Why Haze!!

[satin]

If people KNOW that hazing is wrong, why is it still being done. I think that the simple fact of being hazed oneself causes them to take that out on the next. Future frats and sorors start to expect the things that are done during hazing. I've heard a girl actually say,"Yeah girl, they are going to beat my ass." (Name of the organization will stay unmentioned). When I heard this, it pissed me off that that was what she was looking forward to. Give some insight!!!

[Ghostface-Killah]

Dear Satin,
When it comes to hazing most people don't really speak their minds- Most say what they know the person in charge wants to hear. WHy do people haze when they know it is wrong? WELL!!!! because there are people still willing to be hazed!!!Well, because PLEDGING, not HAZING has a history. Well, because the process NPHC came up to to bring in new members seem a little dry at times- I won't deny that I have seen and heard things uncalled for but... It is up to the individual doing it and the one taking it.
I am not sure how familiar you are with the pledging process, but- ask around and you will find the answers. We need to come up with a common ground and agree of a new way to bring these new members. SOme argue that pleding was abolished because it was not working- well, obviously, MIP is not working either. This whole thing is diving us greek, now we have those who pledged (and worked for their letters according to them) and those who SIGNED. Nothing can be done to stop this.
People pledge knowing that it is "wrong" for the same reason people do drugs, and for the same reason Cops kill. I mean it is open to interpretation. Don't take me wrong hazing and pledging is not the same but, they are like mother and kid- One goes with the other.
I believe that pledging is going to continue. From what I hear pledging is a very unique experience, nothing can be compared to it and it is designed to 'make youa stronger person- TO EACH ITS OWN. I wish I could saymore, but- YOUNEVER KNOW WHO IS WATCHING!!!! HA HAHA!!!
Hope I snwer you question.
OH!!! WE ALL DEFINE HAZING IN DIFF> WAYS!!!!

[satin]

Ghostface,

Thanx for your insight on the matter. My next question to whomever would reply is.....Do you think that undergrad lines should be abolished all together. But that will make it bad for the organizations that don't HARD haze. There two oragnizations at my university that DO NOT " haze!!! So, that's pretty *@$#ed up for them!!

[LXAAlum]

Satin,

If I remember correctly, there are some national GLO's that have done away with a "new member" period altogether, and they initiated new members almost immediately.

This is interesting, because this is a move back to our "roots" - where fraternities traditionally initiated members almost immediately some years ago. Pledge periods really didn't start until just after World War 2 - and I think pledge periods were implemented due to the immense growth of chapters - it was the only way to manage growth. However, this "tradition" stuck with us until this day.


------------------
Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 17, 2000).]

[Melchisedic]

Wrong! Hazing began well before WWII. Read the history of kapsi, aphia, qpsiphi, and you will see it began well before then. Anyone in a BGLO to ever be angry at slavery would make you a hypocrite. Beating down your own folk!! You should be ashamed.

[IWANNABEASOROR]

Goodness is he on every post?

I have interest in a particular sorority, the one and only sorority anyone should want to join, but I dont think theyre hazers. From what Ive seen on campus only the, more manly sororities act like that. If I mistake you for a dude I expect you to be a hazer.

[pinkice9]

Originally posted by satin:
If people KNOW that hazing is wrong, why is it still being done. I think that the simple fact of being hazed oneself causes them to take that out on the next. Future frats and sorors start to expect the things that are done during hazing. I've heard a girl actually say,"Yeah girl, they are going to beat my ass." (Name of the organization will stay unmentioned). When I heard this, it pissed me off that that was what she was looking forward to. Give some insight!!!


This is totally off the question but is your log on name satin like Lucfer if so than may God bless you sweetie.

pinkice9

[ZetaAce]

I believe her name is Satin, like the cloth.

ZetaAce

[mgdzkm433]

satin = silky fabric. . .lots of prom dress are made from this, formals, wedding gowns, etc etc

satan=lucifer, ruler of hell, fallen angel

two totally different words.

[PositivelyAKA]

why haze, like GFK says because there are people who are willing to be hazed. Some believe being abused during their process makes them more real. For all those who believe beating, mental abuse, etc. makes you more real, i wish our ancestors who died in slavery could sit you down and explain to you how painful it is to see blacks abusing each other and in the name of uplifting the black community, do we need to be abused in order to prove our worth. No, to allow yourself to be abused by someone just to be down, is not my idea of wisdom. I do believe in a pledge process and it can be done effectively without being abusive to those on line. Those greeks who "hazed" stop treating your neo's like they are not worthy, when it is your own fault that they are not able legally to be pledged today. they look up to you and so many are seeing that what they thought was a step into sister/brotherhood is not that at all. Some of us go to church on Sunday and "praise God" but on Monday look down on the new members, talk about taking somebody's letters off, won't even speak to their own soror or frat, and act like they are some Greek Goddess/God, how UGLY is that. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif
If pledging makes you feel like a better man or woman so be it but i get my self esteem from the Lord, AKA won't get me to heaven. My founders didn't beat and degrade thier neo's they chose women whose morals, ethics and character would further benifit the sorority and the community they lived in. So don't look down or disrespect new members who choose to do things the way their national office has mandated. We are not gangs, so let 's not act like one.

SkeeeWeeee Sorors of AKA who epitomize what a true Lady is.

[hilton]

To mgdzkm433: I know that when people are talking about the "Devil" per se, they use Satan and Lucifer to be synonymous. This is partly inaccurate.

As someone who read Milton's Paradise Lost, Lucifer means 'full of light', and this was his "pre-fallen" name.
Satan was his "post-fallen" name.
So it is not totally accurate to say:
satan=lucifer (sorry to split hairs)

Hazing happens in sports teams too. I wonder why people feel this need to abuse others?
This topic was addressed on 20/20 Downtown or was it Nightline? last week.

[mgdzkm433]

Oh, I'm sorry I didn't clarify that. I was just relating the two because of the previous post. The one that thought satin as Lucifer. I should have clarified, but just wanted to get the point across.

[satin]

I mean satin as the smooth, beautiful fabric.

[Positive Kay]

This is funny!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif
This post went from why haze to if this person's name was evil!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Goodness!!!

------------------
Set your goal!! Strive!! Bask in your reward!!

Positive Kay

[pinkice9]

OK THANKS FOR CLEARING UP MY IGNORANCE

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
satin = silky fabric. . .lots of prom dress are made from this, formals, wedding gowns, etc etc

satan=lucifer, ruler of hell, fallen angel

two totally different words.

[ZChi4Life]

RUGreek--I'm feeling you, esp on that last part. Making someone partake in hazing "just becuz" is stupid! I was taught that everything that goes along w/ educating new members should have a point--a good one at that! Hazing for the hell of it is for those who have nothing else better to do w/ their time and to me, they don't respect themselves, the people they are bringing or their orgs. But that's just my opinion. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif But I do think that something is needed when bringing in new members. I mean, how boring would it be to just sit and simply learn about the sister/brotherhood however often. Wouldn't a fun activity make things so much better and enjoyable? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif I think learning by doing is an excellent way to instill things like sister/brotherhood, teamwork, discipline and other things when joining any type of group http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by satin:
If people KNOW that hazing is wrong, why is it still being done? ...Give some insight!!!

Does S&M mean anything to you? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Just kidding, why do people haze..hmm a very difficult sociological question. I think there are many reasons from "it's fun" to "we had it done to us, so you're gonna get it too" arguments. Hazing is supposed to show discipline and devotion to the higher authorities, in my opinion. I don't think it's right, and I certainly do not condone it, but this is the impression I get whenever people discuss the subject. Hazing has been around a long time now, maybe not as abusive and ridiculous, but it has a long history. When a person gets hazed and accepts the consequences or whatever that goes along with it, the Hazors (if I can make up such a term) believe that this person will honor and sacrifice for them. I believe it could be a positive tool, if not abused and turned into a meaningless torture device. To test a person's loyalty to an organization is a common trait everyone looks for in a member. Hazing is being done for the wrong reasons, but I think that it could be a respectable learning instrument.

Now, Why do people do the wrong hazing? Because they are pathetic assholes who can't seem to figure out that inflicting pain and harm on another is the most dangerous and stupid thing you could possibly do to someone. If hazing has no alternative purpose except to create unhappiness, it has no merits and is completely usless. I hope some of this makes sense, if not, please comment.

RUgreek

[LIGHT #3]

ZChi4Life:

I am apart of the father of fraternities and as you this is called MASONRY. I am going to tell it to like this, hazing is not what make your fraternity stronger of any kind. Us as a race of people think that this is right but it is totally wrong. Now I didn't say that I was against having some fun with folks, but you can have good CLEAN fun! You don't have to place your hands on anyone in a improper way at all. I think that alot of men of this page might want to read Psalms 133! And your founders wasn't hazed so why should you?

P.S. Keep the Lord first in all that you do!

[33girl]

isnt masonry a part of the devils work? I have also been hearing that many GLO's and BGLO'S are part of Freemasonry or order of the eastern stars? Is this true? Are their certian symbols to watch out for?? I am not a member of GLO but I am just curious because many people told me I would go to hell if I was to partake in one. I hope I dont offend anyone I just want some specific answers. Thanks

No.

[Drolefille]

isnt masonry a part of the devils work?
No. Some religious sects have issues with masonry, but they aren't doing "the devil's work"

I have also been hearing that many GLO's and BGLO'S are part of Freemasonry or order of the eastern stars?
Some GLOs have ties to masonry, as in their founders were Masons. Some members of different GLOs are Masons or OES. It's probably about the same as the general population percentage wise. No GLO is a part Freemasonry or OES, at least not as far as I've ever seen.

Are their certian symbols to watch out for??
Probably when people use the wrong version of "there/their/they're." Oh you meant to tell if they're masons? The organizations aren't. If you want to avoid actual people, you're on your own.

I am not a member of GLO but I am just curious because many people told me I would go to hell if I was to partake in one. I hope I dont offend anyone I just want some specific answers. Thanks
Some people are anti-GLO for religious reasons such as taking an oath, or claiming we worship pagan gods, or the devil or whatever. Only you can decide what's right for you, but I know many religious GLO members who have no problem with the values, ideals, exemplars, etc. of their GLO.

[Tom Earp]

In the days of Yore (Long Time ago) many more people were members of Free Masonary as there were not GLOs.

Many times the people who started these male GLOs were Masons.

I am sure that parts of those rituals were used in writing their rituals.

As a member of a GLO and a non praticing 32 Degree Mason, I can easily state there is no devil worship as Masonary has many things in their ritual beleiveing in God as we know him as do many GLOs.

Symbols are just that and have to do with their rituals.

I just wish you could see the LXA Ritual and see the meanings and how profound it is and the teachings that go along with them.

Masonary was a Brotherhood much the same way as GLOs are today.

They had like beleifes and worked with each other much the same way GLOs today do. Was it secret, of course it was as you had to be asked to join.

[cheerfulgreek]

If people KNOW that hazing is wrong, why is it still being done. I think that the simple fact of being hazed oneself causes them to take that out on the next. Future frats and sorors start to expect the things that are done during hazing. I've heard a girl actually say,"Yeah girl, they are going to beat my ass." (Name of the organization will stay unmentioned). When I heard this, it pissed me off that that was what she was looking forward to. Give some insight!!!
How many hazing threads are there going to be?! Post under an existing hazing thread! There's your "insight".

[Kevin]

Cheer -- the OP was over 7 years ago.

(just FYI)

[SWTXBelle]

I keep seeing "Why Hazel" when I sign on . . . .

[TSteven]

I keep seeing "Why Hazel" when I sign on . . . .

Why not. They do have good antiques. ;)

[SWTXBelle]

LOL - but that would be about all they have!

[TSteven]

LOL - but that would be about all they have!

Fireworks? Well, maybe "South of the Border".

[SWTXBelle]

OH - and Stateline Tack, which also has lots of concrete statues. (??!!)

[TSteven]

This is kind of like going down (641) memory lane. Just need a *cold one* and it would be complete.

[SWTXBelle]

Remember - SOUTH OF THE BORDER is your "last chance"!!!

[TSteven]

Depending on which way you are going.

[SWTXBelle]

But here's the funny thing - that's what it says ON BOTH SIDES OF THE SIGN.

[TSteven]

Maybe there is a deep philosophical meaning to that sign and we just don't know it. Nahhh. My guess is the painters were "just down the road" a bit, having a few, and then got mixed up as to which side to paint. So they did both sides. Now come to think of it, that just might be kind of philosophical on their part.

[SWTXBelle]

And of course everyone else thinks we have lost our minds. Much like the sign guys, I think. :cool:

[cheerfulgreek]

Cheer -- the OP was over 7 years ago.

(just FYI)
:eek::o Sorry.

[MysticCat]

And of course everyone else thinks we have lost our minds. Much like the sign guys, I think. :cool:Pedro thinks you have lost your minds. ;)

For your South of the Border fix, check this (http://www.larryweaver.com/funnysongs/lyrics/southoftheborder.asp) out.

[SWTXBelle]

Ah, but the South of the Border we are talking about isn't NEARLY as classy as the one in S.C. . . . . :cool:
Find a song about Hazel, KY, and the drinks are on me!

[ΑΓΔSquirrelGirl]

Ah, but the South of the Border we are talking about isn't NEARLY as classy as the one in S.C. . . . . :cool:
Find a song about Hazel, KY, and the drinks are on me!

Hahahahahaha.

Sorry. We stopped at the S.C. one on a church trip...it was...uh...interesting.

[MysticCat]

Ah, but the South of the Border we are talking about isn't NEARLY as classy as the one in S.C. . . . . :cool:
Find a song about Hazel, KY, and the drinks are on me!Oh, I don't know that one! Do I want to?

[SWTXBelle]

After the S.O.T.B. in S.C., the one outside Hazel wouldn't impress you at all, MysticCat! But should you be in the area, I'd be happy to spend the 30 seconds it would take to tour you through downtown Hazel. (!!!)

[MysticCat]

After the S.O.T.B. in S.C., the one outside Hazel wouldn't impress you at all, MysticCat! But should you be in the area, I'd be happy to spend the 30 seconds it would take to tour you through downtown Hazel. (!!!)I want to take a road trip!!

[TSteven]

30 seconds? You must be including South Hazel, Tennessee in that tour as well.

After your grand tour, y'all can head "Down South" to Puryear for your beverages. Some of the best road houses ever! Or so I've heard. :cool:

Welcome to Hazel, Kentucky (http://www.hazelky.com/)

[SWTXBelle]

I'm actually impressed they have a website!

[TSteven]

If you *Goggle* Hazel (which I believe is not legal to do in at least six states) there are quite a few sites listed.

Hazel, Kentucky Antique Shopping District (http://hazel-kentucky.com/)

[SWTXBelle]

. . .and the sign coming from Murray now says "First Chance". TSteven - Girls Gone Wild night is Dec.7 at the Spider Web in Puryear - mark your calendar now!

[PhiGam]

My chapter doesnt haze but I can certainly understand that there are benefits to it.
Certain things like scavenger hunts and team exercises bond the pledge class.
The bad stuff tests dedication.
As long as it doesn't get out of control (which it does a lot) then I can understand it.

[Tom Earp]

My chapter doesnt haze but I can certainly understand that there are benefits to it.
Certain things like scavenger hunts and team exercises bond the pledge class.
The bad stuff tests dedication.
As long as it doesn't get out of control (which it does a lot) then I can understand it.


You are correct in the point if it doesn't get out of hand and many times it does.

It is past history why so many things ate on the hazing list and a no no!

Most will think of paddleing, drinking of liquor or even water, physical exercise, dumping liquids or food on people.

It seems to have been done before, and that is why it is banned by GLOs, Colleges, and States and against the Law in many States and more to come.

Plain and simple.

[TSteven]

. . .and the sign coming from Murray now says "First Chance". TSteven - Girls Gone Wild night is Dec.7 at the Spider Web in Puryear - mark your calendar now!

Dang. I've got plans for that night.

I wonder how "wild" is wild? Word gets around quickly in that area. Heck, I often hear about "things" and I'm not even in the area. And the Good Lord knows I can't always be trusted to keep a good rumor to myself.

[tebows jorts]

Any good chapter hazes, safely, and gets away with it

[FrattyVegas]

HAZE = Happily Advancing Zealous Education.
I don't think you will find a fraternity in the world, whether they admit it or not, that follows guidelines outlining the strict literal definition of hazing. Hell even having pledges wear Pledge Pins can be construed as hazing. In point of fact, when you want 20 strangers to bond closely in a short period of time its almost imperative to place them under undue stress. Only then will you see leaders emerge and those pledges/new members will build stronger bonds with each other. It may be an antiquated thought but certain forms of hazing do in fact build character. There is also stupid, pointless, and utterly degrading or even dangerous forms of hazing that are totally detrimental to the process of building new brothers or sisters.

[jon1856]

Any good chapter hazes, safely, and gets away with it
As a new member and first time poster, you really should read the rest of the threads in RM before posting again.

Kind of hard and difficult to be a good chapter and haze these days; for any number of reasons.

All of which have been covered many times in many thread here.

[bowsandtoes]

I can't think of a half-way decent chapter here (at Texas) that doesn't haze.

[jon1856]

I can't think of a half-way decent chapter here (at Texas) that doesn't haze.
As we have discovered in countless threads:
There does not seem to be, anywhere, a consensus of what hazing is.
So one has to follow their own moral compass, as well as the rules, regulations, policies of their school, group, as well as area municipalities.

And we have seen what happens when one gets caught.
Is it worth it??
Is losing a life worth it?
Your house?

And being that this is only your third posting in GC and all are in RM, perhaps you need to take time to read where you are posting.

[bowsandtoes]

I've read most of the big threads on the first page and it seems there are two parties, one that sees the benefits of hazing and one that sees it as the end of the world.

Our school administration has been adamantly anti-hazing but the big chapters still do it because they know how crucial it is to a chapter's continued survival and success.

And by hazing, I mean a combination of putting someone in a physical/mental stressful situation (ie. lineups), and forcing pledges to adhere to a set of standards (a dress code, working on builds, cleaning the house/apartments, giving rides, etc.)

[Drolefille]

I've read most of the big threads on the first page and it seems there are two parties, one that sees the benefits of hazing and one that sees it as the end of the world.

Our school administration has been adamantly anti-hazing but the big chapters still do it because they know how crucial it is to a chapter's continued survival and success.

And by hazing, I mean a combination of putting someone in a physical/mental stressful situation (ie. lineups), and forcing pledges to adhere to a set of standards (a dress code, working on builds, cleaning the house/apartments, giving rides, etc.)
Third point of view: There's a lot of stuff marked now as "hazing" that really shouldn't be, but it is because certain individuals or chapters have taken it to the extreme and people have gotten hurt and/or killed. Because of that the rules have changed, AND we should follow the rules and values of our national organizations.

I also don't think hazing is necessary or crucial and there are other ways to build bonds between members. Even if the hazing rules limit some of the beneficial things that chapters can do, there are plenty of other things that can be done.

[jon1856]

Third point of view: There's a lot of stuff marked now as "hazing" that really shouldn't be, but it is because certain individuals or chapters have taken it to the extreme and people have gotten hurt and/or killed. Because of that the rules have changed, AND we should follow the rules and values of our national organizations.

I also don't think hazing is necessary or crucial and there are other ways to build bonds between members. Even if the hazing rules limit some of the beneficial things that chapters can do, there are plenty of other things that can be done.
Very well written and said.

[jon1856]

I've read most of the big threads on the first page and it seems there are two parties, one that sees the benefits of hazing and one that sees it as the end of the world.

Our school administration has been adamantly anti-hazing but the big chapters still do it because they know how crucial it is to a chapter's continued survival and success.

And by hazing, I mean a combination of putting someone in a physical/mental stressful situation (ie. lineups), and forcing pledges to adhere to a set of standards (a dress code, working on builds, cleaning the house/apartments, giving rides, etc.)
Just have to wonder now how your definitions as well as what you report as "on going" activities at UT match up with any of the following laws, regulations and results in TX:
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/events/downloads/HazingMemorandum.pdf
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/gle/downloads/Hazing-DailyTexan-Summer05.pdf
http://www.stophazing.org/laws/tx_law.htm

[LXAAlum]

HAZE = Happily Advancing Zealous Education.
In point of fact, when you want 20 strangers to bond closely in a short period of time its almost imperative to place them under undue stress. Only then will you see leaders emerge and those pledges/new members will build stronger bonds with each other.

Seriously? I guess the CU chapter of Delta Chi should be commended for this, then:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/feb/20/fraternity-pledges-arrested-for-damage/ (http://http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/feb/20/fraternity-pledges-arrested-for-damage/)

http://http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0219081frat1.html

And that was only 10 pledges - imagine the "bonding" that could have occured with 20?

[SEC_Rowdiez]

So am I supposed to sit around in a circle with a bunch of guys I dont know and play name games?

Or we supposed to go through extreme hardships together and learn to work as a team to make it through to the end.

You have to earn your way, just like you have to earn your way onto a football team, basketball team, etc.
I wonder how good the teams would be if you just let anyone on it? No, you have to cut the guys that cant do the pushups, running, hitting, etc.
Same with fraternities

[PhiGam]

So am I supposed to sit around in a circle with a bunch of guys I dont know and play name games?

Or we supposed to go through extreme hardships together and learn to work as a team to make it through to the end.

You have to earn your way, just like you have to earn your way onto a football team, basketball team, etc.
I wonder how good the teams would be if you just let anyone on it? No, you have to cut the guys that cant do the pushups, running, hitting, etc.
Same with fraternities
Cmon man, no specifics on a public forum. We know that everything is voluntary but still. None of our chapters ever haze, you know that.

[RaggedyAnn]

My husband is part of a nonhazing chapter of TKE. He has been out of school for 15 years and is still tight with his brothers. We had a dozen of his brothers at our wedding and we take vacations together 3 times a year. Trust me, this is a chapter that does things right, has awesome alumni communication and gets money from their alum when they need it. He actually gets a newsletter that is around 8 pages 2-3 times a year.
You don't need to haze to have a strong brotherhood or sisterhood.

[SEC_Rowdiez]

i was talking about joining a football team....

my chapter doesnt haze anyways

[LXAAlum]

I wonder how good the teams would be if you just let anyone on it? No, you have to cut the guys that cant do the pushups, running, hitting, etc.
Same with fraternities

Last I checked, fraternities did not have physical standards like the military does, nor should they not allow members with disabilities (your quote seems to indicate otherwise)...

If it's so important to you that you have to cut those that can't measure up, are your "brothers" "men" enough to advertise your hazing regimen? "Rush (GLO name here)! We'll beat the crap out of you!"

[cheerfulgreek]

Hazing is wrong. Period. What seriously forces people to accept inhuman and degrading rituals in order to belong to an organization? I don't think the punishment for hazing is severe enough. Those who are caught hazing, get off way too easily unless they lose civil suits, and even then it's the parents who do the paying. The system of hazing still has not been changed. I think in order to change it, and put an end to it, stiffer penalties have to be imposed when someone dies or is injured. I think hazers need to be sent to minimum security prisons where they would have to take mandatory courses in some kind of behavior control.

[sasquatch]

Hazing is wrong. Period. What seriously forces people to accept inhuman and degrading rituals in order to belong to an organization? I don't think the punishment for hazing is severe enough. Those who are caught hazing, get off way too easily unless they lose civil suits, and even then it's the parents who do the paying. The system of hazing still has not been changed. I think in order to change it, and put an end to it, stiffer penalties have to be imposed when someone dies or is injured. I think hazers need to be sent to minimum security prisons where they would have to take mandatory courses in some kind of behavior control.

The problem is that "hazing" is so vague. It's a joke. "Hazing" can be practiced without degrading anyone or putting them in any danger. All this has already been mentioned, but based on your post I'm not sure if you read it. It's not a black and white issue. "But it's illegal blah blah". To that I say, "do you drink? are you 21? do you ever speed?". To that you might say, "but hazing is more dangerous"...well not necessarily. We could go on forever with this issue. There is no definitive answer.

[VandalSquirrel]

In the case of certain groups/systems, if these people need to be made into better individuals (through hazing methods per each org.) why are they getting bids in the first place? I wouldn't write a rec or bid a woman who didn't meet our standards, and what happens in the new member period and throughout membership should be polishing of qualities that already exist.

If I remember right, BigRedBeta said of men given bids by his chapter "we look for men who are Betas or hold Beta qualities, and may not know it" and I think that's an excellent way to find quality people and not deal with risk management or the university bringing sanctions.

[cheerfulgreek]

The problem is that "hazing" is so vague. It's a joke. "Hazing" can be practiced without degrading anyone or putting them in any danger. All this has already been mentioned, but based on your post I'm not sure if you read it. It's not a black and white issue. "But it's illegal blah blah". To that I say, "do you drink? are you 21? do you ever speed?". To that you might say, "but hazing is more dangerous"...well not necessarily. We could go on forever with this issue. There is no definitive answer.
I read some of it. I'm not sure if I repeated another post or not. I was just posting my opinion on the whole issue.
It's not a black and white issue?:confused: Uhmm, yes it is a black and white issue, and no it is not a joke. Hazing actually is an extraordinary activity, and when it happens too often, then it becomes perversely ordinary, and for those individuals who engage in it, grow desensitized to its inhumanity. We already know hazing can lead to death, and serious injury, as it has done every year since the 70s. It leads to death and serious injury when rituals bring out members innate propensity for violence. Also violent, aggressive members who act out toward pledges use them as scapegoats through which to vent their own frustrations. Now, binge drinking has become ritualistic in many universities. I think houses need to be more heavily supervised by responsible adults.

[MysticCat]

It's not a black and white issue?:confused: Uhmm, yes it is a black and white issue, and no it is not a joke.No, it's not that black and white. The problem is that we have about umpteen+ different definitions of hazing floating around out there. It's easy enough, for example, to say that hazing is illegal and think that has settled the argument, but each state has its own hazing laws. What may constitute hazing in one state does not constitute hazing in another state. Where I live, one must subject another student to physical injury for it to meet the legal definition of hazing. In other jurisdictions, subjecting someone to mental or emotional distress may meet the definition.

Then there are GLO definitions and institutional definitions, where sometimes the definition is loose enough to cover almost anything that differentiates between pledges/new members and actives. That's why you'll find pages of arguments on GC about whether it's hazing to require pledges to wear their pledge pins, with some people remaining adamant that it is, even though the policies of some GLOs expect pledges to wear their pledge pins almost all of the time.

I'm not defending hazing, not at all. But as long as people are using different, sometimes vastly different, definitions of hazing, its anything but black and white. It seems to me that all too often the arguments in these thread suffer from a lack of common understanding or agreement about what hazing actually encompasses.

"Hazing" can be practiced without degrading anyone or putting them in any danger.And that's my point, as any such practices, by many definitions would not be considered hazing to begin with.

[Kevin]

sometimes the definition is loose enough to cover almost anything

For example, most hazing statements contain prohibitory clauses against practices "which might cause mental discomfort."

-- study hall is hazing?
-- requiring people to attend meeting is hazing?
-- requiring people to pay attention in meeting and not goof off is hazing?

That sort of clause, I think (and it's in Sigma Nu's policy) is a nice catch all clause which makes it really difficult (impossible) to know whether a practice runs afoul of the policy or not.

[TSteven]

The problem is that "hazing" is so vague. It's a joke. "Hazing" can be practiced without degrading anyone or putting them in any danger. All this has already been mentioned, but based on your post I'm not sure if you read it. It's not a black and white issue. "But it's illegal blah blah". To that I say, "do you drink? are you 21? do you ever speed?". To that you might say, "but hazing is more dangerous"...well not necessarily. We could go on forever with this issue. There is no definitive answer.

I understand your point. And as others have noted, I too have an issue when hazing acts are not clearly defined. However, if something is illegal, well duh, it is illegal.

If you are under 21 and caught drinking, you can go to jail. If you are caught speeding, you can be fined. You may loose your license. You might even end up in jail. Even if you have not really put yourself or anyone else in harms way. As such, my point is that you (the general you) are taking a risk when you do something illegal. Even if it may not seem to be harmful. And this is the reason that illegal hazing acts fall under Risk Management.

To be clear, I do not think that all so called hazing acts are illegal. But if a specific act has been defined as illegal by the State, or by the University, or by your HQ, or by your chapter, then it is simply illegal.

[33girl]

To be clear, I do not think that all so called hazing acts are illegal. But if a specific act has been defined as illegal by the State, or by the University, or by your HQ, or by your chapter, then it is simply illegal.

But that's the problem. Very few things ARE "specific" or "defined." And even if there is a list of things, too often that "anything else which might cause physical or mental discomfort" phrase gets thrown in, and anyone who wants to take a chapter down can try to do so.

As I've said, my all time favorite is the sorority pledge from my campus who pointed out that she was being hazed by having to go to the anti-hazing workshop (since it was mandatory for all pledges and initiated members did not have to attend). Silly, but honestly, if you want to walk that kind of walk, she was 100% right.

[TSteven]

But that's the problem. Very few things ARE "specific" or "defined." And even if there is a list of things, too often that "anything else which might cause physical or mental discomfort" phrase gets thrown in, and anyone who wants to take a chapter down can try to do so.

As I've said, my all time favorite is the sorority pledge from my campus who pointed out that she was being hazed by having to go to the anti-hazing workshop (since it was mandatory for all pledges and initiated members did not have to attend). Silly, but honestly, if you want to walk that kind of walk, she was 100% right.

I love it. I hope she became panhellenic president!

You are so right. It is the activities that are kind of general and non specific that often are the issue. If we go back to the driving example, it may be legal to drive at 70 MPH on the interstate in one state. But as soon as you cross the state line, the legal limit may be 65 MPH. As such, the same activity is legal in one, and not the other. So if you want to be safe, you know that you should never drive above 65 regardless of the speed limit.

So if this could be applied to GLOs, then maybe all the national organizations can set down and say, 65 MPH is going to be the limit regardless of the state. That way, we will never be breaking the law. And all chapters of all groups will have the same policy.

As for the less defined or specific acts, again I think there has to be some sort of clear and unified definition. I know many of us have said that. As such, I feel we need to find and define the so called "65 MPH limit". And if a specific organization wants to go above and beyond that (drop the speed limit to 60 MPH to use that example) that would be ok as well.

The sooner there is a unified definition, the better for all chapters.

[cheerfulgreek]

No, it's not that black and white. The problem is that we have about umpteen+ different definitions of hazing floating around out there. It's easy enough, for example, to say that hazing is illegal and think that has settled the argument, but each state has its own hazing laws. What may constitute hazing in one state does not constitute hazing in another state. Where I live, one must subject another student to physical injury for it to meet the legal definition of hazing. In other jurisdictions, subjecting someone to mental or emotional distress may meet the definition.

Then there are GLO definitions and institutional definitions, where sometimes the definition is loose enough to cover almost anything that differentiates between pledges/new members and actives. That's why you'll find pages of arguments on GC about whether it's hazing to require pledges to wear their pledge pins, with some people remaining adamant that it is, even though the policies of some GLOs expect pledges to wear their pledge pins almost all of the time.

I'm not defending hazing, not at all. But as long as people are using different, sometimes vastly different, definitions of hazing, its anything but black and white. It seems to me that all too often the arguments in these thread suffer from a lack of common understanding or agreement about what hazing actually encompasses.
How is this not a black and white issue? Hazing is hazing, whether on or off campus premises, and it's designed to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule.

Student guidelines often maintain that hazing can take place with or without the consent of the pledges being hazed. Schools fail to press charges if pledges have consented to some aspects of hazing, and this is a major problem.

What I get upset about is that the public and the media view hazing as primarily a college fraternity and sorority problem. Really, it's also been a social problem in the United States on amateur and professional athletic teams, in high schools, spirit clubs, bands, the military, and even in some occupations and professions.

All schools can suspend or expel students who haze and they know they can, but juducial groups made up of faculty, staff, and students are reluctant to term an action "hazing", which prevents justice from happening. I totally disagree with you about it not being a black and white issue. People just don't want to term it as such.

Hazing is:

1. Serving members, running errands, performing so called favors

2. Any kind of intimidation, use of derogatory terms to refer to pledges, terrorize, use verbal abuse or create a hostile environment

3.Engaging in acts of degradation such as required nudity, partial stripping, rules forbidding bathing, and playing disrespectful games.

4. Engaging in rough rituals involving physical force, paddling, beatings, calisthenics, and sexually demeaning behavior

5. Singing explicit songs as well as performing sexist, racist, or anti semitic acts, including denying someone membership in a glo on the basis of religion, or skin color. Oh, and lets not forget ancestry. (what's in the past, is in the past!)

6. Employing deception and deceptive psychological mind games

7. Suffering from sleep deprivation.

8. Coerce or be coerced by others to consume any substance, drugs, alcohol, rather they are of legal drinking age or not.

9. Keeping pledge books that require alumni members or big sis/big brothers to sign them.

10. Participating in road trips and kidnapping pledges or any type of abandonment.

11. Requiring the use of peer pressure to get someone to undergo branding or tattooing. Any mutilation of the skin. Period.

12. Participating in dousing of initiates involving dangerous substances or chemicals, animal scents, urine/feces (human or animal) retrieving objects from toilets or anything that's unsanitary. Eating spoiled foods that are capable of transmitting diseases or bacterial infections.

13. Making someone eat/drink anything he/she does not want to eat/drink

14. Making pledges learn fraternity/sorority history that interferes with academics.

15. Requiring pledges to wear silly or unusual clothing

I don't think I left anything out. Hazing falls under these guidelines, so there shouldn't be a question of what hazing is or isn't. Yes, it is a black and white issue, and one of the biggest problems of hazing is after it's been eradicated at a particular school, it seems to always come back. Guys, really! We all know what hazing is. Every state and university knows what it is and what it involves. It's not a grey topic.

[PhiGam]

How is this not a black and white issue? Hazing is hazing, whether on or off campus premises, and it's designed to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule.

Student guidelines often maintain that hazing can take place with or without the consent of the pledges being hazed. Schools fail to press charges if pledges have consented to some aspects of hazing, and this is a major problem.

What I get upset about is that the public and the media view hazing as primarily a college fraternity and sorority problem. Really, it's also been a social problem in the United States on amateur and professional athletic teams, in high schools, spirit clubs, bands, the military, and even in some occupations and professions.

All schools can suspend or expel students who haze and they know they can, but juducial groups made up of faculty, staff, and students are reluctant to term an action "hazing", which prevents justice from happening. I totally disagree with you about it not being a black and white issue. People just don't want to term it as such.

Hazing is:

1. Serving members, running errands, performing so called favors

2. Any kind of intimidation, use of derogatory terms to refer to pledges, terrorize, use verbal abuse or create a hostile environment

3.Engaging in acts of degradation such as required nudity, partial stripping, rules forbidding bathing, and playing disrespectful games.

4. Engaging in rough rituals involving physical force, paddling, beatings, calisthenics, and sexually demeaning behavior

5. Singing explicit songs as well as performing sexist, racist, or anti semitic acts, including denying someone membership in a glo on the basis of religion, or skin color. Oh, and lets not forget ancestry. (what's in the past, is in the past!)

6. Employing deception and deceptive psychological mind games

7. Suffering from sleep deprivation.

8. Coerce or be coerced by others to consume any substance, drugs, alcohol, rather they are of legal drinking age or not.

9. Keeping pledge books that require alumni members or big sis/big brothers to sign them.

10. Participating in road trips and kidnapping pledges or any type of abandonment.

11. Requiring the use of peer pressure to get someone to undergo branding or tattooing. Any mutilation of the skin. Period.

12. Participating in dousing of initiates involving dangerous substances or chemicals, animal scents, urine/feces (human or animal) retrieving objects from toilets or anything that's unsanitary. Eating spoiled foods that are capable of transmitting diseases or bacterial infections.

13. Making someone eat/drink anything he/she does not want to eat/drink

14. Making pledges learn fraternity/sorority history that interferes with academics.

15. Requiring pledges to wear silly or unusual clothing

I don't think I left anything out. Hazing falls under these guidelines, so there shouldn't be a question of what hazing is or isn't. Yes, it is a black and white issue, and one of the biggest problems of hazing is after it's been eradicated at a particular school, it seems to always come back. Guys, really! We all know what hazing is. Every state and university knows what it is and what it involves. It's not a grey topic.
There are grey areas. I've heard of fraternities trading pledges with another chapter for "hell weekend." Who gets punished there?
What if the pledges do all of these things voluntarily?
Once again, my chapter does not ever haze, but I know of others GLOs that do and have talked about it to my friends in other fraternities. We do #14 but it doesn't interfere with academics, my pledge class had a higher GPA than the fraternity (which is above the all-male average as well).

[jon1856]

There are grey areas. I've heard of fraternities trading pledges with another chapter for "hell weekend." Who gets punished there?

In answer to your question: Both could be.
Questions like yours truly get answered when TPTB, either school, local town, and/or HO, get involved and start enforcing regs et al.
None of us here can truly answer questions of than nature.
Unless it has already happened to them directly.

[33girl]

What I find most offensive is when policies tell me "you were hazed" even if I did things voluntarily for people and with people because I LIKED them - they just happened to be sisters and I was a pledge.

I bought fries back from Wendy's when I was going there anyway because a sister was sick and craving them. Does that mean I was hazed? I guess I'm not allowed to do something nice for another person.

I stayed up till 3 AM talking with my big - we were so involved in conversation we forgot the time - even though I had to go to class the next morning at 8 AM. I guess I was hazed because I suffered from sleep deprivation.

I drank too much at a mixer and a sister dragged me home and made sure I ate so I didn't get sick from drinking too much. I guess that means she hazed me by making me eat something I didn't want to.

Anyone who really wants to can take the most innocuous things that happen in pledgeship and make them into hazing.

[Kevin]

How is this not a black and white issue? Hazing is hazing, whether on or off campus premises, and it's designed to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule.

Student guidelines often maintain that hazing can take place with or without the consent of the pledges being hazed. Schools fail to press charges if pledges have consented to some aspects of hazing, and this is a major problem.

What I get upset about is that the public and the media view hazing as primarily a college fraternity and sorority problem. Really, it's also been a social problem in the United States on amateur and professional athletic teams, in high schools, spirit clubs, bands, the military, and even in some occupations and professions.

All schools can suspend or expel students who haze and they know they can, but juducial groups made up of faculty, staff, and students are reluctant to term an action "hazing", which prevents justice from happening. I totally disagree with you about it not being a black and white issue. People just don't want to term it as such.

Hazing is:

1. Serving members, running errands, performing so called favors

2. Any kind of intimidation, use of derogatory terms to refer to pledges, terrorize, use verbal abuse or create a hostile environment

3.Engaging in acts of degradation such as required nudity, partial stripping, rules forbidding bathing, and playing disrespectful games.

4. Engaging in rough rituals involving physical force, paddling, beatings, calisthenics, and sexually demeaning behavior

5. Singing explicit songs as well as performing sexist, racist, or anti semitic acts, including denying someone membership in a glo on the basis of religion, or skin color. Oh, and lets not forget ancestry. (what's in the past, is in the past!)

6. Employing deception and deceptive psychological mind games

7. Suffering from sleep deprivation.

8. Coerce or be coerced by others to consume any substance, drugs, alcohol, rather they are of legal drinking age or not.

9. Keeping pledge books that require alumni members or big sis/big brothers to sign them.

10. Participating in road trips and kidnapping pledges or any type of abandonment.

11. Requiring the use of peer pressure to get someone to undergo branding or tattooing. Any mutilation of the skin. Period.

12. Participating in dousing of initiates involving dangerous substances or chemicals, animal scents, urine/feces (human or animal) retrieving objects from toilets or anything that's unsanitary. Eating spoiled foods that are capable of transmitting diseases or bacterial infections.

13. Making someone eat/drink anything he/she does not want to eat/drink

14. Making pledges learn fraternity/sorority history that interferes with academics.

15. Requiring pledges to wear silly or unusual clothing

I don't think I left anything out. Hazing falls under these guidelines, so there shouldn't be a question of what hazing is or isn't. Yes, it is a black and white issue, and one of the biggest problems of hazing is after it's been eradicated at a particular school, it seems to always come back. Guys, really! We all know what hazing is. Every state and university knows what it is and what it involves. It's not a grey topic.

The above does contain parts of policy items from my own organization's hazing policy, but the above is not my organization's hazing policy. I also know the state of Oklahoma's hazing law. The above looks nothing like that.

You, Sigma Nu and Oklahoma all define hazing differently -- and I only looked in three places.

[macallan25]

How is this not a black and white issue? Hazing is hazing, whether on or off campus premises, and it's designed to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule.

Of course it's not a black and white issue. If I make a bunch of pledges go to STUDY HALL to IMPROVE THEIR GRADES......should I be kicked out of school and charged with hazing in court? I mean, technically holding study hall for pledges only is hazing.

I was hazed.......nothing I did was "designed to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule." It was a tough experience and it made me extremely close to my pledge brothers. Probably the one thing I loved going through that I wouldn't want to do again.

Student guidelines often maintain that hazing can take place with or without the consent of the pledges being hazed. Schools fail to press charges if pledges have consented to some aspects of hazing, and this is a major problem.

Why is it a major problem? That's dumb. So you're saying that the person who was allegedly "hazed" shouldn't have any say in what happens to the group that he was working hard to get into or the person that was "hazing" him? What if the kid loved what he was doing and felt no danger, distress, mental discomfort, etc. etc.

What I get upset about is that the public and the media view hazing as primarily a college fraternity and sorority problem. Really, it's also been a social problem in the United States on amateur and professional athletic teams, in high schools, spirit clubs, bands, the military, and even in some occupations and professions.

Ok

All schools can suspend or expel students who haze and they know they can, but juducial groups made up of faculty, staff, and students are reluctant to term an action "hazing", which prevents justice from happening. I totally disagree with you about it not being a black and white issue. People just don't want to term it as such.

People don't want to term it as such because IT ISN'T A YES OR NO ISSUE. Hazing, the act of hazing, and what constitutes hazing will be debated till the cows come home.

Hazing is:

1. Serving members, running errands, performing so called favors

2. Any kind of intimidation, use of derogatory terms to refer to pledges, terrorize, use verbal abuse or create a hostile environment

3.Engaging in acts of degradation such as required nudity, partial stripping, rules forbidding bathing, and playing disrespectful games.

4. Engaging in rough rituals involving physical force, paddling, beatings, calisthenics, and sexually demeaning behavior

5. Singing explicit songs as well as performing sexist, racist, or anti semitic acts, including denying someone membership in a glo on the basis of religion, or skin color. Oh, and lets not forget ancestry. (what's in the past, is in the past!)

6. Employing deception and deceptive psychological mind games

7. Suffering from sleep deprivation.

8. Coerce or be coerced by others to consume any substance, drugs, alcohol, rather they are of legal drinking age or not.

9. Keeping pledge books that require alumni members or big sis/big brothers to sign them.

10. Participating in road trips and kidnapping pledges or any type of abandonment.

11. Requiring the use of peer pressure to get someone to undergo branding or tattooing. Any mutilation of the skin. Period.

12. Participating in dousing of initiates involving dangerous substances or chemicals, animal scents, urine/feces (human or animal) retrieving objects from toilets or anything that's unsanitary. Eating spoiled foods that are capable of transmitting diseases or bacterial infections.

13. Making someone eat/drink anything he/she does not want to eat/drink

14. Making pledges learn fraternity/sorority history that interferes with academics.

15. Requiring pledges to wear silly or unusual clothing

I don't think I left anything out. Hazing falls under these guidelines, so there shouldn't be a question of what hazing is or isn't. Yes, it is a black and white issue, and one of the biggest problems of hazing is after it's been eradicated at a particular school, it seems to always come back. Guys, really! We all know what hazing is. Every state and university knows what it is and what it involves. It's not a grey topic.

For the third time, yes, it is a grey topic. There are countless things in that list that I don't think you would get in trouble for...ever.

Also, you know what really irritates the shit out of me....bullshit "hazing" designations like #14. Really? If we make our pledges LEARN THE HISTORY OF THE ORGANIZATION THEY ARE WANTING TO JOIN we are hazing? Really?

[Zeta13Girl]

How is this not a black and white issue? Hazing is hazing, whether on or off campus premises, and it's designed to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule.


I hope cheerful greek this once and for all clears it up for you. What makes me mentally and physically uncomfortable is probably different then at least 50% of the other GCer's on here. Same goes for being embarrassed. The beauty of being an individual is that we all have our different breaking points and its impossible to set a standard line for everything.

Hazing is like any other political issue you will never get a 100% agreement. The will always be pro choice/prolife, anti-gun bearers/right to bear arms, for capital punishment/against capital punishment.


You dont have to agree with what is said on here, but you need to open your mind and try to see that it isnt black and white. You can't tell me that a kid who's parents forced him to go to military school and gets peed on or beaten with a 2x4 is the same thing as having a new member where a pledge pin to show pride in the organization he willingly chose to join.


*in case anyone is interested as my fraternity education chair one year I had the new members ask me one thing about greek life they wanted me to find out. They wanted to know where paddles originated from... While looking up the answer I stumbled across information that stated Hazing didn't start in fraternities until military men joined them and they transfered over what they had learned in the military to the brothers. After they left the uneducated brothers continued with the activities and didn't know where to draw the line.*

[DSTCHAOS]

*in case anyone is interested as my fraternity education chair one year I had the new members ask me one thing about greek life they wanted me to find out. They wanted to know where paddles originated from... While looking up the answer I stumbled across information that stated Hazing didn't start in fraternities until military men joined them and they transfered over what they had learned in the military to the brothers....


That's the same info I learned years ago, specifically regarding NPHC organizations and the military men who brought back military practices. Then of course it passed on to many sorority chapters.

I deleted your last sentence because I do not know about the military men leaving and the left over men not knowing where to draw the line. I think that some of the military practices themselves crossed the line in many ways. They were meant for military bonding, rites of passages and to prepare soldiers for combat, the possibility of being a POW, etc. Plus, in some chapters the military brothers stuck around long after they graduated, or did not go back into active duty, so they often had a hand in what was taken too far.

[LXAAlum]

What I find most offensive is when policies tell me "you were hazed" even if I did things voluntarily for people and with people because I LIKED them - they just happened to be sisters and I was a pledge.

I bought fries back from Wendy's when I was going there anyway because a sister was sick and craving them. Does that mean I was hazed? I guess I'm not allowed to do something nice for another person.

I stayed up till 3 AM talking with my big - we were so involved in conversation we forgot the time - even though I had to go to class the next morning at 8 AM. I guess I was hazed because I suffered from sleep deprivation.

I drank too much at a mixer and a sister dragged me home and made sure I ate so I didn't get sick from drinking too much. I guess that means she hazed me by making me eat something I didn't want to.

Anyone who really wants to can take the most innocuous things that happen in pledgeship and make them into hazing.

True, but, your situations all appear to have been "voluntary" on your part, i.e., you weren't "compelled" as a condition of continued membership to do all the nice things you did - it's when it crosses the line that even innocent "errands" etc....can be construed out of context into hazing.

Hazing occurs when the line between brotherly love gets blurred with unbrotherly stupidity....

[33girl]

True, but, your situations all appear to have been "voluntary" on your part, i.e., you weren't "compelled" as a condition of continued membership to do all the nice things you did - it's when it crosses the line that even innocent "errands" etc....can be construed out of context into hazing.

Hazing occurs when the line between brotherly love gets blurred with unbrotherly stupidity....

But that's my point. If it is "black and white" someone could say "oh, 33 did this and she is a pledge, therefore she must have been forced and it must have been hazing." That's the problem. It's gotten to the point in sororities that sisters are afraid to be alone with pledges because something could get misinterpreted.

[cheerfulgreek]

True, but, your situations all appear to have been "voluntary" on your part, i.e., you weren't "compelled" as a condition of continued membership to do all the nice things you did - it's when it crosses the line that even innocent "errands" etc....can be construed out of context into hazing.

Hazing occurs when the line between brotherly love gets blurred with unbrotherly stupidity....
My point precisely.

None of this falls under what hazing actually is. It's not grey, but people make it grey, by posting opinions like the one you quoted. It's black and white, because it involves a group's request (or the request of individuals within that group that the person in a subservient position perceives to be important) that a potential new member take some action in order to be held in esteem by the group and/or to gain entrance into an organization. I think request defined as hazing can be explicit, or implicit, either way it's hazing and it's wrong. The problem is people who haze and expect those who are hazed to behave in a certain way fail to consider the fact that some pnms could be chronic worriers who could be distressed by verbal abuse, or that some come to the fraternity/sorority with a bad past, have thought about quitting school, are addicted to alcohol/drugs or perhaps have considered suicide. Even strong and healthy people have limits to which they can be pushed. Add to the fact that many hazing traditions are inherently negligent, and sad consequences such as wrongful deaths become all too likely, especially when binge drinking is involved.

macallan25, I totally disagree with you. Members who haze justify actions that are outside the range of normal human behavior. People who join by allowing themselves to be hazed, crave relationships and acceptance, not primarily because they respond to the organizations particular ideology. Some people allow themselves to be hazed because they find themselves in an unfamiliar surrounding their 1st year in college away from family and childhood friends, so they then seek a feeling of belonging. To these people, enduring hazing rather it's physical and/or mental, beats the pain of loneliness. I'm not saying joining a fraternity or a sorority is wrong, I would be a hypocrite if I said that. But I don't think anyone should have to risk their health in any way, shape, or form.

Also macallan25, because my opinions are different from yours doesn't make them dumb! I don't agree with 99.9% of your posts in many threads that you've posted in, but I don't call them dumb or stupid. Your opinions on OJ are the only posts I've ever agreed with. If you think my opinions are dumb, then you don't have to respond to them.

[bowsandtoes]

If someone doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with the small amount of stress induced by hazing, I probably don't want them in my chapter.

Membership in the organization is not free, you're going to have to work for it. Some people hear about 'hazing' and realize they may not want to be a part of the group that badly anymore. Things like serving dinner, cleaning the house, study hours, are just paying your dues. You have to contribute before you can join.

[Kevin]

My point precisely.

None of this falls under what hazing actually is. It's not grey, but people make it grey, by posting opinions like the one you quoted. It's black and white, because it involves a group's request (or the request of individuals within that group that the person in a subservient position perceives to be important) that a potential new member take some action in order to be held in esteem by the group and/or to gain entrance into an organization. I think request defined as hazing can be explicit, or implicit, either way it's hazing and it's wrong. The problem is people who haze and expect those who are hazed to behave in a certain way fail to consider the fact that some pnms could be chronic worriers who could be distressed by verbal abuse, or that some come to the fraternity/sorority with a bad past, have thought about quitting school, are addicted to alcohol/drugs or perhaps have considered suicide. Even strong and healthy people have limits to which they can be pushed. Add to the fact that many hazing traditions are inherently negligent, and sad consequences such as wrongful deaths become all too likely, especially when binge drinking is involved.

macallan25, I totally disagree with you. Members who haze justify actions that are outside the range of normal human behavior. People who join by allowing themselves to be hazed, crave relationships and acceptance, not primarily because they respond to the organizations particular ideology. Some people allow themselves to be hazed because they find themselves in an unfamiliar surrounding their 1st year in college away from family and childhood friends, so they then seek a feeling of belonging. To these people, enduring hazing rather it's physical and/or mental, beats the pain of loneliness. I'm not saying joining a fraternity or a sorority is wrong, I would be a hypocrite if I said that. But I don't think anyone should have to risk their health in any way, shape, or form.

Also macallan25, because my opinions are different from yours doesn't make them dumb! I don't agree with 99.9% of your posts in many threads that you've posted in, but I don't call them dumb or stupid. Your opinions on OJ are the only posts I've ever agreed with. If you think my opinions are dumb, then you don't have to respond to them.

It would seem then that the only way not to haze (per your definition which is something you apparently just made up) is to not have new members.

My collegiate chapter shows up to football games in shirt and tie -- sometimes coat and tie. Do you think that new members, pledges, feel maybe just a tiny bit of peer pressure to also show up in shirt and tie? Do you think they might be asked to change clothes if they didn't? Yes and yes.

That's hazing to you? It is under your definition. That said, I've never heard of anyone in the history of the world being charged with hazing for activity such as that.

My collegiate chapter emphasizes social graces, good manners and etiquette. We teach our new members how to act, how to treat women with respect, etc. When they're at formal, do you think new members feel like they're under a bit of a microscope when it comes to how they treat their dates? Do you think they will be corrected if they do something wrong? Might that correction (done in a polite, nice way) create some "mental discomfort"? Yes, yes and yes.

So now, according to your newly minted definition, and perhaps my own organization's insanely vague definition, teaching etiquette and expecting members and new members alike to exhibit good manners is hazing.

In order to be initiated, our new members are required to reach a certain GPA. The GPA they are required to reach is different from that which is required to remain a member. Is requiring that new members get good grades hazing? Again, you'd be the only person in the history of the world to think that, so choose your answer carefully.

[33girl]

I think request defined as hazing can be explicit, or implicit, either way it's hazing and it's wrong. The problem is people who haze and expect those who are hazed to behave in a certain way fail to consider the fact that some pnms could be chronic worriers who could be distressed by verbal abuse, or that some come to the fraternity/sorority with a bad past, have thought about quitting school, are addicted to alcohol/drugs or perhaps have considered suicide. Even strong and healthy people have limits to which they can be pushed. Add to the fact that many hazing traditions are inherently negligent, and sad consequences such as wrongful deaths become all too likely, especially when binge drinking is involved.

So basically, everything is hazing and everything any Greek group does has to be geared to coddle the weakest member.

The thing is - Greek membership IS NOT EASY. Has it occurred to you that if someone's a chronic worrier that sitting through hours of membership selection as a sister isn't exactly going to be the best thing for her? Should someone who can't handle being around alcohol at all really join a fraternity who doesn't overindulge but does offer alcohol at their parties? Someone who's suicidal should work that out with a psychiatrist or a counselor at the student center - NOT expect a group of 18-22 year olds to help him/her through it just because he/she is a pledge. 18-22 year olds shouldn't be doing that.

Pledgeship is training for active brotherhood or sisterhood. If you find out during pledgeship that it's not for you, you can quit. Greek life is not for everyone, and it's time we stopped pretending it is.

[DSTCHAOS]

The voluntary versus involuntary isn't a strong argument so the grey area isn't because of that.

99% of the hazing is technically voluntary, ranging from technically allowing someone to paddle you to allowing yourself to be "forced" to drink gallons of water or alcohol.

Even the alleged milder forms of hazing like scavenger hunts are voluntary but we all know that people do these things because they think they should. People who refuse to go through these things will be treated accordingly--and in most chapters that means that their experience will be made into a nightmare.

So voluntarily being hazed, enjoying some of the experiences, and thinking that what you went through is a reasonable rite of passage doesn't change anything. You were still hazed, based on many definitions, and what you experienced can always be taken to an extreme if placed in the wrong hands. That applies to the hazing of 50 years ago and the hazing of today.

The REAL grey area is that we know that some people are responsible and don't take power to the extreme so they aren't hoping to truly physically or mentally damage people (I acknowledge that "truly" is subjective). However, as I said before, the hazing laws exist because "some people" isn't enough insurance and people seeking membership have different physical and mental tolerance levels that aren't always considered. One pledge could do 300 pushups with ease and another not only can't but can end up in cardiac arrest because of it. Harmless or a "fluke" outcome of a hazing incident that justifies why hazing is illegal?

[DSTCHAOS]

Pledgeship is training for active brotherhood or sisterhood.

Eh--that's always our response but we know that much of the stuff isn't really training in that sense. Some of it is a rite of passage for the sake of a rite of passage and often a power differential effect. That works until it is taken too far.

Real training for active membership includes giving "pledges" assignments like program ideas and implementations. Teaching "pledges" how to interact with their future brothers and sisters--since they won't be running errands forever. But lo and behold that type of training can still be hazing if it is outside of the national organization's intake guidelines and the aspirants can't say "no" and still be treated the same as someone who says "yes."

[ladygreek]

Pledgeship is training for active brotherhood or sisterhood. If you find out during pledgeship that it's not for you, you can quit. .
And that right there is a big part of the problem. Folx have made pledging and hazing synonymous. Pledging is for bonding, hazing is for destruction. Pledging is commiting oneself to the ideals of the organization. Hazing is belittling the ideals of an organization, etc.

And I agree, it is far from being a black or white issue. There are many grey areas.

[PrettyBoy]

If someone doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with the small amount of stress induced by hazing, I probably don't want them in my chapter.

Membership in the organization is not free, you're going to have to work for it. Some people hear about 'hazing' and realize they may not want to be a part of the group that badly anymore. Things like serving dinner, cleaning the house, study hours, are just paying your dues. You have to contribute before you can join.
I agree with you 110% and I couldn't have said it better.

[macallan25]

It would seem then that the only way not to haze (per your definition which is something you apparently just made up) is to not have new members.

My collegiate chapter shows up to football games in shirt and tie -- sometimes coat and tie. Do you think that new members, pledges, feel maybe just a tiny bit of peer pressure to also show up in shirt and tie? Do you think they might be asked to change clothes if they didn't? Yes and yes.

That's hazing to you? It is under your definition. That said, I've never heard of anyone in the history of the world being charged with hazing for activity such as that.

My collegiate chapter emphasizes social graces, good manners and etiquette. We teach our new members how to act, how to treat women with respect, etc. When they're at formal, do you think new members feel like they're under a bit of a microscope when it comes to how they treat their dates? Do you think they will be corrected if they do something wrong? Might that correction (done in a polite, nice way) create some "mental discomfort"? Yes, yes and yes.

So now, according to your newly minted definition, and perhaps my own organization's insanely vague definition, teaching etiquette and expecting members and new members alike to exhibit good manners is hazing.

In order to be initiated, our new members are required to reach a certain GPA. The GPA they are required to reach is different from that which is required to remain a member. Is requiring that new members get good grades hazing? Again, you'd be the only person in the history of the world to think that, so choose your answer carefully.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Per cheerfulgreek's definition of hazing there really is no point of having pledge classes......because you'll probably be hazing them all the time and not even know your doing it because, evidently, everything is hazing: studying, learning about the fraternity, learning how to dress and act like a gentleman, etc. etc. etc.

...and for the record CG, I never said you were dumb or that your post was dumb. I said that the idea that a pledge shouldn't have any say or comments on the conduct of his actives in an alleged hazing incident is dumb.

[jon1856]

This is exactly what I was thinking. Per cheerfulgreek's definition of hazing there really is no point of having pledge classes......because you'll probably be hazing them all the time and not even know your doing it because, evidently, everything is hazing: studying, learning about the fraternity, learning how to dress and act like a gentleman, etc. etc. etc.

...and for the record CG, I never said you were dumb or that your post was dumb. I said that the idea that a pledge shouldn't have any say or comments on the conduct of his actives in an alleged hazing incident is dumb.
Just today I was at a job interview. Both of the interviewers were women.
Both of them commented on how it was rare to find and see a man stand up when a woman walked into a room.

True, my parents taught me that. However my Fraternity reinforced it.
And I was taught it , not hazed.

[DSTCHAOS]

And that right there is a big part of the problem. Folx have made pledging and hazing synonymous. Pledging is for bonding, hazing is for destruction. Pledging is commiting oneself to the ideals of the organization. Hazing is belittling the ideals of an organization, etc.

And I agree, it is far from being a black or white issue. There are many grey areas.

Yeah this is another grey area that I forgot about in my post. :p

What is pledging versus hazing differs. What is considered a bonding activity differs.

[cheerfulgreek]

It would seem then that the only way not to haze (per your definition which is something you apparently just made up) is to not have new members.

My collegiate chapter shows up to football games in shirt and tie -- sometimes coat and tie. Do you think that new members, pledges, feel maybe just a tiny bit of peer pressure to also show up in shirt and tie? Do you think they might be asked to change clothes if they didn't? Yes and yes.

That's hazing to you? It is under your definition. That said, I've never heard of anyone in the history of the world being charged with hazing for activity such as that.

My collegiate chapter emphasizes social graces, good manners and etiquette. We teach our new members how to act, how to treat women with respect, etc. When they're at formal, do you think new members feel like they're under a bit of a microscope when it comes to how they treat their dates? Do you think they will be corrected if they do something wrong? Might that correction (done in a polite, nice way) create some "mental discomfort"? Yes, yes and yes.

So now, according to your newly minted definition, and perhaps my own organization's insanely vague definition, teaching etiquette and expecting members and new members alike to exhibit good manners is hazing.

In order to be initiated, our new members are required to reach a certain GPA. The GPA they are required to reach is different from that which is required to remain a member. Is requiring that new members get good grades hazing? Again, you'd be the only person in the history of the world to think that, so choose your answer carefully.
Making what up?! How in the hell can I make up an opinion?!

I said hazers justify actions that are outside the range of human behavior. I hardly would classify what you posted, hazing.

[jon1856]

Everyone is coming up with all sorts of definitions and POVs.
Perhaps one should take some time to read the following definitions-not based on law per se just common sense:
http://www.stophazing.org/mythsandfacts.html
http://www.hazing.cornell.edu/myths.html
http://www.stophazing.org/definition.html
http://www.insidehazing.com/definitions.php

[cheerfulgreek]

Pledgeship is training for active brotherhood or sisterhood.
This is correct.

Pledgeship is doing what's required to gain full membership in an organization, but it is NOT meant for potential new members to exert themselves by doing exercises, allowing themselves to be manhandled, paddled, beaten, encouraged to drink alcohol or to drink or eat concoctions, ect ect.

[cheerfulgreek]

This is exactly what I was thinking. Per cheerfulgreek's definition of hazing there really is no point of having pledge classes......because you'll probably be hazing them all the time and not even know your doing it because, evidently, everything is hazing: studying, learning about the fraternity, learning how to dress and act like a gentleman, etc. etc. etc.

...and for the record CG, I never said you were dumb or that your post was dumb. I said that the idea that a pledge shouldn't have any say or comments on the conduct of his actives in an alleged hazing incident is dumb.
macallan, I wouldn't consider this hazing. Of course pledge classes have to be held in order to learn about the organization and to prepare for sisterhood/brotherhood, but when it interferes with academic work, or when binge drinking starts, or when someone is beaten, paddled or made to do anything where his/her health is effected in a negative way, then that's when we have a hazing problem on our hands.

About the "dumb" comment, I guess I misunderstood you. I'm sorry.

[Kevin]

Making what up?! How in the hell can I make up an opinion?!

I said hazers justify actions that are outside the range of human behavior. I hardly would classify what you posted, hazing.

Really? Try looking at your own definition of hazing:

It's black and white, because it involves a group's request (or the request of individuals within that group that the person in a subservient position perceives to be important) that a potential new member take some action in order to be held in esteem by the group and/or to gain entrance into an organization. I think request defined as hazing can be explicit, or implicit, either way it's hazing and it's wrong.

I described each of those scenarios to fit within your offered definition. Perhaps it's not so "black and white" after all?

[cheerfulgreek]

Perhaps it's not so "black and white" after all?
o.k. Kevin, maybe it's not, but I think you have an understanding of what I classify as hazing.

[33girl]

This is correct.

Pledgeship is doing what's required to gain full membership in an organization, but it is NOT meant for potential new members to exert themselves by doing exercises, allowing themselves to be manhandled, paddled, beaten, encouraged to drink alcohol or to drink or eat concoctions, ect ect.

But the list of 14 things you posted goes FAR beyond physical abuse.

As for stophazing.org, I'd take anything that media whore says with an exceedingly large grain of salt.

[Kevin]

o.k. Kevin, maybe it's not, but I think you have an understanding of what I classify as hazing.

Yep. As quoted above, I understand perfectly.

Your hazing policy is just about as dangerously ambiguous and gray as what most schools and organizations have as their own hazing policies.

I like my state's definition of the word:

1. "Hazing" means an activity which recklessly or intentionally endangers the mental health or physical health or safety of a student for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with any organization operating subject to the sanction of the public or private school or of any institution of higher education in this state;

2. "Endanger the physical health" shall include but not be limited to any brutality of a physical nature, such as whipping, beating, branding, forced calisthenics, exposure to the elements, forced consumption of any food, alcoholic beverage as defined in Section 506 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, low-point beer as defined in Section 163.2 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, drug, controlled dangerous substance, or other substance, or any other forced physical activity which could adversely affect the physical health or safety of the individual; and

3. "Endanger the mental health" shall include any activity, except those activities authorized by law, which would subject the individual to extreme mental stress, such as prolonged sleep deprivation, forced prolonged exclusion from social contact, forced conduct which could result in extreme embarrassment, or any other forced activity which could adversely affect the mental health or dignity of the individual.
I think that Oklahoma's hazing policy (full statute at 21 O.S. 1190) is a lot more clear than what we find with most of our organizations.

You might find "endangers the mental health or physical health" part to be ambiguous, but note that the standard applied there is that the action has to be at least reckless. That essentially forecloses the study hall/etiquette/dressing up examples I provided above as being hazing, which I still think that following your definition and many of our organizations' definitions, those things could be hazing.

Aside from all that, what you really ought to pay attention to is that the state of Oklahoma's definition and your own are two different things. It follows that what you might call hazing, the state of Oklahoma would not. That is what essentially proves the point that the definition of hazing is not a "black and white" issue as you so hotly contend.

The situation here is this: What is or is not hazing ultimately depends on the definition employed by the group or individual making that determination. What is and is not hazing is not always readily identifiable.

[DSTCHAOS]

not based on law per se just common sense:


What's the point of reinforcing the grey area of "common sense?"

[cheerfulgreek]

Yep. As quoted above, I understand perfectly.

Your hazing policy is just about as dangerously ambiguous and gray as what most schools and organizations have as their own hazing policies.

I like my state's definition of the word:

[/font][/size][/font]
I think that Oklahoma's hazing policy (full statute at 21 O.S. 1190) is a lot more clear than what we find with most of our organizations.

You might find "endangers the mental health or physical health" part to be ambiguous, but note that the standard applied there is that the action has to be at least reckless. That essentially forecloses the study hall/etiquette/dressing up examples I provided above as being hazing, which I still think that following your definition and many of our organizations' definitions, those things could be hazing.

Aside from all that, what you really ought to pay attention to is that the state of Oklahoma's definition and your own are two different things. It follows that what you might call hazing, the state of Oklahoma would not. That is what essentially proves the point that the definition of hazing is not a "black and white" issue as you so hotly contend.

The situation here is this: What is or is not hazing ultimately depends on the definition employed by the group or individual making that determination. What is and is not hazing is not always readily identifiable.
o.k. but isn't what you posted in the smaller font similar to what I covered in my definition of hazing? How is my definition any different?

[Kevin]

o.k. but isn't what you posted in the smaller font similar to what I covered in my definition of hazing? How is my definition any different?

Because the endangerment has to be reckless or intentional.

I already covered that. Go reread my post.

[jon1856]

What's the point of reinforcing the grey area of "common sense?"
Well, I do not know if you took the time to read all or even any of the links.
So for common sense:
All chapters operate under the following:
1) Their National laws, rules and regulations.
2) Their schools rules and regulations including anti-hazing and Student Code of Conduct.
3) Any and all local, State and National laws, rules and regulations.

And we all know that all of those are different every where.

So here are some links from a rather large Southern School covering most, if not all, of the above:
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/events/downloads/HazingMemorandum.pdf
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/events/hazing_memorandum.php
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/sjs/conduct.php
http://registrar.utexas.edu/catalogs/gi07-08/app/appf.html
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/gle/downloads/Hazing-DailyTexan-Summer05.pdf
http://www.stophazing.org/laws/tx_law.htm

Now there have been posters in many of the threads here in RM that have indicated that the hazing goes on at the "upper tier chapters" and no one cares. Well:
PENALIZED ORGANIZATIONS

In accordance with
Texas Hazing Statute requirements, the following list of organizations have had hazing penalties enforced within
the last three years:
Phi Kappa Psi

Penalty issued February 7, 2006 (Cancelled through
February 6, 2007; Suspended through February 6, 2008; Probation
through February 6, 2009).
• Lambda Phi Epsilon Penalty issued December 20, 2005 (Cancelled
through December 19, 2011; Suspended through December 19, 2012;
Probation through December 19, 2013).
• Sigma Phi Omega Penalty issued September 15, 2005 (Suspended
through December 31, 2005; Probation through December 31, 2006).
• alpha Kappa Delta Phi Penalty issued April 25, 2005 (Suspended
through April 25, 2006; Probation through April 26, 2007).
• Sigma Alpha Epsilon Extended probation.
• Kappa Alpha Order Penalty issued December 14, 2004 (Cancelled
through December 31, 2006; Suspended through December 31, 2007;
Probation through December 31, 2008).
• Pi Lambda Phi Penalty issued December 9, 2003 (Probation
through December 5, 2004).
• Sigma Chi Penalty issued April 26, 2004 (Cancelled through May
31, 2007; Suspended through May 31, 2008; Probation through
December 31, 2008).
• Sigma Alpha Mu Penalty issued December 7, 2001 (Suspended
through February 15, 2002; Probation through 2003). Penalty issued
December 2002 (Cancelled through December 31, 2004; Suspended
through December 31, 2005; Probation through December 7, 2007.
• Alpha Phi Alpha Penalty issued April 16, 2001 (Cancelled through
December 31, 2003; Probation through December 31, 2004).

[DSTCHAOS]

Well, I do not know if you took the time to read all or even any of the links.

My point (since your links were about nonlegal definitions and debunking myths):
There should be few hazing definitions and policies based on "common sense" because what is "common sense" to me isn't "common sense" to everyone. Everything should be based on the legal definition, wherever it comes from.

True Story:
Years ago, I had a fraternity member say to me "you've never loved an organization or appreciated it until you've almost died for it." That stupid stuff makes complete sense to him and a lot of people. They would consider that pledging and not hazing and judge others' love for their organization based on that. Call them crazy but they call us crazy.

[Kevin]

My point (since your links were about nonlegal definitions and debunking myths):
There should be few hazing definitions and policies based on "common sense" because what is "common sense" to me isn't "common sense" to everyone. Everything should be based on the legal definition, wherever it comes from.

True Story:
Years ago, I had a fraternity member say to me "you've never loved an organization or appreciated it until you've almost died for it." That stupid stuff makes complete sense to him and a lot of people. They would consider that pledging and not hazing and judge others' love for their organization based on that. Call them crazy but they call us crazy.

It's all a harmless difference of opinion until someone gets hurt and/or loses their charter.

[DSTCHAOS]

It's all a harmless difference of opinion until someone gets hurt and/or loses their charter.

Which is why I don't talk about "common sense" when it comes to hazing. ;)

[jon1856]

Which is why I don't talk about "common sense" when it comes to hazing. ;)
Read the links I gave above from the Southern School. Some of them are just about common sense rules and laws.
I do believe that we are on the same page.
I lost my home chapter because of a combination of violations of hazing and student code violations. "Dumb, dumber, and dumbest".

[bowsandtoes]

Phi Kappa Psi
Penalty issued February 7, 2006 (Cancelled through

February 6, 2007; Suspended through February 6, 2008; Probation
through February 6, 2009).
• Lambda Phi Epsilon Penalty issued December 20, 2005 (Cancelled
through December 19, 2011; Suspended through December 19, 2012;
Probation through December 19, 2013).
• Sigma Phi Omega Penalty issued September 15, 2005 (Suspended
through December 31, 2005; Probation through December 31, 2006).
• alpha Kappa Delta Phi Penalty issued April 25, 2005 (Suspended
through April 25, 2006; Probation through April 26, 2007).
• Sigma Alpha Epsilon Extended probation.
• Kappa Alpha Order Penalty issued December 14, 2004 (Cancelled
through December 31, 2006; Suspended through December 31, 2007;
Probation through December 31, 2008).
• Pi Lambda Phi Penalty issued December 9, 2003 (Probation
through December 5, 2004).
• Sigma Chi Penalty issued April 26, 2004 (Cancelled through May
31, 2007; Suspended through May 31, 2008; Probation through
December 31, 2008).
• Sigma Alpha Mu Penalty issued December 7, 2001 (Suspended
through February 15, 2002; Probation through 2003). Penalty issued
December 2002 (Cancelled through December 31, 2004; Suspended
through December 31, 2005; Probation through December 7, 2007.
• Alpha Phi Alpha Penalty issued April 16, 2001 (Cancelled through
December 31, 2003; Probation through December 31, 2004).




Those 'penalties' really don't do anything. At the worst, the chapter just leaves IFC, but that doesn't really affect much. SAE couldn't have parties at the house for awhile but those were extreme circumstances, they're fine now.

[jon1856]

Those 'penalties' really don't do anything. At the worst, the chapter just leaves IFC, but that doesn't really affect much. SAE couldn't have parties at the house for awhile but those were extreme circumstances, they're fine now.
I knew that Bows.;)
However it would seem as if TPTB on campus have given rather clear "notice" to all students.
And that is generally not done just to keep an Ad min busy for a day or two.
And it is TPTB, much more than IFC, that has control over matters. And leaving IFC is just the ez way to go.
And unfortunately that is something most students just to not care or wish to understand until it is too late.
And yes, I am speaking from experience.:(

[PrettyBoy]

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/greekforme_1992_113028059 (http://www.greekforme.com/kay-tshirt-k1600.html#)

[Tom Earp]

Which is why I don't talk about "common sense" when it comes to hazing. ;)


Is there any realy common sense when it comes to hazing?:mad::rolleyes:

[KonfidentOne]

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/greekforme_1992_113028059 (http://www.greekforme.com/kay-tshirt-k1600.html#)



All I can say is wow... I was NOT expecting that, lol...

[Kevin]

Okay, I selected the wrong function and merged all of the posts in that topic into one. Then I found the right function and moved them to the "Hazing Tradition" thread. Please go there to continue. Sorry for the confusion.

[AGDee]

*This got mixed up into the other thread, but I intended to post it here*


I don't know where to post this, but here is just as good a place as anywhere else I guess.

My son is a Boy Scout and a rep from the Order of the Arrow came to talk at his Boy Scout meeting because it was time for elections for OA. There was a video that was played where they talked about what Order of the Arrow is and about the Ordeal that the kids go through in order to join. During the Ordeal, they must sleep alone outdoors, go a full day without talking while doing service and then there is an initiation type ceremony. They said in this video, very specifically "This is not hazing and we do not haze. This is not like a fraternity initiation with hazing..."

This bothered me on two levels because 1) Everything they do that weekend would be considered hazing by most NIC groups and 2) How dare they imply that all fraternity initiations involve hazing?

Anyway, just wanted to vent with that.

[MysticCat]

My son is a Boy Scout and a rep from the Order of the Arrow came to talk at his Boy Scout meeting because it was time for elections for OA. There was a video that was played where they talked about what Order of the Arrow is and about the Ordeal that the kids go through in order to join. During the Ordeal, they must sleep alone outdoors, go a full day without talking while doing service and then there is an initiation type ceremony. They said in this video, very specifically "This is not hazing and we do not haze. This is not like a fraternity initiation with hazing..."

This bothered me on two levels because 1) Everything they do that weekend would be considered hazing by most NIC groups and 2) How dare they imply that all fraternity initiations involve hazing?

Anyway, just wanted to vent with that.As an Arrorman, I'll quickly agree with your second point.

As to your first point, I think it points up how the current climate has led some groups to throw the baby out with the bathwater as to what constitutes hazing. I think I've said before here at GC that my ordeal weekend was one of the most memorable of my life. I do not consider anything that happened to me that weekend, including the sleeping alone under the stars, the meager meals, the silence or the work, to have been hazing.

[AGDee]

I think they were trying to emphasize that it's all supervised and nobody would be harmed, but I was offended that they used a fraternity as the opposite example, especially SINCE those activities would be considered hazing by the fraternities. You know if a fraternity did that, they would get in trouble for hazing. I'm not worried about son going through the O of A ordeal weekend. He has to wait until fall anyway since he won't have his first class until the court of honor being held two weeks after the O of A weekend. It was just the irony of the statement.

I cannot see my son going that long without talking, but he has surprised me with Boy Scout stuff. He does all kinds of things for them that he won't do at home..lol. This weekend, they are camping at Fort Wayne and spending the weekend cleaning up the grounds. I can't get the kid to help me clean up our own yard!

[SistaTruth]

I say, if you want to get hazed then that is your stupidity. If you believe that putting your hands on me is proof of sisterhood, then you are not the sister for me. After weeks of getting your behind whipped, the people over the lines wonder why their neos do not get along and they do not want to work together. It is your fault. I hope that one day, people will be smart and stop allowing other people to whip their behinds to be accepted.

[rhoyaltempest]

I say, if you want to get hazed then that is your stupidity. If you believe that putting your hands on me is proof of sisterhood, then you are not the sister for me. After weeks of getting your behind whipped, the people over the lines wonder why their neos do not get along and they do not want to work together. It is your fault. I hope that one day, people will be smart and stop allowing other people to whip their behinds to be accepted.

"Hazing" has a completely different definition now than it had in past years. Of course anything physical is (and always has been) regarded as hazing but today hazing is anything outside of your organization's Membership Intake program (which is in compliance with the schools' anti-hazing policies and state laws). So much of what many members never regarded as hazing is in fact considered hazing today. In other words, pledging (which back in the day wasn't regarded as hazing) is hazing today. Many would like to see some form of the pledge process (minus what many consider to be "true" hazing) re-instated for various reasons.

[Jim_Hoegaarden]

One of the kids I'm rushing has actaully asked me about hazing, and he's interested to see how much of a constitution he has to take it. I've seen people quit because they were not hazed hard enough.

[LPIDelta]

One of the kids I'm rushing has actaully asked me about hazing, and he's interested to see how much of a constitution he has to take it. I've seen people quit because they were not hazed hard enough.

Yes, be proud that you're recruiting someone who has so little respect for themselves they will allow you take the easy way out by denegrating them and treating them poorly in an effort to gain your acceptance.

Sorry, that was pretty harsh, but hazing is too easy. There are some great ways to accomplish team building and bonding without hazing. Yes, they take more planning and involvement by the whole chapter to execute, but it can be done. It's unfortunate that there are still chapters out there that think putting new members down is the only way to learn to respect one another and build a bond. You have to give respect to get respect.

If it were me, I would be looking for the person that already knows how to respect others and build positive bonds with people because it ensures a stronger brother/sisterhood for the future...

[Tinia2]

One of the kids I'm rushing has actually asked me about hazing, and he's interested to see how much of a constitution he has to take it. I've seen people quit because they were not hazed hard enough.
or did they leave due to the hazing? perhaps they are smarter than you believe.

[MysticCat]

There are some great ways to accomplish team building and bonding without hazing. I've said this before on GC (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?p=304721), but I firmly believe that, for many if not most guys, at least, hazing it about much more and goes to something much deeper than "team building and bonding."

Don't get wrong -- to avoid any confusion, I think hazing is wrong and I support my fraternity's policies on hazing.

But I think any "alternative" to hazing may be less than successful if it doesn't meet what I would call the primal need to prove one's self by ordeal -- the same primal urge that symbolically underlies many, many fraternal and masonic-type initiation rituals.

Just my $0.02.

[ASTalumna06]

This was a blog post by one of the creators of Phiredup.com. Just thought I'd throw it on here.

What HURTS Recruitment Results?
by: Matt Mattson

You want recruitment results, right? What do you think is one of the major concerns/fears of potential new members? Yep, you guessed it… they don’t want to get hazed. They assume that joining a fraternity or sorority requires at least a week, if not a full semester, of humiliation, hard work, embarrassment, alcohol abuse, illegalities, and other things that they’re not interested in.

So, they don’t join.

I’m not talking about a few people on your campus that aren’t joining because of a fear of hazing. I’m suggesting that on most of your campuses there is about 80-90% of the campus that isn’t Greek. I’m suggesting that most of them are smarter than to put themselves in a position where hazing MIGHT happen.

You’re saying, “our chapter is different, we don’t haze.” Great! It is important to understand however, that your potential members don’t know that. And they aren’t joining because other chapters on your campus, in your inter/national organization, around your state, and around the country DO HAZE. They haze and you pay the price — the vast majority of your campus is afraid of what you MIGHT do to them.

Are you angry yet? You should be. I know I am. I know that many of you don’t haze, would never allow yourself to be hazed, and think that chapters that do haze are just stupid — never mind the “it’s against our values” stuff. You know, just like I do that they’re missing out on the best guys on campus (who avoid them altogether), and they lose many of their best members during their new member period (because they’re smart enough to get out during pledging).

Anytime I think or talk about hazing a couple of memories come up for me…

The first is a new member education exercise I did when I pledged to Alpha Sigma Phi Fraternity at Grand Valley State University back in 1996. One day during our new member ed meeting, the pledge educator took the whole 12-man class outside onto the lawn of the house. He put us in a circle and did a version of the “crossing the line” exercise.

During that exercise members were asked to step forward if they could relate to a statement. The statements started with benign things like, “I am a college student,” or “I am a republican.” As the statements continued, they became more and more challenging and personal, like “I have been angry at someone in this circle,” or “I’ve cheated in school before.” By the time we got toward the end of the exercise, the statements were very personal and very revealing. They included statements like:

“I have lost a loved one recently” (several of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have done hard drugs” (a couple of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have been very depressed” (a couple of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have been abused” (several of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have considered or attempted suicide” (3 of my pledge brother stepped forward)

“I have been sexually abused” (2 of my pledge brothers stepped forward)

“I have been raped…” (one of my pledge brothers stepped forward)

Very few experiences in my life have given me as much insight into the reality that all of us — even the ones you least expect — have had experiences in our life that have hurt deeply. If I am to be their brothers, and if I am to educate my interfraternal brothers and sisters to be the best members they can be — then I can not stand for us hurting one another (even if it is based on a joke or some “bonding” experience). Because even a light-hearted, seemingly harmless prank can bring back the pain of those past experiences and losses.

I can’t imagine how painful it would be for my pledge brothers (especially those that had been abused, sexually molested, suicidal, and/or recently grieving a lost loved one) to have been paddled, forced into dark rooms or blindfolds, forced to drink, to have had demeaning things shouted at them, etc.

New members join us often in one of the most vulnerable times in their lives. They have moved away from their friends and families, they are trying to establish their own personal identity, and they are vulnerable. We can’t abuse that. We have to nurture our brothers and sisters especially during their first few months as a member. That is what true brotherhood and sisterhood is.

The other memory that arises for me comes from when I was the president of my chapter. After one of our Pledge Ceremonies (an initial ritual for new members) in which the candidates were blindfolded, I had one of the new members come to my room at about 2 a.m. in tears. Now, I wasn’t used to having another guy come talk to me crying, so I was a little freaked out. He explained to me that he suffered from severe anxiety disorder, and the fact that we drove him around in a car for 30 minutes blindfolded (which we thought was harmless) was deathly terrifying for him.

Two thoughts come out of this scenario for me. First, it amazes me that he let us do that to him. But that just confirms how vulnerable we are when we’re new members. Secondly, I now do some work in the field of mental health and better understand the level of terror that he must have been experiencing. I also know that somewhere around 1 in 5 of us (yes, your chapter too) live with a serious mental illness (and you hardly ever know who we are). A good brother/sister wouldn’t kick their members while they’re down, and they certainly wouldn’t terrorize them on purpose.

Am I saying that “blindfolds are hazing.” No. I’m saying we need to be aware of the reality of what our brothers and sisters have gone through or are going through, and be sensitive to that. When they’re new members, often they’re afraid to tell you about these things, so we have to create environments that are extra safe for them — so that they feel safe and want to stick around.

My recommendation is to assume that somewhere in your new member class there is a person who has been abused, who has a mental illness, who has an eating disorder, who is an alcoholic, who can’t read, who was molested, or… who is suicidal right now. Build a new member education program based on those assumptions — because they’re probably TRUE.

Bottom line: If we’re helping you revolutionize your chapter by using Dynamic Recruitment to recruit a higher quantity of higher quality members, don’t haze them because if they really are higher quality members, they’ll quit, and all of our/your hard work will have been wasted.

Hazing hurts. It hurts recruitment results. It hurts people.

According to the NHPW website, since 1970 at least one person has died from a hazing related event each year. Let’s stop that.

One person can make the difference. Your opportunity is now here.

[Tinia2]

^^^^^wow. very interesting and thought provoking. perhaps thread moderator should stick this to the top of section.

[ree-Xi]

This was a blog post by one of the creators of Phiredup.com. Just thought I'd throw it on here.

What HURTS Recruitment Results?
by: Matt Mattson

You want recruitment results, right? What do you think is one of the major concerns/fears of potential new members? Yep, you guessed it… they don’t want to get hazed. They assume that joining a fraternity or sorority requires at least a week, if not a full semester, of humiliation, hard work, embarrassment, alcohol abuse, illegalities, and other things that they’re not interested in.

So, they don’t join....
<snip>
.....Bottom line: If we’re helping you revolutionize your chapter by using Dynamic Recruitment to recruit a higher quantity of higher quality members, don’t haze them because if they really are higher quality members, they’ll quit, and all of our/your hard work will have been wasted.

Hazing hurts. It hurts recruitment results. It hurts people.

According to the NHPW website, since 1970 at least one person has died from a hazing related event each year. Let’s stop that.

One person can make the difference. Your opportunity is now here.


This is perhaps the most powerful statement I have read regarding hazing. With proper credit to the author, I agree that this should be stickied.

[LPIDelta]

But I think any "alternative" to hazing may be less than successful if it doesn't meet what I would call the primal need to prove one's self by ordeal -- the same primal urge that symbolically underlies many, many fraternal and masonic-type initiation rituals.

Just my $0.02.

I understand what you're saying--and I probably don't get it because I am missing certain parts. But we're talking about joining a fraternity here, and what, in that, includes the need to prove your primal manhood? Where, in any fraternity's values, does it say that we value being primal? I see things about being a gentleman and respecting each other, but I don't recall anything about being Neanderthal-like.

I am being somewhat facetious but it's only to prove the point that sometimes the values we as members claim don't line up with the excuses to haze.

[MysticCat]

I understand what you're saying--and I probably don't get it because I am missing certain parts. But we're talking about joining a fraternity here, and what, in that, includes the need to prove your primal manhood? Where, in any fraternity's values, does it say that we value being primal? I see things about being a gentleman and respecting each other, but I don't recall anything about being Neanderthal-like.I think you are missing the point (and certain parts :D).

First, primal doesn't mean Neanderthal. It means fundamental or deep-seated -- way down in and integral to our psychological make-up.

Second, because our culture doesn't offer standard "initiation rites" that mark the transition from childhood to adulthood for men (not sure it does for women either), a vacuum is created that groups like fraternities step in to fill.

Third, I think most fraternities, in some way or another, say they are about making better men -- not just gentlemen, but better men. So there is built into the fraternal experience the idea of being the best man you can be. And in some ways on a deep psychological level, being the best man you can be requires proving yourself -- to yourself and to those whom you hope to have accept you as a peer. There is more than a grammatical difference in "joining" a fraternity, as you put it, and "being accepted" into a fraternity.

I'll readily agree that doesn't necessarily line up with excuses to haze. I'll also agree that there is hazing and then there is hazing. My point is, though, that I think hazing started because of this inborn need to prove one's self through some kind of ordeal. We can never successfully get rid of hazing unless we understand the psychology that underlies it and find other, more appropriate, ways to meet that need.

[ASTalumna06]

So... in order for you to "be accepted" into a fraternity you have to prove yourself by drinking too much, bowing down to brothers, and being humiliated?

That makes sense.

And what are these "initiation rites" you speak of? I didn't realize I had to be physically and emotionally harassed in order to grow up.

[MysticCat]

So... in order for you to "be accepted" into a fraternity you have to prove yourself by drinking too much, bowing down to brothers, and being humiliated?

That makes sense.

And what are these "initiation rites" you speak of? I didn't realize I had to be physically and emotionally harassed in order to grow up.Did I say anything about drinking too much, bowing down to brothers, being humiliated or being physically and emotionally harassed? No. (Well, actually I did when I said just a few posts back that I think hazing is wrong and that I support my fraternity's policies on hazing.)

You're reading things into what I said that aren't there.

Read the post to which I linked a few posts back in this thread (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?p=304721) and you'll see the kind of thing I'm talking about.

As for the initiation rites, take an anthropology class or read up on the Greek mysteries. Or you might read up on vision quests. ;)

(Actually, my fraternity's manual for probationary members has a very good section on ritual and initiation rites/rites of passage. I don't have my copy handy, but when my copy and I are in the same place, I'll take a look at it and see if there's anything worth posting here.)

[LPIDelta]

I think you are missing the point (and certain parts :D).

First, primal doesn't mean Neanderthal. It means fundamental or deep-seated -- way down in and integral to our psychological make-up.

Second, because our culture doesn't offer standard "initiation rites" that mark the transition from childhood to adulthood for men (not sure it does for women either), a vacuum is created that groups like fraternities step in to fill.

Third, I think most fraternities, in some way or another, say they are about making better men -- not just gentlemen, but better men. So there is built into the fraternal experience the idea of being the best man you can be. And in some ways on a deep psychological level, being the best man you can be requires proving yourself -- to yourself and to those whom you hope to have accept you as a peer. There is more than a grammatical difference in "joining" a fraternity, as you put it, and "being accepted" into a fraternity.

I'll readily agree that doesn't necessarily line up with excuses to haze. I'll also agree that there is hazing and then there is hazing. My point is, though, that I think hazing started because of this inborn need to prove one's self through some kind of ordeal. We can never successfully get rid of hazing unless we understand the psychology that underlies it and find other, more appropriate, ways to meet that need.

Well stated. :) But unfortunately, the average college male doesn't think this way.... still, a good discussion point on what it will take to deal with hazing.

[Jim_Hoegaarden]

Ok, I'm a DU like Mystic, and seriously, there is a reason that Nationally DU sucks...but there is also a reason why my chapter doesn't, we have a pedgeship that is difficult. Every fraternity has rules agaisnt hazing that is broken in some form or another. Hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make sense.

LPIdelta, I don't care what you think. It does work, get over it.

Same goes for you AST.

[ASTalumna06]

I'm going to refer to about 10 posts ago, when I put up that long blog entry. Read it if you haven't already, and read it again if you have. You don't know you you're recruiting. You meet people, you make small talk with them, you have a couple weeks (if that) to get to know them, and then you start hazing them. You don't know intimate details about their lives, you don't truly know what kind of person they are, and you don't know if even the smallest thing you do can affect them.

People who support hazing say that if a person can't handle the pressure and hard work, then they're not worth being in the fraternity/sorority. That's kind of sad. What you're essentially saying, is that if Joe Schmoe received a bid, started your new member program, even if he has impressive grades, is on the baseball team, is involved with student government, and volunteers twice a week at a soup kitchen, you won't think twice about turning him away from your organization because he doesn't want to be hazed and "can't handle it"?

Does that make sense?

[nittanyalum]

Ok, I'm a DU like Mystic, and seriously, there is a reason that Nationally DU sucks...
pssst... MysticCat is not a DU...

[LPIDelta]

Ok, I'm a DU like Mystic, and seriously, there is a reason that Nationally DU sucks...but there is also a reason why my chapter doesn't, we have a pedgeship that is difficult. Every fraternity has rules agaisnt hazing that is broken in some form or another. Hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make sense.

If you think your organization "sucks" then I am sure they wouldn't mind if you disaffiliated. And I am sure your blantant disregard for hazing policies and your willingness to jeopardize the welfare of the entire organization by your actions is another reason your "suck"y brothers wouldn't mind.

And thank you for proving the point that hazing doesn't work. You didn't join a chapter--you joined an entire organization. It will only take one mega lawsuit because someone died or was injured to bring the entire organization down. A mature adult recognizes this fact and adjusts their actions accordingly. If your pledgeship worked as well as you say it did, you would have learned to think of your organization and the welfare of your brothers first, and your own selfish need to make others prove themselves would not be part of the picture. Isn't that what it's all about--brotherhood first?

[Tinia2]

Ok, I'm a DU like Mystic, and seriously, there is a reason that Nationally DU sucks...but there is also a reason why my chapter doesn't, we have a pledge-ship that is difficult. Every fraternity has rules against hazing that is broken in some form or another. Hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make sense.

LPIdelta, I don't care what you think. It does work, get over it.

Same goes for you AST.
at post 133 we get to the point where just about every thread in rm gets to. hazing is hazing is hazing. good vs evil. what is the real point of it and what is the real definition of it.

however the line of hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make {some} sense sure does seem to be a rather circular and self serving argument.

jm-get over it yourself. and perhaps read some of the postings not only here, as suggested, but elsewhere in rm thread. from my own observations, both here and personally, hazing can start out rather innocently, simple and mild with good intent and intentions. but it seems as if all too many times, all too often there is no one watching the watchers. and matters hit that rather slippery slope downward. and then it becomes a routine, and regimen. with reasons, rationals, and excuses. and excesses. and cover-ups. however, this is only my point of view. which, of course, is based on my observations and experiences. i know, all too well, that others have experienced life differently and see this issue differently and in a different light.

[MysticCat]

pssst... MysticCat is not a DU...Thanks, NA! ;)

at post 133 we get to the point where just about every thread in rm gets to. hazing is hazing is hazing. good vs evil. what is the real point of it and what is the real definition of it.As we've discussed on GC before, I think this gets to the real crux of the issue and to why general hazing discussions so often go nowhere. There is no agreed upon definition of hazing. We have some people who define hazing as things like forced consumption of large amounts of alcohol but not, say, being required to drive for brothers, We have others who define hazing as anything that distinguishes between pledges/new members and initiated members, including forbidding new members from wearing letters. And then we have the the full spectrum in between, including those who distinguish between "permissible" hazing and "impermissible" hazing.

It doesn't help for the purposes of this kind of discussion to say "look at legal definitions" or school/GLO policies -- they're all over the map, too.

As a result, we end up talking past each other.

[one800thekiller]

first of all....this biggest problem with hazing is that the word hazing....is defined so loosely......

what could be considered hazing on a strict campus could be overlooked completely on another.....


I mean..where can you really draw that line?

I would argue that the line is crossed when personal safety is at stake.....to a fairly high degree....

and even with that as the definition there is so much leeway.....

But I am a firm believer that people do have a choice in there actions.....and if they start to haze....no one is stopping you from leaving?

[one800thekiller]

nope

no one knows what your sayin crazy...because you aren't speaking english

your speaking some kind of ghetto gibberish there dude

[OTW]

nope

no one knows what your sayin crazy...because you aren't speaking english

your speaking some kind of ghetto gibberish there dude

At least he knows how to properly use a period.

Your (possessive) is not the same as You're (You Are).

[Psi U MC Vito]

first of all....this biggest problem with hazing is that the word hazing....is defined so loosely......

what could be considered hazing on a strict campus could be overlooked completely on another.....


I mean..where can you really draw that line?

I would argue that the line is crossed when personal safety is at stake.....to a fairly high degree....

and even with that as the definition there is so much leeway.....

But I am a firm believer that people do have a choice in there actions.....and if they start to haze....no one is stopping you from leaving?

I would have to disagree with that statement. Hazing can take many forms. Sure you have the physical which you seem to be referencing, but you also have sexual, emotional and mental abuse. Hazing is anything that can cause ANY harm to a person. Any harm at all, but you seem to be saying that only when great physical harm is possible. I don't understand that thinking as the other kinds could be just as damaging if not more so.

[Tom Earp]

To put it basically it is stupid and against the law!:rolleyes:

So, when a chapter is closed as so many are because of Hazing which is against the law of many states and HQs then guess what, it must be wrong!

If some are not aware of this, how stupid does this make them?:rolleyes:

Screw up, get caught, and get booted off of school and out of GLO!

Who is smart now?:o

[one800thekiller]

Meaningless Hazing is completely pointless, but not speaking from experience from the fraternity, but speaking from hazing done during my high school sports team, there is a point..........and please...define hazing...

because honestly.....hazing is just a word that gets thrown around...without a proper definition.


hazing is illegal because people aren't being responsible about it..

of course if you make someone drink an abundance of water...something bad could happen, but at the same time there are other things, that take the safety of the pledges into consideration.

And as I have stated before, no one is forcing ANYONE to do ANYTHING....if they so choose to stay and not walk out...then that is their decision.

I am not saying I am for nor against it...but i don't believe in the criminalization of it.

[one800thekiller]

I would have to disagree with that statement. Hazing can take many forms. Sure you have the physical which you seem to be referencing, but you also have sexual, emotional and mental abuse. Hazing is anything that can cause ANY harm to a person. Any harm at all, but you seem to be saying that only when great physical harm is possible. I don't understand that thinking as the other kinds could be just as damaging if not more so.


I will agree that mental(which is emotional) and sexual(which is a possibility i didn't take into consideration when writing my previous post) could be just as damaging.


The mental "damage" is ..quite literally all in your head.
The only time i could see that as permanent damage to a person is if you don't complete the pledge process....if you have...and your brothers except you as a brother...you realize WHY the pledge process is what it is

[ree-Xi]

I will agree that mental(which is emotional) and sexual(which is a possibility i didn't take into consideration when writing my previous post) could be just as damaging.


The mental "damage" is ..quite literally all in your head.
The only time i could see that as permanent damage to a person is if you don't complete the pledge process....if you have...and your brothers except you as a brother...you realize WHY the pledge process is what it is


So "mental damage" is ok as long as you are initiated and the "reasons" are explained to you?

I think that your overall argument is weak and you should probably just give up.

PS - it's ACCEPT, not except.

[ASTalumna06]

I will agree that mental(which is emotional) and sexual(which is a possibility i didn't take into consideration when writing my previous post) could be just as damaging.


The mental "damage" is ..quite literally all in your head.
The only time i could see that as permanent damage to a person is if you don't complete the pledge process....if you have...and your brothers except you as a brother...you realize WHY the pledge process is what it is


You're right. The mental damage IS in your head. That's why it's called MENTAL damage.

And permanent damage or not, it is hurting someone. You'd be surprised at how many people that can affect. Just because it didn't hurt you doesn't mean it isn't hurting someone else. And a lot of people won't say anything. And do you want to know why? Because you're guys, and you're taught not to show any emotion, and you're afraid to share feelings with other guys.

But I guarantee that there are guys, probably in your fraternity, who have been hurt by hazing. Because I've seen it happen, and I've had guys come to me to talk about it. And while they don't tell me exactly what is involved in the program, they are clearly upset about it, whether they get into the fraternity or not.

[PrettyBoy]

http://i3.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/fb/1e/71e4_1.JPG

[blkwebman1919]

As we've discussed on GC before, I think this gets to the real crux of the issue and to why general hazing discussions so often go nowhere. There is no agreed upon definition of hazing. We have some people who define hazing as things like forced consumption of large amounts of alcohol but not, say, being required to drive for brothers, We have others who define hazing as anything that distinguishes between pledges/new members and initiated members, including forbidding new members from wearing letters. And then we have the the full spectrum in between, including those who distinguish between "permissible" hazing and "impermissible" hazing.

It doesn't help for the purposes of this kind of discussion to say "look at legal definitions" or school/GLO policies -- they're all over the map, too.

As a result, we end up talking past each other.

MysticCat's statements are right on target. This is the real argument at the heart of the issue. :cool:
(BUMPing this post for emphasis before it got lost in the proverbial "shuffle")...

[one800thekiller]

So "mental damage" is ok as long as you are initiated and the "reasons" are explained to you?

I think that your overall argument is weak and you should probably just give up.

PS - it's ACCEPT, not except.



Mental damage is a joke.....
That is all their is too it. It is a joke.
The only people who are against the hazing are the ones that can't take it.
Hazing has been around as long as Collegiate Greeks, and it isn't going anywhere.
The fact that prissy boys can't cut it as a pledge, and resort to turning a fraternity in is nothing more than sad.
You want to build brotherly bonds, you have to sacrifice something.

Pledging isn't supposed to be easy......
It is supposed to be challenging, mentally and physically.

In all honesty....even a chapter who meaninglessly hazes, just because is still more than likely does less damage to a pledge, both physically and mentally) than what a new recruit from the army gets going through basic.

So, to wrap my little rant up, I will leave you with a quote...from ..fight club...

"It is not until we have lost everything, that we are truly free to do anything."

[ASTalumna06]

First of all, you're comparing apples to oranges.

You say that people go through this in the Army. But that is EXPECTED. The reason they go through physical training is so that they can be physically prepared to KILL PEOPLE and DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY. Not so that they can sit in chapter meetings and participate in philanthropies.

And if you seriously think that the physical training in the Army (which in turn results in emotional training), doesn't truly effect soldiers mentally in a negative way, then you obviously don't know anyone who has served their country.

And not to sound mean or anything, but aren't you the one who posted the thread a little while back asking for recruitment advice because your membership is down to 3 people?

Maybe you should re-evaluate what you're doing to your "pledges", or whatever you choose to call them, before you attempt to bring in a ton of new people.

[one800thekiller]

You're right. The mental damage IS in your head. That's why it's called MENTAL damage.

And permanent damage or not, it is hurting someone. You'd be surprised at how many people that can affect. Just because it didn't hurt you doesn't mean it isn't hurting someone else. And a lot of people won't say anything. And do you want to know why? Because you're guys, and you're taught not to show any emotion, and you're afraid to share feelings with other guys.

But I guarantee that there are guys, probably in your fraternity, who have been hurt by hazing. Because I've seen it happen, and I've had guys come to me to talk about it. And while they don't tell me exactly what is involved in the program, they are clearly upset about it, whether they get into the fraternity or not.




Your right, there have been guys who have been "hurt" by hazing.
That is the point.....to break them down...to make them realize its all in their head. They learn to trust their pledge brothers and there potential brothers...and in the end it all makes sense...there is a point to it all.
And, as i have previously stated, No one is forcing them to be there. Nor is anyone forcing them to do anything.


file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Devin/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgHowever, you are wrong about the guys not sharing. That is what so many people fail to realize. They assume that guys won't share anything. I have had meeting where my pledge brother broke down in tears, and thats the point.......to break them..and then rebuild them. That is the point in hazing, and that is something that I honestly don't expect anyone who hasn't been through it to understand.


But, until I hear it from someone who has been hazed, and doesn't see the greater good in it.....i refuse to believe that hazing(as long as there is a meaning behind it) is a negative thing. In fact, to be 100 percent honest, I don't believe that someone who hasn't been through it, really has the right to even talk about it as if they know anything about it.

In my opinion, people who haven't gone through a process with hazing, but are trying to talk about how harmful it is, don't have a clue.

I mean, can someone who has never played golf in their life accurately help you correct your golf swing?...more than likely not so much.

can someone who has never been stabbed with a knife..accurately describe the pain of being stabbed with one?

No..the person has not gone through it, and therefor has no real insight to the good, nor the evil of hazing

[ASTalumna06]

Um, I've never been stabbed with a knife, but I can tell you that it isn't a good thing.

Just like I haven't been hazed, but I can tell you that's not a good thing either.

And please, don't tell me what I do and don't know, because I have seen some people seriously upset and physically screwed up because of what was done to them. And you can sit here and say "they couldn't take it" all you want, but that says to me that you just don't care. And that's sad.

And I'm not going to continue to argue with you, because you refuse to address the things that I say (the Army analogy, your chapter struggling with recruitment) simply so that you can get your point across.

So I'm done.

End of story.

[one800thekiller]

Um, I've never been stabbed with a knife, but I can tell you that it isn't a good thing.

Just like I haven't been hazed, but I can tell you that's not a good thing either.

And please, don't tell me what I do and don't know, because I have seen some people seriously upset and physically screwed up because of what was done to them. And you can sit here and say "they couldn't take it" all you want, but that says to me that you just don't care. And that's sad.

And I'm not going to continue to argue with you, because you refuse to address the things that I say (the Army analogy, your chapter struggling with recruitment) simply so that you can get your point across.

So I'm done.

End of story.



OK, i will start with the stabbing comment.

No, you haven't been stabbed and you tell me it is a bad thing to be stabbed, but this is not based on experiences...its based on what you have heard.....

as far as hazing goes..it is an assumption that you have made in your head, a generalization if you will, that all hazing is bad. This is not based on life experience, but rather it is based on what others have told you.

Now, I am not arguing that ALL hazing is good, by any means. But there is a time and place where it is appropriate, and it is for the greater good of the organization.

As I said, being as you haven't experienced it first hand, i don't expect you to understand.

As far as people who complaining not being able to "cut it", i never said anything like that.

I would never dream of forcing a pledge to do something they didn't want to do, nor would i do something to put a pledges life or safety at risk.

As far as the army thing goes, once again, unless you have experienced the boot camp first hand, you have no...insight, and therefor your opinion on this is rather flawed. Thus, your argument on this is rather week.

You bash hazing because of what you have heard, not what you have experienced.

[ASTalumna06]

It just makes me laugh that you say that because I haven’t experienced it, I don’t understand. I understand plenty of what I haven’t experienced. And if you’re telling me that people ONLY learn through experience, then you’re sadly mistaken. Because I can tell you that to get stabbed is bad, I can tell you that if you jump out of an airplane, you will fall very quickly to the ground, and I can tell you that if you taunt a barracuda, there’s a pretty good chance he’ll bite your sorry ass. But I’ve never done any of those things.

You talk to me as if I have never heard a story about what other chapters do for hazing. I have heard first hand what some people do. And for some, running around campus, being covered in eggs, doing 500 push-ups, doing laundry for your big, and being otherwise belittled by the people who are supposed to be your “brothers”, etc., etc., etc., isn’t something that they’re willing to do to be part of an organization. And personally, I commend them for it.

Because I KNOW I wouldn’t want that done to me. And that’s not me being naïve because I haven’t experienced it. That’s not me not being able to handle it. That’s me making a personal choice based on the fact that I know those things suck. And I don’t have to prove myself to anyone by having them embarrass me and do things that may scar me emotionally.

I don’t haze anyone because I don’t pretend to know anyone. I don’t pretend to think that everyone is mentally healthy. Because THAT would be naïve. And I don’t pretend that nothing happens to anyone, ever.

Example: The mother of one of my sisters died last semester. This girl is a little more emotional than others in general, so when this happened, it took her a long time to even be able to come around the chapter because everyone was having a good time. SHE HAD A HARD TIME ENJOYING HERSELF because she almost thought she shouldn’t be happy. A lot of people do that when they lose a loved one, and if that happened to one of your pledges and you weren’t having fun, but instead were harassing him, I guarantee there’s a pretty good chance you could permanently push him away.

The only advice I can give you is not to assume that everyone is as “perfect” as you are. Everyone has their own issues to deal with, and everyone has pasts that you know nothing about. So to assume that you are above those who don’t want to be humiliated is rather pathetic in my opinion.

[MysticCat]

^^^ Why are you arguing with an idiot? If you really need to get it out of your system, you'd have more luck with a brick wall.

Some posters really are best ignored. ;)

[knight_shadow]

^^^ Why are you arguing with an idiot? If you really need to get it out of your system, you'd have more luck with a brick wall.

Some posters really are best ignored. ;)

Amen.

That viewpoint may very well be why his small town fraternity is in need of help (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=99193).

[ASTalumna06]

^^^ Why are you arguing with an idiot? If you really need to get it out of your system, you'd have more luck with a brick wall.

Some posters really are best ignored. ;)


Yes, but I enjoy looking intelligent :)

[ASTalumna06]

Amen.

That viewpoint may very well be why his small town fraternity is in need of help (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=99193).



And yes, I just found that. It was him. I even commented on that post to try and help him. haha

[MysticCat]

Yes, but I enjoy looking intelligent :)Arguing with a brick wall doesn't make you look intelligent. ;)

[ASTalumna06]

Hm... yea, yelling at brick walls would probably make me look crazy :p

Funny thing is, in the middle of me typing that last post, he sent me a PM begging me to respond to his post.

He begs for attention, says that I don't know that getting stabbed is bad because I haven't experienced it, asks for recruitment help in another thread because their chapter has 3 members, and then wonders why people tell him not to haze.

damn.

[one800thekiller]

It just makes me laugh that you say that because I haven’t experienced it, I don’t understand. I understand plenty of what I haven’t experienced. And if you’re telling me that people ONLY learn through experience, then you’re sadly mistaken. Because I can tell you that to get stabbed is bad, I can tell you that if you jump out of an airplane, you will fall very quickly to the ground, and I can tell you that if you taunt a barracuda, there’s a pretty good chance he’ll bite your sorry ass. But I’ve never done any of those things.

You talk to me as if I have never heard a story about what other chapters do for hazing. I have heard first hand what some people do. And for some, running around campus, being covered in eggs, doing 500 push-ups, doing laundry for your big, and being otherwise belittled by the people who are supposed to be your “brothers”, etc., etc., etc., isn’t something that they’re willing to do to be part of an organization. And personally, I commend them for it.

Because I KNOW I wouldn’t want that done to me. And that’s not me being naïve because I haven’t experienced it. That’s not me not being able to handle it. That’s me making a personal choice based on the fact that I know those things suck. And I don’t have to prove myself to anyone by having them embarrass me and do things that may scar me emotionally.

I don’t haze anyone because I don’t pretend to know anyone. I don’t pretend to think that everyone is mentally healthy. Because THAT would be naïve. And I don’t pretend that nothing happens to anyone, ever.

Example: The mother of one of my sisters died last semester. This girl is a little more emotional than others in general, so when this happened, it took her a long time to even be able to come around the chapter because everyone was having a good time. SHE HAD A HARD TIME ENJOYING HERSELF because she almost thought she shouldn’t be happy. A lot of people do that when they lose a loved one, and if that happened to one of your pledges and you weren’t having fun, but instead were harassing him, I guarantee there’s a pretty good chance you could permanently push him away.

The only advice I can give you is not to assume that everyone is as “perfect” as you are. Everyone has their own issues to deal with, and everyone has pasts that you know nothing about. So to assume that you are above those who don’t want to be humiliated is rather pathetic in my opinion.



AS i said, i'm not one to say that doing laundry, or pushups, or being covered with eggs serves a higher purpose, because it doesn't........at least not to my knowledge?

I am just stating that it is an assumption on your part that all hazing is bad.
That is all. I am not saying anything about learning simply by doing. I am saying that unless you have experienced something like hazing first hand, you are putting a certain amount of trust in someone else, in that everything they are telling you is true and accurate.

As far as not knowing a pledges past, and therefor they could be mentally unstable......we are a small enough organization that we get to know the potentials long before even the rush party.

In reference to your concern for pushing pledges away because of how we treat them, i agree.

In pledging it is a constant push-pull system

you pull them in, and then you push them away, and then you pull them in again..thats just how it happens

If a major issue has happened in a pledges life, i'm aware of it as soon as it happens, and i will deal with it appropriately.

That is what most people don't understand. Yes, there might be hazing in certain organizations, but as soon as a brother(or eve a pledge) is going through a tough time, EVERY MEMBER is right there with them, ready to help in ANY way possible. I do take care of my pledges, and I do take care of my brothers.

My fraternity isn't nearly as concerned with quantity as we are quality...
I would rather have 3 pledges make it through..and them be the ones that worked their asses of and put there heart and soul into the process..and their trust into the brotherhood than i would 15 people who half assed an easier less demanding process

[ASTalumna06]

The whole point is you make it so hard for them, and you only have 3 people come through, in order to do... what?

To go to meetings, to participate in philanthropies and fundraisers, and then to... haze the next class.

There's just no point. And there's no point in arguing.

I give up.

[one800thekiller]

The whole point is you make it so hard for them, and you only have 3 people come through, in order to do... what?

To go to meetings, to participate in philanthropies and fundraisers, and then to... haze the next class.

There's just no point. And there's no point in arguing.

I give up.



We make it hard because we want the best of the best....we have had so many people attempt and fail, and we like that.

We get as many people to pledge as we can, and the process weeds them out. Thats how it has been for many many years and that is how it will remain... regardless off what people want to think

Perhaps it is an elitist point of view on my part, but we are about so much more than that..we have a brotherly bond, our alumni still stop by, we are a family, we watch each others back, we have a small army behind us on ANYTHING we need done, all of my brothers, even the ones that i have yet to meet, would do anything for me at the drop of a hat.

your right there is no point in arguing and i apologize for even trying to defend hazing, because in todays day and age, greeks as they were once known, are a dying breed..and it took me to find this forum to realize it.


P.S.-please don't take my posts personally, regardless of what post or topic it is. I am a Political-Science major, and there is nothing more in this world I love more than a good argument.

[ASTalumna06]

I was a poli sci major, too. I think I've just learned to back down sometimes. Because otherwise, my friends get mad at me for arguing my point til I'm blue in the face :rolleyes:

^^ find it funny that I typed that and the smiley face that I wanted to use is blue :p

[one800thekiller]

haha..that is kind off ironic that you typed a blue face after that, and unfortunately, I have yet to learn that level of self control, I enjoy a good argument wayyy too much..sometimes i get a bit carried away though haha

[DIVA1177]

http://i3.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/fb/1e/71e4_1.JPG

I just wanted to say that is REALLY PRETTY. On the real.

[chettyg100]

I know, in looking for a group to try and pledge with, I don't feel I want to be hazed.

I think when I get into college I am kind of an adult while young, not stupid.

Ar 6' 3' and 185 pounds I do not feel good about someone beating on me or making me do things that I do not care for!

I wonder if greek life is like this why should I care about joining?

[Kevin]

The five previous posts were deleted. Please try and keep conversation at least marginally on-topic. Thanks.

[SoYouWannaGoGrk]

Some really good stuff in here, I see both sides of the argument.

[Lady4Fortitude]

Wrong! Hazing began well before WWII. Read the history of kapsi, aphia, qpsiphi, and you will see it began well before then. Anyone in a BGLO to ever be angry at slavery would make you a hypocrite. Beating down your own folk!! You should be ashamed.

You are correct when you say that hazing began before WWII but incorect in its meaning. Back even before slavery, there was a reason why Africans stayed so close knit to those who looked like them, not only because they could partially understand each other because when they were chained together with the other 114 different tribes and clans of people, they fought and looked out for each other. This is what hazing is modeled after, it creates a bond between you and your lb or ls when you protect them from any danger or harm as they will always return the favor. Africans were chained with people they may or may not have known but they had to to work together in order to survive.

[MysticCat]

^^^ Pssst. That post is 8 years old. I don't think Melchisedic, who never actually registered as a user, is around to read it.

[DrPhil]

This is what hazing is modeled after

ORLY?

[Senusret I]

What's the word for that thing when you give a new meaning to something after the fact?

[PrettyBoy]

I just wanted to say you are REALLY PRETTY. On the real.
Thanks. I get that compliment quite often. :D

[DIVA1177]

Thanks. I get that compliment quite often. :D

I see you changing my quote :p

[direstraits]

I'm currently on line now as an underground pledge in my school (since any form of pledging here is illegal). And I'm coming up against hazing which I think is being taken extremely out of hand. My heart and soul are in this but I don't think my body can take much more abuse, and we haven't even made it to the pledge class yet! I don't want to drop but I don't want to end up in the hospital either....I honestly don't know what to do.

[Kevin]

Your organization probably has a hazing prevention hotline. I'd go that route first.

Really though, by continuing to cover this up, you're risking your academic career and even potential criminal liability.

Your call though. Good luck.

[33girl]

Your organization probably has a hazing prevention hotline. I'd go that route first.


if they're underground, it's not their org.

[Kevin]

if they're underground, it's not their org.

Depends on what he meant by underground. You can be underground with your school, but a bona fide member of your organization.

[33girl]

Depends on what he meant by underground. You can be underground with your school, but a bona fide member of your organization.

I know, but I just got the vibe that his school doesn't permit any sort of pledge activities for anybody ever - like Greek orgs as a whole are not just unrecognized but you can get kicked out for being in them. YMMV.

[Psi U MC Vito]

I know, but I just got the vibe that his school doesn't permit any sort of pledge activities for anybody ever - like Greek orgs as a whole are not just unrecognized but you can get kicked out for being in them. YMMV.
Or it is possible the school believes in the Insta-cross school of thought. essentially you get a bid and are initiated right away.

[direstraits]

yeah my school thinks in that way. i understand working for you letters but i dont understand mindless violence...

[AyUaxe]

I put it this way--why would any organization want members with so little self-respect that they would tolerate being hazed? Why would anyone have so little self-respect as to want to join an organization that betrayed its own "brothers" by hazing? To me, once it's in that perspective, the right answers become clear.

[Preston327]

I put it this way--why would any organization want members with so little self-respect that they would tolerate being hazed? Why would anyone have so little self-respect as to want to join an organization that betrayed its own "brothers" by hazing? To me, once it's in that perspective, the right answers become clear.
This, a thousand times. This group whose informational I went to put hazing to the PNMs this way: "nobody who will haze you is worthy of being called your brother, and nobody who will allow themselves to be hazed is worthy of being a brother." That's my personal policy in a nutshell.

My personal opinion on new member education is that it should do three things:

1. Teach new members about the history and traditions of your organization, their expectations as a member and the like.

2. Help new members build a connection and bond with their fellow new members and brothers of their organization.

3. Help new members acclimate to and become involved in what's going on with their university. This is especially important with incoming Freshmen.

If more groups took the approach of "what can we do to help our new members become at home with their organization and new community" instead of "what can we do to test these guys and see how badly they want to be members" I think you'd see a much improved reputation of Greek life in general.