Hazing is good

[Gaspard]

I was hazed while pledging. I have alumni come by from the 1940's saying the same thing was done to them. Hazing brings people together by putting them through hardships. Quit your bitching, it's a rite of passage since men's and women's groups have started. A few people being stupid about it throwing people off bridges and dropping off people in the snow without clothes have ruined it for everyone.

[Billy Optimist]

Mr. Hammel, will you please close this thread?

[OTW]

It's people like Gaspard that contribute to the negative stereotypes plaguing the Greeks today. "Putting people through hardships" is ridiculous! Personally, I feel that orgs. like yours, Gaspard, ruin it for everyone. It's the bad apples that usually ruin the reputations of many GLOs that promote brother/sisterhood without the hazing.

Again, as Billy said--this thread needs to be closed!

------------------
*I'm an Alpha Gam...Yes I am, Yes I am!*

[USFSDTAlum]

I do have to say that while I don't agree with the point he's making, it is his opinion that hazing is an acceptable behavior. And as long as he can substaniate his opinion without reducing to lies, name calling, and other ill needed behaviors I don't think we should close the thread simply because we don't agree with his P.O.V.
Why don't we try to educate him and (rationaly and calmly) show him why hazing does not work, and why it never did.

[Billy Optimist]

I doubt that the person who posted this is even in a glo. It sounds like some kind of anti-greek fanatic that have been known to come here from time to time. I smell a rat. I'm asking again, Please close this thread.

[James]

I believe that we need to stop closing threads because we don't agree with a point of view (as USFstudent said also).

1. Its a freedom of speech infringement. The man is entitled to his opinion and is not being inflammatory.

2. We should not shut out dissenting view points because it leaves us ignorant of opposing views.

3. On the level that the gentleman is making these statements he is NOT incorrect.

[Allie_XO]

Not to get into semantics, but I don't think this is a matter of freedom of speech. This is a private message board. If this were the government coming in and demanding it closed - that would be a violation. And since no one is paying to be here & this being privatly owned - I think (but could be wrong) that anything can get closed down at anytime for any reason.

That being said, I was in a high school sorority and I was hazed horribly. I could never be friendly with the mean girls because I kept thinking about how much fun they had watching me suffer. There is a great rift between hazing and bonding. For instance, we are required to memorize our Symphony. Is that hazing??? No, it didn't cause any emotional hurt or embarrasment. However, we all studied for it together and worked together. We bonded without any of the negative things you are talking about. I vowed that if I was told that I had to do something that I didn't want to, that I would get up and walk out. Well, I am still here! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

It is a fact that being Greek IS NOT about abuse. It is not about having power of others. If anyone joined a GLO for that reason, then they should leave the org. and seek therapy! Being Greek is about sister/brotherhood. It is about fraternity (that is the reason we are called a fraternity)! Being Greek is about having a common bond with people that non-Greeks have difficulty understanding - having a mutual respect and a great deal of love for all Greeks, and a very very close bond to the people in your own GLO. I think every Greek here will agree that the bond is unlike anything else. And this bond has nothing to do with hazing.

We go through enough hardships in life without hazing. I don't need sister to create hardships for me - I just need them to be there to get me through those hardships. That is how we bond.

Allie

[Billy Optimist]

James, my reson for asking this to be closed was because theese types of threads ususlly turn into just flames.

[MaguireTheHustler]

Billy Optimist>> If you don't like the thread you don't have to post on it. It's just that simple. You're starting to sound like a fanatic or someone who has a problem with the greek system. Maybe you were one of those guys who couldn't take the heat from pledging and quit???

Kappa Alpha Psi
Nu Iota Spr. 97

[soror6]

Originally posted by Bobby Earl:

I am sure you will get plenty of support from that thread. The world is FULL of skaters http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif ....
[This message has been edited by Bobby Earl (edited February 09, 2001).]


...Heard That! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif Now I will go, before I get to showin' my age http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif
Bobby, as usual, your quick wit has me ROTFL!

Soror6

[33girl]

Pledging is good. Hazing is not good.

They are two different things. Pledging operates on love and respect. Hazing operates on power tripping and fear.

Pledging strengthens an organization. Hazing weakens it.

[DeltAlum]

There's no First Amendment issue here.

Hazing has been outlawed by every National Greek organization I'm aware of.

Hazing is against the law.

Hazing's time has long since past. There is no place for it in the Greek community.

Nobody should put up with it.

As Billy said, this could be some kind of setup.

DeltAlum

[RUgreek]

Personally, my opinion is that this guy is lying because nobody hazed back in the 1940's. In fact the greek system was so out of wack because of the war and stuff, pledging wasn't a required step in joining a fraternity. Hazing is too general of a term to be defined good or bad. Overall it is bad, no one can argue that. Instilling fear and suffering on another individual is not the goal of any fraternity or sorority. Try not to get so fired up and annoyed with these threads so easily guys...

RUgreek

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by Bobby Earl:
If you want the thread closed so bad than do this:

1). Don't click on HAZING IS GOOD.
2). Click on NEW TOPIC.
3). Then open a SKATING IS GOOD thread.

I am sure you will get plenty of support from that thread. The world is FULL of skaters http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif ....


LMAO!! BobbyEarl strikes again!! :-D

[Billy Optimist]

Maguire--
No, I am not anti-Greek. I really don't even consider myself to be anti-hazing. I just didn't want this to full of flames and every body just yelling at each other and calling names, instead of having an intellengent conversation.

[XX1]

I'll repost this here as it seems to me it fits.

"I have just a few comments on risk management/ hazing which, of course, you are free to consume/exhume as you desire.
1. I have to believe that Most GLOs were founded originally before most of us were born. (of course I'm only 34)

2. Our founders more than likely found value in their association as friends and sought to strengthen that bond with an organization.

3. They probably put together a very meaningful and solemn ceremony for the initiation of new members.

4. They probably DID NOT include beatings or torment of the soon to be members in their programs.

5. The ceremony and "pledgeship" was probably based on a virtuous or noble precept.

And so it is very likely that if there is a Risk Management/hazing issue in your chapter, it is because somebody has not been properly educated in the history and real tradition of the organization. Tradition is NOT "what happened to me".

I have to guess that if we all truely live by our oaths, risk management issue will be a thing of the past.

Work hard, play hard, go greek or go home..."

[XX1]

and here is the follow-up...

"It just seems to me that we have a choice.
1. We can spend our time whining about all the people who put us down.
2. We can look within at what we can do to asure that they have no reason to put us down.

Folks very rarely bash the organizations that are busy doing good for the community. They have no reason to bash the groups focus on sound principles like scholarship, leadership, fellowship and service to others.

Our GLOs were founded on these principles and we can only prosper if we uphold them.

"it's not what you say, but what you do that people really listen to..."

"

[loviest95]

Being a member of a BGLO and I was HAZED--
What is hazing is it going and reading your big sister a bedtime story is it getting is it standing in "LINE"?

Well though it is consider such I would not change my LINE experiences for anything

[USFSDTAlum]

you know what i find funny. I find it funny that people are advertising about being hazed. let me tell you why, stating that you were hazed you are basically admitting 2 (and probably more) things
1) you would do anything to belong to a group that doesn't care about your well-being
and
2) you have no backbone to stand up for your convictions in how you feel you should be treated. in other words, go get some self confidence. if you need to belong to something that badly that you will allow yourself to get beated for it, you are a sad person and I PITY you.
Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about "hazing" where the actives 'kidnap' you and take you out to eat, or stuff like that. I am refering to real mental, physical, and pyscological abuse.

[watson]

What is hazing? In todays society making pledges do anything that actives aren't required to do is considered hazing. Its actually pretty simple, You only see the value in something when you have had to work to achieve it. If pledges simply went active they would have no respect for the house which they are members. Non-physically threatening requirements for activation, which some would consider hazing, are slowly slipping away. Brothers who slide through pledgeship can best be described as leeches, those who benefit from the fraternity without helping promote its greatness

[LexiKD]

I was never hazed so I cannot identify with Lil_G. But I always wondered if you could be initiated and try to change the chapter. You can love your organization and find out that you dislike your chapter, sometimes chapters become zealous about hazing. We have chapters on our campus that haze and try to cover it up, but eventually a New Member quits and spreads it all over campus and I always wonder why not try to change the behavior. Bad leadershp can ruin a chapter so, do you think it would be possible to change the hazing and by doing so helping the National Organization?
By the way I think any type of hazing is crazy and I don't think New Members have to earn their membership through hazing. I was never hazed and feel I deserve my membership beacuse I worked at achieving our organization's goals and standards for a new member.

[loviest95]

What is Depledging???

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by loviest95:
What is Depledging???

quiting an organization during the pledge period...



------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[gphi2k]

I think that Billy Optimist was right. This
Gaspard, who ever he is, opens a controversial thread and then disappears. You'd think if he had such strong convictions that he decided to open a thread on the subject, he'd at least attempt to support what he's saying and rebut other peoples' posts. I've never seen that profile name in any other forum. It's just some s**t disturber who is out to cause problems. If I'm wrong Gaspard, please feel free to do me and every one else who has posted responses to your thread the pleasure of responding to your critics.
And for those of you who got pleasure out of being hazed, no child who was a victim to abuse by their parents is going to claim (at least I hope not) that it made them stronger adults and more bonded to and respectful of their parents. My sisters are my family. I see it as the same thing.

Leslie

------------------
Gamma Phi Beta
University of Toronto
Alpha Alpha

[Billy Optimist]

doesn't Gaspard mean something in French?


------------------
Once in every lifetime, you'll know what life is. Oh I need you, you need me, oh my darling, don't you see? The Young Ones. Darling we're The Young Ones. The Young Ones. Shouldn't be afraid! To live. To love. There's a song to be sung. 'Cause we may not be The Young Ones for very long!!!

[gphi2k]

I think you're thinking of Gaspe, which is a place in northern Quebec.
I'm going to look it up and get back to you. I studied french for 10 years (the fun of being Canadian!) and never heard the word....either way, he's a fraud.

[Billy Optimist]

Oh. Okay thanks. Maybe it just reminds me of the word b@st@rd.

[gphi2k]

Originally posted by Billy Optimist:
Oh. Okay thanks. Maybe it just reminds me of the word b@st@rd.

LOL
I was going to write back that you probably had the word mistaken for b*s*ard. Perhaps he's from the gaspe. That way the name is a nice combo. I did look it up tho. No such word. At least in french anyway. Either way, we know he's not very strong in his beliefs seeing as how he hasn't made one attempt to support them. My guess, he's a columnist from somewhere who is trying to find out how rampant hazing still is.
Don't fall into the trap. Because ultimately, this guy is out there to cause trouble. Don't feed into it. And certainly refrain from admitting that you subjected yourself to abuse at the hands of your 'brothers' or 'sisters', for your sake and for ours.

Leslie


[This message has been edited by gphi2k (edited February 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by gphi2k (edited February 14, 2001).]

[Tom Earp]

Do you really know the results of hazing gaspard? I was watching the 10:00 news Tues. nite in bed and the news station I watch had the opening item and went on and on about the SAE chapter at Rockhurst U. In K.C. They were kicked off of campus. I wrote a scathing E-M to the station about how all bad Greek News I Front Page and all of the good we do is not reported or relegated to the back.!!!! I was pissed!! The news editor sent me an E-M back saying they had a staff meeting and agreed with me about the length of spot. I do not condone hazing at all and one of thier pledges was placed in the hospital. I am a LXA and we have a no hazing policy and I like it that way as when I started the local 35 years ago that was my policy! What the punishment is that while not all may have been in on the hazing, they all suffer as they are off campus and the charter has been pulled. They cannot come back on campus for 3 years. Does that change your mind!! I hope so!!

------------------
Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[Billy Optimist]

I know I've heard that word before. I'll look it up. It sounds French though. At least to me. LOL, oh well.

[N2]

I agree with Gaspard. Most of you all have NO idea what REAL Brotherhood is or can be. You cannot take complete strangers and make he best lifelong friendships in 8-10 weeks without calculated induced stress. Look at the people that have gone to war together, they have some of the strongest bonds there are in life. Someone earlier, in another thread suggested that the Brotherhood in their chapter was like a marriage. I agree, its what I am accustomed too. Brotherhood in my chapter is just like that. It's a life long bond that takes precedent too everything else you do in life. My wife married me, but she also married my Fraternity. My Fraternity Brothers are now her brother-in-laws. It was a condition of our relationship. If your brotherhood is not this deep, then you have NO idea what we are talking about. You cannot explain the ocean to someone who has never seen it.

[gphi2k]

Originally posted by N2:
I agree with Gaspard. Most of you all have NO idea what REAL Brotherhood is or can be. You cannot take complete strangers and make he best lifelong friendships in 8-10 weeks without calculated induced stress. Look at the people that have gone to war together, they have some of the strongest bonds there are in life.

Please, tell me you are JOKING!!! Cause if you're trying to tell me that you think joining a group of men you call brothers, you call friends, is a bond that is only formed by the stress enduced practice of hazing then I say you are a complete masochist. You compare it to war?!? To people who have been in compat and fought for their lives?? COMMON!!! People go to war to fight for a cause. Their bond is formed in their attempt to achieve this cause. The don't go to war to form bonds. It's a bi-product of their common goal. You are comparing the importance of having men in a fraternity accept you as their brother to fighting for your country? You're quite the patriot. If it takes war like conditions to bring you closer to your 'brothers', then you are a masochist. If that's what it takes to gain YOUR committment and whole hearted brotherhood, then you don't know what REAL brotherhood is really all about.

Leslie


------------------
Gamma Phi Beta
University of Toronto
Alpha Alpha

[This message has been edited by gphi2k (edited February 15, 2001).]

[gphi2k]

Originally posted by Billy Optimist:
I know I've heard that word before. I'll look it up. It sounds French though. At least to me. LOL, oh well.

Okay Billy Optimist, I finally got our answer. I checked out Gaspard's icq profile (cause he has his number listed in his profile). He's a 19 year old guy whose name is Dustin Gaspard. So it's just his last name. That's all. He's probably some neophyte who is trying to justify the fact he put himself through hell to join his frat. Kinda like, if he says it enough, he may actually make himself believe it.

Leslie



------------------
Gamma Phi Beta
University of Toronto
Alpha Alpha

[Billy Optimist]

gphi2k-

Thank you so much. I've been going through lots of dictionaries and nothing came up. I guess that explains it though. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Anyway, he still hasn't been back.

[N2]

"Their bond is formed in their attempt to achieve this cause."

That is my point exactly! A heightened level of Brotherhood is created during the struggle. Many of the methods that my chapter uses have roots in the military, however I am not comparing it with going to war. It is a parallel, cause and effect. While war has a very different struggle, it is my contention that it is the struggle that creates those bonds. Not happy face meetings that stink of political correctness. Many GLO's cannot even call it pledging anymore. We have never, in over 30 years (in my chapter), harmed a pledge. We have never had any physical abuse. We have never had any alcohol present during any educational activity. Everything that we do to or with a pledge class has a lesson. Yes, during my pledge period there were times when I though the world was ending. Every time we thought we hit bottom, we would be taken a little deeper. Deeper than any of us thought we would or could ever go. When it was over, it was not down that we were going, but deeper into a Brotherhood that few will ever know.

Do you have any secrets from your brothers? Answer truthfully. I do not. Brotherhood is where I can go to have any wound healed. It is a very special place, not like any other I have been too. Certainly it is the reason that I feel so strongly about my Brothers, my Chapter, and my chosen way of Life.

I do not degrade you fro the way your chapter chooses to operate. My point here is that some GLO's are still doing it the way its always been and doing so successfully. I also realize that there are those that will say that we should not exist anymore if we cannot conform to there ways. If we did conform, we would not exist.

[OTW]

Originally posted by N2:
You cannot take complete strangers and make he best lifelong friendships in 8-10 weeks without calculated induced stress.

And going to college isn't enough stress?

I've made lifelong friendships even outside of my sorority. And I have lifelong sisters and didn't have to go through "calculated induced stress". My sisters and I are proof that IT CAN HAPPEN...so N2, I don't know how your statement could possibly be true!



------------------
*I'm an Alpha Gam...Yes I am, Yes I am!*

[gphi2k]

Originally posted by N2:

We have never, in over 30 years (in my chapter), harmed a pledge. Yes, during my pledge period there were times when I though the world was ending. Every time we thought we hit bottom, we would be taken a little deeper. Deeper than any of us thought we would or could ever go. When it was over, it was not down that we were going, but deeper into a Brotherhood that few will ever know.
If we did conform, we would not exist.

All I can say to that is, wow, I'm jealous. I wish I could have gone to hell to form the close bonds I formed without having to go to hell. I wish I had taken your route. It sounds so much more rewarding. (please, not extreme sarcasm in EVERY word).

Leslie

[soror6]

Originally posted by Billy Optimist:
Oh. Okay thanks. Maybe it just reminds me of the word b@st@rd.

You so craaaaazy....LMAO! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

soror6

[Allie_XO]

I've said this before, but I want to say it again. I agree that people bond through hardship. However, life is hard as it is. I bond with my sisters when they help me through the hard times - not if they create the hard times.

Allie

[shadokat]

N2 is obviously a bit delusional. If I had to marry a boyfriend's fraternity, I think I'd not like that too much LOL. I wouldn't expect him to marry my sorority, that's for sure.

N2, if you can provide one instance of hazing that take you into these awful depths of hell and can show me the benefit, I may believe you, but up until now, you've proven nothing except that low self-esteem will allow you to let people do whatever they like to you until they allow you into their group.

[Asia2000]

I didn't read all the posts, I admit, but I noticed the mention of "lack of hazing" = "lack of hardship" = "lack of bonding"

However, just because you're not being hazed doesn't mean that the time you spend earning your letters isn't VERY difficult and challenging . . .

[DM]

If you don't believe in hazing that's fine. It's a personal decision and I respect that. But if you haven't been through it then keep your mouth shut because you don't know what your talking about. You people who go on and on about how bad it is say that because of the very fact that you haven't been through it. When you go through so much $hit with a group of guys the bond that you share is something that could never be explained, only felt. So don't act like you know what you're talking about or what those of us that have been through it feel. You don't have a clue.

[OTW]

Originally posted by DM:
If you don't believe in hazing that's fine. It's a personal decision and I respect that. But if you haven't been through it then keep your mouth shut because you don't know what your talking about. You people who go on and on about how bad it is say that because of the very fact that you haven't been through it. So don't act like you know what you're talking about or what those of us that have been through it feel. You don't have a clue.

DM, you fail to realize that many of those on this board who oppose hazing were once hazed themselves. Take me, for example. I pledged a local sorority on my campus that forced me to be submissive to them at all times on and off campus; who humiliated me time and time again. And what was that for? It was for nothing! They simply did it because it was "tradition". Needless to say, I depledged and it was one of the best decisions of my life. I don't think I'm a weak person because I left. I was a better person for standing up to those tw@ts. Heck, my own MOTHER never treated me that way...and what gives them the right to do so?

I decided to give Greek Life another chance with AGD--they never hazed me nor did they force me to prove how much I wanted to be a part of their group. Yes the bonds of friendship are there--and what makes you think they're any different from your organization? Do you think that yours are better because you were hazed? Riiiiight.

So I guess you can say that I do know how it feels like to be hazed. I'm just sorry that I let it get that far. My experiences are what formed my opinions...so yes, I do have a clue! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif

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*I'm an Alpha Gam...Yes I am, Yes I am!*

[prettypoodle6]

for those of us that think hazing is okay -we will continue to do so.... and those of us who think its wrong, we will not.

we can argue back and forth till we run out of server space, but the point is people will do what they want!

PrettyPoodle6
"The 6th Descendant of Eos"
*no-skating allowed*

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http://www.iun.edu/~sgr/sghrostickfigs.gif Rhoyal Blue and Gold...I LOVE my SGRho!


[This message has been edited by prettypoodle6 (edited February 20, 2001).]

[DeltAlum]

For those of you who think hazing is OK:

Which part of "ILLEGAL" don't you understand?

What is difficult about the concept of "LOSE YOUR CHARTER?"

How is the term "LIABILITY" unclear to you?

Of the "DEATHS" attributed to hazing, which one benefited brother/sisterhood?

And for DM, stop and think for a minute. Do you really believe that we alums (I pledged during the 60's) weren't hazed and don't understand what it means? Do you think that we haven't seen this issue from both sides? Don't you suppose that some of us have had military training or played varsity sports?

If hazing isn't past tense in your national or chapter you're on the road to extinction. The rest of us don't want to join you there.

DeltAlum

[shadokat]

AXPAlum--

We were always told that if sisters and new members were doing activities together, then it isn't hazing. The activities should be things that brothers or sisters would be willing to do as well. Just a thought http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif


Originally posted by AXPAlum:
Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I last posted, and this topic just caught my eye..

To say hazing is good or bad overall is a real hard one to answer. I don't know about all the different types of hazing going on out there, and I am not an expert on this subject. I can say one thing for sure - if you or someone you know is in a dangerous pledge program, do whatever you can to stop it. I've never been one to say a good old scavenger hunt or camping trip was hazing, but that always included the brotherhood. Maybe that's where the definition becomes "hazy" Is it against the law if the brothers and pledges are involved in the activities together? I mean if it's a big brother - little brother football game, which I have done myself, we never called it hazing.

Well, no one hear is going to convince everyone that hazing is good or bad, so just take some friendly advice. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Don't do anything you are not comfortable with, and graduate on time. Take care, later.

- AXP Alum

[KSIGTAZ]

N2
You wrote the same bs in the topic:Anti-hazing has Gone Out of Control. Since you didn't read my last response I'll put here again for you.

I am not going to questions your loyalty or dedication to your fraternity. It does some like your questioning the loyalty and dedication of many others. Am I going to enter your world full of fuzzy pc bullshit? Maybe. I am disgusted by your short sightedness. I might be wrong but this is what I read from that posting.

You were big on athletics and 'Winning is everything, losing is nothing" I personally idn't want to join a cookie cutter fraternity. I guess their intelligence, background, who they are, and what they can contribute means nothing at all. Hell as long as they can throw a football, catch a pass, rush them all.

You would die for your brothers and they are now your wifes bother in laws. Yet many of your pledge brothers youy have not seen in years. Words are cheap what are you excuses for not seeing these "brothers" you have this "special" bond none of us can understand. Don't give me that crap they moved away or maybe they are to busy. Excuses are like a$$holes everyone has one. My brothers and I didn't have be taken to the "edge". I still get together with my pledge brothers on a regular basis and yes I am an alumn.

If your part of a national fraternity why don't you take a look at your mission statement. Do you know what a mission statement is? Does it tell you to haze or take your pledges to the edge. I doubt it.
Maybe your following the mistakes of those before you and are not inteligent or creative enough to promote brotherhood in other ways.

You must go to the ocean to smell it. "Try to explain to someone to who has never seen it. It cannot be done." Your right it cannot be done by someone like you. Your to short sighted, don't have the imagination, or to interested in playing catch to understand it can be done.

I don't share the level your accustome to, I surpass it and everyday I strive to improve upon that.

You didn't respond last time and I doubt you will respond this time.

[AXPAlum]

Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I last posted, and this topic just caught my eye..

To say hazing is good or bad overall is a real hard one to answer. I don't know about all the different types of hazing going on out there, and I am not an expert on this subject. I can say one thing for sure - if you or someone you know is in a dangerous pledge program, do whatever you can to stop it. I've never been one to say a good old scavenger hunt or camping trip was hazing, but that always included the brotherhood. Maybe that's where the definition becomes "hazy" Is it against the law if the brothers and pledges are involved in the activities together? I mean if it's a big brother - little brother football game, which I have done myself, we never called it hazing.

Well, no one hear is going to convince everyone that hazing is good or bad, so just take some friendly advice. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Don't do anything you are not comfortable with, and graduate on time. Take care, later.

- AXP Alum

[N2]

KSIGTAZ,

Winning is everything. They spent enormous amounts of money too erect scoreboards.
If it does not matter who wins, why keep the score. I’m not limiting it to the field either.
While you are at work, home, your credit report, your 401k, GPA, or the level of your education. It is all a score and it’s competitive. Winning is a habit! So is loosing. My statement goes to the attitude we are striving to recruit. My Fraternity is not for everyone, probably not for most and never will be. As I said in a previous post, my chapter places many hours in the decision even to issue a bid. We spend 3-4 hours a night for a week in committee and then 12-16 hours in lockdown on the final day until the decisions are made. Generally, we bid 25 to 40% of those requesting. We operate in an open system. My chapter could not exist in a closed bidding system. I believe that the closed bidding system limits the natural selection of the perspectives’ as well as the chapters. I understand the purpose of it, I just do not agree with it. It is similar to affirmative action.

As too seeing my Brothers, I did not say pledge Brothers, I said “I would die for my Brothers still today, many of whom I have not seen in years.” I stand by this. Since I pledged there have been 397 brothers. I do not see them all every year. I do see most of the actives from my undergrad years, every year. Our alumni do not just walk away into the sunset. They mentor the new Brothers during their undergraduate career and support the pledges during their “education”. Being a Brother in my chapter is a lifelong commitment. Since 1986, NO brother of my chapter has had to withdraw from college purely for financial reasons. Our alumni will never again allow an undergrad Brother to fall by the wayside. Today, we have 17 Brothers in tuition repayment and 2 actives on tuition subsidy. To this day, I still turn to my mentors for advice and guidance. Yes, there are those who fail to live up to the expectations and they are dealt with harshly. Even in a traditional family there are black sheep. If you fail too trim the fat, you get lazy and sloppy. The scoreboard is still running.

No, I do not believe that you can explain the ocean to someone who has never seen it. It is just an analogy. I cannot completely explain my experiences and expectations of brotherhood to you or anyone else. Brotherhood in my chapter is more than a word. It has to become part of your soul. My chapter over the years has been very successful in maintaining the standards that the Alumni demand. A large part of the success is due the mentoring programs that were instituted prior to my pledge period. The vision of my chapter fathers has proven to be crystal. One of my duties is to evaluate the pledge period. After initiation, I sit down with every new Brother and discuss his impressions, views, lessons, and experiences. Then I meet them as a group and discuss their newfound view of Brotherhood. I mentioned in another post that they all shed tears when recalling their pledge period and I got blasted from someone for making a pledge cry. They are tears of joy, Brotherhood and love, not of fear. We have changed some of the things we do over the years, but not much. If a tactic does not produce the desired response then we alter or change it. Everything we do during our pledge period is scripted for purpose. A new Brother is not allowed to take part in “education” of pledges his first term as a active. He simply observes. The second time he is allowed to participate, but not Lead and must have a senior Brother with him at all times. Only certain Brothers may Lead, they earn the title and must maintain it. No “education” may take place without a Lead. This accountability and mentoring is what stabilizes my chapter. I see wild swings in other chapters on my college’s campus. Their personalities over the years swings the full scale and sometimes returns. Others never have. The personality of my chapter slides very little.
You said, “I don't share the level your accustomed to, I surpass it and everyday I strive to improve upon that.”
I agree that we don’t share the same level of Brotherhood. We probably don’t even share the same definition of “Brotherhood” and that’s fine. I don’t degrade you for your beliefs and if you truly strive to improve it, then I congratulate you.
I have but one life to live, one life to give, and one score to keep.

[Monique]

I have to agree with pretty poodle on this one. If you want to get hazed, you will get hazed. If you don't won't to, You won't. It's as simple as 123. YOU ARE THE MASTER OF YOUR DESTINY.

[BaCarDi]

The worst thing about this board is all the lying that goes on. Yes, it is against all fraternities and sororities bylaws to haze, but lets face it, it happens. I joined a fraternity and im glad the way our pledging program was designed because like someone stated, it brought our whole pledge class together. We lost a few, but if they couldnt handle it because they were weak, im glad we found that out before they got in because i dont want just any scumb weakling in my fraternity. And i know now ur gonna say "ur a loser for wanting to belong to them and therefore put up with pledging"...well NO!!! I knew them before pleding and i liked the brothers that i knew. If pledging didnt exist anybody would half-heartedly join a fraternity or sorority without even wanting to be in it. After my class was done...we werent humiliated or anything, we were proud and WE knew that we wanted to be a part of this brotherhood and THEY did as well. Nothing in life comes easy and if it does, it's not worth much...remember that.

[DeltAlum]

BaCarDi,

Are you talking about pledging or hazing?

There's a huge difference. Pledging is a process we all go/went through.

Hazing is not just against fraternity/sorority rules -- it's against the law.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by DeltAlum:
BaCarDi,

Are you talking about pledging or hazing?

There's a huge difference. Pledging is a process we all go/went through.

Hazing is not just against fraternity/sorority rules -- it's against the law.



I don't think its any coincidence that BaCarDi just registered the day of this post and has made no other posts. Seems we may have another infiltrator in our midst.

[N2]

amycat412,

I suppose then that the first day you posted here you were an infiltrator?

DeltAlum,

If the Delt is "Delta Chi", then you still have at least one chapter that subscribes to the hazing belief. I am not a Delta Chi. But I am very close to the DC reps on my Alumni IFC and we have compared some "notes" on pledge education.

I would put the Brotherhood of any chapter that has a defined and purposeful education program up against say, a LCA, who does not even use the word "pledge". Now that is just a club with Greek letters.

BaCarDi,

As usual, you get what you pay for. A very wise man once told me, "Don't ever be afraid to buy the very best. You will always be happy with it."

[DeltAlum]

N2,

"Delt" is Delta Tau Delta. And I suspect we have some backward chapters somewhere who still haze. When we find them, we close them down.

DeltAlum

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by N2:
I would put the Brotherhood of any chapter that has a defined and purposeful education program up against say, a LCA, who does not even use the word "pledge". Now that is just a club with Greek letters.


I have to disagree here. First, I'm sure you could find at least one, and probably several more, chapter of ANY fraternity that is just "a club with Greek letters." And secondly, just because we don't feel like breaking the law to "bring our brothers together" doesn't make us a club with Greek letters. You can't just walk into one of our chapter meetings, sign your name and be a brother. You have to be selected by the brothers. You have to go through the AM period, and you have to go through ritual. And big deal if we don't use the word pledge. It was gotten rid of because of the negative connotation people like you give it, so you can thank yourself for LCA getting rid of the word pledge. People like you ruined it.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by N2:
amycat412,

I suppose then that the first day you posted here you were an infiltrator?



No, but I posted positive messages not negative ones promoting stereotypes the NPC/NIC/NPHC have been working towards changing as poster BaCarDi has. All I ask is that people be respectful of the forum and community in which they post.

BaCarDi is right about one thing-- Nothing good comes easy. And IMHO, hazing is the actives taking the easy way out. Fostering respect and love and friendship, fostering a FRATERNITY amongst members, that is what is hard work.

[This message has been edited by amycat412 (edited March 14, 2001).]

[mgdzkm433]

these threads make me laugh, basically because hazing is becoming more and more a hush hush thing due to risk management and hazing education throughout the country.

The reason I laugh is because it's only a matter of time before the chapters that haze get caught and are either brought up on charges--because it IS illegal, or their charter is taken away.

It's pretty sad when people feel they have to resort to illegal activity to have 'fun'.

[BaCarDi]

You guys can say whatever u want, but i know that i have more respect for someone who went through something and worked hard for it rather than just was given his letters. And by NO means do we at any time endanger our pledges or touch them, but they do have to put an effort and work hard to become a brother. If they cant handle it, we have other fraternities that will take them whose pledge program is much easier and suited for their weakness.

[N2]

BaCarDi,

Glad to see someone else here trying to keep a Brotherly perspective on things.

[AlphaXiGirl]

I always find it so interesting that the people that want to brag about how strong their brotherhood/sisterhood is because of hazing and how their membership means so much more to them because they were hazed are never proud enough of their letters to tell us the name of their organization.

Those advocates of hazing tend to talk about the strong versus the weak... I contend that it takes a much stronger chapter to not give in to the temptation to haze and a much stronger new member to stand up against those that attempt to haze.

But then again, I wasn't hazed so I must not know the TRUE value of Greek Membership.

[This message has been edited by AlphaXiGirl (edited April 12, 2001).]

[mccoyred]

Well, this is a PUBLIC forum. If members admitted that their org hazed then they would be 'puttin their bizness out there' and could face repercussions (sp?) since many national officers are regulars on this board. It is called 'discretion'.

If they are indeed doing something illegal and/or against their orgs national policy, it WILL come to light. If they identify themselves and their chapter as hazers, it's like someone walking into the police station and admitting having committed a crime; they KNOW they will be arrested.

Think!


Originally posted by AlphaXiGirl:
I always find it so interesting that the people that want to brag about how strong their brotherhood/sisterhood is because of hazing and how their membership means so much more to them because they were hazed are never proud enough of their letters to tell us the name of their organization.

Those advocates of hazing tend to talk about the strong versus the weak... I contend that it takes a much stronger chapter to not give in to the temptation to haze and a much stronger new member to stand up against those that attempt to haze.

But then again, I wasn't hazed so I must not know the TRUE value of Greek Membership.

[This message has been edited by AlphaXiGirl (edited April 12, 2001).]



------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[gammazetagrl]

I wasn't hazed in any way during my pledge period--like some other posts I've read, the bigs always asked us whether we felt comfortable doing something and to speak up if we didn't. we were also guided by 'parents' (i luv my pledge mom, she's the best)who advised us about requirements and led us every step of the way. i've heard very credible "hazing" stories straight from its sources from other chapters (although their nationals forbid it of course)...Many times I've had a friend pledge XYZ and knock on my dorm room at the wee hours of morning looking tired and is just seeking a friend to support him and encourage him to keep on. I mean, I could only say, "i cannot speak for you...if you feel that this is such unnecessary stress physically and emotionally, then quit. it's up to you to decide but whatever you choose i'll always be here for you"... and when i go visit XYZ's house or attend a function of theirs, i do notice that they seem to have a strong bond between the actives and pledges, although a stronger bond between members of the same pledge class. So i guess hazing DOES create a sense of unity in a way but i dont agree to it to the point where they endanger lives or humiliate someone to a great extent....I mean i wasn't hazed at all and we have the same strong ties in our organization. I guess you really can't change a chapter's practices if that's what they have been doing for years and if they're unwilling to do it, then they won't.

PS: some hazing examples that I've been told: something to do w/ goldfish (eep), 48 hours of sleep deprivation, physical activities such as a "long gym class" w/ jumping jacks, push ups, etc.

[DeltAlum]

Two more chapters have been closed due to hazing. DKE at Washington and TKE at Ohio State.

In the DKE case, this happened while the chapter, university and national are facing wrongful death litigation for a suicide which was allegedly caused by a "hell week" type of initiation.

Chapters that haze lose charters.

Its against the law.

Still.

DeltAlum

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by DeltAlum:
Two more chapters have been closed due to hazing. DKE at Washington and TKE at Ohio State.

In the DKE case, this happened while the chapter, university and national are facing wrongful death litigation for a suicide which was allegedly caused by a "hell week" type of initiation.

Chapters that haze lose charters.

Its against the law.

Still.

DeltAlum


Not that I'm looking to start anything, but I would like to enter in an opinion with respect to what's legal, against the law, or right. Just because something is against the law, it doesn't mean that it's wrong or right. Don't forget it wasn't that long ago that students were fighting for civil rights, which wasn't legal for everyone. I don't think all hazing is right, but at the same time, not all of it is wrong. There is a fine line between what should and should not be allowed. Yes, I do feel that events that lead to wrongful deaths of pledges are something to check out, but I refuse to believe that absolute complete hazing is wrong. Hell, the government doesn't even follow its own rules with the military, what kind of example is that setting for the rest of us ?

Honestly, there are a million other things out there and people break laws all the time. It's difficult to set standards for something like hazing, but there needs to be a better solution than just saying "you can't do anything." Look how well it's working already, do you really think just saying it's illegal is enough of a deterrent? It's time to start thinking of better ways to stop the bad hazing while teaching young americans about the risks and dangers involved with drinking and senseless violence.

And one more thing, what the heck happened to the naked olympics at princeton? I loved reading the stories about them each year, but it's been quiet recently.... Later!

RUgreek

[DeltAlum]

Yup.

There are lots of dumb laws/rules. And I was in college in the 60's and remember the Civil Rights struggle as well as the anti war movement very clearly.

But that doesn't change the fact that, right now -- in this place and time, if your chapter is caught hazing -- you'll lose your charter.

Unless you can change the law and/or the rules. And some probably need to be changed. It's not going to happen, though, as long as people keep getting killed or beaten -- and as long as the litigation and liability issues remain.

DeltAlum

[Tom Earp]

Delta Alum, very well stated! In this sphere of time live by the rules or get punished! But the problem is, that in these situations, all Greeks get punished! It is never just a certain Frqthernity/Soroity in trouble it is the whole of Greekdom! If one does, then we must all do! That is the perspective to the uneducated out in the world of DAH!

------------------
Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[AlphaSigLana]

My sorority doesn't haze, but we new members must show respect to the elders. We do this by: giving up our space on the couch if there is no room and we sit on the floor. We stand for alumnae. We show our support for our house through simple gestures. I'm sure we do more, but they aren't coming to me right now. Any way the elders in the house have earned it and they are the ones who have kept our house running. This year I will be a sophomre in the house so the new girls will be giving up their seats. I believe we earn privelages being in a sorority is a privelage not a right. The elders keep us in the house by showing how much they care for the house and that includes not hazing us. If girls were hazed chances are many would deactivate and ASA wouldn't exist on my campus. Simple non abusive hazing is ok- i.e making the new girls pick up the mess after spring formal so the seniors wouldn't have to. I think that is okay.
I have met fraternity members who were hazed and said it gave them more respect for their fraternity. SO maybe guys are different, but I know I couldn't put up with be abused.

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by AXPAlum:
I don't see any harm in what your chapter is doing either, but surprise surprise, those activities are classified as hazing. The only difference is that you are describing what new members do when they enter the sorority, not what pledges do. So I guess on that note, no one could get in trouble, right?

It's still hazing. When they become members instead of pledging, hazing doesn't magically disappear. Things like that are against LXA policy because it creates separation of classes. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, just saying it isn't any less against the rules once they become members. It's just like hazing isn't limited to greeks. It happens in sports, military, clubs, and even high school. At my high school, after Dazed and confused came out, they started doing that stuff to the incoming freshmen. I'm not sure what they do now, but I know my cousin snuck home after the last day of school so he wouldn't "get it" Luckily, he lives accross the road from the school.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[AXPAlum]

Originally posted by AlphaSigLana:
My sorority doesn't haze, but we new members must show respect to the elders. We do this by: giving up our space on the couch if there is no room and we sit on the floor. We stand for alumnae. We show our support for our house through simple gestures. I'm sure we do more, but they aren't coming to me right now. Any way the elders in the house have earned it and they are the ones who have kept our house running. This year I will be a sophomre in the house so the new girls will be giving up their seats. I believe we earn privelages being in a sorority is a privelage not a right. The elders keep us in the house by showing how much they care for the house and that includes not hazing us. If girls were hazed chances are many would deactivate and ASA wouldn't exist on my campus. Simple non abusive hazing is ok- i.e making the new girls pick up the mess after spring formal so the seniors wouldn't have to. I think that is okay.
I have met fraternity members who were hazed and said it gave them more respect for their fraternity. SO maybe guys are different, but I know I couldn't put up with be abused.

I don't see any harm in what your chapter is doing either, but surprise surprise, those activities are classified as hazing. The only difference is that you are describing what new members do when they enter the sorority, not what pledges do. So I guess on that note, no one could get in trouble, right?

[clubmaneternal]

Two years ago I would have strenuously disagreed with the "hazing is good" sentiment; now, however, I'm beginning to have second thoughts. As a brother in the Pi Kappa Alpha chapter at Princeton University, I'm thoroughly aware of the strict prohibitions set on hazing by most international Greek organizations. During our fall rush this past year, we chose to emphasize this policy with our prospective rushees and ended up with the sorriest bunch of pledges I've ever encountered. On my campus, at least, it seems as though the best male Greek prospects WANT to be hazed--they want those hardships precisely because enduring them becomes a badge of honor and a source for rueful and hilarious "Remember whens...". I'm certain that explanation of hazing policies to potential pledges will be the crucial issue in planning our chapter's strategy for this coming fall's rush; I'm not so certain of how we'll resolve it. My own experience has been that a rushee who wants blanket assurance that he will not be hazed or otherwise f***ed with is not truly committed to making ANY of the sacrifices necessary to complete a successful pledgeship. I wish that weren't the case at Princeton, but it is.

Comments or questions are welcome.

Andrew Martin, Princeton '02

{Artimis: Edited single word for content}

[This message has been edited by Artimis (edited August 06, 2001).]

[Tom Earp]

I would like to know what you mean by how you haze? If is than you sir give me another as in swating or do mean by making the rushees learn about the International and local history, or make them do study time, or what? Please enlighten the rest of us!
If they have to swill so much alcohol then please inform us, or have to go out and do dangerous things then please inform us!
I for one would like to know if you do all of the abusive things then woe be you, if not then the best to your house!

------------------
Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[N2]

Lil_G,

Because I am not free to discuss the issues that I have here in public. The anonymity allows the free (or somewhat freely) open discussion. The public discussion of anything that my chapter does in our pledge period is strictly prohibited. The bottom line is the fact that you want to know my e-mail address. What possible reason could you, or anyone else, have to know that?

I have no desire to have a private conversation with anyone outside of my Brothers on the subjet of this board. The risk is simply too large.

[N2]

Andrew,

You are correct. You can search this site for my previous post to place my comments in context. My chapter is at a mid-sized private university. Our pledge period is virtually unchanged in 30+ years. Our reputation on campus is that our pledge period is a "bitch", and it is. Of course its behind closed doors now, but the word gets out each and every year. We do nothing to dispute the rumors, by design, while admitting nothing. The result is that those who are looking for a free ride don't even bother to get involved. The line to get in our door is always fairly long. We usually only pledge 40% or so of those requesting bids. The bottom line is that by allowing the rumors to persist and the fact that it is known the we are very selective, we attract the very best.

[Mariposa13]

On my campus, our sorority is not the biggest nor most popular, but is viewed as one of the most secretive, with the tightest closed doors. We don't reveal any part of our ritual to anyone. We also have a national no-hazing policy, and are both the first and the loudest to say it. We are proud of our traditions, which have remained the same since the start of our sorority. We are also proud that WE DON'T HAZE. we don't feel that it is necessary, nor right. You can and should have a brotherly/sisterly bond by sharing ritual, the most special part of your GLO. Ritual should be the bond that brings your pledges/new members/members/alum together again and again. When I pledged, if anyone had asked to to do anything that I didn't like, or tried to tell me hazing was ok, I would have dropped right then. As an Alumnae, I still feel the same way. I won't try to tell those who believe hazing is ok that they are wrong. I would just say that I am sorry. I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy the bonds of brotherhood/sisterhood without resorting to something as degrading, harmful (not necessarily physically) and sad, as hazing.

[Brandeis]

to whomever thinks that hazing is bad. Shut up! It's people like you that are going to cry and whine about every hardship that comes your way. Don't you realize that hazing is what separates the gdis from the greeks?! You have to go through the appropriate rites and traditions, like everyone else before you. In addition, to get something good, one must go through some difficulties- otherwise everyone would be doing it! And don't even attempt to compare slavery and hazing. nuff said

[DeltAlum]

Brandeis,

Hazing is illegal. It is against the rules of every National Greek organization we're aware of.

Taken to extremes, it has killed people.

And, by the way, on this forum, we try to show some amount of respect to our fellow posters whether we agree with them or not. Just as I'm sure you would not care to be told to "shut up," neither do we.

"Nuff said."

DeltAlum

[mccoyred]

Hardships (ie pledging) can be endured w/o hazing. They are not the same!

Originally posted by Brandeis:
to whomever thinks that hazing is bad. Shut up! It's people like you that are going to cry and whine about every hardship that comes your way. Don't you realize that hazing is what separates the gdis from the greeks?! You have to go through the appropriate rites and traditions, like everyone else before you. In addition, to get something good, one must go through some difficulties- otherwise everyone would be doing it! And don't even attempt to compare slavery and hazing. nuff said



------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[TxGirl]

N2

As you are blessed with anonimity (sp?) on this site, tell us what your organization does that is considered hazing, but is an essential part of your brotherhood. You go on and on about how great and strong it makes your chapter but you don't say what it is.

As I don't recall see your chapter name or university and you have said your email is not listed, why don't you just tell us what you do?

[SigmaChiCard]

I don't condone, or agree with it
But I can attest to Physcological Manipulation experiments, and various experiments in general behavioral physchology that Hazing establishes a cognitively dissonant belief that the final goal is so much greater than it otherwise would have been due entirely to the act of hazing. It's not the getting beaten part, or does it even have to be anything physical, as long as getting through it is VERY VERY difficult.

Very basic examples are
you get a brand new car for free or
you save your money working for 5 years to get one not as good

which one do you take better care of....the one you bought, because you convince yourself it's better because you just really put yourself out a lot to even get it, and even if before you knew it wasn't better, that perspective shifts and you now believe the one you bought was better.....the theory of cognitive dissonance as it backs the validity of his statement.

However, hazing also demoralizes basic principles concerning my founding, and I imagine the founding of most all other fraternities/sororities. It cannot create true brotherhood because no one can want to see there brother in agony so much that he will put him there himself. It creates this strong brotherhood, but as the theory of CD implies, it creates it on false pretenses. You convince yourself you and your brothers are tight, because if you're not...then why the hell did you endure the pain. A startling reality before your eyes! This isn't me talking, so don't take it too personal, it's the theory of cognitive dissonance against you hazers and hazees. So quit beating people..this isn't eye fr an eye...it's your brothers! would you hit your real brother or father to make him respect you more? hehe, probably not!

Cory

[Christi130]

To all you people who are against hazing, I can say that I see your points. But honestly, I pledged last semester and was hazed. every sorority and fraternity on our campus hazes hard and are proud of that fact. The only fraternity that doesn't haze their "new members" are a joke on campus. go anywhere and you'll see their letters written on bathroom walls or elevators with the words fake or sucks after them. What I'm trying to say is that they have zero respect. You can't just start your own fraternity and have people join or being Greek would not be special. What's so great about it if anyone with money could "join". that to me is buying your friends. I am proud of the fat that I pledged hard. You cannot possibly know how close I am to my pledge sisters. They are my best friends and now that I am watching the current pledge class from this side, I realize why everything was done to me... to build the bonds between the girls and their pledge sisters. You people keep saying that hazing puts distance between pledges and members. This is not accurate at all. I love every one of my sisters, the only thing pledging did was make me rely on my pledge sisters for strength during pledging. I know what it means to be a sister. Without the pledging you are simply joing a club in which anyone with extra cash could get into. My sorority believes in quality, not quantity in girls. My whole point is that pledging creates a bond between sisters or brothers that no one can understand unless they themselves have went through it.

[damasa]

Originally posted by Christi130
My whole point is that pledging creates a bond between sisters or brothers that no one can understand unless they themselves have went through it.

Exactly...so in a sense..your post is a contradtiction. Pledging is what forms a bond between the brothers and sisters of the pledge class. In some cases, hazing might help, in others, it might hurt. No one can really tell of the true affects of hazing, some ppl would take being hazed differently.

About the comment of not knowing how close you are to your pledge sisters, I'd have to disagree. I know, I'm probably that close with some of the guys that I pledged with. They are my "boys." But, I also am just as close with many of the other members, so it goes hand in hand.

d

[SigmaChiCard]

Christi
If hazing is the reason you're so close with your sisters, then your ritual must be really lacking. You do, however, illustrate my point very clearly. Hazing creates a dissonance that makes you think you really deserve it and its great because you got hazed. haha. Tricks on you! You now feel that everyone should be hazed to bond. I'm sorry for what is evidently you're entire campus, that your chapter participation in ritual does not do that for you. It may prove that you might wish to reevaluate your ethics. Would you haze your best friend in high school to get closer to her? That'd be a bit strange, wouldn't it.

And not to insult your intelligence (entirely), but let me see if I'm getting this point of yours correct. Because some orgs don't haze, anyone with money can get in, yet if your hazed, only the best of the best get in? Is this so? So, the people who let themselves be hazed, and take your shit for the first full semester in school which is when more than ever they need to be learning and growing are the ones who are going to go out and be productive members of society and for your GLO. And it's the (speaking generally) meat heads who love/don't mind getting hazed, so that's what GLO's eventually fill with, and creates the stereotypes we've got, add perpetuates them....you are truly blind.

My thoughts are scattered now, I will try to reply less frustrated later, but to end...

Hazing is about creating friendships on psychologically-inspired false pretenses. I'd say think about that, but you're predispositioned against it already. haha. I'm sorry.

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/rough/twak.gif

[shadokat]

To comment on Christi's post, our campus was just like that, except I was in the one sorority that didn't haze. And let me tell you something....money had nothing to do with our membership. We took quality women who wanted to belong to a quality organization and support our ideals.

You say because you were hazed, you're so much closer to your pledge sisters. Well, being 5 years out of school, I can tell you that I still talk to my pledge sisters at least once a week via email or the phone. We have semi-annual get togethers at the beach or something, and that didn't come because someone hazed us. It came because we all support and believe in our ritual and ideals. Many sororities on my campus believed in earning letters. We believed in the same....just via learning about the values and traditions, the ritual and ideals, that go with being a sister, and living your life by those ideas each day.

Finally, while we were going through our new member program, we were asked to do many things, but one that was most important was respect for sisters, ourselves and our letters. Hazing doesn't respect new members...it forces them to bond together to survive a period of time, and it also binds them in a resentment towards those who hazed them. I've seen it firsthand through friends who pledged hazing sororities, and it's truly a shame. I'm glad my sisterhood bonds came through respect, love and ritual. THAT'S what brother/sisterhood is all about.

[archangel689]

Except you have the people like myself who respect themselves to much to be hazed...

[TEKEISSTRONG]

LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON MYSELF.

I AM A COMBAT VET (DESERT STORM - 1ST RANGER BATTALLION) WHO USED HIS GI BILL BENEFITS TO GO TO SCHOOL AT A MID-ATLANTIC STATE UNIVERSITY.

I PLEDGED TKE - AND I WAS UNDERWHELMED BY THE EXPERIENCE. I FELT THAT THE PLEDGE PROGRAM NEEDED REFINING TO STRENGTHEN THE TYPE OF MEN WE NEEDED.

I BECAME PLEDGEMASTER (HEGEMON) AND IMMEDIATELY INSTITUTED MORE MILITARY TECHNIQUES IN THE PLEDGE PROGRAM. OUR PLEDGES GET VERY LITTLE SLEEP, ( 4 HOURS/NIGHT), MUST GREET EVERY FRATER THEY SEE, CARRY A BRICK WITH TKE PAINTED ON IT, MUST GET EVERY FRATER'S SIGNATURE 3 TIMES A WEEK, HAVE EARLY MORNING BONDING RUNS, AND ENDURE ZEBRA WEEK. ZEBRA IS ONE WEEK WHERE THE PLEDGES EAT ONE MRE A DAY, WHILE GETTING NO SLEEP. IT IS HARD. WE LOSE ABOUT 80% OF OUR RUSH EVERY SEMESTER, BUT WE EASILY GET THE HIGH NUMBERS TO RUSH US.

WE HAVE A REP MUCH LIKE THE ELITE FORCES WHOM I SERVED WITH IN THE MILITARY. WE ARE VERY SELECTIVE AND NEITHER CONFIRM OR DENY WHAT WE DO. WE HAVE THE "TEKE MYSTIQUE"

I GRADUATED WITH A 3.80 GPA IN JUST THREE YEARS, PURCHASED A SMALL BUSINESS AND HAVE GROWN IT INTO A MEDIUM SIZE BUSINESS WITH ABOUT 80 EMPLOYEES. I HAVE STAYED ON AT CHAPTER ADVISOR. WE HAVE KEPT THE PLEDGE PROGRAM HARD.

WE HAVE AN ATTORNEY ON RETAINER. HE COSTS OUR CHAPTER $400/SEMESTER. I MATCH THE CHAPTER CONTRIBUTION FOR THE ATTORNEY. HE HAS BEEN TO OUR ADMINISTRATION AND HAS POINTED OUT THAT MOST OF THE HAZING POLICIES VIOLATE THE FIRST AMENDMENT. AS A RESULT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TURNED THE OTHER WAY AS A RESULT OF WHAT WE DO.

OUR FRATERS KNOW THEIR RIGHTS. IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO THE FRATERNITY - THEY KNOW:

1. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING TO EVERYONE.
2. CALL THE ATTORNEY IMMEDIATELY. WE PAY THE MONEY, SO THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM.

WE HAVE HAD TWO INCIDENTS WITH THE POLICE THE PAST FIVE YEARS WITH HAZING INVESTIGATIONS - AND WE HAVE BEEN CLEARED BOTH TIMES - BECAUSE WE KNOW OUR RIGHTS. WE KEEP THE BROTHERHOOD SACRED.

PLEDGING A FRATERNITY SHOULD BE HARD. BUT EVERYONE OF THOSE WHO HAVE COMPLETED OUR PROGRAM WILL TELL YOU THEY ARE PROUD OF IT.

WHAT DOES A PLEDGE LEARN? THEY LEARN THAT THE HUMAN BODY CAN ENDURE A LOT MORE THAN THEY THINK THEY CAN. THEY ALSO KNOW THAT HARD WORK AND PERSEVERANCE IS REWARDED.

SO, IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A NON-HAZING GLO, THAT'S UP TO YOU. I PREFER EARNING LETTERS. SO, RESPECT US FOR WHAT WE HAVE EARNED.

TEKE IS STRONG

[shadokat]

Originally posted by TEKEISSTRONG

I BECAME PLEDGEMASTER (HEGEMON) AND IMMEDIATELY INSTITUTED MORE MILITARY TECHNIQUES IN THE PLEDGE PROGRAM. OUR PLEDGES GET VERY LITTLE SLEEP, ( 4 HOURS/NIGHT), MUST GREET EVERY FRATER THEY SEE, CARRY A BRICK WITH TKE PAINTED ON IT, MUST GET EVERY FRATER'S SIGNATURE 3 TIMES A WEEK, HAVE EARLY MORNING BONDING RUNS, AND ENDURE ZEBRA WEEK. ZEBRA IS ONE WEEK WHERE THE PLEDGES EAT ONE MRE A DAY, WHILE GETTING NO SLEEP. IT IS HARD. WE LOSE ABOUT 80% OF OUR RUSH EVERY SEMESTER, BUT WE EASILY GET THE HIGH NUMBERS TO RUSH US.

What do new members learn from getting very little sleep, carrying a brick around, and eating only one meal a day? :rolleyes: If you want them to bond in a constructive way, send them to a survival camp or a team building program.

And during all of this "boot camp", when do your new members learn what TKE is really all about? Your founding principle is "to aid college men in mental, moral, and social development.", as stated on your website? Also stated in your principles: "We believe that the essential elements of true brotherhood are love, charity, and esteem; love, that binds our hearts with the sturdy chords of fraternal affection; charity, that is impulsive to see virtues in a brother and slow to reprove his faults; esteem, that is respectful to the honest convictions of others and that refrains from treading upon that which is sacred to spirit and conscience;" When is this emphasized and learned? During the early morning bonding runs??

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but I truly believe you do TKE a disservice by airing your hazing in public, and saying it is what makes your chapter. And those of us who weren't hazed...we earned our letters and respect our tradition through love of sisterhood/brotherhood and living up to our ideals and ritual.

[The1calledTKE]

I agree with Shadokat. Most TKE chapters don't haze. The extent that your chapter goes is horrible. TKE is not the miliatry and you should not treat it as such. TKE is a social fraternity. Social is the main word. If you are about the miliatry you should let us all know your chapter name. I know you must have that miltary honor. If you think it is right to haze the way you do take it to internationals and the court and lets see who is right.

[GmuTeke]

TKEISSTRONG,

the first amendment reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

How are your school's anti-hazing rules in violation of this amendment? I don't mean to be angry here, and I really would like to hear this argument. I'm all for freedom of religion, speech, press and assembly, but did the Founders(of the country and of TKE) really want us to paddle our pledges and have that "right" guaranteed under the constitution?

[SigmaChiCard]

I'm going to go out on a limb and call TKEISSTRONG's bluff....he's not really a TKE

[ErikaXO]

I agree completely that hazing in the true sense of the word must not be perpetuated. However, I must say that a lot of great bonding-type activities and fun traditions have been eliminated in the name of anti-hazing. I think I mentioned a few on another thread, such as the fun Big Sis/Lil Sis scavenger hunt we used to have....nobody ever complained and it was a fun time for everyone.....nope, can't do that, "making" the pledges search all over (and pick up little notes and gifts from their big along the way) is hazing!!! As with so many other things, it has been taken to the extreme and ruined a lot of the special aspects of greek life. Please understand, I am not condoning true hazing, ie: scaring pledges, forcing them to do chores, etc, making them do embarrassing things such as walking around campus in goofy clothes, or otherwise hurting them. I am talking about perfectly inocuous things that have been wiped out (such as making a decorative paddle for your little to hang on her wall) because the implications might offend someone.

[justamom]

Late to the party, but ErikaXO I happen to agree with you 100%.
Too bad some just don't recognize when enough is enough-take it to another level leading to someone getting hurt. There was so much positive from many of the exercises, but the brutal, physical stuff, alcohol and activities interfering with grades spoiled it for everyone- including the pledges.

[SigmaChiCard]

Erika
I agree.
Hazing is bad.
Fun is Good.

Annoying people saying that fun things that pledges have to do constitute hazing....well these people suck.

[ErikaXO]

Thanks Mom and Sig.....you know the more I think about this the madder I get. It is another symptom of a greater problem.....the "taking it to the extreme" syndrome. Next thing you know, somebody is going to actually try and claim harrassment or "hazing" of some sort by their professor for MAKING them do a 30 page paper.....as a matter of fact my mother was an English professor at an area university and she had a student who habitually had "car trouble" whenever she had an assignment due and didn't show up with it. After two or three times of this my mom finally told the girl she wasn't going to accept her paper. Well this little b!*@# told my mom she'd be hearing from her daddy, and ran home and raised you-know-what. Next thing you know, daddy calls up and reams out the department head, who calls my mom in and tells her she HAS to accept the paper, and she can't take off at all for it being late. What total BS. It's all about taking personal responsibility. Of course we all know the girl was totally lying about her car trouble, she was just lazy and didn't do her work on time. But even if it had been true, ok fine maybe once or twice. But after that you take responsibility for the fact that you need to find a reliable mode of transportation to class, be it catching a ride with someone else, taking a bus, walking, or maybe even trading in the junk heap for a car that drives!!!! But nooooo, whine and cry about it enough and it'll be taken care of for you. What's she going to do when "car trouble" is keeping her from getting to work? Her boss isn't going to even TALK to Daddy, the boss is just going to fire her!!!!

It's no different in a lot of these greek situations. A lot of these hazing rules came down not so much because all of these things which have been banned are really hazing.....it is a matter of people trying to cover themselves in a litigation-crazed world. Take the case that occurred at Kent a while back. At an event that involved a number of chapters (I believe it may have been Greek Week Greek games) a bunch of guys from a fraternity were jumping into a mud pit for fun. One of the younger guys (he may have been a pledge) decided to join them and dove in headfirst....well he ended up landing wrong and broke his neck.....his parents ended up trying to sue the fraternity, the other fraternities and sororities "involved" (anyone who was at the event) AND the university. I'm pretty sure it got dropped (something about negligence on the part of the son who dove in completely of his own volition)

OK, you want to hear a REALLY bad one? Try the sorority member who was slowly killing herself with a severe eating disorder. Her sorority sisters were growing increasingly concerned for her life after numerous attempts to help her. Finally, in desperation, members of the chapter contacted her parents, who brought their daughter home and got her into treatment that saved her life. So imagine the chapter's astonishment when the parents filed a lawsuit on their daughter's behalf......the crux? The chapter violated their daughter's right to privacy by telling THEM about her eating disorder!!!!!!!! Ok, hello??? These people are saying that the chapter should have kept their mouths shut and let Calista Flockhart starve herself to death....and they'd have been OKAY with that? I can just see them at the funeral, weeping over her coffin. "Yes, our little girl is gone, but darn it she went with her right to privacy intact!!! God bless those Omega Mus for preserving her civil liberties!!!!" Um, NO! They'd have still been calling the firm to file suit, only it would have been gross negligence for not intervening!!!! My chapter has specific policies in place regarding situations like that now, in order to help the sister while covering themselves.

Sorry to ramble, but it just drives me crazy that things like this are allowed to go on. Everyone is always coming down on the evil greeks...(God knows we Chi Omegas have had some of the worst accusations made on us lately!!!) but nobody is expected to take any personal responsibility. If you don't like something, just call your parents and if they can't get you your way they'll call Uncle Ralph down at the firm.....what is this teaching people about real life? How are these kids, greek or otherwise, expected to be able to handle the pressures and inevitable discomforts of life on their own? If a fraternity member can't handle learning some history about his chapter and being expected to attend some pledge class bonding sessions with his brothers, how is he going to handle the stress of a real job? There are always "dues' to be paid in life.....by taking this whole hazing thing too far we are intimating that anything that you HAVE to do is bad, anything that makes you put out any effort is unfair, that everything comes easy. And as I said in my last post, it takes away a lot of the most special and enjoyable parts of the greek experience that set it apart from the GDI life.

(Oops....I tripped getting down off my soapbox.....anyone know a good lawyer???)

[TEKEISSTRONG]

I just want to let you all know that I posted a very long reply under the TKE board where I addressed this.

I am taking all of these comments in and am doing some soul-searching.

I won't rehash the long essay I wrote on the TKE board, but this has been a learning experience for me. (It's what I get for having a big mouth)

Lets just say that I'm doing some thinking, and I want to thank you for your input.

TEKE IS STRONG

[SigmaChiCard]

i like your brothers comment

hazing promotes brotherhood, like fucking promotes chastity

haha, that's great!

[SigkapAlumWSU]

1. Hazing is illegal. Period.
2. Who here thinks that the founders of their GLO wrote in hazing as a part of the original ritual? Not me.
3. I'm not going to argure with the people who think hazing is ok. It's like trying to convince someone their religion/faith is wrong. You believe what you want to/are taught.
4. Bottom line. If you haze, your charter will be pulled. Period.

No, I wasn't hazed. If I had been, I would have dropped my GLO. Simple as that. No degredation or wanting to belong is worth that. Eventually, there will be an end to the cylce. And it will be because someone brags a little too much about their "proud tradition" of hazing. And their Nationals will find out. Which will result in #4 above. Your charter will be pulled. Period.

[shadokat]

SirToad--

What do your new members learn from getting yelled at, sleep deprived and paddled about your brotherhood? I'd love to hear that, because I don't see anything constructive in those activities. If making them afraid and tired, thusly having them resent you and making that the bond that ties their new member class together is what you're looking for, I guess you succeed.

[TEKEISSTRONG]

I am listing this post, which BTW will be my last post here.
For a long period of time, I have been abusing the internet, and have been "Acting Out" on it.

Thanks to fraters of TKE, I have now come to the realization that my behaviors are wrong and am now in therapy to overcome my compulsive behavior on the internet.

I am not a chapter advisor for TKE, and have not been a vet in any war. This was made up because as my doctor says, "You did it for the thrill of it." Unhealthy behaviors like this are part of my disorder, which I am now seeking to correct, along with other destructive internet behavior.

I plead with anyone who reads this board to eliminate physical and mental abuse of any kind. I think that if you are asking if it is, that it is.

I also want to aplolgize for the remarks I made here concerning hazing - again it was all made up.

I have taken a big step in my recovery from my destructive behavior, I have admitted that my life is unmanagable because of my behaviors on the internet. It is a great weight off my shoulders.

I apologize to any one I may offended, and again, I plead with you that all GLO's, need to follow the advise of their fraternity and eliminate destructive behavior.

Certainly a social fraternity should be that, and not something to "die for."

Shawn A.

[Tom Earp]

Shawn, this site can be a very posotive place for you to be unless you are in screw you mode! As you have seen on this site, you have not only friends in the TEKES, but in all Fraternitys and Soroitys!


We are Greeks and if push comes to shove, we help our own! We take enuff heat from the outside world for stupid and mnoronic acts by the few, but againg we all take the brunt of it!

It is your decision of course to drop out of this site, but you may be making another mistake! Hang for a while and see what is in the air!

This may help you more than an over price pschyo ologist! We do not take money and we will work with you!:)

We all have problems at one time or another but give us a shot! I for one, if you get out of line will be happy to tell you along with a lot of other GChaters!;)

Fraternally Yours,