What's wrong with the black female?

[jazbri]

I recently received an e-mail about a black male who was explaining why 'he sold out'. His selling out was to exercise his option of exclusively dating non-black females. He listed every reason under the sun that portrayed the black female as a negative, triflin', unappreciative, uncouth animal. From his experiences, non-black females did not present this challenge.

Being a black female, I was pissed off initially. However, the more I began to think about it, I found that his comments weren't worth justifying. I am now curious to understand what other folk feel about the black female and having relationships with us. I've heard from men (both black and non-black) that there's nothing like a black woman to black women are a complete turn-off and I simply cannot date them any longer. I feel that beneath all of the angry words and recriminations, there's got to be a certain level of truth. Meaning, somewhere along the way, our culture has created within us a tenacity and determination to survive that has eclipsed our black male. Any truth?

[PositivelyAKA]

if a person must tear down their own race (ie. mothers, sisters,etc.)in order to justify getting in bed with another race, then only prayer will help that person. black women are no worse or better then any other women on this earth, but unfortunately we have been through some mess in this country that many other women can not relate to. we don't have time for foolishness, so if so and so doesn't want to date us, then i say "Thank God", because we as black women need a strong, compassionate, sensible, responsible man, black, white or whatever to lead us, anything less is unacceptable and not desirable in my opinion.

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by jazbri:
I recently received an e-mail about a black male who was explaining why 'he sold out'. His selling out was to exercise his option of exclusively dating non-black females. He listed every reason under the sun that portrayed the black female as a negative, triflin', unappreciative, uncouth animal. From his experiences, non-black females did not present this challenge.

Being a black female, I was pissed off initially. However, the more I began to think about it, I found that his comments weren't worth justifying. I am now curious to understand what other folk feel about the black female and having relationships with us. I've heard from men (both black and non-black) that there's nothing like a black woman to black women are a complete turn-off and I simply cannot date them any longer. I feel that beneath all of the angry words and recriminations, there's got to be a certain level of truth. Meaning, somewhere along the way, our culture has created within us a tenacity and determination to survive that has eclipsed our black male. Any truth?

Some years ago, I went to a conference on the "Black" Family and heard some very provocative statistics. Among them, the following hung around in my mind: (1)6 out 10 black college students on the undergraduate level are FEMALE; (2)6 out of 10 black graduates from the graduate level are FEMALE; (3)almost 3/5 of the total "Black" male population is/was incarcerated, while 1/5 are HOMOSEXUAL. What is the balance? Consider this: Most people marry persons of the same economic and educational levels. If the above mentioned are accurate, what does that say about the future of "Black" America? It should tell us that sistas are looking in other arenas for their future husbands and fathers of their children. When you ask me what I think about that guy and his experience/choice, I wont respond to it. He has to experience what he has to.

As for how I feel about sistas, I'M INTO DEEP , DARK CHOCOLATE! I have traveled a bit; and have had some experiences with women of different cultures-primarily Latin and Asian ladies. I can't explain it but, I just LOVE my sistas! Yall's personalities cannot truly be categorized, and GOD himself sculptured each and every one of yall's BODIES! In all, women are women; but I HAVE TO HAVE A SISTA!

[mojo]

APE,

I feel ya. I'm the product of a military family, so I've been around the world. There are none like mother of the universe. My sisters win hands down.

[AKA2D '91]

AMEN SOROR POSITIVE.... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

AMEN, AMEN TO T.O. APE! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

[MsAnn]

AMEN T.O. APE!

It is true that our personalities cannot be heaped together into one category. That goes for ANY race of women or men.

I received an email some months ago similar to the one mentioned by jazbri, only it was written by a white female who was currently dating a black man (some of you may remember this). She had initially written it to a black magazine as a letter to the editor. Listeners wrote in to and emailed radio stations about the letter and it was eventually presented as the topic of discussion on some stations. She basically repeated what her boyfriend told her about black women (being trifling, needy, hostile, fat, etc). She also gave this LONG list of famous black men who had left their black wives for white women and THEN ended her letter by saying that instead of sistas giving ugly looks to a white woman that is with a black man, we need to watch and take notes!! Can you believe that?

[MsAnn]

I realize what her intent was. It was evident that she wanted exactly the kind of response that she received - hostility. Not only that, but she gained a moderate amount of publicity. I just thougt it was really tacky of her to say something like that. Though she provided her email address for responses, I refrained because I felt that what she wanted was an overwhelming influx of angry letters from black women to prove her point. My intent was not to start an angry discussion with the post, but rather to show the extreme to which this stereotype thing can go.

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by MsAnn:
AMEN T.O. APE!

It is true that our personalities cannot be heaped together into one category. That goes for ANY race of women or men.

I received an email some months ago similar to the one mentioned by jazbri, only it was written by a white female who was currently dating a black man (some of you may remember this). She had initially written it to a black magazine as a letter to the editor. Listeners wrote in to and emailed radio stations about the letter and it was eventually presented as the topic of discussion on some stations. She basically repeated what her boyfriend told her about black women (being trifling, needy, hostile, fat, etc). She also gave this LONG list of famous black men who had left their black wives for white women and THEN ended her letter by saying that instead of sistas giving ugly looks to a white woman that is with a black man, we need to watch and take notes!! Can you believe that?

Before yall get all yall's feather's ruffled, maybe yall need to look at what her intent is. Don't make that dude's assessment of yall appear to be accurate; think.

[Professor]

I read the states that The Original Ape presented. Which brings me to my point - - I have made post before similar to this topic. I firmly believe brothers need to date sisters. With the number of black females any black man should be able to find a compatible black female. If a brother wants a docile woman that barely or never voices her opinion and caters to his ever whim then there are still S I S T E R S out there that fit the build ( I just don't want one as such). If a brother wants a strong woman that is educated and independent then this type is out there. There are a variety of personalities when it comes to black women. Black men, especially educated Black men, need to find a sister and build healthy relationship instead of hooking up with Spanish, White, Irish, and all the rest. I'm tired of seeing successful Brothers with white women and I am about to get pissed seeing them with Latino women as well.

Post Scrip: I am not racist. I just believe successful Black men can find compatible successful Black women.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Professor:

Post Scrip: I am not racist. I just believe successful Black men can find compatible successful Black women.

Amen brother!



------------------
We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction.

Aesop c550 BC

[PositivelyAKA]

great responses pham!! i love the black family and want to see it grow stronger, not taking anything away from anyone else, but i can't wait to walk down the aisle to my black king. sisters and sorors we must believe in our men and lift them up. support him in his dreams and let him know you believe in him. don't lower your standards, but give the brothers a chance to be what God intended them to be. Powerful Leaders and our bestfriends.

question to the bruhs, could it be that since there are more educated etc. black women per statistics, that some of our men are intimidated by us and choose to marry women who are less independent or who are on a lower educational/economic level? men NEED to feel needed so maybe they don't feel like sisters need them.

[AKA2D '91]

AMEN, SOROR!


GOOD QUESTION...

***WAITING PATIENTLY FOR THE BROS TO RESPOND WHILE EATING POPCORN***

***LISTENING ATTENTIVELY TO TAKE NOTES***

I CRACK MYSELF UP SOMETIMES.... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Shelacious]

Originally posted by PositivelyAKA:
question to the bruhs, could it be that since there are more educated etc. black women per statistics, that some of our men are intimidated by us and choose to marry women who are less independent or who are on a lower educational/economic level? men NEED to feel needed so maybe they don't feel like sisters need them.

SisterSoror PositivelyAKA,

I agree 1920% with you, and even further it to say that we (women) may hold some share of the blame in this arena. As a successful, educated woman, it would make sense that I look for the same in a mate, right? Men are supposed to be able to "take care" of their women, right? For me, that would mean (at base) a man who is making close to six figures, has a BA +, owns his own home, single, no kids and tall, dark and handsome . And let's not forget, he must be willing to down for a long term (i.e. marriage), good relationship with his family and friends, fun, God-fearing (spiritual)...

Well, there are some good men out there who fit all the above. But there are also many good, generous men who may not be my economic or "formal" educational equal. Would you/your family/friends think less of you/him if you were to date or marry such a man? It seems that it is difficult for many of us "successful women" to give a man in that position serious consideration outside of a date or two. For example, what if he was all the above, but made $35K instead of $95K? That may make YOU, not him, the primary breadwinner. Or he had an AA degree, and you have a MA? How do you deal with these issues in the relationship? I’m interested in hearing from both the brothers and the sisters on whether a successful relationship can develop from these type of scenarios, and if so, what elements (respective personality traits, other) must be in place to enable success--or are they ultimately doomed to fail?

Best,
Shela--


------------------
Finer Womanhood: the "Cat's Meow" Since 1920

[fatto]

Personally, I feel that there is nothing like a white woman for a black man. Can I get a AMEN fellas?

[jazbri]

Originally,

I think my original post was not understood for it's intent; however, the later one's are truly touching on the points I was attempting to get across. The point I'm driving that is essentially that we, as sistahs, have truly got to come to terms with WHY are brothas are turning to these other races. It's easy to say that the fault lies with the brothas for making that decision to be with a non-black female. The challenge in my post was for sistahs to seriously conduct a self inventory and RECOGNIZE the role that we play in turning brothas in that direction. I am also interested in what brothas have to say about our character. I am of the opinion that it is not just a 'women in general' issue. I completely believe that it is a 'black woman issue'. I received this e-mail today that I feel totally supports my point. Sorry, it's lengthy...
WHY ARE BLACK WOMEN SCARING OFF THEIR MEN?
Have you met this woman? She has a good job, works hard, earns a good salary. She went to college, got her master's degree; she is intelligent. She is personable, articulate, well-read, interested in everybody and everything. Yet, she's single.
Or maybe you know this one. She is active in the church, faithful, and committed. She sings in the choir, serves on the usher board, attends every committee meeting. Loves the Lord and knows the Word. You'd think that with her command of the Scriptures and the respect of her church members, she'd have a marriage as solid as a rock. But again, no husband.
Or perhaps you recognize the community activist. She's a black lady or as she prefers, an African American woman on the move. She sports a short natural, sometimes cornrow braids, or even dreadlocks. She's an organizer, a motivator, a dynamo. Her work for her people speaks for itself-organizing women for a self-help collective, raising funds for a community cause, educating others around a new issue in South Africa. Black folks look up to her, and white folks know she's a force to be reckoned with. Yet once again, the men leave her alone.
What do these women have in common? They have so much; what is it they lack? Why is it they may be able to hook a man but can't hold him? The women puzzle over this quandary themselves. They gather at professional clubs, at sorority meetings or over coffee at the office and wonder what's wrong with black men. They hold special prayer vigils and fast and pray and beg Jesus to send the men back to church. They find the brothers attending political strategizing sessions or participating in
protests, but when it comes time to go home, the brothers go home to someone else. I know these women because I am all of these women. And after asking over and over again "What's wrong with these men?", it finally dawned on me to ask the question, "WHAT'S WRONG WITH US WOMEN?"
What I have found, and what many of these women have yet to discover, is that the skills that make one successful in the church, community or workplace are not the skills that make one successful in a relationship.
Linear thinking, self-reliance, structured goals and direct actions assist one in getting assignments done, in organizing church or club activities or in positioning oneself for a raise. But relationship-building requires different skills. It requires making decisions that not only to gratify you, but satisfy others. It means doing things that will keep the peace rather than achieve the goal, and sometimes it means creating the peace in the first
place. Maintaining a harmonious relationship will not always allow you to take the straight line between two points. You may have to stoop to conquer or yield to win. In too many cases, when dealing with men you will have to sacrifice being right in order to enjoy being loved. Being acknowledged as the head of the household is an especially important thing for many black men, since their manhood is so often actively challenged everywhere else. Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career-or their narrow concepts of same, that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message. So they end up without one. An interested man maybe attracted but, he soon discovers that this sister makes very little space for him in her life. Going to graduate school is a good goal and an option that previous generations of blacks have not had.
But sometimes the achieving woman will place her boyfriend so low on her list of priorities that his interest wanes. Between work, school and homework, she's seldom "there" for him, for the preliminaries that might develop a commitment to a woman. She's too busy to prepare him a home cooked meal or to be a listening ear for his concerns because she
is so occupied with her own. Soon he uses her only for uncommitted sex since to him, she appears unavailable for anything else. Blind to the part she's playing in the problem, she ends up thinking, "Men only want one thing." And she decides she's better off with the degree than the friendship. When she's 45, she may wish she may set different priorities while she was younger. It's not just the busy career girl who can't see the forest for the trees. A couple I know were having marital troubles. During one argument, the husband confronted the wife and asked what she thought they should do about the marriage, what direction they should take. She reached for her Bible and turned to Ephesians. "I know what Paul says and I know what Jesus says about marriage," he told her. "What do you say about our marriage?" Dumbfounded, she could not say anything. Like so many of us, she could recite the Scriptures but could not apply them to everyday living. Before the year was out, the husband had filed for divorce. Women who focus on civil rights or community activism have vigorous, fighting spirits and are prepared to do whatever, whenever, to benefit black people. That's good. That's necessary. But it needs to be kept in perspective. It's too easy to save the world and lose your man. A fighting spirit is important on the battlefield, but a gentler spirit is wanted on the home front. Too many women are winning the battle and losing the home. Sometimes in our determined efforts to be strong believers and hard workers, we contemporary women downplay, denigrate or simply forget our more traditional feminine attributes. Men value women best for the ways we are different from them, not the ways we are the same. Men appreciate us for our grace and beauty. Men enjoy our softness and see it as a way to be in touch with their tender side, a side they dare not show to other men. A hard-working woman is good to have on your committee. But, when a man goes home, he'd prefer a loving partner to a hard worker. It's not an easy transition for the modern black woman to make. It sounds submissive, reactionary, outmoded, oppressive. We have fought so hard for so many things, and rightfully so. We have known so many men
who were shaky, jive and untrustworthy. Yet we must admit that we are shaky, jive and willful in our own ways. Not having a husband allows us to do whatever we want, when and how we want to do it. Having one means we have to share the power and certain
points will have to be surrendered. We are terrified of marriage and commitment-yet dread the prospect of being single and alone. Throwing ourselves into work seems to fill the void without posing a threat. But like any other drug, the escape eventually becomes the cage. To make the break, we need to do less and "be" more. I am learning to "be still and know," to be trusting. I am learning to stop competing with black men and to collaborate with them, to temper my assertive and aggressive energy with softness and serenity. I'm not preaching a
philosophy of "women should be seen and not heard." But I have come to realize that I and many of my smart and independent sisters-are out of touch with our feminine center and therefore out of touch with our men.
Yall' I know that was long... By the end, all I could say was "Amen, you betta preach!"


[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 10, 2000).]

[BrandNubian]

jazbri,

Preach it! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif You make some very good points in your post. All I can say is folks need to pick up When Chickenheads Come Home to Roost by Joan Morgan. She discusses many of these exact issues. Specifically, she discusses the myth of the STRONGBLACKWOMAN. Let me clarify. She sees nothing wrong with black women being strong, but she does she a problem with black women trying to be superwoman, i.e. flexin' out of control, trying to do everything for everyone, except ourselves. It is, of course, extremely important to be involved, and to care about one's community, but STRONGBLACKWOMEN often do this at the expense of their own personal well-being and their intimate relationships often suffer. This may be because they subscribe to the philosophy that they don't need anyone and are not in touch with their emotions, because they are afraid to look "weak." So, jazbri, Joan would probably agree with some of what you are saying.

She also talks about the ENDANGEREDBLACKMAN. Women know what I am talking about, because everyone has heard at least one woman say, "Oh there are no good black men...they're all in prison, gay, dawgs, uneducated...." The list goes on. Joan Morgan also talks about how black men are seen as endangered because they supposedly have a rougher time in our society; they, more than the black women who is educated and "taking all the jobs", are being "oppressed by the man." What these beliefs lead to are a general idea that because men are so endangered, women should lower their standards for these men and not be so successful, etc. etc. (Joan Morgan points out that this is why you see some of the most on point sistahs with the most tired of brothas.) Women feel like they must settle because they really don't have much to choose from.

On the other hand, Morgan seems to say that women are too materialistic and they focus on the wrong things when trying to determine who's a "good" man. (I've heard many men get heated over this one.) Women miss out on perfectly good men when they reject brothas on the basis of the job he has, or the car he drives, etc. etc.

On a personal note, jazbri, I don't think it's a question of a return to our more "feminine" selves - a woman how is successful and on point is certainly feminine! - I think it is more of achieving some sort of balance. People (Women) should put as much effort into their intimate relationships and their personal connections as they do into their professional lives and social contributions.

Sorry for the long post. I guess we both had lots to say!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Peace Love and Progression
B.N.

------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[PositivelyAKA]

goodness http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif my my my, ok i agree disagree and don't know, but i appreciate all that was said. hmmmm well let me ask this, why did the black woman all of a sudden feel the need to take care of her self so much and her family/community, could it be that the black man with all his oppression etc. was not getting the job done http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif someone had to take up the slack. my boyfriend is younger then me and still has many years before he gets his degree (if he gets it, cause they are not easy to come by) but i believe in him. he doesn't have a nice car, it runs, its clean. he is intelligent, but i'm more cultured so to speak. i make more money then him, drive a nicer car, i technically am the breadwinner, you know if i looked at it from these perspectives then i would be lowering my standards, its not fair, but unfortunately many many sisters unless they choose to remain single or marry outside their race will have to marry men who are not on their economic or educational level, but as long as he is ambitious, loves you and is going for his then i don't see the problem, that's just life, that's the plate we were handed as blacks in this country, but it will not always be that way, i hope, eventually the majority of the brothers have got to rise to the occassion, so we don't always have to.

[lluvmook98]

All of this is true. Did anyone realize that this is almost an all female conversation?
Here we are in a frat room. ALONE http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

I guess I am a male basher. That is what my fiance tells me. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I just have a hard time when it comes to men and women relating because we think so differently sometimes about some subjects.

For example:
My best friend is married. Her husband was the one who really wanted to get married. (she was still in school.) Guess what, now that she has graduated he feels that his position has been threatened (he said so). She make more but she always has. He expects her to work just as long as he does then come home and cook, clean, entertain guest and then give "it" up. Recently, he came home found that she did not put away the laundry and called her a lazy f-ing b----. Then she said if it is like that (and she is the mother of his child) then maybe she sould not be his wife. So he took her keys (house car and all) and told her to leave. When she tried to get HER car keys he pushed her. The only thing that saved her was her brother heard it all and caught her. She would have hit her head on the corner of a wall. This all took place in front of their child.
I say all of this to say, she tried to yield and be supportive but his lack of accomplishment almost caused her harm.
Where do you draw the line between giving the support that is needed and stroking someones ego.
My experience has been that a lot of men need to feel superior. They need someone to look up to them as a child does to a parent. I read the book Men Are From Mars, Women Are.... The man that wrote the book said that men need to be needed but if you are too needy that is dependent and they don't like that either. They want you independent but not too independent. I don't understand.
I love black men. I want then to feel good about themselves because they are our kings. But why do I have to be made small for him to stand tall?
I want to be his queen and if I remember correctly, queens are just as loved and respected and well taken care of.

Yes, I asked my fiance but he is the same, he is good to me but let me even sound pro something female and he thinks I'm saying I don't need men. I just don't get it.

I can be supportive but I can not be subserviant.
I think some men have their head in the fifties when women did not think that they could breathe without their husband's approval. That is just not me. I can't do it just to help a man feel like he is in control. I don't want to control him but I need him to realize that he does not control me.
(When I say he/him I don't mean my fiance I just mean a man, any man)
I'm sorry that this is so long but it has been bottled up.

------------------
Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.
L.R.O.G.
#1 Fall 97
Omicron Pi

[Teresa2000]

I guess that I am the only one who found Fatto's comment a little disturbing?

-Teresa

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by PositivelyAKA:
goodness http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif my my my, ok i agree disagree and don't know, but i appreciate all that was said. hmmmm well let me ask this, why did the black woman all of a sudden feel the need to take care of her self so much and her family/community, could it be that the black man with all his oppression etc. was not getting the job done http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif someone had to take up the slack. my boyfriend is younger then me and still has many years before he gets his degree (if he gets it, cause they are not easy to come by) but i believe in him. he doesn't have a nice car, it runs, its clean. he is intelligent, but i'm more cultured so to speak. i make more money then him, drive a nicer car, i technically am the breadwinner, you know if i looked at it from these perspectives then i would be lowering my standards, its not fair, but unfortunately many many sisters unless they choose to remain single or marry outside their race will have to marry men who are not on their economic or educational level, but as long as he is ambitious, loves you and is going for his then i don't see the problem, that's just life, that's the plate we were handed as blacks in this country, but it will not always be that way, i hope, eventually the majority of the brothers have got to rise to the occassion, so we don't always have to.

PositivelyAKA:

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with jazbri's or my post, but either way...I do understand where you are coming from. Somebody had to pick up the slack. And I certainly think that if a man is right with and respects himself and loves and respects you, there shouldn't be a problem, regardless of what kind of car he drives, what kind of degree he has or doesn't have...

Just my two cents...

B.N.

------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[AKA_Monet]

My brother this year married a caucasian woman. Needless to say, I was devastated when the whole thing went down. YES, I was rather ruthless because I knew he way buying into the fact of what amerikkklan society what televising and advertising. However, I did attend both his wedding ceremony and reception. And although I chose not to be in his wedding (YES, I am the one who will have to face God and explain my actions) it basically broke down to this one thought: Am I going to ruin my brother's and my relationship for the rest of our lives for just a minimum of 2 hours of smiling even if it's fake? Can't I smile for just 2 hours? And I answered yes to both questions...

I am a trying to broaden my experiences and become a Pan Afrikanist, much like W.E.B. Dubois, Nkembe Nkrumah and Ntokaze Shange (sorry for the spelling). The fact is pham, is why would this society want to espouse the development and strengthen the Afrikan family? Isn't it within unity, there is strength? Do you think the europeons would want that to seriously happen, really?

I love my bruhs and they have treated me like crap. And as much crap as I have taken from them, I still love 'em. I can't help myself to the taste of chocolate! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

So for those out there that could go either way, never it ain't over till it's over. Ultimately what comes around, goes around and if you ain't straight with yourself, you won't find anyone to make it straight for jah...

I guess that's why HBO's Sex and the City is so popular...

Just my $0.08 cents worth.

[This message has been edited by AKA_Monet (edited October 10, 2000).]

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by Teresa2000:
I guess that I am the only one who found Fatto's comment a little disturbing?

-Teresa


Teresa:

No I found it disturbing as well. I really didn't know what to say exactly. I didn't want to just snap off http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif I guess I am over here contemplating an intelligent response. I'm contemplating not responding at all. After all, even though I strongly disagree with him, he is entitled to his opinion just as everyone else is. You know what I mean?

Peace Love and Progression
B.N.



------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[Teresa2000]

Well Fatto, if you are still out there, please feel free to elaborate on you comment!

-Teresa

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by lluvmook98:
All of this is true. Did anyone realize that this is almost an all female conversation?
Here we are in a frat room. ALONE http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

I guess I am a male basher. That is what my fiance tells me. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I just have a hard time when it comes to men and women relating because we think so differently sometimes about some subjects.

For example:
My best friend is married. Her husband was the one who really wanted to get married. (she was still in school.) Guess what, now that she has graduated he feels that his position has been threatened (he said so). She make more but she always has. He expects her to work just as long as he does then come home and cook, clean, entertain guest and then give "it" up. Recently, he came home found that she did not put away the laundry and called her a lazy f-ing b----. Then she said if it is like that (and she is the mother of his child) then maybe she sould not be his wife. So he took her keys (house car and all) and told her to leave. When she tried to get HER car keys he pushed her. The only thing that saved her was her brother heard it all and caught her. She would have hit her head on the corner of a wall. This all took place in front of their child.
I say all of this to say, she tried to yield and be supportive but his lack of accomplishment almost caused her harm.
Where do you draw the line between giving the support that is needed and stroking someones ego.
My experience has been that a lot of men need to feel superior. They need someone to look up to them as a child does to a parent. I read the book Men Are From Mars, Women Are.... The man that wrote the book said that men need to be needed but if you are too needy that is dependent and they don't like that either. They want you independent but not too independent. I don't understand.
I love black men. I want then to feel good about themselves because they are our kings. But why do I have to be made small for him to stand tall?
I want to be his queen and if I remember correctly, queens are just as loved and respected and well taken care of.

Yes, I asked my fiance but he is the same, he is good to me but let me even sound pro something female and he thinks I'm saying I don't need men. I just don't get it.

I can be supportive but I can not be subserviant.
I think some men have their head in the fifties when women did not think that they could breathe without their husband's approval. That is just not me. I can't do it just to help a man feel like he is in control. I don't want to control him but I need him to realize that he does not control me.
(When I say he/him I don't mean my fiance I just mean a man, any man)
I'm sorry that this is so long but it has been bottled up.


Yall aint NEVER alone ova heeya! Yall know where yall at!!!!!!! We just laid back, checkin' thangs; letting yall let it out- that's all.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Teresa2000:
[B]I guess that I am the only one who found Fatto's comment a little disturbing?

-Teresa

At first I found the comment disturbing as well. But then I decided to take it for what it's worth. This person is obviously just trying to start some mess in the A Phi A forum and I think everyone realizes that. The best way to deal with this type of post is to ignore it.


AKA_Monet, as usual you have made some very profound statements.

Now I have a very long post to add. This is an email that was sent to me.


All of a sudden I feel like baking....Feel Me Sistahs?

Black Man Recipe

I'm making a black man cake cause I'm hungry as hell.
And the sweet tooth I have, only a brother can break the spell.
Let me reach into my spice rack to see what I can get.
To make a mix that will stick to my stomach you can bet.

2 cups of intelligence,
1 cup of sugar brown.
Cause he's got to be sweet, mental deep and sound.
Cinnamon is always good to accent the taste.
A few cups of culture so he's down for his race.
You see, I won't bite into anything that's not conscious of its own.
That's why I stick to chocolate and leave angel food alone.
I am adding butter cause he must be smooth.
2 raisins for the dimples will also be cool.
I must add some nuts so he can reproduce.
Can't leave him hanging cause I like kids too!
I think I'll add a little salt to balance him out.
And a dominant profile to show he has clout.
For a responsible man I'll throw in some yeast.
I'll add 8 cups of strength and into the oven bake.
turn it to 360 degrees to balance out his mental state.
Now that it's done I'm sorry sistas I won't share the wealth.
That's why I'm sharing the recipe because I'm eating this Black man all by myself.

Good Black men are indeed all around us. We pass them on thestreets, in the malls and the halls at work. Most we can't see because we don't know what a good man looks like. He usually isn't flashy enough or rich enough to turn our heads. He might not wear a suit or push a Lex. He might not have a "body like Arnold with a Denzel face".

But as you mature, you realize it's better to find someone sho's got your back, than someone who turns your head. A good man doesn't wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. He doesn't just tell you what you want to hear, then do the opposite. He doesn't declare how sensitive, caring, sweet, sincere, yadda, yadda he is. (He won't have to because it shows).

He has his own opinions and you may clash, but he doesn't have to degrade you to prove he's right. He even admits at times to being wrong, especially if you are willing to do the same.

A good man isn't going to meet every item on your checklist. He is human with frailties and faults mixed in with all of his wonderful, strong attributes. He needs your love and respect. He needs to feel that you don't live to "catch" him doing something wrong so you can declare "Aha! I knew you were a dog!"

A good man doesn't necessarily give you a huge birthday or Valentine's Day gift. He shows his love in the way that are comfortable to him.

Don't judge him by TV standards. Noone is living that fairy tale for real. You'll miss out on your own fairy tale by buying into the myth that our men are no good.

It's just not true.

Black men, we salute you and thank you for who you are and all you've done.

Now if we could just get some to respond to this thread.......

[Teresa2000]

Fatto, you have got to be joking!

-Teresa

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by PositivelyAKA:
great responses pham!! i love the black family and want to see it grow stronger, not taking anything away from anyone else, but i can't wait to walk down the aisle to my black king. sisters and sorors we must believe in our men and lift them up. support him in his dreams and let him know you believe in him. don't lower your standards, but give the brothers a chance to be what God intended them to be. Powerful Leaders and our bestfriends.

question to the bruhs, could it be that since there are more educated etc. black women per statistics, that some of our men are intimidated by us and choose to marry women who are less independent or who are on a lower educational/economic level? men NEED to feel needed so maybe they don't feel like sisters need them.

There may be some merit in your statement about bruhs being intimidated. Some may be. With the number of educated sistas on the rise, bruhs SEE yall's economic independence daily. When an incarcerated bruh is released, his employment options aren't that great. He wont make the kind of money that pays the bills and affords him the ability to wine and dine yall like yall want. Many of yall know the brothas's plight, and refuse to date him unless he's "drivin'" this kinda car, or livin' in his own. You may not even acknowledge a brotha if his gear aint right; yet THAT brotha could be THE BEST MAN YOU WILL EVER HAVE. But you won't know it unless you lower yo standards a bit, and give the brotha some time.

[lluvmook98]

I don't know. Maybe it is just me! I guess I had some bad speriences (as my students would say. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by jazbri:
Originally,

I think my original post was not understood for it's intent; however, the later one's are truly touching on the points I was attempting to get across. The point I'm driving that is essentially that we, as sistahs, have truly got to come to terms with WHY are brothas are turning to these other races. It's easy to say that the fault lies with the brothas for making that decision to be with a non-black female. The challenge in my post was for sistahs to seriously conduct a self inventory and RECOGNIZE the role that we play in turning brothas in that direction. I am also interested in what brothas have to say about our character. I am of the opinion that it is not just a 'women in general' issue. I completely believe that it is a 'black woman issue'. I received this e-mail today that I feel totally supports my point. Sorry, it's lengthy...
WHY ARE BLACK WOMEN SCARING OFF THEIR MEN?
Have you met this woman? She has a good job, works hard, earns a good salary. She went to college, got her master's degree; she is intelligent. She is personable, articulate, well-read, interested in everybody and everything. Yet, she's single.
Or maybe you know this one. She is active in the church, faithful, and committed. She sings in the choir, serves on the usher board, attends every committee meeting. Loves the Lord and knows the Word. You'd think that with her command of the Scriptures and the respect of her church members, she'd have a marriage as solid as a rock. But again, no husband.
Or perhaps you recognize the community activist. She's a black lady or as she prefers, an African American woman on the move. She sports a short natural, sometimes cornrow braids, or even dreadlocks. She's an organizer, a motivator, a dynamo. Her work for her people speaks for itself-organizing women for a self-help collective, raising funds for a community cause, educating others around a new issue in South Africa. Black folks look up to her, and white folks know she's a force to be reckoned with. Yet once again, the men leave her alone.
What do these women have in common? They have so much; what is it they lack? Why is it they may be able to hook a man but can't hold him? The women puzzle over this quandary themselves. They gather at professional clubs, at sorority meetings or over coffee at the office and wonder what's wrong with black men. They hold special prayer vigils and fast and pray and beg Jesus to send the men back to church. They find the brothers attending political strategizing sessions or participating in
protests, but when it comes time to go home, the brothers go home to someone else. I know these women because I am all of these women. And after asking over and over again "What's wrong with these men?", it finally dawned on me to ask the question, "WHAT'S WRONG WITH US WOMEN?"
What I have found, and what many of these women have yet to discover, is that the skills that make one successful in the church, community or workplace are not the skills that make one successful in a relationship.
Linear thinking, self-reliance, structured goals and direct actions assist one in getting assignments done, in organizing church or club activities or in positioning oneself for a raise. But relationship-building requires different skills. It requires making decisions that not only to gratify you, but satisfy others. It means doing things that will keep the peace rather than achieve the goal, and sometimes it means creating the peace in the first
place. Maintaining a harmonious relationship will not always allow you to take the straight line between two points. You may have to stoop to conquer or yield to win. In too many cases, when dealing with men you will have to sacrifice being right in order to enjoy being loved. Being acknowledged as the head of the household is an especially important thing for many black men, since their manhood is so often actively challenged everywhere else. Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career-or their narrow concepts of same, that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message. So they end up without one. An interested man maybe attracted but, he soon discovers that this sister makes very little space for him in her life. Going to graduate school is a good goal and an option that previous generations of blacks have not had.
But sometimes the achieving woman will place her boyfriend so low on her list of priorities that his interest wanes. Between work, school and homework, she's seldom "there" for him, for the preliminaries that might develop a commitment to a woman. She's too busy to prepare him a home cooked meal or to be a listening ear for his concerns because she
is so occupied with her own. Soon he uses her only for uncommitted sex since to him, she appears unavailable for anything else. Blind to the part she's playing in the problem, she ends up thinking, "Men only want one thing." And she decides she's better off with the degree than the friendship. When she's 45, she may wish she may set different priorities while she was younger. It's not just the busy career girl who can't see the forest for the trees. A couple I know were having marital troubles. During one argument, the husband confronted the wife and asked what she thought they should do about the marriage, what direction they should take. She reached for her Bible and turned to Ephesians. "I know what Paul says and I know what Jesus says about marriage," he told her. "What do you say about our marriage?" Dumbfounded, she could not say anything. Like so many of us, she could recite the Scriptures but could not apply them to everyday living. Before the year was out, the husband had filed for divorce. Women who focus on civil rights or community activism have vigorous, fighting spirits and are prepared to do whatever, whenever, to benefit black people. That's good. That's necessary. But it needs to be kept in perspective. It's too easy to save the world and lose your man. A fighting spirit is important on the battlefield, but a gentler spirit is wanted on the home front. Too many women are winning the battle and losing the home. Sometimes in our determined efforts to be strong believers and hard workers, we contemporary women downplay, denigrate or simply forget our more traditional feminine attributes. Men value women best for the ways we are different from them, not the ways we are the same. Men appreciate us for our grace and beauty. Men enjoy our softness and see it as a way to be in touch with their tender side, a side they dare not show to other men. A hard-working woman is good to have on your committee. But, when a man goes home, he'd prefer a loving partner to a hard worker. It's not an easy transition for the modern black woman to make. It sounds submissive, reactionary, outmoded, oppressive. We have fought so hard for so many things, and rightfully so. We have known so many men
who were shaky, jive and untrustworthy. Yet we must admit that we are shaky, jive and willful in our own ways. Not having a husband allows us to do whatever we want, when and how we want to do it. Having one means we have to share the power and certain
points will have to be surrendered. We are terrified of marriage and commitment-yet dread the prospect of being single and alone. Throwing ourselves into work seems to fill the void without posing a threat. But like any other drug, the escape eventually becomes the cage. To make the break, we need to do less and "be" more. I am learning to "be still and know," to be trusting. I am learning to stop competing with black men and to collaborate with them, to temper my assertive and aggressive energy with softness and serenity. I'm not preaching a
philosophy of "women should be seen and not heard." But I have come to realize that I and many of my smart and independent sisters-are out of touch with our feminine center and therefore out of touch with our men.
Yall' I know that was long... By the end, all I could say was "Amen, you betta preach!"


[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 10, 2000).]

Bruhs! Did yall check her out? Man if I wasn't in the jam I'm in, I would HAVE to find her!

[jazbri]

What you talkin 'bout Original Ape?

[AKA2D '91]

JAM?

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by jazbri:
What you talkin 'bout Original Ape?

I'm talkin' 'bout YOU!!! You got a good head on yo shouldas; and if I was near you, I 'd have to lock you down!

[lluvmook98]

If we as women are so very flawed, what has caused us to becomed the way we have?

Were we happier when we did cook, clean and rely so heavily on our men.

Something changed. What was it?

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by lluvmook98:
If we as women are so very flawed, what has caused us to becomed the way we have?

Were we happier when we did cook, clean and rely so heavily on our men.

Something changed. What was it?

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

Ask your grandmothers, grand aunts, etc.

[lluvmook98]

Are you being smart. I really hope not because I was REALLY asking what do people feel caused the change. Maybe there was something in the social climate or maybe people just changed. So please tell me that you were not being a smart --- because I know that I was not.

[jazbri]

I think the differences that lie between our generation and our grandmothers are many. The main difference is obviously in how we were reared. My grandmothers were reared to be ladies, cheerfully create a loving home environment (inclusive of: cooking, cleaning, taking care of their husbands and children=family). They were groomed to be the 'traditional wife'. My mom raised me to be a lady, independent, complete your college education, and strive to be the best that I can. When you examine the two scenarios (my grandmothers and mine), they are completely different! I've made it clear in my previous posts the areas that I feel we've gone completely astray. I completely lump myself in the category of having gone astray of what I feel is the ultimate achievement. It would be to actually achieve the best of both the old and new generations, balancing a career with a positive, stable, nurturing home environment. (MUCH EASIER SAID THAN DONE) Being a single (soon-to-be divorced) mom of two, I can definitely see where I've gone wrong in my marriage, career, and the raising of my kids. My goal now is to achieve a healthy balance in all areas.

Original Ape, thanks for the compliment. I's blushin'! You're actually not too far from my hometown, Cleveland!

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 12, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 12, 2000).]

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by jazbri:
I think the differences that lie between our generation and our grandmothers are many. The main difference is obviously in how we were reared. My grandmothers were reared to be ladies, cheerfully create a loving home environment (inclusive of: cooking, cleaning, taking care of their husbands and children=family). They were groomed to be the 'traditional wife'. My mom raised me to be a lady, independent, complete your college education, and strive to be the best that I can. When you examine the two scenarios (my grandmothers and mine), they are completely different! I've made it clear in my previous posts the areas that I feel we've gone completely astray. I completely lump myself in the category of having gone astray of what I feel is the ultimate achievement. It would be to actually achieve the best of both the old and new generations, balancing a career with a positive, stable, nurturing home environment. (MUCH EASIER SAID THAN DONE) Being a single (soon-to-be divorced) mom of two, I can definitely see where I've gone wrong in my marriage, career, and the raising of my kids. My goal now is to achieve a healthy balance in all areas.

Original Ape, thanks for the compliment. I's blushin'! You're actually not too far from my hometown, Cleveland!

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 12, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 12, 2000).]

Did yall hear DAT! Not too far, huh?


(I need to learn how to put that winker, and sunglasses-wearin' face up where I want it)

[lluvmook98]

Thank YOU Jazbri.
i'm just wondering, you have said alot about the woman's role. What do you fell, from personal experience or from your "research" is the "proper" role of a man in a relationship/family?

I'm asking 'cause it is always good to learn new opinions. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by lluvmook98:
Are you being smart. I really hope not because I was REALLY asking what do people feel caused the change. Maybe there was something in the social climate or maybe people just changed. So please tell me that you were not being a smart --- because I know that I was not.

If you're referring to me, I am serious. They know what kind of things was on people's minds in their day. They know the difference in the way men approached women, and the way women reacted. Just like Steve Harvey said in that movie: it's in the music. In the 80s, brothas serenaded ladies-out of respect. They sought romance and relationships; today, we don't.

I think technology has a greater impact on life than people think. Look how easy cellular phones and pagers have made it to cheat.

[Professor]

"All of this is true. Did anyone realize that this is almost an all female conversation?
Here we are in a frat room. ALONE"

Sister - a reply is forthcoming (lol)

[Professor]

Originally posted by lluvmook98:
I don't know. Maybe it is just me! I guess I had some bad speriences (as my students would say. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

CTFU!!!! I must be getting old - - "speriences"

[AKA2D '91]

that's ebonics...


YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED WHAT THESE KIDS ARE SAYING THESE DAYS...I AM AT A HIGH SCHOOL, WHEN THE KIDS SPEAK, I AM LIKE....WTF?

[AKA2D '91]

that's ebonics...


YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED WHAT THESE KIDS ARE SAYING THESE DAYS...I AM AT A HIGH SCHOOL, WHEN THE KIDS SPEAK, I AM LIKE....WTF?

[jazbri]

I know that I've found a huge, bitter, horse pill for all of us females to swallow. I know, I've truly blown up our spot! I'd rather have to swallow that big bitter pill rather than live in denial of my ways. Anyway, to answer the question of "What is the proper role of a male?" I'd first start off by saying that because I'm not a man I can't really identify with what makes a man or what is the proper role for a man. Being a female, I can obviously state what my purpose and my desired goals are in a relationship and can respond with some degree of intelligence as to how my peers are doing. In any event, I can tell you what I'd desire in a man. He needs to know and love God. He'd have to love and respect himself first and foremost. He'd need to have a 'true love and respect' for women. I've experienced some men who didn't love themselves first and could not obviously love me. I think that a lot of men look at and feel desire for women; however, they don't have a basic love and respect for them. It's that kind of love that I believe mommas and grandmommas have to instill in them. I have found it to be a rare breed of man that have that true love. I hope yall can get where I'm coming from. So my 'recipe' for this man has love and respect for himself and the same for my species. The fourth ingredient would be honesty. A fifth ingredient would be patience. Patience for me and all of my shortcomings as well as for himself. My sixth ingredient would be humbleness in spirit. I'd take all of that and mix that up with an intense sexuality. I'm a keep it real with yall. I'm not talking about just 'bedroom sex'. I mean the kind of brother that makes you feel that inner sensuality throughout your being. In my recipe, that man has to celebrate that I am not only his woman but that I am woman. I could probably go on for much, much longer than this post could allow so I'm gonna shut up now cuz' I think I covered the most important stuff!

[LadyAKA]

I can't bear to read all the post on this topic, but I can pick up where Jazbri has left off, and actually I only have one thing to say: My mother told me that if a man does not love and respect his mother/grandmother then he will never cherish me. Personally on Jazbri's list that (loving his mother) would come third, i.e. after knowing/loving the lord and himself - I think it follows that if he loves and respects his mom then he will respect me and women in general, usually only a mom/grandma (legal guardian or what have you) can teach that. Don’t get uptight yet, I simply mean you can only learn this in the home with love and through love!!

Oh and I love the intense sexuality ingredient ...

Okay I am done invading your board I am going home.

[This message has been edited by LadyAKA (edited October 16, 2000).]

[DoggyStyle82]

Lady AKA and Jazbri: a man learns to treat a woman by how he sees the women that he loves being treated. A boy that grows up in an environment that devalues or mistreats women, will surely do the same. If he hears and sees his mother, sister, aunts being called a ho or bitch without begging to differ will continue the pattern. A boy must see a woman being treated like a queen by a man that he respects. If he views them as they are treated in popular culture or as male misogynists view them, their is little hope. Women rarely succeed in teaching men how to love and treat women because it is always from a females perspective. Men raised in such a way are less misogynistic but usually are spoiled and practice forms of mental crulety or have responsibilty issues. Its a catch 22, but I and my 3 brothers learned how to treat a black woman from observing how our father dealt with our mother, with respect and love, but always as a man who knows that he needs his woman to make his life whole.

[lluvmook98]

jazbri,

I hear you. I just want to clarify one thing. I realized that you aren't a man and can not say what a man is. But you made clear your stance on a woman's role so I was wondering what your personal opinion was about the man's role. I did not expect for you to interpret for them. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

[jazbri]

lluvmook98,

I'm sorry... I don't quite understand your clarification. What do you mean when you state that you didn't expect for me to interpret for them? I attempted to answer the question obviously from a female perspective. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

[MissDiamond]

To answer the original question, There isn't a dam thing wrong with black women. I am completely shocked to come in here and read some of the non-sense I see posted. I can not FATHOM why I am the only woman that have found "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" to be disguting and completely chauvinistic? Contrary to what the author of this ridiculous piece or writing wants us to believe, this was, without a doubt, written by a man. I will not believe a black woman would put such self-degrading absurdity out for the world to see.
Jazbri, dear, sister...it seems that you have bought into this foolish ideology. Black women have worked too hard and too long to have the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to be equal (and potentially superior) to our male counterparts. PLEASE do not attempt to tear it all down with this kind of thinking.
Black Women, please do not lower your standard, or give up your goals and dreams so that some black men with low self-esteems, inferiority complexes and identity problems can feel better about themselves!
Sisters let's not regress! Black men make a conscious decision to date outside of their race...don't allow them or anyone else to shift the blame to us. In the words of Maya Angelou "...it has nothing to do with you, and EVERYTHING to do with the other person (in this case, the black male)...your not in it...take yourself completely out of the situation." It is our job to love, respect and be there for our black men...it is not our job to keep them pleased at all costs, even if it means limiting ourselves and our personal acheivments. Go out there and get those Masters degrees and PhDs, you'll still have good black men (independent and secure within themselves) that will be right by your side. Don't worry yourselves with those who choose to date exclusively out of their race. Ladies, believe me, any black man that would do that wouldn't be worth much of your time anyway.
Forgive the long post, but I can not stand to hear black woman put themselves down like this. How can we be expected to uplift our black kings if we're not allowed to uplift ourselves first.
Jazbri, are you suggesting that maybe if Black women don't try to strive for the highest, quality eduaction and don't be so active in their communities and instead we make sure there's a big pot of collad greens and neckbones on the stove when our black men get home...maybe, just maybe we can compete with the white woman for their affections. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif I don't, for a minute, think so!

And if we do sacrifice for the sake of their happiness, what are they going to sacrifice for us? WOULD they do it for us? Wake up and smell the Cappuccino's honey, this is not the way to go.

Another thought, if black men are leaving us because we're strong, independent, and goal oriented and won't tolerate being stepped on and used...........What is this saying about white women?

I welcome any and all responses.


[This message has been edited by MissDiamond (edited October 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MissDiamond (edited October 17, 2000).]

[jazbri]

Dear Miss Diamond,

I've been expecting the thread of your response. My initial reaction to the first e-mail in regards to the black male turning to non-black females was mirrored in yours. With some honest soul searching along with observing my sister friends, I began to see not only the fallibility in his viewpoints but in mine as well. I feel that it's completely wrong for him to justify his seeking someone outside of his race based on the negative experiences he's had with black women. My question (which apparently you find to be subservient and degrading) is to analyze me (the black woman). I found many things 'wrong' (for lack of a better term) with me as well as my peers. I haven't 'bought' into any ideologies. I have, however, been a shoulder to cry on and have cried on my share of shoulders trying to identify what it is that I'm doing wrong. Let me state that our men are definitely not blameless nor are they without issues themselves. My focus, however, is on me (the black woman). So what part (and this is key) am 'I' playing in reducing me to tears on my girlfriends' shoulders? In not one instance am I a proponent for "giving up my dreams and goals" so that black men with low self-esteems, inferiority complexes, and identity problems can better themselves. Nor do I feel the writer is a proponent of that 'foolish ideology'. In a sense you're solidifying my point. Some women feel that if they concede or if they compromise in a relationship they feel that they are being submissive. Some women feel that if they hold their tongue and 'pick their battles' they're allowing their men to get over on them! Some women feel that if they choose the man that may not have all of the very same credentials they themselves have, they are somehow settling. I recognize these characteristics within myself and my peers. I can only speak on something if I've experienced. After a failed marriage, I can only say that I must shoulder my portion of the wrong.

I salute and am eternally grateful for my sisters and bruthas who have led the struggle so that I am able to vote, to work in corporate America, to be able to attain that PhD, JD, MBA, to be considered beautiful contrary to popular belief and am now gracing the covers of Vogue, Cosmopolitan, etc. I also thank God everyday for a Nana who has instilled in me to be gracious and to always be a lady! I thank my father who raised me to be independent and strong.
MissDiamond, I simply choose not to be 'potentially superior' to my black male counterpart. I simply want to be his Queen, his helpmate, his calm in all of the chaos. I suppose that's the least popular position to take apparently when you look at the divorce rate in our community alone. One final disclaimer, I recognize that our black men have many areas of improvement to be spotlighted as well. But my question wasn't for them, it was for us...

[Shelacious]

Both Miss Diamond and Jazbri bring valid comments. I never got the impression that we were advocating a subservient role regarding our relationship with our men. My perspective was in looking at how we may overlook "the good man" because of some archaic theories about the "package" the "good man" should be in. Indeed, I have no desire to walk two steps behind my man, but I do not have the desire to walk two steps ahead of him either. I want to walk side-by-side, arm-in-arm as we walk through this life together.

The issue becomes, though, is "what do I consider equivalent? Equivalent doesn’t mean he must have identical education, salary and job responsibilities as myself. I think how we define equivalence is where we sometimes do a disservice to ourselves. I may make more money than my honey, for example, but he may be a better cook, so he's got responsibility for the kitchen. He may be a better money manager. I'm not looking for a Mr. Mom at all, but I would expect us to be equal in what we bring to the relationship in terms of time or dedication of talents. That's why I'm able to date a man who is a "good man" but is not bringing mega bucks or a Ph.D. (although he is getting his Masters) to the table--he has other qualities that balance out my own shortcomings. Of course the other side of the coin is that the brother needs to also be comfortable with the fact that he is not the primary breadwinner in the relationship, and that what he contributes to the relationship are not all the traditional things men are used to bringing. Some men can't handle that and may resent the woman for “usurping” his “natural” position. The key is for both men and women to not allow the breadwinner or educational issues to bring too much power into the relationship. Yes, earning the money is important, but I cannot “lord that over him” and negate his contributions as “less” than my own or vice versa. I have to be willing to appreciate the fact that while different, his contributions are just as important as the money I bring in. If I can’t do that, or if he cannot, our relationship is doomed to fail.


------------------
Finer Womanhood: the "Cat's Meow" Since 1920

[lluvmook98]

I'm sure that most of you will be relieved that I am removing myself from the discussion. But first...

Jazbri,
The clarification was because you stated in one of your response that you are not a man so you can't answer what the male's role is but you can only say what you want in a man. So I was just clarifying that I did not expect you to answer from the male point of view but what YOU think their ROLE should be. Not how you want them to treat you. I realize that most women want a loyal, honest respectful etc. man. But what do you think that he should do not just be. For example you said things about a woman's domestic roles, I was just wondering what you expected of a man. That was all. No sarcastism on my part. Just trying to understand your perspective.

Secondly,
I can see both sides I guess I just wanted to be clear that everyone involved in the discussion did not feel that somehow all of the problems in Black relationships fall on the shoulders of women. While I do think that some women take the we are equal thing too far I think that many men don't take it seriously enough. I like MissDiamond am just concerned that women not feel that they are the only ones in relationships that need to bend. I often use the "I want to be his queen example." When I do I remind women and men that a queen is treasured just as much as a king. Maybe differently but treasured all the same.
It scares me when I see women so pressed to have a man and equate a man with happiness that they degrade themselves as humans. I want to do for my fiance but not because I need to keep him or do it to make him happy as a slave might his master but because OUR collective happiness is based upon pleasing each other.
Men and often women think that the only sacrifice is to be made by women. It is a huge sacrifice to the man if he does not cheat. But the woman had better not cheat, cook, have constant wonderful sex, give him healthy kids, work, make money (but not more than him) and massage his ego.
It frightens me to think that many women feel that they are happy if their man is happy. That all depends upon what you both agree is acceptable. I know of a man who told a co-worker that he brings home the money so he should be able to do what he wants. But why do so many men think that? They are willing to do things at the expense of their women's feeling (as if she should not have any) but would leave her in a NY sec. if she thought of the same. We need to take care of each other (money is not all there is to a man being a provider)what about providing for the womans emotional and spiritual needs as well.

I don't want to out shine my man, I just want to shine with him...
I don't want cheat, I also don't want to be cheated on...
I don't want to ignore his needs, I also don't want mine ignored...
The list can go on and on.

Just as women need to think of men's feelings, the same needs to be reciprocated.
I am a queen not a slave.

[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 17, 2000).]

[MissDiamond]

Jazbri, there is nothing wrong with soul searching. The problem that I have is what you're soul searching about. In my opinion, anything entitled "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" should not be something that should make black women start re-evaluating and analyzing themselves. The title alone infuriates me. Why are WE scaring the black man away? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif
I am sick and tired of hearing things like this about black women. It's bad enough others have and continue to portray us negatively, surely we don't need to start validating what they say by beginning to believe it and having the audacity to start adding our own little derogatory writings about the scary, self-indulgent black woman.
Analyzing yourself is not subservient and degrading, thinking that in order to truly be "in touch with our feminine centers" and to keep our men from running to the white woman, we have to put the black man ahead of our own personal acheivements and goals is!
Sister, you said yourself that black women can be gracious and lady-like, yet independent and strong.....(many of us are) so any black man that has had bad "speriences" (to quote Iluvmook98) with women who they and yourself seem to think are not treating them like kings, then there's plenty of independent, educated, sexy, feminine black women out there that will. So, AINT NO REASON TO GO IN SEARCH OF SOMEONE OUTSIDE THEIR RACE!
There is and never will be a shortage of good, black women so believe me when I tell you the men that are "scared away" are doing it because THEY WANT TO. Then to try and put the blame on us to justify what they're doing is nothing short of being a coward.
Now I don't know the circumstances behind your failed marriage, but sister PLEASE don't continue to beat yourself up over it. Divorce happens to the best of us. And as I'm sure you had your part in it's failure (as does your husband)it doesn't mean you're less of a woman. You've probably done some things that were wrong, but as a black woman there is nothing wrong with you.
Understand this.
To another point, I didn't say you or any other black woman should choose to be superior to black men. I merely pointed out our the fact that we COULD be.

As far as me solidifying your point. I don't see how. Conceding, and holding your tongue so that it makes your man feel more masculine IS a form of being submissive.

Why do black women allow themselves to be physically and menatlly abused by their "Kings"?

Why are our self-esteems so low?

These are questions I would go soul searching about. Why Black men are dating white women? I, personally, wouldn't waste my time pondering. Actually, I think it's more of an identity problem or personal issue that they have with themselves more than being "scared" off by us.

[MissDiamond]

Iluvmook98, I'm loving your last post girl!!
Just another note, I believe Doggystyle said something about needing a woman to make him whole or complete. Forgive me if I'm misquoting you.
Men don't need women to make them whole and woman definitley don't need men to complete them! You should make yourself whole and complete, your significant other should only compliment you. Kind of like icing on a cake.
What does that type of thinking say about single men and women? Are they NOT complete despite all of their accomplishments in life?

[lluvmook98]

I guess I lied. I'm in here again. Anyway, I remembered something else.

I read somewhere that men are more satisfied getting married than women.
Women start off happier pre-nuptuals and men are happier post-nuptuals.
The reason?
The article said because men go into marriage thinking that it will be a hastle and find that they are loved and cared for. Women go into it thinking that they will be loved and cared for and it ends up being a hastle because they are cooking, cleaning, working. pregnant and ignored.

To add to MissDiamond's statement about us (men/women) needing each other. I was taught that your mate is an accessory not a necessity.
Just like any accessory, you look good before you put it on but once it is on you look great!


[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 17, 2000).]

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by Shelacious:
Both Miss Diamond and Jazbri bring valid comments. I never got the impression that we were advocating a subservient role regarding our relationship with our men. My perspective was in looking at how we may overlook "the good man" because of some archaic theories about the "package" the "good man" should be in. Indeed, I have no desire to walk two steps behind my man, but I do not have the desire to walk two steps ahead of him either. I want to walk side-by-side, arm-in-arm as we walk through this life together.

The issue becomes, though, is "what do I consider equivalent? Equivalent doesn’t mean he must have identical education, salary and job responsibilities as myself. I think how we define equivalence is where we sometimes do a disservice to ourselves. I may make more money than my honey, for example, but he may be a better cook, so he's got responsibility for the kitchen. He may be a better money manager. I'm not looking for a Mr. Mom at all, but I would expect us to be equal in what we bring to the relationship in terms of time or dedication of talents. That's why I'm able to date a man who is a "good man" but is not bringing mega bucks or a Ph.D. (although he is getting his Masters) to the table--he has other qualities that balance out my own shortcomings. Of course the other side of the coin is that the brother needs to also be comfortable with the fact that he is not the primary breadwinner in the relationship, and that what he contributes to the relationship are not all the traditional things men are used to bringing. Some men can't handle that and may resent the woman for “usurping” his “natural” position. The key is for both men and women to not allow the breadwinner or educational issues to bring too much power into the relationship. Yes, earning the money is important, but I cannot “lord that over him” and negate his contributions as “less” than my own or vice versa. I have to be willing to appreciate the fact that while different, his contributions are just as important as the money I bring in. If I can’t do that, or if he cannot, our relationship is doomed to fail.



Shelacious:

I think you make some excellent points, and sum up the issue quite nicely. Well said!

Peace, Love and Progression,
B.N.


------------------
"We must combine the toughness of the serpent with the softness of the
dove, a tough mind with a tender heart."

-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Professor]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MissDiamond:
To answer the original question, There isn't a dam thing wrong with black women. I am completely shocked to come in here and read some of the non-sense I see posted. I can not [b]FATHOM why I am the only woman that have found "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" to be disguting and completely chauvinistic? Contrary to what the author of this ridiculous piece or writing wants us to believe, this was, without a doubt, written by a man. I will not believe a black woman would put such self-degrading absurdity out for the world to see.
Jazbri, dear, sister...it seems that you have bought into this foolish ideology. Black women have worked too hard and too long to have the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to be equal (and potentially superior) to our male counterparts. PLEASE do not attempt to tear it all down with this kind of thinking.
Black Women, please do not lower your standard, or give up your goals and dreams so that some black men with low self-esteems, inferiority complexes and identity problems can feel better about themselves!
Sisters let's not regress! Black men make a conscious decision to date outside of their race...don't allow them or anyone else to shift the blame to us. In the words of Maya Angelou "...it has nothing to do with you, and EVERYTHING to do with the other person (in this case, the black male)...your not in it...take yourself completely out of the situation." It is our job to love, respect and be there for our black men...it is not our job to keep them pleased at all costs, even if it means limiting ourselves and our personal acheivments. Go out there and get those Masters degrees and PhDs, you'll still have good black men (independent and secure within themselves) that will be right by your side. Don't worry yourselves with those who choose to date exclusively out of their race. Ladies, believe me, any black man that would do that wouldn't be worth much of your time anyway.
Forgive the long post, but I can not stand to hear black woman put themselves down like this. How can we be expected to uplift our black kings if we're not allowed to uplift ourselves first.
Jazbri, are you suggesting that maybe if Black women don't try to strive for the highest, quality eduaction and don't be so active in their communities and instead we make sure there's a big pot of collad greens and neckbones on the stove when our black men get home...maybe, just maybe we can compete with the white woman for their affections. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif I don't, for a minute, think so!

And if we do sacrifice for the sake of their happiness, what are they going to sacrifice for us? WOULD they do it for us? Wake up and smell the Cappuccino's honey, this is not the way to go.

Another thought, if black men are leaving us because we're strong, independent, and goal oriented and won't tolerate being stepped on and used...........What is this saying about white women?

I welcome any and all responses.

MISSDIAMOND,

You hit the nail dead on the head. While my black sisters are making great strides in education, board rooms and in the community the role of black men is not diminished. I F E E L you! There is nothing wrong with a black woman. Instead, the question should be what's wrong with black men! Seemingly, the problem lies with the men. I don't know the answer but I do know that there are contributing factors. In ratio there are more black women then black men. Taking into account the number of black men in jailhouses, on drugs, etc. the availability of black men is unfortunately limited. Women have had no choice but to assume many of the traditional roles once guarded by men. The reality is that black men need to reaffirm their commitment to empowering themselves which include fearing God, education, and respect for themselves and others. More over, once black men black have these assurances, they need to not forget black sisters who have regardless of the situation always been their primary support system. This point is not the time nor at any point for black men to feel they need to consider dating/marring women of other races.

Post Script: I have been trying to get through this book Cream in my coffee or maybe it is Milk in my coffee (?) by Eric Jerome Dickey. Anyway, a brother haphazardly ends up dating a white women and feels guilty for dating outside his race. For the black men that do make this C H O I C E, I wonder if guilt also lerks at the back of their mind - - It certainly would for me.

[jazbri]

MissDiamond,
The e-mail that I received entitled "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" was not the question that initiated my soul searching. The point of my topic was to analyze 'me' the black female. I do think that it is healthy to pay attention to my actions and to conduct an inventory of myself. Only through these actions am I able to grow. I am not on a soap box to negatively portray the black female. My attempt was to simply receive feedback from our peers to understand their thoughts on some of the areas that we may or may not need improvement. Apparently you don't feel that we do and I respect your opinion. I guess it's your tone that I found to be condescending. I don't know if you've taken the opportunity to thoroughly read the comments I've posted because in no way have I stated "In order for us to truly be in touch with our feminine centers" and to keep our men from running to the white woman, we have to put the black man ahead of our own personal achievements and goals". Again, I'd like to quote that I am not in agreement with any black male/female for that matter justifying his/her CHOICE to date outside of his/her race based on their negative experiences with the black male/female. On another note, I truly do not beat myself up about my marriage. I'm simply using my marriage in this thread as a platform to speak on relationship issues. I'm thoroughly over it and have completely moved on. I have, as anyone in my position should, evaluated myself and am cognizant of my own issues. To address another point you made, I really don't understand how any one person can be SUPERIOR to another. I believe that I'm no better than the next man/woman. I also don't think that holding my tongue allows my man to feel more masculine. Nor did I state that it would, I believe you've added that in to my point. If I chose to argue over every minute issue in a relationship, I don't think I'd gain much enjoyment from it. I simply choose to pick my battles.

In closing, I feel that you and I have some similar views and others that are quite disparaging.

[jazbri]

Sorry to be here again! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

I wanted to thank EVERYONE for their comments and if nothing else I've learned what others think about the black female. I've learned that we are well respected and loved by our black male. I've also learned what we think of ourselves! We are very proud and strong group of women who have taken great strides in a society that often does not recognize us as such! Thanks for the insight. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 18, 2000).]

[MissDiamond]

Originally posted by jazbri:
MissDiamond,
The e-mail that I received entitled "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" was not the question that initiated my soul searching. The point of my topic was to analyze 'me' the black female. I do think that it is healthy to pay attention to my actions and to conduct an inventory of myself. Only through these actions am I able to grow. I am not on a soap box to negatively portray the black female. My attempt was to simply receive feedback from our peers to understand their thoughts on some of the areas that we may or may not need improvement. Apparently you don't feel that we do and I respect your opinion. I guess it's your tone that I found to be condescending. I don't know if you've taken the opportunity to thoroughly read the comments I've posted because in no way have I stated "In order for us to truly be in touch with our feminine centers" and to keep our men from running to the white woman, we have to put the black man ahead of our own personal achievements and goals". Again, I'd like to quote that I am not in agreement with any black male/female for that matter justifying his/her CHOICE to date outside of his/her race based on their negative experiences with the black male/female. On another note, I truly do not beat myself up about my marriage. I'm simply using my marriage in this thread as a platform to speak on relationship issues. I'm thoroughly over it and have completely moved on. I have, as anyone in my position should, evaluated myself and am cognizant of my own issues. To address another point you made, I really don't understand how any one person can be SUPERIOR to another. I believe that I'm no better than the next man/woman. I also don't think that holding my tongue allows my man to feel more masculine. Nor did I state that it would, I believe you've added that in to my point. If I chose to argue over every minute issue in a relationship, I don't think I'd gain much enjoyment from it. I simply choose to pick my battles.

In closing, I feel that you and I have some similar views and others that are quite disparaging.


Jazbri, I have read your posts carefully and some things that I quoted are from you, but most are from the e-mail that was sent to you, which you said in one of your posts that you are in agreement with (correct me if I'm wrong).

Sister, in my last post I was trying to be encouraging and supportive to you, but I see you chose to take it in a negative way.

I don't see where our views are similar, but I will re-read the posts again.

You asked a question, and I answered it. There's nothing wrong with the black woman.

We have our problems and issues like anybody else. But as a whole, we are a just fine thank you.

[DoggyStyle82]

lluvmook98: I think you may have been reading too much Iyanla or some other specious new age philosophy. It is true that in todays environment, males and females bring a lot of emotional and pre-relationship baggage to the table. In that construct, indeed, the individuals need to know that they are whole and complete before they can consummate something larger. My sense of completeness is that a man's life is incomplete or rather not as complete without his mate. It does not mean that he/she is not well-rounded or not together. But man and woman were made for each other and complement each other. We are basically splitting hairs, but there is no greater or better creature ever created by the hand of God than the Black Woman.

[lluvmook98]

What did I say that had to do with new age philosophy?

MissDiamond mentioned that YOU said men/women complete each other and I merely stated that we should complement NOT make each other. What does that have to do with new age? Please inform me.

Oh! I never said there was anything wrong with the black women and I never said anything about baggage?
I'll re-read, maybe I am wrong.

[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 18, 2000).]

[lluvmook98]

DoggyStyle: Yeah Brother, I just re-read and the only PERSONAL OPINION that I expressed was that a couple's collective happiness depends upon each others ability to bend.

The other comment that I made was what someone else said to me that I thought was relevant for people to realize. As much as we are designed for each other, some, (esp. some women) forget that there are two and only think of one (not themselves) Yes we need to remember the divine appointment of the male/female relationship but people also need to know that they are bigger than just their partner's happiness. I can not make you happy if I'm not happy to some degree. What is so new age about that?

OOPS there I go getting defensive again. *lol* http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 18, 2000).]

[tickledpink]

Originally posted by jazbri:
Some women feel that if they concede or if they compromise in a relationship they feel that they are being submissive. Some women feel that if they hold their tongue and 'pick their battles' they're allowing their men to get over on them! Some women feel that if they choose the man that may not have all of the very same credentials they themselves have, they are somehow settling. I recognize these characteristics within myself and my peers....

...But after re-reading the title, aren't these characteristics that many non African American women (especially Caucasion women) have as well? Respectfully, I would like to bring a few points to the forefront:

I've viewed many mixed couples, and to be honest, I've never seen this "tongue-in-cheek" Caucasion woman that I've heard is fantasized about by these brothers. At the risk of stepping on toes (sorry, but it's my opinion), many (not ALL) of these women are very beligerent, obnoxious, and are trying to emulate the stereotypical "sista girl" that I resent because I personally do not feel that I carry myself in that manner. They do not display the characteristics of the epitome of womanhood, especially in the lower echelons of society (to put it nicely) and this is usually what is chosen. And when I've seen upper class non-african american women with a brother, it's usually after he's gotten successful. On the other hand, many sista's have been with the brothers when they've had nothing, and suddenly, now that they're successful, we are no longer good enough... we have too many emotional hang ups.
It is frustrating to see these women "tolerated", to see our brothers "yes ma'aming" and "no ma'ming" them, simply because of their skin color. Yet, when we've held our tongues for too long and enough is enough, have opinions, and are strong --- then we're "trippin'".

No, I do not think that there is anything wrong with the Black Woman in general. We all have areas that we need to improve in, but that's across all races. If a black man chooses to be with a woman of a different ethnicity, that's fine --- especially if he chose her because he truly fell in love with her. But we are not to blame.

Oh --- and AMEN to DoggyStyle's comment.

[lluvmook98]

That is cold soror. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 18, 2000).]

Glad that I was not on your "hit list" http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 18, 2000).]

[tickledpink]

Sorry, Mook, but I had to tell it like I have seen it -- as blunt as it was. However Jazbri, my post was in no way intended to "attack" or belittle your opinion. I believe that as adults, we can respectfully agree to disagree.

[Professor]

I agree, there is nothing wrong with the black woman!

[jazbri]

I'm feeling you Tickled Pink...

I believe one of the best avenues of learning is through discussion and debate. Although I may not agree with you I have none the less learned something of value from you.

Again, I just want to put it out there that I am in no shape or form a proponent for the excuse used by many bruthas out there of blaming us for their CHOICE to date outside of their race... Somehow, I feel that a lot of respondents feel that my beliefs are so aligned. My original question was posed that way to be an attention getter and I suppose that's what it has done!



[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 19, 2000).]

[AKA_Monet]

First off, MissDiamond, thanks for droppin' some knowlege!!! We all really need to keep redirecting ourselves as sistahs.

Secondly, as a friend of mine says, bruhs that are pursaded by caucasian women--it's just one less person to think about at Christmas time... Forget a bruh, 'cuz it's like trying to change a gay man, straight...

Thirdly or shall I say on the 3rd eye, Afrikans stuck in amerikkklan were unable to foster positive enlightening relationships simple because it could spell death for the relationship participants. The europee-on slave masters didn't want the slaves' sons and daughters risin' up and takin' over the plantation, that's why he killed the men AND women and sold off the children when families were formed.

When our enslaved ancestors were "emancipated", the first folk they would try to find is someone remotely related to them that had an impact on their lives. That's why extended family is such a treasure for the Afrikan family...

I have had plenty of bruhs knock me down spiritually enough to know that it's their issue. If I wanted to kick myself down, I certainly don't need a spiritually inept person helpin' me. And that's gotten me beyond the hurt. As far as bruhs dating, marrying and lovin' other women, the longer we assimilate completely into this culture, the more destituted our Afrikan families will be... Oh well, 'cuz sistahs are coming back with a vengence dating, marrying and lovin' other men... And not to bash a bruh for his finances, but if I were one of those women that had to have the funding by her man, why would I date bruhs? Hell, when my brother got married to his white woman, my parents asked me if I would marry a white man!!! I said I would marry a white man... Only if he were rich, like "Bill Gates" rich, 'cuz why date a poor one when there are enuf strugglin' bruhs out there that need lovin' too? My folx thought I was crazy... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

But I cain't help myself to some nice, deep, dark, smooth, caramel, cream-filling, truffle tastin' chocolate... Don't let the smooth taste fool yah! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

[AKA2D '91]

WHOAH!