Religion question... [Archive] - GreekChat.com Forums

valkyrie

06-07-2003, 02:24 PM

What an interesting thread!

I was raised Presbyterian, but my family wasn't all hard core about it. In fact, my father hasn't been to church since he was a kid (he was raised Catholic) and he doesn't believe in God. My mother was the one who took me, and I went to confirmation classes and was confirmed when I was in 8th grade. At the time, I wasn't really into religion, but I figured I probably believed in it as much as I could at that young age.

Since I was about 18, I have been curious about other religions because I just don't believe in the teachings of Christianity and I don't believe in God. If I'm anything, I'm a non-practicing Buddhist. I say that because I believe in the teachings and principles of Buddhism and I try to live my life according to my understanding of them, but I don't "sit" or go to a temple.

I don't really think it was a bad thing that I was confirmed, but I don't think that 8th grade is old enough to be making any declarations about religion because you're too young to really, truly understand it. I don't have a problem with parents teaching their children about religion and exposing them to it, but I also don't think that (at least for me) it is appropriate to practice or believe in a religion just because it's what my parents taught me. Honestly, I have *tried* to believe in God and I think that I would find it very comforting to do so, but when it comes down to it, I just don't.

If I ever have a kid (and that's not really my plan at this time) I think that I would probably try to educate him or her about different religions so that he/she could make an educated decision about religion when/if desired.

To me at least, religion or being spiritual is a very personal issue and decision. I don't care for confirmation at all, because I don't see the point of it. I guess I don't care much for organized religion at all. I don't think that whether you're confirmed or a memeber of a church or a temple or whatever is important. I think that what's inside you and what you believe is.

justamom

06-07-2003, 02:30 PM

Catholics around here get confirmed their Junior year in HS.
They are still under the pressure of their parents and peers.
It's a very serious statement you make in regards to your beliefs and promises.

I think it would be far better, honest and more meaningful if the time was an individual choice. However, too many would most likely put it off and forget about it. It IS viewed as a grace which is a gift and empowers us against evil. Tough call.

KappaKittyCat

06-07-2003, 02:35 PM

I was confirmed into the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in 8th grade, when I was thirteen. I had no say in the matter.

If given the choice-- and by "choice" I mean "a decision made free from emotional blackmail"-- when I was thirteen I probably would have gotten confirmed anyway. If confirmation in the LCMS were later, say junior or senior year in high school, then I probably would not have.

I've since fallen away from the Church. I don't like its philosophy of guilt, its presumptively judgemental nature, or its misogynist and patronizing attitudes towards women. I agree with Valkyrie that religion or being spiritual is a very personal issue. I consider myself a very spiritual person and I still go to church on occasion, but most of the time I'm not religious.

It's all the same thing to me, anyway.

Eclipse

06-07-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by aephi alum
There's an interesting thread in the AKA forum about conversion... a few people (myself included) have said that they went through with confirmation into their childhood faith mainly because they were expected to by their families and communities.

So I'm wondering what you think about confirmation ages...

What does your faith do (if applicable) as far as confirmation/coming of age? What does being confirmed mean in terms of rights and responsibilities? At what age are you confirmed? And do you think that age is too young, too old, or just right?

If you're agnostic, atheist, or your faith doesn't have a confirmation - what do you think of confirmation ages in general?

I know this has the potential to get controversial... let's keep it civil :)

I am one of those people who talked about being confirmed because of expectations, not because of any internal change. As a Christian I think it is important for parents to realize that they cannot "make" their children be Christians. Christianity is about an inward change, not an outward declaration. You can make all of the outward declarations in the world, but if there had not been a true, inward change, then it really means nothing in the eyes of God.

I think parents should explain what giving your life to Christ means (if they are Christians) and let the child know it is their decision and what the consequences are. I'm not sure where this is, but I think the Bible says something about children being covered by their parents until they are at the "age of cencent." and at that point they are kinda on their own with salvation.

To answer your question, I attend a Baptist church and my pastor makes certain when a little kid comes down to "give his/her life to Christ" that they are doing it because they want to, not because their parents told them too. IF the kids says I came down because mama told me too he has a little talk with the parent saying I know you want your child to be saved, but this is not the way, etc. It's very loving and gentle. He then tells the child when THEY are ready to come back and if they have any questions about God, etc. to ask. I think that is the best way.

Bottom line, I think children should be taught about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit from the moment they come out of the womb, but they ultimately need to make the decision.

Cluey

06-07-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Eclipse
I think parents should explain what giving your life to Christ means (if they are Christians) and let the child know it is their decision and what the consequences are. I'm not sure where this is, but I think the Bible says something about children being covered by their parents until they are at the "age of cencent." and at that point they are kinda on their own with salvation.

Bottom line, I think children should be taught about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit from the moment they come out of the womb, but they ultimately need to make the decision.

That is what I was going to say, only more eloquent.

As a baby, I was dedicated in the Southern Baptist church. My whole family went to that church and it was all I ever knew. Then, when I was about 8, my aunt and uncle converted to the Lutheran Church. I would go to church with them from time to time and it really helped broaden my knowledge of religion.

My sunday school group hardly ever changed, so we all knew everybody else. At about age 11, there were only about 4 of us that had not "taken the plunge" (Southern Baptists use immersion for baptism).

I finally decided to be baptized when I was 14. At my church, baptism was always referred to as the outward action of the inner change. I really didn't think I could make that kind of decision until I was older. The other kids who were baptized at the same service were 4, 5, and 8. At those ages, I couldn't have known enough to make an informed decision, but everyone is different.

I never felt pressure from my family, honestly. My parents knew that everything would work out in God's own time. It was a bizzare coincidence, though, that I was baptized on Mother's Day. My mom cried and said that she couldn't have asked for a better present... :)

Kevin

06-07-2003, 03:21 PM

There was never much pressure to go through with any particular religion in my family. Yet, I was raised a Catholic.

I was confirmed either my Sophomore or Junior year. We were required to attend a class for a year and at the end there was a ceremony. The archbishop presides over the ceremony. You sign your name in a book (symbollic of the acts of the early Christians) -- then he lays hands on your head, also symbollic of the acts of early Christians.

aephi alum

06-07-2003, 03:34 PM

Answering my own question :)

I went through Confirmation as a Catholic at the end of 8th grade. I was one of the youngest in my class, so I was still 12. At the time, I was starting to doubt whether I really wanted to be Catholic. If it had been up to me, I would have asked to put it off for a year or two until I'd sorted some things through, and most likely never would have done it. But it was quite clear to me that if I wanted a roof over my head, I was getting confirmed on schedule.

Judaism is a little different. You become bar or bat mitzvah at age 13 (12 for Orthodox girls). You are then considered an adult - whether or not you participate in a bat/bat mitzvah ceremony, chant from the Torah, and have a big expensive party afterwards. (In fact, the idea of a bat mitzvah ceremony for a girl is fairly new.)

There is also a confirmation, which in my congregation happens in 10th grade. To be confirmed, you have to continue studying over and above the requirements for a bar/bat mitzvah ceremony. But being confirmed is the exception rather than the rule.

The problem is that the age of adulthood in many faiths was set back when 12 and 13 year olds could and did go off and get married and set up their own households. Nowadays, our culture and laws consider you a child until you're 18. I think you have to make a decision like confirmation of your own free will, and if you're going to be stuck as a child in your parents' house for the next five years, you don't really have that freedom.

My hypothetical future children will be going to Sunday school and Hebrew school, but if they then decide they don't want a bar/bat mitzvah ceremony or to continue studying and be confirmed, that's their decision and I'll respect it (although I will be disappointed).

KappaKittyCat

06-07-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Eclipse
I attend a Baptist church and my pastor makes certain when a little kid comes down to "give his/her life to Christ" that they are doing it because they want to, not because their parents told them too. IF the kids says I came down because mama told me too he has a little talk with the parent saying I know you want your child to be saved, but this is not the way, etc. It's very loving and gentle. He then tells the child when THEY are ready to come back and if they have any questions about God, etc. to ask. I think that is the best way.
If I had told my pastor that I had reservations but was going through with confirmation because my parents wanted me to, my momma would have tanned my hide the minute we got home from church.

ETA: I guess, upon reflection, my biggest problem with most types of Christianity is that they use fear to manipulate children. Not cool.

33girl

06-07-2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by KappaKittyCat
I was confirmed into the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in 8th grade, when I was thirteen. I had no say in the matter.

If given the choice-- and by "choice" I mean "a decision made free from emotional blackmail"-- when I was thirteen I probably would have gotten confirmed anyway. If confirmation in the LCMS were later, say junior or senior year in high school, then I probably would not have.

I've since fallen away from the Church. I don't like its philosophy of guilt, its presumptively judgemental nature, or its misogynist and patronizing attitudes towards women. I agree with Valkyrie that religion or being spiritual is a very personal issue. I consider myself a very spiritual person and I still go to church on occasion, but most of the time I'm not religious.

It's all the same thing to me, anyway.

Hey, KKC, come on over to the ELCA - all the pomp, none of the guilt LOL. Did you ever see the Cheers where Woody thought Kelly was going to go to hell because she was ELCA and he was Missouri Synod?

Anyway, I am Lutheran and our confirmation age is 9th grade (you get confirmed on the Pentecost of that year). You are then considered an adult in the eyes of the church. This used to be first communion age also, but that was changed and it is getting progressively younger. I think kids can now commune at age 7. Which trips me out, cause we use real wine. :p

polarpi

06-07-2003, 03:57 PM

I go to a United Church of Christ congregation and the confirmation age is 9th grade. I joined the church my senior year, and I went through confirmation at 17 years of age (but I had been baptized at the age of 7). In our church it is a very traditional congregation where most members families have been attending this church for more than one generation, so there is an expectation on the children that they will go through confirmation in the ninth grade. I think it depends on the individual....some are fully committed and ready to go through confirmation, and others are going through because their parents "expect them to". A neat thing I saw last year was one of the members of the confirmation class was unable to go through confirmation with the rest of her class. The others went through on the original date, but when the other member was ready to go through a while later, the rest of the class came back and went through the confirmation ceremony all over again with her. It was the most touching thing I've ever seen! :)

aephi alum

06-07-2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by 33girl
Anyway, I am Lutheran and our confirmation age is 9th grade (you get confirmed on the Pentecost of that year). You are then considered an adult in the eyes of the church. This used to be first communion age also, but that was changed and it is getting progressively younger. I think kids can now commune at age 7. Which trips me out, cause we use real wine. :p

Interesting. In the Catholic Church you have your first communion when you're in 2nd grade. It's a big deal - girls wear white dresses and veils, boys wear suits, there's a full Mass and the first people to receive communion are the boys and girls...

My parents' congregation rarely offered wine, but when they did, yep, it was the real thing.

ok, </hijack> :)

SilverTurtle

06-07-2003, 04:30 PM

I think this is a really interesting topic. I'm very fascinated by religions in general.

I was raised -first- Baptist as a small kid, and then in a Grace Brethren church after about age 8. Both are your basic Christian denominations. There was/is no confirmation age. When a person is ready, they get saved. And as someone else mentioned, baptism is used as an expression of that. Although I was baptized in the baptist church, and then when I joined the GB church I had to be baptized as part of membership. (Which now I think was an odd requirement).

When it comes down to it, I believe in Christ as God's son, etc. However, I really don't accpet any 'church' religions. In fact, I'm very into Taoism & Buddhism as philosophies & draw a lot of parallels between these eastern religions & the teachings of Christ. So I guess none of my religious beliefs would call for confirmation.

I agree that religion is a pretty big decision for most kids, and I imagine the vast majority go through their respective ceremonies simply because that's what they're supposed to be doing at that age.

I can also value some of these ceremonies as "rites of passage" -something that in general is lacking in Western socieities. And some sociologist- type people think is an important step for kids to sort of grow up & 'cross over' into that state. I think if that's the case, 12 & 13 is way too young for our society. But I can respect their purpose in that sense, I guess.

GeekyPenguin

06-07-2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by sigmagrrl
I got confirmed in Catholicism because I was expected to in seventh grade. In seventh grade, I was 11! So, I really had no say, but I can say now that I'm "borderline" Catholic. I don't agree with a lot of its teachings....I can't say I believe 100% in God; I don't know what I believe....

I was confirmed as a Catholic when I was 16 - in WI we do it our junior year of high school. I think that it's a horrible time to do it, because you're experiencing so many questions of faith. I was told my parents would not pay for college if I didn't get confirmed -even though my parents didn't get married in a church and rarely attend. I did it anyway and pretty much only go to Church for weddings and funerals. I dislike the way CCD classes are taught, because I was told to interpret the Bible literally :rolleyes: and that even though God is supposed to be forgiving, he won't forgive you for things like premarital sex, the use of contraception, and abortion. How much sense does that make?

I think I've finally come to terms with my Catholicism now, my theology class (which, although at a Jesuit university, is being taught by a Anglican minister) is really helping me to understand things. I am looking forward to taking a class on American Catholic Thought, it looks interesting.

On a side note, I attended a Methodist church with GPBoy once, and also went there for his funeral. I am very unhappy with Protestant teachings at this point. At the funeral his minister (who knew I was Catholic, as were many of of Lee's friends) went into this thing about how we go to Heaven solely because God saves, not because we lived a good life. I was PO'ed, and still am, about that. A funeral is not the time to be searching for converts.

AlphaSigOU

06-07-2003, 06:14 PM

Baptized a Roman Catholic shortly after I was born (it was expected from the family). Never bothered going to First Communion nor Confirmation, and I'm not much of a practicing Catholic nowadays. Weddings, baptisms and funerals, and that's about it.

I am a firm believer in God as the Supreme Being (otherwise I couldn't become a Mason) and also took an obligation in the Knights Templar (a Masonic appendant body) that I swore to defend the Christian religion. For all intents and purposes, my being a Mason is grounds for excomunication anyway, and there are some teachings of the Catholic Church that I am at odds with.

So maybe I might wind up at the local Episcopal or Anglican church, 'Catholic Light' as some say. :)

Kevin

06-07-2003, 07:07 PM

I think I read that according to the post-Vatican II Catechism of th Catholic Church, it's no longer grounds for excommunication to be involved with the Masons.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

GeekyPenguin

06-07-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by ktsnake
I think I read that according to the post-Vatican II Catechism of th Catholic Church, it's no longer grounds for excommunication to be involved with the Masons.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm curious about this as well, it has been discussed in other threads but I never found a post with the answer. My friend who is a PiPhi and I were discussing this one night (we were confirmed in the same church at the same time) and one of our other Catholic friends swore up and down that involvement in Masonry or any other secret society was grounds for expulsion.

Tom Earp

06-07-2003, 08:54 PM

In Southern B Church. I left at 3 years of age!

Did not join a Church for 11 years.

Became Anglecan Catholic for 4 years before I was Babtised. By My own volition.

Married a Roman Catholic women, and since well, not married. Many stories in between, I love discussusing Theology with People!:)

Relegion is very simple, We all beleive in a Supreme Being, We just call it by a different name!

Most of the Religious Fighting is not about Religion, but Polotics and Land!

Will Rogers, "Get it now, they dont make it anymore"!

The Falacy of Life, I am Me, You are You, But who are We?:confused:

AUDeltaGam

06-07-2003, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Relegion is very simple, We all beleive in a Supreme Being, We just call it by a different name!

Well put! :)

docetboy

06-07-2003, 09:59 PM

I have had a Bar-Mitzvah, one of the days I will always remember. As well as making a journey to the Holy Land 4 years ago.

AlphaSigOU

06-07-2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by ktsnake
I think I read that according to the post-Vatican II Catechism of th Catholic Church, it's no longer grounds for excommunication to be involved with the Masons.

This web page explains the current stance of the Church regarding it and Freemasonry: http://showcase.netins.net/web/clearlight/mason.html#004

QUAESITUM EST
Declaration on Masonic Associations
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church's decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous code.

This sacred congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance is due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore, the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the declaration of this sacred congregation issued Feb. 17,1981. [1]

In an audience granted to the undersigned cardinal prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this sacred congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Nov. 26, 1983

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Prefect

Father Jerome Hamer, O. P. Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary

Notes

1. Cf. AAS 73 (1981) pp. 240-241

Kevin

06-07-2003, 11:16 PM

Great research and there it is.

Guess I'll have to table any hopes of joining the Masons until Vatican III:D

Cluey

06-08-2003, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
A funeral is not the time to be searching for converts.

I totally agree.

In March, a sister of mine from college was killed in a car accident. She was only 19 years old. It was a very traumatic event for everyone involved. The minister that they chose to speak at her funeral did the exact thing you discussed. I almost walked out because he was completely changing the focus of the ceremony. It just made me feel very uncomfortable and I am a believer. I cannot even imagine what others may have been thinking or feeling.

GeekyPenguin

06-08-2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Cluey
I totally agree.

In March, a sister of mine from college was killed in a car accident. She was only 19 years old. It was a very traumatic event for everyone involved. The minister that they chose to speak at her funeral did the exact thing you discussed. I almost walked out because he was completely changing the focus of the ceremony. It just made me feel very uncomfortable and I am a believer. I cannot even imagine what others may have been thinking or feeling.

I just think that is such an inappropriate time to try and evangelize. I was appalled with Lee's ceremony because Lee was not particularily religious and he was a very tolerant person. I am not sure who the minister felt he was consoling, but a considerable amount of us left offended rather than comforted. The fact there wasn't a eulogy compounded on this, but the idea that a minister would use a ceremony that is supposed to bring closure to tell me that my religious beliefs are wrong is just horrible.

KEPike

06-08-2003, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by ktsnake
Guess I'll have to table any hopes of joining the Masons until Vatican III:D

When is Vatican III so I can clear my schedule? :D

Kevin

06-08-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by KEPike
When is Vatican III so I can clear my schedule? :D

Vatican I was in the mid-late 1800's.. Vatican II was in the 60's.

I figure that there's a pretty good chance that the next Pope might be a major reformer judging from the present criticisms others have of the Church.

KappaKittyCat

06-08-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
I just think that is such an inappropriate time to try and evangelize. I was appalled with Lee's ceremony because Lee was not particularily religious and he was a very tolerant person. I am not sure who the minister felt he was consoling, but a considerable amount of us left offended rather than comforted. The fact there wasn't a eulogy compounded on this, but the idea that a minister would use a ceremony that is supposed to bring closure to tell me that my religious beliefs are wrong is just horrible.
Come to think of it, the same thing happened at my Gran's funeral. Gran was a wonderful woman-- a nurse for 51 years, very active in her church, well-known in her small town-- and at her funeral I wanted to hear about what an awesome person she was and how much the community would miss her. Instead I heard about how Jesus saves, and then the last line, "And that's how we know that Velma is now in Heaven." Needless to say, I was a little peeved. Of course she's in Heaven! That goes without saying! And even if you as a pastor have some doubts, I wouldn't suggest expressing those to a grieving family. We all know she's in Heaven! You don't need to prove it to us! TACKY!

*ahem*

Sorry about that.

BTW, 33girl, that episode of Cheers is a classic in my family!

justamom

06-08-2003, 11:52 AM

When my own children were preparing for confirmation, I sat them down and asked if they were SURE they wanted to because it IS an important decision. Yes, I would have had "issues" to deal with if they had decided NOT to do it, but I would have trusted their choice.

Personal opinion-I think raising a child in BOTH Jewish and Christian teachings would be confusing for the child.

I have problems with Christian faiths that condemn others- because a person is Jewish, Catholic, Muslim etc.... It is RAMPANT here and I find myself disliking a person INITIALLY, if I discover they are of one faith in particular. I am working on it, but not getting too far because the people I have contact with are so dead set, they are immovable.

It's very difficult to enjoy the company of someone who thinks you are going straight to hell! :rolleyes:

KillarneyRose

06-08-2003, 12:26 PM

I was raised Catholic and wholeheartedly embraced every aspect of my religion. When it came time for me to be confirmed (at age 14), I was very excited about it.

Over time though, and through sheer laziness more than anything else, I kind of lost touch with the Catholic church and became a "Twice a year" Catholic.

By the time I met my husband, I was rarely attending Mass and he was an Episcopalian who rarely attended services. We were married in a (for lack of a better term) generic Protestant service by a Navy chaplain.

When I was pregnant with our first child, however, we realized that we definitely wanted to raise our children as we were; going to a Mass or service every week and embracing a certain religion. It really wasn't hard to decide that we would raise them as members of the Episcopal Church mainly because I wasn't sure what sort of "paper work" I would need to obtain since their father and I hadn't been married in a Catholic church. Also, I felt comfortable with that faith since it is basically an offshoot of Catholicism.

Last year, it finally felt like the right thing for me to do to be confirmed in the Episcopal Church. So I started taking classes and was received last month (since I had been previously confirmed, I didn't need to be reconfirmed). It's nice for me to be "officially" of the same faith as my husband and daughters, but it's not really something I discuss with my parents since I sense it's something they're not completely comfortable with. My sister, who is an EXTREMELY devout Catholic is very happy for me and I'm glad about that :)

chitownxo

06-08-2003, 12:35 PM

I grew up in the south suburbs of Chicago, and attended a parish which was one of the largest in the Chicago Archdiocese. In our church, confirmation is a two-year process. You start on your journey in the 7th grade, and you make your confirmation at the end of 8th grade. I never questioned that I wanted to be confirmed. My brothers essentially went along with the idea to a) make my parents happy, b) attend the confirmation retreat (which was a free get-out-of school day) and c) get the presents they weren't going to get for graduation. On my parents' part, it was expected that since they were raising us Catholic, we would be confirmed.

After I graduated from college, I went back and taught 8th grade CCD for a while. Although there were a few kids who decided not to make their confirmations, most did. My hometown is overwhelming Catholic - over 90%, and is populated by a lot of former Southside Irish, Poles, and Italians. Tradition is important. If you decide not to send your kids to the Catholic school (which is a good school, but no better than at least two of the public schools here), you send your kids to CCD. They make their Communion in 3rd grade, First Confession in 4th, and they are Confirmed in 8th. Period.

I still attend the church, although I do not agree 100% with all of its teachings. I have looked into other churches and worship styles, but I feel most comfortable here. I find beauty in the service and in the worship of God, and tend to ignore the things I don't agree with. I don't think there's a perfect religion; no matter how inspired any one sect is, it is still being run by fallable humans. I found the religion that works for me, and I am happy that I was Confirmed. Other people in my class have converted to different religions, and I think that's good too. God can be worshiped in many different ways, and there are many beautiful ways to seek him.

swissmiss04

06-08-2003, 01:28 PM

I was raised in the Presbyterian church, which is known for being fairly tolerant and open. (In some people's opinion's, too much so.) I was confirmed in 4th grade, which I admit was a bit young, but my minister knew I was mentally and spiritually old enough to go through with it. My minister was a really cool guy and I felt his sermons were some of the best I've ever heard. He showed how the bible applied to a normal everyday life, and he avoided the hell fire and guilt trips that I've heard in many other churches. But gradually I came to question a lot of things, especially in high school when I started seriously studying the bible. I wondered why it was ok to not do something when the bible said that you had to, or vice versa. And the concept of the trinity confused me. I wasn't a big fan of the "Divine Mysteries" and people saying "It just is, don't question." So I went thru a period where I was a moral but definitely arreligious person, though I still believed in God. I studied every religion I possibly could and came to find Islam. Even for someone who doesn't believe in it, it's such a fascinating religion. And it's one of the three Abrahamic faiths (Judaism and Christianity being the other 2), so I still could follow God. It was a really long process because I wasn't sure if changing my affiliation was for me. Also, being non-Baptist in Alabama isn't what you'd call easy. :)

valkyrie

06-08-2003, 04:03 PM

So I have a related question after reading these posts -- at what point does one decide that there are just so many things about one's religion that she should part ways with it? How do you choose a religion, then, if you're going to convert?

I guess, and I hope this statement doesn't offend anyone because that is not my intent, I just don't understand why people say they're, say, Catholic for example, but they don't really "follow the rules" so to speak. I know someone who considers herself to be CATHOLIC -- very Catholic. She goes to anti-abortion rallies and goes to church all the time and does all of these things based upon what she perceives to be her duty as a Catholic. However, she is also separated from her husband and has had sex with another guy, while still married. I'm no expert on the Catholic faith, but I'm guessing that's not something that's really promoted. I'm not saying that people should be perfect, but I'm saying that I don't get it.

Wouldn't it make more sense, if you are not going to modify your behavior according to your religious beliefs, to find a faith that agrees at least in large part with your personal beliefs and/or behavior? I hope this makes sense, and again, I hope I don't offend anyone. I just want to understand.

GeekyPenguin

06-08-2003, 04:34 PM

RE: Valkyrie's question

The reason I have stayed Catholic is that I agree with the very fundamentals of the Catholic Church. I don't agree with a lot of other things the Church says, as I'm sure can be picked up from my posts, but I like Catholicism more than I have liked any other religion.

SigkapAlumWSU

06-08-2003, 04:56 PM

My mother was raised Church of England and my father Jewish. Makes for an interesting conbination, I know. Since neither of my parents were practicing in either religeon,I was raised to explore all religions. Although we never went to church or synagog, both my parents told me that they would be happy to take me where I wanted to go. I have always had a belief in a Supreme Being, but until recently I have never put a religious label to it. Recently, I have been exploring Judaism much more in depth. It's so interesting to realize that it is a part of you ethnically, not only as a belief. I still don't attend any services anywhere regularly, as I am still getting comforable with my discovery of my own beliefs. But this winter break, I am planning on going on a trip to Israel, which I think will help me a lot.

swissmiss04

06-08-2003, 05:03 PM

I converted because I had issues w/ gender relations ( and a few other things) as described in the Bible. It seemed to me, especially in Paul's letters to the early church, that it was a necessary evil to marry, fall in love, have sex, etc. Celibacy, besides being damn difficult, is also unhealthy. Love is a gift from God, and it seemed to me like the church wanted to supress it as much as possible which didn't seem natural. Plus there is a lot of stuff in the Bible about women that I didn't agree with, like them remaining silent in church and things like that. Some people say "Oh well, it's not applicable to today's society." Then why did I want to follow the bible? Up until 3 years ago, Alabama had a law banning interracial marriage. Try enforcing that!! It seemed to me to be an impotent document, especially considering the alterations it had thru the centuries. I wasn't sure what to believe. Islam, despite popular lore, grants women lots of rights that are religiously ordained, not just "well hey it's ok if they do this." Like the right of inheritance, right to her own assets, right to divorce, etc. Also, it encourages people to live their lives, within moral boundaries of course. It doesn't regard the human condition as unnatural and there's no concept of original sin. Enough of my preaching, but basically in a nut shell is what influenced me. I'm curious to hear from other people who converted to something other than what they were raised

texas*princess

06-08-2003, 05:31 PM

My family is Catholic and there, we went through Confirmation in the 2nd grade.

aephi alum

06-08-2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by chitownxo
They make their Communion in 3rd grade, First Confession in 4th, and they are Confirmed in 8th. Period.

I thought you had to have had your first confession before your first communion? :confused:

I did both in 2nd grade - first confession was about a month before first communion. Then, confirmation in 8th grade.

chitownxo

06-08-2003, 07:39 PM

Re: AEPHI Alum's question: I thought you had to have had your first confession before your first communion? I don't think there's a hard and fast rule regarding the order in which you first make your Communion and when you make your Confession. My older brother made his on the same day in second grade. We moved that next year, and the parish that I grew up in chooses to do it this way. Other parishes in our area reverse the two sacraments. In my Archdiocese, at least, it seems to be a local decision as to when you experience each sacrament.

Valkyrie, I think you asked a great question. Although I do not agree with every tenet of the Catholic church, I agree with most of them. I don't believe it is possible that I would agree with every tenet of any faith. As for thinking about converting, while I was in my early 20's, I did research other religions. I bought books, talked to friends, talked to preachers and lay people alike and went to other church services. I didn't feel comfortable in any of the other churches. I guess I just knew deep down that this is my religion, this is what I believe, and this is how I like to worship God.

aephi alum

06-08-2003, 07:46 PM

Eclipse

06-08-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
I just think that is such an inappropriate time to try and evangelize. I was appalled with Lee's ceremony because Lee was not particularily religious and he was a very tolerant person. I am not sure who the minister felt he was consoling, but a considerable amount of us left offended rather than comforted. The fact there wasn't a eulogy compounded on this, but the idea that a minister would use a ceremony that is supposed to bring closure to tell me that my religious beliefs are wrong is just horrible.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience at such a difficult time. I have seen ministers do the same thing with grace and others botch it terribily. Once, when I saw it done well, the minister simply said that because the person was a believer we don't have to wonder where they are right now and we can rejoice because they are rejoicing in heaven with their Savior. He then said that if anyone else wanted that same assurance then he would pray for them and all they had to do was asked to be recieved into the body of Christ. No "you are going to hell if you don't" speech. The brother of the woman who had passed away decided to give his life to Christ and the rest of her family was overjoyed. It was a way of turning a sad situation in to a (somewhat) happy one.

Eclipse

06-08-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by valkyrie
So I have a related question after reading these posts -- at what point does one decide that there are just so many things about one's religion that she should part ways with it? How do you choose a religion, then, if you're going to convert?

I guess, and I hope this statement doesn't offend anyone because that is not my intent, I just don't understand why people say they're, say, Catholic for example, but they don't really "follow the rules" so to speak. I know someone who considers herself to be CATHOLIC -- very Catholic. She goes to anti-abortion rallies and goes to church all the time and does all of these things based upon what she perceives to be her duty as a Catholic. However, she is also separated from her husband and has had sex with another guy, while still married. I'm no expert on the Catholic faith, but I'm guessing that's not something that's really promoted. I'm not saying that people should be perfect, but I'm saying that I don't get it.

Wouldn't it make more sense, if you are not going to modify your behavior according to your religious beliefs, to find a faith that agrees at least in large part with your personal beliefs and/or behavior? I hope this makes sense, and again, I hope I don't offend anyone. I just want to understand.

Those are some good questions. I frequently listen to this guy on the radio, Hank Hanagraff who bills himself "The Bible AnswerMan" he's a conservative Christain who has a call in radio show that pretty good. He does not shy away from the tough questions and backs up everything with scriptures. He says (and I know I am going to do a terrible job at quoting him!) that there should be no question among Christians of the essentials of the faith (although we know their are!) like the Trinity, salvation, etc. Other non essentials like pre tribulation versus post tribulation should be debated, with love. I think it's kinda like with your spouse. Would you divorce your spouse if he constantly left the seat up in the bathroom? I hope not! Conversely, you would probably give it STRONG consideration if he cheated on you or became a drug dealer. bathroom seat = non essential cheating = essential . I think if someone disbelieves the essentials of their faith then it is time to go!

I remain a Christian because I believe in it 100%. The things I am still struggling with, I am trying to learn about. There are some things that I was really uncomfortable with about Christianity and not being "fair", but the more I read and learn and study and pray the more I realize *I* was the one wrong, not the faith. I think it is not a true belief system if it doesn't challenge you in some way to be a different person. If you pick and choose from different religions to line up with what you already think I thin you are making yourself the god, not a Supreme Being.

pinkyphimu

06-08-2003, 10:05 PM

and was basically told to shut up and accept what I was told - and I realized that Catholicism doesn't exactly encourage questions and debate.

i am so with you on that one!!! i went to catholic school from k thru 8th grade. in the 3rd grade, we always had to talk about the gospel and homily on mondays. i didn't go to church bc my parents didn't take me. i was 8, was i supposed to hotwire the car and drive myself? well, one monday, i was called on to answer the questions. i had no idea, but i guessed...there are only 4 people who wrote the gospels....lol. the nun figures out that i am only guessing and asks why i didn't go to church. i explain that no one took me. she said that i should tell my parents that i have to go and she proceeded to tell me that if they didn't take me i should take myself. i should walk if i had to bc it was that important to go to church. since i lived 3 miles away from the nearest church, i really didn't think it would be appropriate to walk all by myself!!! did she even think about the safety of an 8 yro walking all that way alone (and she did know where i lived)?

in 5th grade, we were talking about how the isrealites were the "chosen" people and how only they would go to heaven...then at the same time, we were saying how only catholics would go to heaven...so i wanted an explanation. i was basically told by a nun that it just was so there, stop asking. at this point, i was a little wary.

in the 8th grade, i really and truly ended my belief in the catholic church. my teacher that year, a nun, was awesome. she was soooo "cool." one day in health class, we got on the topic of sex and abortion. someone asked if abortion was ok if the woman was raped. she said (and i am COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY NOT LYING) that god would never allow a women to get pregnant unless she enjoyed it. i almost fell out of my chair. to this day, i get totally aggrevated when i think of this. given the statistics that 1 out of 4 women get raped at one point in her lifetime.........i am so angry that this woman would stand in front of a group of children and say this.

in the area that i grew up in, first confession and communion were in grade 2. confirmation occured in each church every three years for 6-8 graders. i was supposed to receive confirmation in the 8th grade, but i switched schools and the new school had confirmation the previous spring. i thought i had escaped, but my mom made me get confirmed at our church. i was in the 10th grade and i even said that i really didn't want to be confirmed and it wasn't what i believed in. it was terrible! my parents aren't even religious!!!

in 2000, my nephew was born and his parents asked me to be his godmother. my mom had arranged his baptism and the priest said that he just needed a letter from my parish priest saying that i was "eligible." my mom lied and said that since i had just moved to massachuettes that i didn't belong to a church yet! the priest said that as soon as i joined one, that i could ask the priest to fill out the appropriate paperwork. i was pissed off!!!!! my sis-in-law's twin brothers were asked to be the godfathers and they couldn't do it either bc they didn't belong to a church. my parents had to stand in as the "official" godparents. my mom got the priest to agree to allow the three of us to stand up at the baptismal fountain, too, but we would not be noted as the god parents. do you want to hear the absolute worst part of this story......my parents do not go to church.....ever. i think the last time my mom went for a mass, without some special reason, was when i was 5. guess what....they write a check out every year for their "church dues." so it really doesn't matter if you are a fit person, just one who pays.

currently, i am a "maria-ist." basically, i believe that there is a higher something, that you should be a good person, treat others well, etc. i do not believe that religion occurs in a building and that you are religious if you go to church/temple/synagoge once per week and then forget the rest of the of the week the teachings of the religion. i am drawn to judaism, but i don't know that i will ever convert. who knows, maybe i will always just be a "maria-ist."

docetboy

06-08-2003, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by pinkyphimu
i do not believe that religion occurs in a building and that you are religious if you go to church/temple/synagoge once per week and then forget the rest of the of the week the teachings of the religion.

I am this same way...one of my largest odds with Christianity and Catholicism is how you are expected to join the church and donate to it, and most of all, confess your sins to a pastor who unfortunately, all-too-commonly is no better then the average person. One thing I love most about Judaism is before the Day of Atonement, you are supposed to forgive anyone you have done a sin too in the past year, and then on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, you are supposed to ask God personally for your forgiveness and a new start for the new year.

I do not believe going to church/synagogue/mosque once a week makes you a better follower of a particular religion, but instead, it is in your heart. While you should always try to follow the sabbath, attending services each week is not necessarily mandatory in order to do so.

I do not currently belong to a synagogue, mostly because I am constantly in a different location (school or home) and I do not know which branch of Judaism best fits me yet. However, I am invited and welcomed to almost every synagogue I go to, even if it is just once a year.

and was basically told to shut up and accept what I was told - and I realized that Catholicism doesn't exactly encourage questions and debate.
In my experiences with Judaism, Rabbis and other scholars have welcomed any question I may have and have tried their best to answer it - both with a traditional Jewish answer and their own personal feelings. As well, all have welcomed and participated in different types of debates...I feel that debate and looking at different religions will only strengthen your faith as it will cause you to look deeper into your religion to find answers...and if not, you are able to convert and then do the same process... (does this make sense??)

chitownxo

06-08-2003, 10:33 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and was basically told to shut up and accept what I was told - and I realized that Catholicism doesn't exactly encourage questions and debate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sorry that some of you have had this experience. Maybe it's because I did not go to Catholic school, but I had the exact opposite experience. My parents, priests, CCD teachers, whomever, always encouraged debate. For example, on the eve of making my confirmation, I went to confession. I walked into the confessional, and asked our parish priest point blank why we needed to go through confession, which I always thought was a stupid thing to do. I mean, why do I need to talk to a priest when I could cut out the middle man and talk to Jesus personally. I thought he was genuinely interested in my point of view, and that made me listen to his views. I thanked him, then went home. I was still confirmed, and confession is still my least-favorite sacrament. When I taught CCD, I encouraged questions. I freely admitted that I did not have the answers; all I could give them were my opinions, backed up by scripture.

OrigamiTulip

06-08-2003, 11:01 PM

I was a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Most Mormon children are baptized at age 8, after they finish their CTR classes. I was baptized at age 14, two years after I began attending the church there. Deep down, I really only believed about half of the teachings, but at the time, I thought that with time and faith, the rest of it would fall into place. As I matured, I realized that it wasn't going to happen that way, and that I had some major misgivings about the basics tenets of the religion. I still believe many of the things I started out believeing, but I've come to realize that those are mostly common sense/living a good life/being a good person type of thing that aren't limited to any one religion. I left the church when I came to college, and looking back I realize that being baptised was probably a mistake, that at 14 I wasn't mature enough to make a wise decision about it. I can't imagine having to make that decision at 8.

Munchkin03

06-09-2003, 12:23 AM

I wasn't raised religiously at all--we celebrated Christmas, and said grace at meals--but that was about it. Today, I'd consider myself an atheist or an agnostic. I have investigated various religions, but I never found one I was 75% happy with, let alone 100% (especially when it came to gender relations and sexuality!). Maybe if I have children, I will decide to raise them in a religious setting.

With that in mind, I believe that around 14 or 15--around the time of Catholic Confirmation is the appropriate time for the introduction into a religious community. The worst battles of adolescence have taken place, and the child has enough of an adult identity to make a somewhat informed decision. I know that where I grew up, social cliques revolved around which church you attended, which impacted the religious attitudes at my very public school. By the time 9th or 10th grade rolls around, those peer pressure issues are less insidious. I also think at that age, someone is more equipped to understand the responsibilities of being an active member of a religious community.

juniorgrrl

06-09-2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by pinkyphimu
i am so with you on that one!!! i went to catholic school from k thru 8th grade. in the 3rd grade, we always had to talk about the gospel and homily on mondays. i didn't go to church bc my parents didn't take me. i was 8, was i supposed to hotwire the car and drive myself? well, one monday, i was called on to answer the questions. i had no idea, but i guessed...there are only 4 people who wrote the gospels....lol. the nun figures out that i am only guessing and asks why i didn't go to church. i explain that no one took me. she said that i should tell my parents that i have to go and she proceeded to tell me that if they didn't take me i should take myself. i should walk if i had to bc it was that important to go to church. since i lived 3 miles away from the nearest church, i really didn't think it would be appropriate to walk all by myself!!! did she even think about the safety of an 8 yro walking all that way alone (and she did know where i lived)?

in 5th grade, we were talking about how the isrealites were the "chosen" people and how only they would go to heaven...then at the same time, we were saying how only catholics would go to heaven...so i wanted an explanation. i was basically told by a nun that it just was so there, stop asking. at this point, i was a little wary.

in the 8th grade, i really and truly ended my belief in the catholic church. my teacher that year, a nun, was awesome. she was soooo "cool." one day in health class, we got on the topic of sex and abortion. someone asked if abortion was ok if the woman was raped. she said (and i am COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY NOT LYING) that god would never allow a women to get pregnant unless she enjoyed it. i almost fell out of my chair. to this day, i get totally aggrevated when i think of this. given the statistics that 1 out of 4 women get raped at one point in her lifetime.........i am so angry that this woman would stand in front of a group of children and say this.

in the area that i grew up in, first confession and communion were in grade 2. confirmation occured in each church every three years for 6-8 graders. i was supposed to receive confirmation in the 8th grade, but i switched schools and the new school had confirmation the previous spring. i thought i had escaped, but my mom made me get confirmed at our church. i was in the 10th grade and i even said that i really didn't want to be confirmed and it wasn't what i believed in. it was terrible! my parents aren't even religious!!!

Wow. I'm so sorry you had such a BAD BAD catholic school experience. I can't imagine how those nuns could say that about pregnancy and "only if she enjoys it" That's horrible.

:eek:

My 8th grade year our pastor went crazy and thought Jesus was coming back and the Virgin Mary was talking back to him...that kinda messed with my head a lot becasue it was right before my dad died. But I've been able to find other parishes that are more "normal" I was confirmed at 16, in my junior year of HS. It was something I thought long and hard about but finally decided to go through with it.

aephi alum

06-09-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by pinkyphimu
one day in health class, we got on the topic of sex and abortion. someone asked if abortion was ok if the woman was raped. she said (and i am COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY NOT LYING) that god would never allow a women to get pregnant unless she enjoyed it.

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/eek2.gif

aephi alum

06-09-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by chitownxo
I am sorry that some of you have had this experience. Maybe it's because I did not go to Catholic school, but I had the exact opposite experience. My parents, priests, CCD teachers, whomever, always encouraged debate.

You're very fortunate, then, and so are your students.

The question I asked wasn't even a "hot" debate-inducing question. We had been given an assignment, where we had to write a report on a prophet. We were given a list of "approved" prophets from which to pick. On the list was Sarah. I saw that and said something like "Oh, I didn't know Sarah was considered a prophet." My CCD teacher completely lost it and told me to shut up and accept what I was told... then she called in the director of the CCD program (a nun who had just started there the previous fall) and SHE lost it and started screaming at me in front of my entire class, for being "disrespectful" to my teacher. :rolleyes: (She'd have made a great DZO :p )

After that incident, my father pulled me out of CCD and taught me from a catechism for the rest of the year. The catechism's question and answer format kind of bothered me - it struck me as saying "Here are all the questions you'll ever need to ask about your faith, and look! Here are the answers!" This especially bothered me because the whole reason I was learning from a catechism was that I'd gotten thrown out of CCD for asking a question.

I was re-enrolled in the 8th grade confirmation class the following year. Interestingly enough, the CCD program had a new director by that time.......

swissmiss04

06-09-2003, 09:34 AM

My problem w/ any church that discourages questioning is that if they had something really good they should encourage questioning. Like if you were buying a great car, wouldn't the salesperson be open to any question? Likewise, if it were a lemon, wouldn't the salesperson be rather sketchy and elusive? I think what causes so many people to stray or just leave is the fact that there are so many answerable unanswered questions. So sad.

OleMissGlitter

06-09-2003, 09:38 AM

I was confirmed in the 8th grade and I had wonderful teachers for my confirmation. I also attended Catholic school for 15 years in New Orleans, (public schools aren't that great in New Orleans so you either attend Catholic or Private), and I feel I was taught everything there is to know about Catholicism. I am not the perfect Catholic however, I do feel that I could not abandon my faith and change because everyone in my family is Catholic and it is a part of me like my letters are a part of me.

MysticCat

06-09-2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by swissmiss04
I was raised in the Presbyterian church, which is known for being fairly tolerant and open. (In some people's opinion's, too much so.) I was confirmed in 4th grade, which I admit was a bit young, but my minister knew I was mentally and spiritually old enough to go through with it.Exactly the same for me. I felt no pressure to be confirmed, nor have I ever felt that there was no room for asking questions. I'm still a very active Presbyterian, however, despite ocassional disagreements with every jot and title of what that entails. ;)

Confirmation age differs among Presbyterian congregations -- anywhere from fifth grade or so to high school. In ours, confirmation is typically at Pentecost of one's seventh or eigth grade year, after two years (yes, two years) of weekly (during the school year) confirmation classes, as well as individual study with an elder matched to the confirmand. I know it sounds like a long process, but part of the reasoning is that confirmation is a serious commitment, and the confirmands are taken very deep into every aspect of faith and active congregational life so that they know what they are getting into and can make an informed decision. At the end of the process, each confirmand must write his or her own faith statement -- the things he or she believes. I am constantly amazed at the depth of understanding apparant in some of these.

FWIW.

MysticCat

06-09-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by KappaKittyCat
If I had told my pastor that I had reservations but was going through with confirmation because my parents wanted me to, my momma would have tanned my hide the minute we got home from church.Eeek!

ETA: I guess, upon reflection, my biggest problem with most types of Christianity is that they use fear to manipulate children. Not cool. If you said "many types" rather than "most types," I might agree with you. And in America, maybe it is "most." But looking at it on a world-wide scale, I think this may be a gross overgeneralization.

MysticCat

06-09-2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Relegion is very simple, We all beleive in a Supreme Being, We just call it by a different name! <diversion to soapbox>

I fear I will offend some people by saying this, but I think I need to say it anyway.

It ain't that simple. It is romantic, egalitarian and "pseudo-tolerant" to say it is that simple, but it just ain't. And in my opinion, it can be offensive to say it is.

One example: traditional Buddhism is nontheistic/atheistic. That is, traditional Buddhism says there is no God. As a specific citation, the Dalai Lama says there is no God. Thus, many if not most Buddhists do not believe in a Supreme Being. Universal forces, perhaps, but not a Supreme Being, by whatever name. For me, as a monotheist and a Christian to say "we all believe in the same thing/a Supreme Being, we just call it by a different name" not only ignores reality, but it shows, in my opinion, a disrespect for Buddhists who sincerely believe there is no Supreme Being. It's like me saying I know more about what they believe than they do.

And that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of the diametrically opposed views of a Supreme Being some religions present.

I'm all for tolerance and understanding between religions. But I think the first steps in tolerance and understanding is to recognize our differences and to avoid declaring "agreement" where there is no agreement.

Truly sorry if I have offended anybody.

</soapbox>

xo_kathy

06-09-2003, 11:13 AM

I was baptised by a Catholic priest in the clubhouse of the complex my parent's lived in. My father's side is all Catholic school attending Irish folks. My mom's side are protestant of one form or another. My parent's divorced when I was three so I began attending Presbyterian church with my mother. I was confirmed in 8th grade - although I only remember one year of classes, MysticCat? Anyway! At the time confirmation in my church also meant you could take communion because you understood what it truly represented. Now the Presbyterian church (and from what I learned last Sunday they have held this belief since the 70's) allows all children to take communion, which I find really great. I had no idea what was going on when I was baptised, obviously, but now I understand it and I appreciate it. Yet, I don't feel I need to go through it again just because of that. It's sort of like initiation! You are really confused when it first happens, but the more you see others go through it and live it the more you can appreciate it! OK, silly analogy but...

Also, to those who were posting about the bad funeral experiences, I think no harm was intended. I think it was a not very eloquent minister! When my uncle passed away my cousins asked me to bring the gifts to the alter. Being the non-Catholic I am I was confused as to when to do it. So I went to the priest and asked him when. He said, "Well, don't you know? Aren't you Catholic?" I said, "Well, my family is and I am a Christian, but protestant." So he mumbled off an answer and walked away in a huff. Then as Communion came, he said, "All those who are Catholic are welcome to take communion" and honest to Pete he looked right at me! So I took it anyway, but from my aunt, because last time I heard the story Jesus didn't say, "Catholics only, do this in rememberance of me." So, some people just don't know how to make you feel comfortable I guess! :rolleyes: It's really no wonder so many folks get turned off on organized religion....

ETA - I know that in Catholic church they believe non-Catholics can't take communion, it just upset me that the priest was so harsh - for lack of a better word.

MysticCat

06-09-2003, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by xo_kathy
I was confirmed in 8th grade - although I only remember one year of classes, MysticCat? Anyway! Like I said, varies from congregation. When I was confirmed, the class was about 4 months long.
At the time confirmation in my church also meant you could take communion because you understood what it truly represented. Now the Presbyterian church (and from what I learned last Sunday they have held this belief since the 70's) allows all children to take communion, which I find really great. My first communion was after confirmation, too. But you are right -- since the 70's, all baptized children have been allowed to commune. (For that matter, all baptized people, whether Presbyterian or not, may commune.)
I had no idea what was going on when I was baptised, obviously, but now I understand it and I appreciate it. Yet, I don't feel I need to go through it again just because of that. It's sort of like initiation! You are really confused when it first happens, but the more you see others go through it and live it the more you can appreciate it! OK, silly analogy but...
Not so silly, really. Just as initiation joins you to your GLO, baptism joins you to the Body of Christ. It can't be repeated, because you are already joined (and no Presbyterian minister would do a re-baptism for this reason), but you can learn to "live into" its meaning afterward, and every time you witness it happening to someone else, you can "remember your own" and "be thankful."

ZTAMiami

06-09-2003, 11:40 AM

I was baptised at 4 (a little late) and attended Catholic School from K-12th grade. First Communion was 2nd grade, Reconciliation was 4th and Confirmation was done on your own time whenever you were ready. You had to attend Sunday classes for that ( I was 13)
I never ever felt that debate was not allowed. It was openly encouraged. I never heard a nun or priest say that only Catholics were going to heaven. We were taught that anyone who lived good and moral lives were accepted into Heaven just the same. Pro-life and Pro-choice debates were common and no one was chastised for their beliefs. There was no fire and brimstone talk. No fear of God put into us. No threats of being hellbound. I feel like it was just such a relaxed atmosphere in which to be raised and I hope to give my daughter a Catholic education as well. She can make up her own mind whether or not to be confirmed.
My 5 yr old nephew has been attending a Baptist Pre-K and I am shocked at the things that come out of his mouth. He sings songs about the "blood of the sinners" and pledges allegiance to the Christian flag. Teachers show up at the kids homes unanounced to see what kind of TV and music the parents are into. Dancing is not allowed, etc. My sister plans on raising him Catholic (he is baptised) but she liked this school. She will be transferring him out next year.
Bottom line- when you are scared into believing in God, something is wrong!

xo_kathy

06-09-2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Not so silly, really. Just as initiation joins you to your GLO, baptism joins you to the Body of Christ. It can't be repeated, because you are already joined (and no Presbyterian minister would do a re-baptism for this reason), but you can learn to "live into" its meaning afterward, and every time you witness it happening to someone else, you can "remember your own" and "be thankful."

Right, I know in my own church I would not be re-baptised. I was referring more to people who believe they have to be willingly baptised to be "born again". Or that people say you weren't old enough to make that decision so it might not be as valid.

DWAlphaGam

06-09-2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by BetaRose
...I still believe many of the things I started out believeing, but I've come to realize that those are mostly common sense/living a good life/being a good person type of thing that aren't limited to any one religion...

I agree with this 100%. I never understood religious people who look down upon good, upstanding non-religious people and say that they're going to hell because they don't go to church even though they have not done anything wrong. Like Munchkin, I was raised without relgion, but my family has a Christian background, so we celebrate Christmas and Easter, but mostly for the gifts and family gatherings. I would consider myself agnostic because I don't believe that one has to go to church or be religious to be a good person and to have morals, but I do believe in a higher being or force of some sort. I think the spirituality is more important than the act of going to church and participating in the ceremonies--religion is something that you should internalize, not something that you should have to prove to other people.

Eirene_DGP

06-09-2003, 12:05 PM

I was not raised in very religious home besides when my mother wanted to shove religion down me and my brother's throat when it was convenient. It seemed to me that having a "church home" in the south was very important and I always believed in God even though Christianity was not practiced in our home. My mother's biological family is Catholic and because my grandmother decided to give my mother up for adoption, my mother decided that she wanted nothing more to do with the faith. Fortunately, I kept in touch with the family and was attracted to the church since middle school. After I studied other faiths to make sure Catholicism was really the route I wanted to take. I was confirmed at 18 my freshman year in college.

AZpinkkittie

06-09-2003, 12:17 PM

I definitely agree with you DWAlphaGam. I was baptized Catholic as a baby, but never really followed the faith. My parents weren't big church goers and I was really only baptized to make my maternal grandmother happy (big hispanic Roman Catholic woman). My sister on the other hand became very involved with church at the end of middle school and went through confirmation and everything. I certainly believe in God and and the basic teaching of morality but a lot of the "rules" and ceremony involved with many religions, I think, can ruin that for some people. I am a big believer in the idea that you can have a relationship with God and be a good person without claiming any faith in particular or going to church every week.

Kevin

06-09-2003, 12:49 PM

I was raised in the Catholic Church, the only one of 3 brothers that still practices (it wasn't forced on us at all). I went to a Catholic HS and was actually given the opportunity there to debate a lot of church philosophy. There, I was introduced to Aquinas.

If you're Catholic you should check out Summae Theologica (you might want to get a condensed version or a book about it since it's 26 volumes). St. Thomas Aquinas actually reconciles most of the Catholic Doctrine at that time with Aristotalian Logic. Much of his reasoning is very sound -- there's still something of a leap of faith, but I think that Aquinas makes it more tolerable.

I don't agree with 100% of what my church believes (who does?) nor would I consider myself to be a perfect Catholic.

I haven't been going to Church lately but might actually start going if I can find a job that doesn't require me to work Sundays. If I ever have kids they will definitely be raised in the church. If I get married, I'd like to have that done in the church as well.

valkyrie

06-09-2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by MysticCat81
<diversion to soapbox>

I fear I will offend some people by saying this, but I think I need to say it anyway.

It ain't that simple. It is romantic, egalitarian and "pseudo-tolerant" to say it is that simple, but it just ain't. And in my opinion, it can be offensive to say it is.

One example: traditional Buddhism is nontheistic/atheistic. That is, traditional Buddhism says there is no God. As a specific citation, the Dalai Lama says there is no God. Thus, many if not most Buddhists do not believe in a Supreme Being. Universal forces, perhaps, but not a Supreme Being, by whatever name. For me, as a monotheist and a Christian to say "we all believe in the same thing/a Supreme Being, we just call it by a different name" not only ignores reality, but it shows, in my opinion, a disrespect for Buddhists who sincerely believe there is no Supreme Being. It's like me saying I know more about what they believe than they do.

And that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of the diametrically opposed views of a Supreme Being some religions present.

I'm all for tolerance and understanding between religions. But I think the first steps in tolerance and understanding is to recognize our differences and to avoid declaring "agreement" where there is no agreement.

Truly sorry if I have offended anybody.

</soapbox>

Thank you! I'm Buddhist, and to me, Buddhism does not include a belief in God or any other supreme being. I was going to say something like what you said, although not nearly as well as you've said it.

justamom

06-09-2003, 02:28 PM

I believe our soul is energy. I believe energy never dies it changes form. When we die, depending on the energy we posses (be it negative or positive), THAT will determine how strong the force that draws us to the purest energy (God) and how close to him we will be. Now I don't know where this thinking would fall, but
I do consider myself very spiritual.

Question on Buddhism. Do you believe in the different levels of
atonement (Is it 7???) and if not, what faith is that?

Second-Once we die, if you do NOT believe in a Supreme Power
and you suddenly discover their is ONE GOD, do you think you are in serious trouble and banned to hell, or will you be forgiven?
My take refers back to the positive and negative energy you have acquired during your life.

St. Thomas Acquiness (sp?) said it is better to question, seek answers and return a believer than to never question at all.
The faith of a seeker has been tested and so it goes the faith is stronger.

Eclipse

06-09-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by swissmiss04
My problem w/ any church that discourages questioning is that if they had something really good they should encourage questioning. Like if you were buying a great car, wouldn't the salesperson be open to any question? Likewise, if it were a lemon, wouldn't the salesperson be rather sketchy and elusive? I think what causes so many people to stray or just leave is the fact that there are so many answerable unanswered questions. So sad.

I agree! I think somepeople get weird when you ask questions about their faith because they don't know the answers themselves and it will display their ignorance/insecurities. Also, some authority figures have a real issue with admitting they are wrong. I certainly don't hvae all of the answers about my faith, but I don't have a problem with someone asking! If I don't know I'll try to find out.

Eirene_DGP

06-09-2003, 06:18 PM

Wow Justamom, that was pretty deep. I always wondered how believers of ____ (insert your faith here) would react if they found out ______ was the real religion.

*edited b/c i left out justamoms name. ;)

MTSUGURL

06-11-2003, 10:00 AM

I am a Christian - I became one at 5 years old. I have always believed in God, that Jesus is God's son, He died and rose to save us from sin, etc. I have not always been as strong in my faith and practiced it to the extent that I should, but I believe that God is gracious and good and forgiving. Something that people tend to forget about churches when they decide to go off on a tirade: Churches are full of PEOPLE. People don't become perfect and less human when they practice a religion or faith, yet sometimes a person can be so quick to blast them for offenses that the person theirself is practicing. I don't agree with everything my church teaches, and I believe that it is the responsibility for every person to give a thorough and intelligent answer when asked why they believe what they believe.
My brother grew up southern baptist, and now thinks he's Catholic. He goes to Mass once a year, and married a Catholic girl (who was not practicing) and my nephew was christened in a Catholic church. Evidently, all this makes him Catholic. :rolleyes:

astroAPhi

06-11-2003, 10:21 AM

When I was 7, I was baptized in the Lutheran church where my parents were married, mostly because my grandmother threw a fit when she found out I wasn't. It's not to say that I didn't believe in God, or that my whole family didn't go to church... I guess it just slipped my parents mind. It was a very happy day for me and although I wasn't the biggest expert on religion at age 7, it held some very good memories and I was proud to be baptized.

I continued to believe and grow spiritually throughout adolesence. We switched to a popular non-denominational church, Willow Creek Community Church (I'm mentioning this because, believe it or not, a lot of people have heard of it). They do "baby dedications" because they want it to be the person's choice and based on a lot of thought. Basically the parents promise to raise their child to know Christ so that they can make the decision when they're older.

When I was 18, I chose to be rebaptized though. I made a big step when I was 15, even though I had thought all along that Jesus was my savior, it was then that I publicly proclaimed it and truly felt like I had dedicated myself.

I'd say that being baptized when you are old enough to make the decision yourself is definitely important. Being educated as a child is also important too, but if the decision isn't your own, or something you're not ready for, then I don't think you truly believe, and (IMHO of course) God doesn't want to force you into faith because he wants you to truly love him, not just be forced to.

And I'm sorry if this was super preachy "the story of astroAPhi's life", but I've had a really good experience and I like to share it in hopes that people will understand my point of view better. :)

FeeFee

06-11-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Eclipse
I am one of those people who talked about being confirmed because of expectations, not because of any internal change. As a Christian I think it is important for parents to realize that they cannot "make" their children be Christians. Christianity is about an inward change, not an outward declaration. You can make all of the outward declarations in the world, but if there had not been a true, inward change, then it really means nothing in the eyes of God.

I think parents should explain what giving your life to Christ means (if they are Christians) and let the child know it is their decision and what the consequences are. I'm not sure where this is, but I think the Bible says something about children being covered by their parents until they are at the "age of cencent." and at that point they are kinda on their own with salvation.

To answer your question, I attend a Baptist church and my pastor makes certain when a little kid comes down to "give his/her life to Christ" that they are doing it because they want to, not because their parents told them too. IF the kids says I came down because mama told me too he has a little talk with the parent saying I know you want your child to be saved, but this is not the way, etc. It's very loving and gentle. He then tells the child when THEY are ready to come back and if they have any questions about God, etc. to ask. I think that is the best way.

Bottom line, I think children should be taught about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit from the moment they come out of the womb, but they ultimately need to make the decision.

I completely agree. I attend a Pentacostal church and my pastor does the same thing when a young person goes to the alter to "give their life to Christ", he make sure that it's the young person's decision and not because Mommy, Daddy or Grandma told them to. Dedicating one's life to Christ should be a willing, voluntary action.

swissmiss04

06-11-2003, 11:34 AM

I think it's great when people wait til they're "mature" to dedicate themselves to their religion (if their faith requires such a thing). I think a little bit of testing beforehand is a good idea because especially in churches which emphasize emotions over reason, people get caught up in stuff, and then backslide pretty quickly. That not only hurts the person but reflects badly on his/her faith. I find it fascinating that in Judaism (traditionally) a person who approaches a synagogue to convert is refused up to 3 times, to test their conviction. Some people say "Oh how harsh and unwelcoming!" But I bet it keeps out the "religious nuts". At my mosque some of the ladies will work to help anyone convert. They've "converted" about 4 people who have certifiable mental problems. According to Islam, those who are insane or mentally incapable are not accountable to God for their actions. It's an embarrassment for me and my faith, and these people don't even realize they've converted. One lady shows up at the mosque in shorts and a tank top and a bandana tied around her head. Another calls people and asks what religion she is. Another talks about "the blood of christ" at the mosque. :eek:

aephi alum

06-11-2003, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by swissmiss04
I find it fascinating that in Judaism (traditionally) a person who approaches a synagogue to convert is refused up to 3 times, to test their conviction. Some people say "Oh how harsh and unwelcoming!" But I bet it keeps out the "religious nuts".

That's true. I was not formally "refused", but the first rabbi I approached really, really, REALLY didn't want to work with potential Jews-by-choice (an odd attitude for a campus chaplain!) so he set ridiculous requirements - he told me I'd have to learn Yiddish :rolleyes: among other things. I found another rabbi. :p

Judaism also does not proselytize. Jews don't go out and seek converts; you have to go to them.

GeekyPenguin

06-11-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by aephi alum
That's true. I was not formally "refused", but the first rabbi I approached really, really, REALLY didn't want to work with potential Jews-by-choice (an odd attitude for a campus chaplain!) so he set ridiculous requirements - he told me I'd have to learn Yiddish :rolleyes: among other things. I found another rabbi. :p

Judaism also does not proselytize. Jews don't go out and seek converts; you have to go to them.

And that is why I have an utmost respect for Judaism. I cannot stand proselytizing. If somebody wants to be your religion, seek them out. Don't force them to convert - a lot of my friends "converted" because they got talked into it - they have no idea of the difference between being Catholic and, oh, say Mormon.

Apparently a few years ago Campus Crusade for Christ showed up on Marquette's campus and tried to convert. They weren't very successful, and the Jesuits had a field day with them.

ZTAMiami

06-11-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by aephi alum
Judaism also does not proselytize. Jews don't go out and seek converts; you have to go to them.

Neither does Catholicism!

Every once in a while we get a pamphlet on our apartment door with a drawing of people burning in hell and a phone # to contact a man who can help us be 'saved'.........whatever, like that's really gonna convince me :rolleyes:

GeekyPenguin

06-11-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by ZTAMiami
Neither does Catholicism!

Every once in a while we get a pamphlet on our apartment door with a drawing of people burning in hell and a phone # to contact a man who can help us be 'saved'.........whatever, like that's really gonna convince me :rolleyes:

Oh, I won't hang that up anymore. ;)

I'm glad that Catholicism doesn't. I don't believe Lutherans do, but one Lutheran I know is certainly the exception. The other night at a bonfire he was going on a tirade about how all non-Lutherans were rotting in Hell, in a group of a bunch of Catholics (and one other Lutheran) who had a good friend from high school, a step-father, a boyfriend, and several grandparents die in the last two years - none of whom were Lutheran. I was going to yell at him, but then realized he would never change his mind, so I just got up and left.

astroAPhi

06-11-2003, 02:29 PM

Ugh, that's what pisses me off about denominations of Christianity. Some people seem to forget that they're worshipping God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit, not the stupid little technicalities that keep us apart.

(I realize that I might anger some people by calling them stupid little technicalities, but it's more stupid that people let them become such a big issue.)

xo_kathy

06-11-2003, 03:06 PM

Actually....all Christian faiths are supposed to proselytize, regardless of the denomination. I am not a Bible quoter, but I do recall being taught that the Bible teaches us that all Christians are supposed to spread the word and their belief in Jesus as the Savior. Someone who knows their Bible verses well, please feel free to help me out with this one! However, how you interpret that varies on denominational beliefs and personal beliefs. I personally do not put out pamphlets and tell people they will burn in hell for this or that, but I will stand up for my beliefs when challenged and will gladly share them with anyone who has questions. Some Christian groups do believe in "preaching" all the time, though. But, as I said, I do think that it is a Christian teaching that you should spread the word (although I guess maybe some don't consider that actually trying to get converts...)

Did any of that make sense?!?! I hope so! :)

Optimist Prime

06-11-2003, 04:47 PM

I was baptised methodist. Then didn't go to church for a while then went back and it was totally different and, in my opioion, wrong. Altar boys in shorts, etc. So much for that. I was never confirmed into anything.

I am a Buddhist now, but have my own ideas about it.

honeychile

06-11-2003, 05:26 PM

What a fascinating discussion!

First, xo_kathy, I think you mean the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) "Therefore go and make disciples of many nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..."

My road started with my parents: my dad's family was Lutheran or Christian Scientist, my mama's family was Baptist. They tried all of the options, and discovered that they were both happiest with the Baptist church. They were immersed one Sunday and married the next - I find that SO romantic!

For those who are so darn interested in my family, my parents had dated for three years prior to their mutual immersion. The commitment of immersion requires pastoral counseling.

I was dedicated a Baptist, but we moved far away from a Baptist church, so we started attending a Presbyterian church. The neighborhood was a little Belfast - none of the Catholic kids were permitted to even play with we non-Catholics who were going to hell, courtesy of a rabid Sister Dom Bosco! I had to be water-sprinkled before 6th grade confirmation. One of the pastors there started a non-denominational church, which we attended until it self-destructed (long story). There was not one bit of theology at that church with which I disagreed, so its demise was really a blow to me.

I want to interrupt myself to say that while I was growing up, I was encouraged to attend as many types of services as I wanted. The last I counted, I had been to 23 different sects or religions. This was a great blessing, as how do you really know if you want to be part of ANY given church or religion without experiencing it on a personal level? I fully believe in infant dedication and then baptism/confirmation/conversion only upon making a commitment to whichever church or religion as an adult.

My brother is a part-time missionary (nondenominational), and both of my parents did part-time evangelism. I have been commissioned at a nondenominational church as a facilitator & counselor, but I am a member of a Baptist church. I fully believe in this church's theology, and "I was glad when they said unto me, let us go to the House of the Lord!" I taught Sunday School for 12 years, and usually got the middle school kids - the ones who are starting to question, and need to see different religions. I've found a rabbi who encourages an "exchange program" where his teacher will talk with my kids, and I will talk with theirs. After all, without Judeaism, Christianity has no foundation!

When I started attending my current church, I made an appointment to talk to the pastor about membership. He has since teased me that usually, the pastor interviews the prospective member, but I interviewed him! He was thrilled that I knew what my beliefs are, and would only consider joining a church that would satisfy my theology.

To know me is to know that I am a believing Christian, and while I stumble at times, I do my best to uphold my beliefs. I am at peace. Somehow, I must manage to come off as non-judgemental, because friends who have come out of the closet or had an abortion feel comfortable with discussing this with me - even though they know how I feel. While it hurts to hear about an abortion, it's more important that the love of God is shown. I hope I don't sound too sanctimonious about all this!

As for the funeral bit, I would agree with whomever said that it was the pastor's delivery that was wrong, not the message. Weddings & funerals which are conducted in a church should not be expected to be "watered down" for the benefit of others, and I would question a church that did. If you're uncomfortable with that, please don't plan on attending my funeral! :)

(edited for puncuation & purient interests)

xo_kathy

06-11-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by honeychile
First, xo_kathy, I think you mean the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) "Therefore go and make disciples of many nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...")

Thank you, honeychile! That's it!

I enjoyed the rest of your post as well.

And I would like to say I am proud of us that we are keeping it to a "this is what I believe" type of a discussion and not a "See, that's where you ___(insert religion here)___ are so wrong!!!" discussion! :D

honeychile

06-11-2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by xo_kathy
Thank you, honeychile! That's it!

I enjoyed the rest of your post as well.

Thank you! :)

And I would like to say I am proud of us that we are keeping it to a "this is what I believe" type of a discussion and not a "See, that's where you ___(insert religion here)___ are so wrong!!!" discussion! :D

I totally agree!

We're all adults (I would hope), and know that there's a time & place for everything. We shouldn't feel threatened by someone talking about their spiritual journey, but be glad that they took the trip!

Greekgrrl

06-11-2003, 06:18 PM

This is a topic close to my heart so forgive me if I ramble.

I come from a large family of Catholics and was born into the Catholic church myself. My family is French Catholic, Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, and my mom's many cousins and relatives by marriage are mostly Italian Catholic. St. Louis is a really Catholic city so that's not at all unusual.

My mom was married briefly after dropping out of college and because she was married in the Catholic church she would have had to get an annulment to marry again -- but she believes in taking responsibility for your actions and acknowledging your mistakes, so saying that the awful marriage (that lasted less than a year) didn't even happen went against her personal beliefs. Instead she got a divorce. When she met my dad (also Catholic, obviously) they couldn't get married in the Catholic Church so they were married in a Lutheran church. I was still baptized and raised Catholic because both my parents believed in the fundamental tenets (mostly) and because it was such a tradition.

When it came to be time for my first Reconciliation (aka confession) and Communion, my entire class at the parish school I went to all did it together, in the spring of second grade. We spent most of the semester learning about what it meant and why we did it and all that. My parents and my extended family supported me and though I don't think I was necessarily my choice, it wasn't something unusual -- we went to Mass frequently and I went to Catholic school, after all. Well the parish priest at that time told my parents that they weren't welcome at the service when I received my Communion because they were living in sin and both my brother and I were therefore bastards. :mad:

So very shortly after that we left the Catholic church. (Sidenote: my godmother, who was also my aunt, looked into getting legal custody because my parents were leading me down the path of evil by taking me out of the Church. She didn't get it.) My parents looked around and eventually found the Episcopal (Anglican) church and realized that the fundamental similarities of belief were there but that the church as a whole was a lot more open-minded in its beliefs.

Making the transition from Catholicism to Anglicanism isn't difficult, so it sort of meshed well with the beliefs I'd already been forming. My church has confirmation at the end of 8th grade, and I went through believing as much as a 12 year old can believe, which I think is probably enough.

I still attend church, albeit less frequently because of some personal problems with the parish I grew up in. I went to Catholic grade school and high school, and I believe that, in the absence of a protestant denominational school compatible with my beliefs, Catholic school will also be my choice for my children. I have a fondness for the Catholic church but my beliefs are more in line with the Episcopal church ( as someone said, it really is Catholic light in many ways).

I believe that I can spread the Good News of the Gospels without saying 'you're wrong, be a Christian.' I have had more success in forming relationships with those of other faiths and making them more open to the concepts of Christianity by being a good Christian (well, sometimes, I'm hardly perfect) than by being a good converter. Additionally, questioning your faith and the faith of your religious leaders can often be a good way to a deeper understanding of the faith of both of you.

I also believe that structure (Catholic/religious schools, formal language in worship, rules on when you can take certain sacraments) are helpful. I have two young adopted sisters and an adopted brother. My sister, after 3 months in the U.S., who was raised pseudo-Jewish, spoke very little English, and had pretty much no idea what was going on, was led by her Sunday school teachers into taking Communion "because all the other kids in her grade are doing it." That really upset me -- I think that until you have some sort of idea what's going on (even if you can't get all of the deeper sacramental meaning of it) you have no business taking a sacrament.

But that's just me. I could be wrong. :)

~~Greekgrrl

Eclipse

06-11-2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by honeychile

As for the funeral bit, I would agree with whomever said that it was the pastor's delivery that was wrong, not the message. Weddings & funerals which are conducted in a church should not be expected to be "watered down" for the benefit of others, and I would question a church that did. If you're uncomfortable with that, please don't plan on attending my funeral! :)

Your entire post was great but I really wanted to put an "AMEN" on this part!

RACooper

06-11-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by xo_kathy
Actually....all Christian faiths are supposed to proselytize, regardless of the denomination. I am not a Bible quoter, but I do recall being taught that the Bible teaches us that all Christians are supposed to spread the word and their belief in Jesus as the Savior. Someone who knows their Bible verses well, please feel free to help me out with this one! However, how you interpret that varies on denominational beliefs and personal beliefs. I personally do not put out pamphlets and tell people they will burn in hell for this or that, but I will stand up for my beliefs when challenged and will gladly share them with anyone who has questions. Some Christian groups do believe in "preaching" all the time, though. But, as I said, I do think that it is a Christian teaching that you should spread the word (although I guess maybe some don't consider that actually trying to get converts...)

Did any of that make sense?!?! I hope so! :)

I think the difference is forcing your religion on others.... look at it this way:
Do you know the basic tenets of Judaism? or Islam?
Then you have heard their "word" but no-one forced you to accept their faith as the true faith.
The problem is the fundamentalists in every religion that try to force their views and beliefs on others the force (verbal, written, physical, or mental). It is these people that give the other followers of a faith a bad name: for example Islam.

xo_kathy

06-11-2003, 06:44 PM

Absolutely, Rob. People are usually most upset with the screaming, yelling guy we've all had on our campus telling us we are going to hell for being Greek! :rolleyes:

My post was mostly pointed at ZTAMiami and Geeky Penguin who claimed that Catholics do not proselytize. I was pointing out that a teaching of basic Christianty - regardless of denomination - is to do just that. So while the Catholics may not be the type who "shove it down your throat" so to speak, they are indeed supposed to profess their faith to others. (P.S. Ladies - no offense meant, just trying to be accurate :) )

AXO Alum

06-11-2003, 07:08 PM

Okay - so this will be long, but please read because I am looking for some answers to some questions - thanks!

First of all, I was raised Protestant (Wesleyan denomination) -- I was baptized as a baby as was "normal" for all babies in the faith. My DH (dear hubby) on the other hand was raised Catholic - and his parents define the word DEVOUT (Websters definition - Devout - see picture of Mr. AXO Alum's parents).

Well, DH was never so "pure" regardless of what mamma thought - he would go to Mass with them when he was home, but that was about it. When it came time for us to get serious about marriage (and we did live together before which didn't score any points for me with mamma) DH and I had the talk about religion. I didn't care what we believed, as long as it involved the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and we could raise our children in our faith (although allowing them to choose for themselves when they become able to do so) -- but I did have MAJOR issues with the Catholic faith (same for DH) - so we started "shopping" for churches. Now that sounds so cold, but we did - we wanted to know what we were getting into, and was it something that we could raise our kids up believing.

Well we tried the Southern Baptist route - sheesh! Apologies to any SB's out there who DON'T belong to a cult, but this one extremely large church we attended (10,000 plus members) was just ridiculous. The pastor had no qualms in saying "women you will bow down to your man and serve him" -- which I (not being a feminist by any stretch) couldn't stomach -- marriage (to us) is a PARTNERSHIP not a form of slavery. And the kicker that got us to leave this place was (they have these huge screens on either side so people can see - think about PTL and the Jim Baker days) that one day during the service he showed a "film" that showed the most disgusting things -- it was a bunch of clips from gay rallies that were, not to offend anyone, shocking -- but what I mean by that is that he deliberately PICKED the worst clips out there -- there were no quiet, hand-holding couples -- there were people naked and performing lewd acts, people chained to a fence and making mockeries of sexual acts, etc. It was HORRIBLE -- I thought if I had kids in here, I would expect an apology from this man. But then he goes on to say "THESE ARE THE LOWEST OF THE LOW -- AND THE ONLY PEOPLE LOWER THAN THESE PEOPLE ARE THOSE HAVING SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE" -- well let me tell you - we left. Not because our toes were stepped on, but because I don't believe that church is a place to CONDEMN. You should lift up people and show them that God loves them and can forgive them and lead them.

Anyway -- so we finally found the United Methodist Church who sent us the neatest info with their motto "Open Heart, Open Minds, Open Doors" which is SO us! We love our church and feel that, like the Hard Rock Cafe slogan, its "love all serve all" which is what we feel we should do as Christians. Plus, they consider one baptism as "enough" -- which was great, since we both felt it was inappropriate to be re-baptised, and disrespectful to our parents.

Okay - so back to the Catholic thing -- mamma is ready to throw herself off a cliff with the shame that her precious (only) child has been living in sin, and is now going to join a Protestant church. She still hasn't recovered! Now granted, we do go to Mass with them when we visit. We have no problems going and being respectful. She does not usually go to church with us though.

We have been pretty okay with it until Eli came along, and dad-in-law and I had a heated discussion. He wanted to know if Eli would be baptised or just "dedicated" -- I said "baptised" -- he said "good because if he isn't, and he dies before he is, he won't go to heaven" -- well that just burned my grits and toast -- I was LIVID about that statement. So I point blank said to him "Any religion that believes an innocent child will not go to heaven, is a religion that I don't want any part of" -- and he says "well, its not that he won't go to heaven, but he won't be in the sight of God -- its like [yes he said this] going to a ball game and instead of having floor seats, you would have the really high, nosebleed seats where you can't see very well" -- I was like WTH?! Literally!

So questions here...and not meant to sound snotty, but I like others have always had a very "closed-door" impression of the Catholic church when it comes to my questions --

1) Is that true? Do Catholics believe that a child will not "be in the sight of God" if they aren't baptised?

2) Do Catholics still believe that the Pope, even as a man, is infallible?

3) Why can't a non-Catholic take communion? It is my belief/opinion that Jesus welcomes anyone to His table -- why do Catholics think that only other Catholics can receive?

4) Explain confession -- I agreed with whomever said "why not cut out the middle man" although they went on to say the priest explained it, I wanna know what the explanation is.

5) Why is Mary worshipped? DH says she isn't "worshipped" but I think differently based on the sayings that they use, and have seen people give "gifts" to the Virgin Mary statues in church. I thought this would fall under the "no other gods before me" category.

I have a ton more - I really do want to get a better understanding of this faith so that if a problem arises between my MIL again (which I am sure it will) that I will have an informed opinion.

ChitownXO, I may need to PM you since you have already given me some great info on here! Thanks!

chitownxo

06-11-2003, 08:49 PM

Although I am by no means a perfect Catholic, I'll try to answer a few questions....

First, technically Catholics don't worship Mary in a god-like sense. We venerate her as the mother of Jesus. She is the holiest of all women, and we treat her as such.

Catholics don't allow Protestants to take Communion because it implies a unity that technically isn't there. I was always told that the Protestants in the congregation are to pray that one day the schism will be healed.

I've always been taught that the Pope isn't infallible, except in matters of theology. I don't know that I 100% believe this, but there ya go.

In Confession, as explained to me a couple of days before my confirmation, the priest acts as an intercessor for you. You go to Confession to confess sins, and then you and the priest pray together. You do a penace (usually a prayer, although I once had to be nicer to Mr. Chitownxo's mom - which is really hard!) I will say that the times I force myself to go, I do feel better about things. It's nice to have someone to talk about things that you're not really proud of...so much cheaper than a therapist!

It is techinically part of our mission to spread the word, so to speak. I have no desire to convert anyone...I figure if anyone else wants to become a Catholic, they'll ask me, and I can point them in the right direction.

As for the non-baptised child, according to my father who is busily quoting the Baltimore Cathecism to me as we speak, there was never an official Catholic dogma that taught that the child would go to hell. It's not spelled out...according to my father the Super-Catholic, a non-baptised child does not go to hell, and it was never a teaching that they would. Hell, when translated, means absence from God, so I think that's a missunderstanding.

If anyone else has any questions, I'll answer them as best as I can. If you feel more comfortable PM-ing me, that's cool too.

swissmiss04

06-11-2003, 09:06 PM

My next door neighbors were devout catholics and I think the way they explained it (it's been a while) is that unbaptized babies are sort of in limbo or purgatory or something. Not in hell or heaven. Still that's sad. What is the Catholic belief on people who are insane or mentally handicapped? Will they go to heaven or hell and why? Just curious.

chitownxo

06-11-2003, 09:17 PM

Purgatory is no longer an official teaching of the Catholic church. I have heard that it never was, but I'm not sure which is the correct version. From what I do know, the concept of purgatory came about as an answer to the question, "What if I'm neither good, nor bad where do I go?" Hey, you're going to purgatory...a kind of netherworldish waiting room where you wait for your sins to be forgiven. The custom of selling indulgences, buying your or a loved one's way out of purgatory, started from this belief. Indulgences were a way for the corrupt clergy in the Middle Ages, (and I don't think it will offend anyone to say that a lot of the clergy were corrupt...drawn to the church for monetary rather than theological reasons).

That said, I can tell you what I've been told, and what I personally believe: if we really believe in a loving God who loves his children, do we really think that he would allow an innocent not to come home to him?

AXO Alum

06-11-2003, 09:33 PM

chitownxo - thank you SO much -- I really appreciate your "answers" as best as you were taught. I think that it shows the difference in teachings (albeit subtle sometimes) -- amongst ALL types of faith.

I have to admit that the Mary thing bothers me -- to see people putting flowers at the feet of her statue during Mass was just weird to me. And praying to her to intercede on our behalf (isn't that the way it goes?) is weird to me too. I don't mean "weird" as in "freaks!" -- I mean "weird" as in "not understood" -- believe me, I would like to learn more, and its not my intent to insult people. I just feel like (to me) its like people put her right up there with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit -- and that just isn't what I was taught growing up, so therefore, it is a foreign idea to me.

As for Confession - that was a good answer - I haven't thought about it that way before. And yes, the old "you have to pay the church for your sins" stereotype WAS taught to me by my parents (who really don't know much about the faith either) -- so its good to know that I can now tell my mom that that isn't true.

Thanks to your dad for his input too :) And I loved your quote:

if we really believe in a loving God who loves his children, do we really think that he would allow an innocent not to come home to him?

I will have to PM you sometime and find out about your having to be nice to Mr. chitownxo's mom -- sounds VERY familiar although opposite! If she were to confess her dislike of me in Confession, she'd be there ALL week at least - LOL! She has a very dear family friend who is a priest, and I think that she "uses" him as her permanent confidante for confession -- although he lives several states away, I have no doubt that more than one phone call to him has been in regards to me -- once he even bought Mr. AXO Alum a "Saint" figurine bearing the saint he is named after. He said to her (he didn't know I was standing behind him) "give this to him - let him know that we will find a way to get him" meaning "get him back" I assumed - by that time he caught on that I was standing there...oops!

chitownxo

06-11-2003, 09:58 PM

AXO Alum - I'm glad I was able to answer some of your questions. Theology always was my favorite subject. In fact, I'm looking into going to graduate school and pursuing a masters in theology. I don't want to preach (I so do not have the talent for that!), but I'd like to teach comparative religions at the college level.

I understand what you mean about the Mary thing. When my brother got married, he and his wife had a traditional Catholic ceremony. During the ceremony, there's a part where Kathy (my sister-in-law) went up to Mary's alter, lit a candle, said a prayer, and then re-joined my brother. It was hard to explain to the non-Catholics in the congregation about that one. It did look like she was taking a break from all the standing she had to do.

aephi alum

06-11-2003, 10:51 PM

Quite right that Mary isn't worshipped; rather, as I understand it, she is honored as a mother, and specifically as Jesus' mother.

As I recall from my Catholic education, they consider that there is a special place in heaven for the unbaptized who never had a chance to learn about Christianity. This would include children who died before being baptized, people who lived in remote locations where Christianity had not been introduced, etc.

The "official" Jewish teaching is that we are the chosen people... but many Jews (myself included) believe that the Jewish people are not so much the chosen people, as a chosen people. Different people are chosen to serve and worship God, or gods, or a supreme being, or whatever, in different ways.

As for confession... even growing up Catholic, I never understood the whole "confess to a priest" thing. I went to confession weekly for several years after my first confession, mainly because my dad did. My mother almost never went to confession; she was raised Anglican, and in the Anglican Church you pray directly to God for forgiveness. That stuck with me. In Judaism, you also pray directly to God, not just on Yom Kippur but year-round... and that's what I do.

GeekyPenguin

06-11-2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by xo_kathy
Absolutely, Rob. People are usually most upset with the screaming, yelling guy we've all had on our campus telling us we are going to hell for being Greek! :rolleyes:

My post was mostly pointed at ZTAMiami and Geeky Penguin who claimed that Catholics do not proselytize. I was pointing out that a teaching of basic Christianty - regardless of denomination - is to do just that. So while the Catholics may not be the type who "shove it down your throat" so to speak, they are indeed supposed to profess their faith to others. (P.S. Ladies - no offense meant, just trying to be accurate :) )

I agree that you are correct - my personal definition of proselytizing is people ramming it down my throat. I will be more than happy to tell people I am Catholic, and to tell them about my faith if they are curious, but unlike the misbehaved no-home-training Lutheran boy the other night, I would never say "I think you are going to burn in Hell because you aren't Catholic." For the most part, I try to profess my faith through examples, and I never want to force my religion on someone. GPBoy and I had discussed where to get married (Catholic & Methodist) and I think we would have ended up being married in a Catholic church that allows marriage to non-Catholics (some do) or by a justice of the peace.

When I die, I do not want a preachy funeral, and anyone who wants one shouldn't attend. Just because somebody doesn't have the same beliefs as me does not mean my funeral should make them uncomfortable. I want a reading from the lectionary (common between many Christian denominations) and a nice homily. The only thing that will make people of other denominations uncomfortable will be their inability to receive communion in my Church.

honeychile

06-11-2003, 11:00 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm going to do a search on this once I post!), but didn't either Newsweek or Time do an article last fall on a major push in the Catholic church for Mary to be considered a "co-redemptress"?

Granted, I have a real problem with all statues (Second Commandment about graven images), but I do feel that Mary was a wonderful, pure Jewish maiden selected by God to be the mother of Jesus - but not a redeemer herself.

MSKKG

06-11-2003, 11:02 PM

I'm an Orthodox Christian. In regard to the Sacrament of Confession, here is a paraphrase of what the Church says: God alone forgives sin. Jesus (God the Son) forgave sins and gave His apostles the power to remit or retain sins (cf. John 20:23). In the early Church, the sinner had to confess before the entire congregation! As the Church grew, the practice of privately confessing to the priest developed--he kind of represented the congregation.

Concerning Mary and intercessory prayers, here is a direct quote from The Faith by Clark Carlton (sorry for the length):

"While our Lord was hanging from the Cross, pouring out His life for the salvation of the world, He looked down upon His most pure Mother and the Apostle John and said to the holy Virgin,
"Woman, behold thy son." To John He said, "Behold thy mother" (John 19:26-27). From this time forth, the Virgin maiden who had given birth to God in the flesh was to be the mother of His Disciples. Just as Eve was the "Mother of all the living," so the Virgin is the "Mother of all Christians," the personification of Holy Mother Church. To those who are united to her Son through Holy Baptism, she extends her motherly embrace.

"As our Mother, the All-holy Theotokos intercedes for us before the Throne of Her Son. As our fervent Intercessor and constant Advocate before the Creator, the Virgin never tires and never fails to remember her spiritual children in her prayers. When we are at our lowest ebb and feel as though we have been forsaken by all the world, we may take courage in the fact that our Lady is ever ready to come to us and intercede for us, winning greater strength for all who call upon her Son in faith.

"Since the time of the Protestant Reformation, however, much of Western Christendom has either ignored or rejected outright the intercession of the Mother of God and the Saints for those on earth. In doing so, Protestants have forfeited one of the greatest privileges of being Christians. The Apostle James enjoins us to pray for one another, and in the same verse, explains why: the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:16). It is ironic that those who oppose the idea of seeking the intercession of the Saints in heaven have no objections to asking ordinary, sinful Christians to pray for them. But let us consider whose prayers, according to St. James, are more effectual: those Christians still alive on earth struggling with their own sins and problems, or those who have gone on to be with God and are recognized by the Church for their holiness of life?

"The Saints are those who have passed through this life in victorious faith and now behold the face of Christ. United with Him in love, they exist in a state of perfect accord with His holy will. Thus, we may be assured that when they pray for us who are on earth, their supplications are in complete harmony with the purposes of God. No longer capable of being deceived by the wiles of the devil, they form a mighty army, joining their will to the will of God and standing firm with us as we fight the good fight of faith. If God hears the prayers of ordinary Christians embroiled in the trials of life (and He certainly does), then how much more does He heed the intercessions of those who have pleased Him most, whom He has called to be with Himself in heaven.

"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32). In Christ, death is no longer the impenetrable barrier which separates us from those who have gone on before us. Indeed, the writer of Hebrews affirms that the Saints in heaven are aware of what is going on in our lives:

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1).

"The Saints not only cheer us on as we run the race of life, they actively participate in our race as they intercede for us, winning greater strength for all who battle evil. Our All-holy Lady, the Theotokos, stands at the head of this chorus of Saints and remains for us on earth our steadfast Protectress and constant Advocate before the Creator . . . ."

GeekyPenguin

06-11-2003, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by chitownxo
Catholics don't allow Protestants to take Communion because it implies a unity that technically isn't there. I was always told that the Protestants in the congregation are to pray that one day the schism will be healed.

This is similar to what I was taught - I was also told that Protestants view the Eucharist (Communion) as a representation of what Jesus did, rather than how Catholics view it as directly receiving Jesus. I know there is a particular word for this, I think consecration - we believe that the host and wine become Jesus and he becomes a part of us, and Protestants do not. That's how I explained to GPBoy's grandmother why I did not take Communion at their church (United Methodist) and she seemed to understand it.

honeychile

06-11-2003, 11:19 PM

The word you're looking for is Transfiguration (that the wafer literally becomes the body of Christ). Protestant & Baptist churches don't believe in it; they believe it's a symbolic ritual of faith.

I did the Newsweek search, but am too cheap to buy the article! :) I'm checking to see if there's another way to get around it!

Cluey

06-11-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
I know there is a particular word for this, I think consecration - we believe that the host and wine become Jesus and he becomes a part of us, and Protestants do not.

I think the word you were looking for is transubstantiation.

Transubstantiation is the alleged process whereby the bread and wine offered up at the communion service has its substance changed to that of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ while its accidents appear to be that of bread and wine.

From The Skeptics Dictionary (http://skepdic.com/transubstantiation.html)

honeychile

06-11-2003, 11:25 PM

Oops!!! My bad!!

Tom Earp

06-11-2003, 11:26 PM

I have gone back and tried to read this total thread!

Wow is mind boggoling!

Catholic in the Dictionary means Universal.

That is why when people talk about the Roman Religion, it is Roman Catholic. At the time the Romans were the Big Guns of the known world.

I am a member of the Anglican Catholic Church but not a Praticioner. I talk to my "God", when I think there is a need.

I have looked into Luthern, Methodist, Pryesbatryian, Babtist, Juedism, etc.

Last I saw, a Supreme Being is always there! Different Names but the same!

Last I saw, the reason for Land Grabbing is Relegion!

The Last I Saw, Look at History, How many Popes were There and What Countrys were There that they were in! What was the Reason for this?

Let me see if any one knows what I am talking about instead of ambugity!:cool:

While I cannot remember JAMOM post, It fits to a tee!

If you do not beleive in a Supreme Being, I gaurantee Tee You one thing, when you are about to die, You will be asking for His Help! Been There Seen It!:(

Cluey

06-11-2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by honeychile
Oops!!! My bad!!

I didn't even see your post until I came back to see the new posts. No offense meant or taken :)

MysticCat

06-12-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by AXO Alum
2) Do Catholics still believe that the Pope, even as a man, is infallible?The Roman Catholic Church has never taught that the pope, even as a man, is infallible. What the Church has taught is that when the Pope, by virtue of his office and in collegiality with his brother bishops, speaks or teaches regarding a matter of faith or doctrine, the Holy Spirit will protect him from speaking or teaching erroneously. The reason for this is so that the Church will not be led astray.

MysticCat

06-12-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by chitownxo
Purgatory is no longer an official teaching of the Catholic church. I have heard that it never was, but I'm not sure which is the correct version. From what I do know, the concept of purgatory came about as an answer to the question, "What if I'm neither good, nor bad where do I go?" Hey, you're going to purgatory...a kind of netherworldish waiting room where you wait for your sins to be forgiven.It is limbo -- the place for unbaptized children and the righteous who died prior to the coming of Christ -- that is no longer an official teaching. Purgatory -- the place of purification of the soul from the "stain" of venial (minor) sins and and temporal punishment for mortal (major) sins prior to entry into heaven -- is still an official teaching.

MysticCat

06-12-2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by honeychile
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm going to do a search on this once I post!), but didn't either Newsweek or Time do an article last fall on a major push in the Catholic church for Mary to be considered a "co-redemptress"? More accurate to say that some in the Catholic Church have advocated this, but the Vatican doesn't seem at all inclined to go along.

Nevertheless, the reasoning (short form) is this: the Epistles describe Jesus as the "new Adam." That is, just as death came through Adam's disobedience, life and redemption came through Christ's obedience. Likewise, just as Adam's disobedience came with Eve's cooperation (she first listened to the serpent and then offered Adam the fruit, making her partly guilty), Christ's obedience came through Mary's cooperation (making her partly responsible.) That is to say, when Gabriel visited Mary with the news that she was going to have a baby, she could have said "No way!" instead of "Be it done to me according to your word." Without her willing cooperation, none of the rest could have happened.

Hope that makes some sense.