dayton, and membership is restricted to former Eagle Scouts.

I'll give you the weblink if interested.

I'm very aware of Epsilon Tau Pi and had an email discussion with one of their members. Alpha Phi Omega never limited itself to only those who had earned eagle scout (you get some people who are very touchy about the term "former eagle scout", with "once an eagle, always an eagle). In fact at least three chapters in the early years of the fraternity were chastised by the National Fraternity for limiting themselves to only Eagle Scouts and early years of the Fraternity magazine contain reminders of that.

Because of that, I don't think of them picking up where we left off.
Having said that, I hope that the APO chapter at Dayton and ETPi work together on service to scouting.

[naraht]

See
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~library/sp.../APOPhoto.html

Hey, if Alpha Phi Alpha can have "manly deeds", Alpha Phi Omega can have "manly strength" *lol*

btw, link is dead.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, was copying from another thread which compressed in. Try
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~library/special/Alpha/APOPhoto.html

It looks the same, but the link works.
or http://ww2.lafayette.edu/ ~library/special/Alpha/APOPhoto.html this with removing the space before the tilde.

[DSTCHAOS]

I already hold a Kappa office. But thanks for asking. ;)

God bless them.

[naraht]

God bless them.

Because with him as an officer, they'll need the blessing? :D

[KAPital PHINUst]

Alpha Phi Omega never limited itself to only those who had earned eagle scout

Hence the "so to speak" remark in my post.

Because of that, I don't think of them picking up where we left off.


Where is Scouting in APO now? I don't know too many folk who join APO because of its ties to Scouting or emphasis thereof. I hear very little talk about Scouting in APO. Where is the emphasis on Scouting in APO today?

[KAPital PHINUst]

God bless them.

And how!!

[naraht]

Hence the "so to speak" remark in my post.



Where is Scouting in APO now? I don't know too many folk who join APO because of its ties to Scouting or emphasis thereof. I hear very little talk about Scouting in APO. Where is the emphasis on Scouting in APO today?

Many Alpha Phi Omega chapters continue to do merit badge days. I personally know of several that sponsor Boy Scout troops. Cleaning Scout Camps, helping with Jamborees.

The Scout Oath and Law are in the pledge manual and in fact are larger than the were 10 years ago. We remain with a half page synopsis in the Boy Scout Handbook. Working with Alpha Phi Omega is one way to fulfill one of the requirements to complete the Trust Award in Venturing. The Herbert G. Horton Service to Youth Award is one of the awards giving a scout/scouter the right to wear the generic Boy Scout Community Organization Award Square Knot.

No it isn't the same as back when Local Boy Scout Council leaders would encourage brothers to get BSA Professional Training after College to become a District Executive, but it is still here.

I'm calling it a night at this point. Great conversation and I'll try to pick this up tomorrow afternoon...

[ladygreek]

Because with him as an officer, they'll need the blessing? :D

Oh yeah. But you need to make the distinction between an officer and an office holder. Different legal ramifications. Considering his short time in the org., I hope it is just the latter.

[33girl]

I am SOOOOOOOO excited that someone in their first post bumping a SEVEN YEAR OLD THREAD was able to bring this up for the ookabillionth time.

http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1174330218-1174246006011.jpg

[KAPital PHINUst]

I am SOOOOOOOO excited that someone in their first post bumping a SEVEN YEAR OLD THREAD was able to bring this up for the ookabillionth time.

Glad we were able to help you. We aims to please.

[DSTRen13]

Why will this question be asked? As I said what Delta is, is a sisterhood. What she does is public service. And we believe that the quality of our service is only as strong as our sisterhood. So it is first priority.

I tend to explain this as Delta is a service-minded social sorority. OPhiA is a sometimes-social service sorority. The first priority is different. As you have stated, with Delta, the service aspect cannot be accomplished without sisterhood. With OPhiA, the sisterhood cannot be accomplished without service.

:)

[DSTRen13]

I was a Brownie. The worst thing ever. It served as nothing but a reinforcement of gender stereotypes and expectations. Maybe that was just my Brownie leaders who sucked.



SERIOUSLY! I have several friends who had great experiences with Girl Scouts, but we didn't go camping or learn survival skills or anything --- they had the Mary Kay ladies come and teach us how to "properly" care for our skin!!! (We were in elementary school, and we were supposed to have a whole facial regimen? For real?) I think we may have also learned how to sew or something ...

[mccoyred]

I already hold a Kappa office. But thanks for asking. ;)


*faints*

[KAPital PHINUst]

*faints*

*LOLOLOLOL*

[DSTCHAOS]

SERIOUSLY! I have several friends who had great experiences with Girl Scouts, but we didn't go camping or learn survival skills or anything --- they had the Mary Kay ladies come and teach us how to "properly" care for our skin!!! (We were in elementary school, and we were supposed to have a whole facial regimen? For real?) I think we may have also learned how to sew or something ...



Yay!!! Gender lives on!!!

[Virtuous Woman]

I tend to explain this as Delta is a service-minded social sorority. OPhiA is a sometimes-social service sorority. The first priority is different. As you have stated, with Delta, the service aspect cannot be accomplished without sisterhood. With OPhiA, the sisterhood cannot be accomplished without service.


That is the best explanation of the differences that I've ever heard. Thanks!

[linaevoli]

I thought they were a Christian fraternity. Was I wrong?


------------------

Alpha Nu Omega is the christian sorority/fraternity