Abolishing Frat Houses!!!!

[Fred Hatchett]

I believe they should be abolished now. Hazing will never stop in Greek-letter organizations. The first death from hazing occurred 1838. 161 years later and it has not changed. Why? Becasue hazing is not a social matter. It's a spiritual matter. E-mail me, and I will give you my website.

[Artimis]

You claim the first death from hazing accured in the 1800's. Could you please post some supporting information.

And Hazing isn't a spiritual matter, Rather it is a crime of power, control and ignorance - just as rape is a crime of power and control rather than a crime of sex.

[This message has been edited by Artimis (edited November 20, 1999).]

[SilverTurtle]

Actually, if you look in the index of "Broken Pledges: the Deadly Rites of Hazing" (by Hank Nuwer), you can find an extensive list of hazing incidents...among rival classes, military groups, etc. along with Greeks.


You're right Artemis, it is a matter of control and power. Abolishing the Greek system doesn't eliminate hazing. Education and common sense eliminate hazing.

[Genoalan]

I think the topic is way off track. You talk of abolishing frat houses. What does the house have to do with hazing? Sure, the fact that some frats have big houses off-campus gives them the idea to conduct hazing privately. But, hazing has already expanded beyond that; I got some folks running around the city with heavy backpacks on a time requirement. Houses are now just another place for the brothers to get together. Even though my frat doesn't have an official house, we have mini-houses of apartments of brothers who choose to live together. We still hold meetings on-campus, but at least we always have a place for those after-parties.

[Wildgoose]

Fred,

I think you should really sit down and think about what you are saying. To "abolish" Fraternities and Sororities is clearly a knee-jerk and simplified answer to greater and more complicated problem. If you propose to abolish Fraternities because of hazing, than you must also want to abolish the military, sports teams, large corporations, etc.

Yes, over the last century there has been hazing and as a result, injuries and deaths. But does this represent the carelesness of individuals and individual houses, or an entire organization?

There have been many more injuries and deaths as a result of drunk driving accidents. Do you propose to eliminate cars? Or, do you think education is the way to prevent such careless and reckless behavior?

Before you go and attack the Greek system, think about what you are saying. Being so rash only makes you sound foolish.
www.followers.com (http://www.followers.com)

[JEFFtheBETA]

Dear Fred:
Oh yeah, sure, abolish fraternities and sorrorities. That will solve all the hazing problems. Wait a minute, what about all those high school kids who get hazed when they join sports teams? Their deaths don't count?
You might want to check your history too. Greeks didn't invent hazing. Testing one's loyalty or abilities or whatever prior to initiation into exclusive organizations was practiced centuries before this nation or any GLO's were even founded. Besides, even the U.S. military "hazes" its recruits and officer candidates. Does that mean that we should abolish the military too?
I don't condone hazing at all because hazing is forcing someone ot do something against their will as a condition of earning status or title. If a person has no objection to such treatment, then the act in question is not hazing. If a person has objections to such treatment, then it is that individual's responsibility to reevaluate whether or not that organization is one they truly want to join. Like many other things in life, GLO's are not for everybody, but hey are for some. Just because some people are not willing to accept the conditions of joining an exclusive organization, it does not mean that others should be denied the opportunity to try.

[KappaTTU]

Dear Fred,
You sound like the Boo Radley of your neighborhood! I attend a private baptist university, and we are not allowed to have Greek housing. It's good in the aspect that it promotes living with people in other sororities/fraternities. But, we have always felt that we were missing out. Baylor thinks that Greek housing would promote big alcohol bashes, and everything else that comes along with the stereotypical greek system.
Greek housing provides a meeting place for organizations to come together. It also prevents young girls from walking the streets late at night going from party to party in an unsafe neighborhood as they have to do here. My university is very beautiful, but located in a horrible part of town. To say that greeks sponsor hazing is a huge generalization. My national organization actually has workshops and seminars about the unfortunate topic of hazing. I agree with you that it is a horrible thing, yet the way to solve this is not to simply abolish organizations.
The way to solve it is through education. Thank you for your time, and good luck in your mission to discourage hazing from happening. I don't see you succeeding in abolishing the greek system. Too much money from alums of these organizations keeps our university's funded for new buildings and projects.

[theXgirl]

never mind--i saw the original post date of this message.

[This message has been edited by theXgirl (edited June 21, 2000).]

[virtuosity]

That's right! The Chi Omega members comitted their crime of ritualistic abuse, in the Chi Omega house and any organization that does anything harmful to others (such as what they did to that Becky girl) they need to be closed, as the Sigma Theta chapter of Chi Omega was closed.

[Q-T Pie]

virtuosity,
I don't believe the original post had anything to do with the XO chapter near me. Eventhough I was apart of of the other posts I do think they got too carried away & do not wish to see another one started.

In addition, it took us a long time to get rid of Fred Hatchett..please do not bring him back.

Thank You
Allison


------------------
A mistake at least proves that somebody stopped talking long enough to do something.
~ Anonymous

[This message has been edited by Q-T Pie (edited October 10, 2000).]

[LXAAlum]

If you follow Fred's argument logically, then we could also posit that Christianity should never have been allowed to become a true religion...new Christians were definitely hazed to an extent beyond which even modern Greeks could invent (anyone ever hear of the coliseum?). If hazing is defined as many people agree "subject to mental or physical harassment..." then Christians are surely hazed. True, they were persecuted, but endured this to "prove" their faith....isn't he using this same argument against us?

Fred also apparently believes in the fallacious Biblical interpretation that it is works that prove your worth to God (in order for us to be "true" men/women of God, we need to expose ALL of our ritual secrets)...sorry, but the last time I ready my Bible (NIV, KJV, NKJV) I believe it is "faith, not works..."

I am a Christian, please understand, but I had to include this to show the flawed logic Fred (and his many other aliases here) has put forward. He challenged me just yesterday to be a "real man of God" and expose my secrets. Yet he continues to show hypocrisy by hiding behind aliases....

Just my 2 cents and change (and a mustard's seed of faith) worth...

[Strongbeauty]

Originally posted by JEFFtheBETA
Dear Fred:
Oh yeah, sure, abolish fraternities and sorrorities. That will solve all the hazing problems. Wait a minute, what about all those high school kids who get hazed when they join sports teams? Their deaths don't count?
You might want to check your history too. Greeks didn't invent hazing. Testing one's loyalty or abilities or whatever prior to initiation into exclusive organizations was practiced centuries before this nation or any GLO's were even founded. Besides, even the U.S. military "hazes" its recruits and officer candidates. Does that mean that we should abolish the military too?
I don't condone hazing at all because hazing is forcing someone ot do something against their will as a condition of earning status or title. If a person has no objection to such treatment, then the act in question is not hazing. If a person has objections to such treatment, then it is that individual's responsibility to reevaluate whether or not that organization is one they truly want to join. Like many other things in life, GLO's are not for everybody, but hey are for some. Just because some people are not willing to accept the conditions of joining an exclusive organization, it does not mean that others should be denied the opportunity to try.

I get what you are saying about Greeks not inventing hazing,however I think we should be careful about talking about the military does and doesn't do and why or why not. My father retired from the military and served two tours in a war. I am sure he went through some hazing (he was in from the 1950s-1980s), but he was QUICK to correct someone who tried to relate it to Greek hazing. I don't condone hazing either way but let's be real about this. Now some of the stuff was silly, but his major compliant with Greeks trying to compare themselves (not saying that this is what you were doing but I have met Greeks who do this), to the military is that in the military you are being trained for life and death situations. If you slip up with information or don't know information, you can kill 10s of people within seconds. If you are not in shape, you may slow down your unit and cause someone to be seriously killed or injured... when is this going to happen in the civilian world? Greeks are not training people to survive in jungles or deserts, they are simply doing it just for the sake of tradition (in many cases). There is no life or death reasoning behind what Greeks are doing. If anyone feels that there is an has a supporting example, please share.

[audaz49]

Why did you feel the need to revive a nearly six-year old thread?

[Shamp311]

The amazing strongbeauty
should get a kick in the booty
for bringing Fred back out of bed.

[Tom Earp]

Why oh Why?:(

Please let it ride into the sunset.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Why oh Why?:(

Please let it ride into the sunset.

Done!