Wood [Archive] - GreekChat.com Forums

Charle

04-13-2000, 09:31 AM

Even though i hated my time "in the cut" now i can see where it created adversity so that the pledges would be forced to bond together (or the line would break up). It was a time of "testing" so that you knew that your line brothers/sisters would "bump" for you in a time of need and it taught the individual line members to carry their share of the task. Even though your heartwarming gifts ( paddles with turtles on them..lol) sounds "hunky dori" i am secure with the knowledge that my "sands" with be there for me in the most dire time of need (Because we were tested with adversity when online (taking wood was just one of the obstacles)). Every rite of passage has ( or should have) some type of "stress" test, to see how strong the bond is. Marriages/relationships have stress tests. Families have stress tests. Lifelong Fraternal organizations should have stress test also. If someone is to be my lifelong Fraternal brother then i need to know that that person can handle extreme pressures and adverse conditions (wood is just one of the techniques). I personally dont want fair weathered (or untested) friends sharing a Fraternal bond with me.

ZetaAce

04-13-2000, 11:44 AM

Charle:

In response to your comment:"Even though your heartwarming gifts ( paddles with turtles on them..lol) sounds "hunky dori"

I doubt that your big brothers taught you to mock the traditions of other organizations while you were on line. How would you feel if someone mocked the traditions of your organization? I'm sure you would be pissed and would rather they not speak about something they know nothing about. I am a member of Zeta Phi Beta (obviously) and I don't know anything about Delta Zeta's traditions, but I'm willing to bet that the gifts given to them by their sister's mean as much as the gifts given to you by your prophytes.

It is also unfair to question their bond because they didn't 'get in the cut'.

Zeta Ace

[This message has been edited by ZetaAce (edited April 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ZetaAce (edited April 13, 2000).]

LXAAlum

04-13-2000, 01:21 PM

Dang it Yoda, you took the words right out of my mouth - absolutely, if you feel confident enough in a person to give them a bid, by all means that should mean you will take the responsibility to stand by them as a brother. Otherwise, the bid goes out on false pretenses, NOT a brotherly thing to do.

Taking wood takes ideals out of your bond - in my opinion, it is a perverted form of abuse. A brotherhood not built on the true ideals of it's founders is a brotherhood that will in the end fail. I'm sure your national organization would find the fact you "took wood" is not congruent with what you were supposed to experience. You've been cheated out of true respect, dignity, integrity, and any of the other TRUE ideals of a fraternal organization.

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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

Charle

04-13-2000, 02:48 PM

Recieving "a bid" is a right and priveledge to be evaluated and be tested. Just because someone recieves "a bid" (i went to something called a "smoker")does not entitle him to skate into my Frat. If a brother invites someone to one of our "smokers" he does so with his reputation on the line. The "priveldge" to be tested (recieving a bid) to see if he is worthy. Recieving a bid is only the beginning, and it should remain that. I dont want a non tested individual in my midst. Thats why , in my Frat, we continue to test brothers (even after they have crossed the sands) to make sure that they dont drop below the standard. Shall I say brotherhood conditioning. And no brother is exempt. It refreshing to see even the famous bruhs (NFL, NBA, Movie stars)join in the festivities of brotherhood ( on my level). I am glad i didnt join any weak shit.

mgdzkm433

04-13-2000, 03:14 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way about my oranization. My paddle was a gift to me on the night I was initiated. We all recieved our paddles the night we were initiated. Despite what you think, my bond with my sisters is very strong. Two of my sisters will be brides maids in my upcoming wedding. the other two are friends that I have had since grade school. I've been out of school now for 2 years, and I am still close to the two sisters that are to be in my wedding (and we are in different states), and I am sending invitations to all the sisters and to the members that came after I was gone. After 2 years, I still call and e-mail a lot of my sisters, and I visit every year. So, I don't think my bond is not strong or is lacking because I didn't take a beating when I pledged. But you can have whatever opinion you want. I wouldn't want to be the person responsible for physically or emotionally hurting someone just to find out if they would pass a "stress test." But hey, that's just me. Marriages and friendships do have "stress tests," but they certainly are not planned, and they don't involve beating each other or degrading each other. AND if they do, those people who commit such acts are not worth the pleather their shoes are made of. We put people behind bars who beat their spouses and beat their friends or strangers. We file lawsuits against people who degrade us. Marriages and friendships do take "stress tests," but they are not intentional. They also are formed on faith and trust. People don't trust someone who hurts them, both physically or mentally. Wife beaters aren't trusted by their spouses. . .hense restraining orders. That's why we have private shelters for the physically and mentally abused. Yeah, marriages and friendships do take "stress tests," but the minute my boyfriend lays a hand on me, he better watch out, cause he's gotta sleep sometime and my grandma gave me a cast iron skillet. If I wouldn't let someone I love hit me, I'll be damned it I'm gonna let some people in my sorority, just so I can prove myself worthy of their organization.

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Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

[This message has been edited by mgdzkm433 (edited April 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by mgdzkm433 (edited April 13, 2000).]

LXAAlum

04-13-2000, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charle:
[B]"Recieving "a bid" is a right and priveledge to be evaluated and be tested."
http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif
Isn't the whole purpose of rush/recruitment/intake to be to evaluate the worthiness/compatibility of an individual to see if he at first meets up to the standards of membership, and to be a desirable member of your bond? If not, why do such a disservice to someone who might fit in better with another organizations ideals?

"Thats why , in my Frat, we continue to test brothers (even after they have crossed the sands) to make sure that they dont drop below the standard. Shall I say brotherhood conditioning."
http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif
Where does "getting the cut" fit into this? How does this tie into teaching about the fraternity ideals? Does this teach dignity? Respect (not to be confused with fear)? Integrity? What ideals does someone learn about being physically abused? There are far more positive bonding experiences avaiable than to cop out to beating respect out of people...

"It refreshing to see even the famous bruhs (NFL, NBA, Movie stars)join in the festivities of brotherhood ( on my level)."
http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif
Just because someone enjoys celebrity status does not forgive them of the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES of a true brother (one that lives up to the ideals of your Ritual on a day-to-day basis). In fact, they should be held to a higher standard. We see in the media all to frequently the allegations of hazing in fraternities...imagine the feeding frenzy that would be created if a "celebrity" were found to be in attendance....is that the kind of publicity your organization wants and desires?

" I am glad i didnt join any weak shit"
http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif
I'm not doubting you joined anything weak - but don't confuse hazing with strength. Hazing is most often carried out by people with low self-esteem (why else would you physically BEAT on someone you are going to call a BROTHER for LIFE?).

I doubt you will agree with me, but, I see this as a lack of focus on the true ideals, traditions, and purposes of membership in your organization. It's one thing to be proud of what you stand for, but another to arrogantly defend practices that not only state laws find illegal, but fly in the face of the true ideals of your order.

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif

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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 13, 2000).]

Charle

04-13-2000, 03:46 PM

Good insight. However I have been fortunate enough to join both "Difficult" AND "Paper" organizations. The difficult (My Frat, Airborne School, Ranger School). And the paper (there are plenty of them out there that you just pay your money to and get a certificate in the mail). I get much greater pride in the organizations that i joined that i had to sacrifice something for. Everyone is different. I chose not to take the easy route. Peace

LXAAlum

04-13-2000, 04:04 PM

Charle, Military conditioning should not be confused with fraternity hazing - I was in the military as well, and I was hazed rather extensively both in boot camp and in certain ceremonies (shellback, bluenose, etc...). None of it was to the point where I truly feared for life or limb, I nevertheless was NOT impressed by the people who carried the activities out. They generally had little regard for others feelings, and took pleasure in the fact others suffered (in the ceremonies). In boot camp, well, what can I say? What happens, happens; and there are generally good reasons behind it. These reasons, however, have NO parallel to civilian, college life in my opinion.

While the military has a goal to keep you from getting killed, and making you part of the unit (indistinguishable from the other individuals) - I don't believe fraternities should do the same.

I don't personally know of any "paper" GLO's other than honor or professional societies. I agree, membership has to be earned, but then again, so does respect. Hazing is a barrier to earning respect. I hope you understand, and think the next time you get to give wood - why are you doing it? How accountable are you as a brother prepared to be if, God forbid, something goes wrong?

Peace...

Artimis

04-13-2000, 07:25 PM

Most greek organizations are far from "here's my money - where's my membership certificate and friends". They demained much of their memebers both in terms of service to the organization and also to the community. I spent a majority of my time "non-greek" during college. My last two semester, I became "greek". None of my club i was invovled with could compare to the dedication that was freely given to my sisters and my sisterhood

Personally, my candidate period wasn't easy. We had much to accomplish and some sacrifices had to be made along the way. And by sacrfices, I mean time spent towards the sorority rather then studying or "playing".
Our dedication was given because we believed in our goals and ideals not because we saw physical or mental abuse. We were helping to build a sisterhood on our campus. While some might rank who did what towards our founding as important - it doesn't negate the fact that we are all sisters!

Each sister that has entered our sisterhood since has continued to contribute to the sisterhood. None of them experienced hazing, and none will. And as I find the occasion to visit the sisterhood and get to know the newer sisters, I take joy in knowing that they uphold the values of our sisterhood not because they endured hazing, but rather because they proved themselves by giving of themselves to the sisterhood - dedicating their time to promoting our values, to fostering friendships between sisters.

I am always proud to call them sisters!

Jennifer

Jenn

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Beta Chapter Alumna and Founder
Alpha Sigma Kappa - Women in Technical Studies
http://alpha-sigma-kappa.ou.edu/
http://www.alpha-sigma-kappa.org

SigEpYoda

04-14-2000, 12:25 AM

Hmm, interesting discussion. I know my founding fathers, god rest their souls, didn't go through any type of pledging whatsoever. Neither did the first class. They may have been hazed for the Freshman - Sophmore thing, but not in the fraternity. Also, no where in my ritual does it say that push up or sit ups is a neccesity to be a brother. I'm sure it's the same with everybody. Also in the case of the by-laws and constitution. Or even the charters. I'll admit, I got hazed and I hazed. That was about 7 years ago. Since then, my chapter has adopted a strict no hazing policy by eliminating pledging all together. Does it mean the new brothers are less of a brothers then us old schooler? No, in fact I could honestly say that they are more loyal to our fraternity. Hazing is not a method to build up loyalty. If you are weeding out the weak, then you should have joined the Marines. If you think they are not worthy, don't give 'em bids. After all, if they receive their bids, obviously they are worthy to stand by you as a brother.

By the way, check out http//:www.stophazing.org. It's a great organization that not only focus on GLOs hazing, but also athletic and the military.

SigEpYoda

04-14-2000, 03:39 AM

For hazing, if you won't take the ethics side, consider the economic side. Millions of dollars are being payed in settlement against the National Organizations, the Schools, and each individual members. THose millions of dollars could have been used for programs to make the chapter better. Such as computers for the house, seminars for seniors to get a job, etc. For the schools, the potential are great. And members, well, you won't get what you always wanted. It will probably forced you into bankruptcy.

Insurance premium are extremely high. In fact, we are put in the same category as Bars and other high risk groups. I don't know what the premiums currently are, but when I was active, we were paying around $60 per man. That is an extra $60 that I don't have. Plus national and local dues. It's a big bite in my finance. I don't regret it, but wish it could be lower.

Due to higher premiums and settlement, the biggest threat to GLOs aren't administration, it's economic. The way we are going, pretty soon it'll be cheaper to own a BMW then to join a fraternity. And guess which one most people would choose. GLOs will be bankrupt unless this unethical and illegal practices are eliminated. I'm not talking bout little stuff like making 'em wear pins, I'm talking bout the high risk such as running through the campus with only boxers in sub-zero temperature. Basic philosophy: If you won't let your sons or father do 'em, don't tell somebody else to do it.

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Try Not . . . Do

Charle

04-14-2000, 09:47 AM

I never feared life or limb when i pledged.
"Remember you facing just what other men have met"

The military takes a certain level of "dedication" and has its methods of "testing".

So does my Frat.

Some choose to "walk the walk" , others dont.

Thats cool with me.

Every one has their limits ( including me).

Case in point. Has anyone ever heard of the masonic (Scottish Rite, Prince Hall, Eastern Star) term "riding the goat"? (?beastiality?) . I am not a Mason but i have heard Masons refer to it. I definitely wouldnt want to go there. But interesting enough, all but two of our past presidents were Masons. Interesting. Was/Is "riding the goat" an ancient ritual. We all have limits dont we? What other "hazing" takes place in Masonic ceromonies?

Every organization (Masonic, Military, Relgious, Fraternal) has its "ritual" requirements.

"Eight men thoroughly immersed are a far greater asset than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm

LXAAlum

04-14-2000, 10:53 AM

Don't confuse Ritual requirements with some of the hazing that occurs - I doubt "getting the cut" is referred to in any way in your actual initiation ceremony (unless there is something in the book that expressly forbids paddling/hazing).

Pledging requirements are so often contradictory to what is in our actual Rituals. That is a big problem - to go through some of the "initiation" activities prior to the true Ritual can leave new members confused as to what is right, and what means more to members - the message is all to often not to take the Ritual seriously, for the pledging activities take much more time and effort to carry out.

Ironically, you may notice that some of the pledging and/or pre-initiation activities (don't confuse the two) change on a rather frequent basis - but I'll bet good money that your initiation Ritual has changed very little, or not at all, since its original drafting, however long ago that may be.

Our Rituals are timeless, and, I'll bet are very similar in the messages they contain about how to live life, every day, to become a true brother/sister, and better person. The goal is to strive to meet the ideals - not to confuse members with activities that contradict what they should truly be learning.

You stated that you hated your time "in the cut" - yet you learned some valuable lessons as a result. My question is, even though lessons were learned, you hated it - can you develop some other form of "new member education" that would teach the same lessons, and remove the hatred? Would members get more out of the education with the fear and intimidation factor removed?

I think you will find in organizations where hazing is prevalent, and extreme, that the initiated membership is less active in the chapter than other comparitively similar organizations that do not haze. The only good I seem to have gotten from your perspective on hazing is that it brought your line/class tigthly together. However, shouldn't membership in a fraternity create bonds among ALL members, not just your class. This creates chapters with eight separate "cliques". There are so many more other methods of bonding membership than some sort of "bonding stress test." It creates the wrong kind of bond if only the new members are expected to get together.

Mikki was very right about marriage's stress tests - they are not either planned or intentional (I'm coming up on my 9 year anniversary) - but you learn as you grow with each other (as an overall team, not segmented) on how to get through the tough times. (By the way Mikki - loved the line about Grandma's iron skillet - my wife inherited a large wooden rolling pin....same philosophy applies, and I've never put her in the position to use it either http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif )

I'm still interested in your response to the last question I posted - if you, on the other side of the line now, are going to "give" wood - how will you justify it? (Tradition? Please give me something more creative ..), and most importantly, how accountable are you prepared to be as a BROTHER if, God forbid, something goes terribly wrong at an event you attend?

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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

Charle

04-14-2000, 01:29 PM

..........You stated that you hated your time "in the cut" - yet you learned some valuable lessons as a result. My question is, even though lessons were learned, you hated it - can you develop some other form of "new member education" that would teach the same lessons, and remove the hatred? Would members get more out of the education with the fear and intimidation factor removed?

i also "hated" doing physical training in the mornings when i was in the military. Just because i "hated" it mean that it should be taken out. I hated the 30 mile road marches. i hated the after duty hours "ceremonies" in the barracks. Maybe i used the term "hate" too loosly. I felt "fear and itimidation" before i jumped out of an airplane or rappelled out of a helicopter. Did going thru those things make me stronger? Maybe, maybe not.

Charle

04-14-2000, 01:39 PM

..............I think you will find in organizations where hazing is prevalent, and extreme, that the initiated membership is less active in the chapter than other comparitively similar organizations that do not haze. The only good I seem to have gotten from your perspective on hazing is that it brought your line/class tigthly together. However, shouldn't membership in a fraternity create bonds among ALL members, not just your class. This creates chapters with eight separate "cliques". There are so many more other methods of bonding membership than some sort of "bonding stress test." It creates the wrong kind of bond if only the new members are expected to get together.

.............Techniques differ from organization to organizaton. I would prefer to join a org. that has a more stringent selection process. If it candidate stage is too much for me to handle then i would not continue. If i can handle it, then i will bask in the glory that membership brings.

"Eight men thoroughly immersed are a far greater asset than 80 with lukewarm enthusiasm"

P.S. I have never given a pledge wood.

SilverTurtle

04-14-2000, 08:54 PM

LXA said
I don't personally know of any "paper" GLO's other than honor or professional societies

You know, my GLO is a member of the PFA (Professional Fraternity Assoc.). No, we don't haze. Yet we do go through pledging (now deemed 'new member education' at my school). As well as doing quite a lot of community service. Of course, there are social events as well.

I also know a little bit about Lambda Chi Alpha. It doesn't bother me to be called "paper" by people who praise hazing. (Our definitions are very different from each other). But it does bother me that a member of another non-hazing GLO would use that term. Not only am I not "paper", but I also know that none of the new members that I had the privelage to bring in (as their Pledgetrainer {now "new member educator"}) are "paper". They worked their butts off to get those letters, and the pride that goes with them. They didn't (and do not) just pay their dues and get a certificate. If you don't consider yourself or your GLO "paper", then you cannot consider mine "paper", either.

While I'm now an alumnae, you might want to visit my former chapter's site Phi Beta Fraternity / Phi Chapter (http://homepages.go.com/~phibetaphichapter/index.html) for clarification.

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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity (http://www.phibeta.com)

[This message has been edited by SilverTurtle (edited April 14, 2000).]

SilverTurtle

04-14-2000, 09:07 PM

Hey Mikki!

My GLO gets paddles, too. The week before initiation we have a "paddle party". It's so much fun.... the new members come to the chapter room where paddles, paint, glitter, glue, markers, etc. are available, and they get to decorate their own. (The idea behind this is that we are an arts fraternity, and it's a way for everyone to create some art within the fraternity). Sometimes actives will bring their paddles and touch them up.
This is a tradition that's been going on for as long as anyone can remember. Everyone usually got signatures of members on them, too. The back of mine's covered with them! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

I don't know of any sororities or professional GLO's that "take wood", but most do have paddles. Interesting, isn't it?

Some other examples: [list]
One local sorority on campus the bigs made paddles for their little's and presented them to them on their initiation night
A-Phi-O had the littles make them for the bigs (only chapter i've ever heard of this).. so you had to take a little before you got your paddle. The pledgeclass also made a paddle for their new member educator I think.
Our Phi Mu Alpha chapter had the pledges make their paddles (or maybe their bigs made them for them?).. but they had them the night of induction (first night after recieving bids).. there's were kind of cool because they had to get signatures of their pledgeclass, the actives, and all of the professors that were alumni of PMA, and their advisors. It was cool because there were so many professors that were alum.

FYI- Just so no one thinks I am sharing big secrets of other GLO's, these practices were (are) common knowledge among students and faculty.

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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity (http://www.phibeta.com)
Phi chapter (http://homepages.go.com/~phibetaphichapter/index.html)

mgdzkm433

04-15-2000, 09:07 PM

We have a chapter of Phi Mu Alpha at my alma mater. I can't even remember if they had paddles. . .but SAI(my music fraternity) has a lot to do with the Phi Mu Alpha's. We didn't do the paddle thing, but our bigs made books for us to keep stuff in. It was really cool.

I also wanted to comment on what you said. SAI, Professional Music Fraternity for Women, is one of the organizations I am an Alumni of. We were not "paper" either. We had to work hard for our letters. There was a lot more to it then just signing a piece of paper and getting my first t-shirt. I'm a bit disappointed in myself becuase I tend to answer more questions with the information I have gained due to my social sorority Delta Zeta, rather than incorporate what I've also learned from my Professional. I think it is because professionals are looked at with a little bit more regard and respect than socials. Because it can be misinterpreted that professional greek organizations have a purpose, where socials do not. . .of course that is a crock of sh*t, but sadly enough. . .that is how society views it. But I apologize for not incorporating what I've learned from my professional organization. I really should try to do that more.

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Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

LXAAlum

04-17-2000, 01:10 PM

Silver - regarding "paper" - I only used that term because I see too many references to it in this forum - I don't believe there are many "paper" GLO's other than one I belonged to in college (an honorary teaching organization) - I simply filled out an application, paid my fees, and watched the enrollment ceremony, and voila - I was a member.

I don't know why it is, but I see lot's of disparaging remarks about "paper" members, most notably by members of BGLO's - I'm not sure why, maybe it's just coincidence. It may have something to do with the underground pledging vs. normal MIP they are supposed to engage in - maybe it's a way of distinguishing themselves as being more "worthy" of membership. However, I've yet to hear a logically sound argument as to why "hard pledging" (or "non-paper") - in both instances I will make the assumption that a fairly moderate amount of hazing exists - makes a "better" member than a "non-hazing" organization. In fact, I believe just the opposite is true - hazing creates more divisions and problems than the unity and bonding that is professed by those who continue to haze. My experiences and the other posts I have seen here bear this out.

Sorry if I offended you, but I was trying to draw out the distinctions - I hope this clarifies it somewhat.

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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

SilverTurtle

04-17-2000, 07:17 PM

LXA-

I understand where you were coming from on the aspect of "paper". But it's a negative term that I hate seeing used, especially when you're trying to defend anti-hazing.

I'm a member of Order of Omega and that's paper. Literally, I signed, paid my dues, and that was that. Which is fine and appropriate for that kind of organization. I'm sure the professional organization you joined was similar... maybe some community service, too. But basically just something to recognize your achievements in that field + put on your resume.

The GLO I'm an alumnae of, however, is different. True, it's "professional" (and a member of PFA). But it's also very service oriented. It's other ambitions are developing scholarship, leadership, and brother/sisterhood. Doesn't this sound like the ideals of most GLO's to you? Social, service, or professional?

You're right when you say that BGLO (and some non-BLGO) members use the term "paper" to describe someone who didn't "earn" their letters (usually meaning going through pledging). So by calling members of service and professional GLO's "paper", you're saying that they didn't "earn" their letters. It's already been stated that those members who go through a new member ed or pledging period minus the hazing often have a lot more to prove and a lot more work than those who do experience pledging centered on hazing. If I remember correctly, you agreed with this basic statement. So by calling these Greeks "paper", you're saying they didn't earn their letters, when in fact, as you already know, they most likely did.

I guess I'm just asking you to use discretion when using negative comments/phrases (or words that can be percieved that way) when discussing others' GLO's. I think you would be offended if I said "I heard LXA's paper... they don't even call their pledges 'pledge'..!" (And I don't consider you guys paper because of the associate member program.. I call that leadership and forward thinking and an example.)

I hope that explains my view + why I was offended... and apology accepted http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif thank you!

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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity (http://www.phibeta.com)
Phi chapter (http://homepages.go.com/~phibetaphichapter/index.html)

LXAAlum

04-18-2000, 10:56 AM

Silver, Thanks for the post. However, I will disagree with you about Order of Omega being only a paper organization. You have to earn the right to membership by proving leadership and grades to be considered for membership - I think of Omega as a reward earned by diligent striving. Sure, once you're invited to join, there's not a lot of effort involved, but, just getting to the invitation takes amazing effort.

mgdzkm433

04-18-2000, 11:18 AM

awwww, how sweet. . .silver has another b/f. . .hehehe.

just kidding. . .LOL

Charle

04-18-2000, 11:51 AM

Watched TLC (The Learning Channel) last nite. Watched the Navy SEALs "candidates" go through their "Hell Week". The instuctors said that the sole purpose of the hazing ritual was to weed out the people who really didnt want to be Navy SEALS. Interesting concept huh? The people who really didnt want to be there quit and went home. No questions asked. The "instuctors" had the "candidates" perform menial tasks that had nothing to do with combat training. The only purpose of some of the tasks were to create confusion, instill the team work ethic, and to TOTALLY stress out the "candidate". Stuff like surf torture (submersion in hypothermia inducing water), boat pushup (Even after one of the members has passed out), sleep and food deprivation, and tons of abrasive sand on the body to rub the skin raw. Sounds like hazing to me. The instructors were qouted as saying that if a candidate couldnt hang thru "Hell Week" then he didnt want him in the brotherhood of the SEALS. Whats good enough for the Seals is not good enough for my organization? Who decides that? The SEAL candidates werent forced to stay. They could've left at anytime. Those that really wanted it stuck around. Did the very first Nave SEALS go thru “Hell Week” ? My Fraternities Founding Fathers didn’t go thru “Hell Week” either. But yet the SEALS see the purging process as necessary procedure. Does this ritual make the SEALS a better organization? Why cant my organization strive for the same level (or higher )of "brotherhood"?

LXAAlum

04-18-2000, 02:24 PM

Last time I checked, fraternity pledges were being trained for brotherhood, not "simulated combat conditions" as the SEAL Hell Week does. I saw the special on that last night also. I don't see the same parallels you do. Also, when SEAL recruits are pushed to the absolute physical and mental limits, and even beyond, they do have trained medical professionals who ensure injuries are addressed. Funny, but I've never seen an ambulance or paramedic unit invited to a hazing activity...

While military training is meant to ensure that you will not fail during actual combat (in other words, die, and have several of your shipmates die with you), fraternity pledging is to teach members what it means to be a brother, the history of the order, etc....in most cases, as most GLO's teach in their rituals, to live their life by Christian ideals.

Military training and fraternity education both have goals in educating new recruits/members. But the outcomes, the intent, and the methods should not be the same.

------------------
Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 18, 2000).]

LXAAlum

04-18-2000, 02:36 PM

Silver, just another quick clarification - Yes, I do believe letters should be earned - but the definition of "earning" is not the same as hazing. Earning letters means that you learn about your organization, what it means to other new members, brothers, and alumni, and how you fit in to the "big picture."

It also means to earn letters AFTER initiation - that you as a brother/sister/alumnus contribute just as much as new members, and, most importantly, that you try to live the ideals of your Ritual on a daily basis.

It does NOT mean that you subject yourself to humiliation, paddling, and other forms of physical and mental abuse. That is not brotherhood, it is subservience, and is 180 degrees out of the ideals of most all fraternal organizations. We become hypocrites when we try to defend hazing as a "positive experience." I've never heard anyone say they looked back on their pledge period as an "enjoyable experience" if hazing was involved. In fact, most people would say they became members "in spite of" the hazing.

Charle

04-18-2000, 06:39 PM

Simulated combat conditions?.....I guess building a monument/shrine for the instructors is a battlefield task. Not being allowed basic hygienge is battlefied task? Istructors shovelling sand on candidates is not hazing? Is shoveling sand on someone a battlefield task? Hmmmmmm. Or does it build a brotherhood cohesion when under stress?. Hmmmmmmm. Interesting concept huh? Building teamwork when under stress. As for having medical personnell on duty for those sailors who are dangerously close to hypothermia, well that doesnt always happen. The medical personnell are not always around. The doctor showed up for about and hour then got back in his HUMVEE and left. I can speak from experience on that one. Hence the Rangers who died in of hypothermia in the Florida phase of Ranger School in 94. When i was in Ranger school i never saw a doc in the field. You obviously didnt watch the same program i watched if you didnt see the SEAL instructors actions as hazing. Hollering in a bullhorn is combat related? Oh i forgot, its called psychological warfare (yeah right) . Face it. Not all of the tasks that were showed on the show were "combat related". And niether were all of the tasks i completed in Ranger school "combat related". If you thought that they were then you are in an elevated state of happydom. They are tasks that are invented to make the "initiation" more difficult so they could weed out the less devoted. If they cant hang then they drop out. Plain and simple. The Seals are looking for special people just like my frat is looking for special people. Its not for everyone. recieving a "bid" for Seal training just entitles you to a invitation to be tested. Those who flunk, well thats on them. Masonory is the same way. Its not for everyone. There has to be techniques to weed out the unworthy. Like the instructors on the program said, if the candidates cant make it through "hell week" then they dont want them in the brotherhood of SEALs. I feel the same way about my Fraternity.

mgdzkm433

04-19-2000, 09:09 AM

hmmmm. . .let's see here. . .Navy Seals. . .Fraternity. . .hmmmmm. Use a little common sense. The two aren't even close to being the same.

1) Shrine/Monument to instructor: Shows that the SEALS can use what they have around them to make any type of sturcture they might need to use. Dummys on the beach, so the SEALS won't be shot at, for example.

2) Personal Hygene: ummm. . .when they are out preforming "secret" missions or whatever, I hope they are more worried about getting their mission done than their hygene. If they are in the middle of battle or whatever, they aren't going to have time to think about hygene.

3) Shoveling Sand on one another: Proves that they can do what needs to be done to survive, even if it does hurt. SEALS coming in to shore from sea might need the training as to what the abrasive sand might feel like if they have to stay in shallow water for a while or on the beach for a while.

All these things are helpful in training them for battle.

Even so, come on! You are comparing Navy SEALS to Fraternity guys? SEALS are supposed to be TRAINED to withstand the elements and harsh conditions. They are supposed to be the biggest assests to our Navy! Fraterinity guys are just supposed to do community service, and that doesn't include invading Iraq and steeling the secret documents. SEALS are TRAINED military men. They KILL people if they have to. . .fraternity guys worry about what they are going to wear out on Friday night or their English grade or getting a fundraiser done.

I can't believe that you would even think of comparing the two. They are in NO way alike.

And for THEIR sake, I hope the SEALS know what it's like to be deprived of their hygene and what abrasive sand feels like before they go into a mission. . .they would never survive otherwise.

Beating a pledge or harassing him till he breaks does absolutely nothing. It in no way betters him for his fraternity. There is no use to it. . .it's pointless. Brotherhood? Who's your best friend from High School or Grade School? Did you beat each other up just so you could be "better" friends? Did you have to "prove" yourself to them? Beating someone or harassing someone to make them "stronger" or "better" or "appreciative" is the most STUPID thing I've ever heard of. These people are supposed to be your brothers! Would you beat your own brother? Would you harrass your own brother? WAKE UP!

------------------
Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

Charle

04-19-2000, 09:54 AM

'''hmmmm. . .let's see here. . .Navy Seals. . .Fraternity. . .hmmmmm. Use a little common sense. The two aren't even close to being the same.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

I guess your concept of Fraternity is different than how my organization looks at it. Just like the Navy Seals or Masons say "maybe you arent right for the organization". My Fraternity looks at it the same way. Maybe you just arent right for the Frat. Example. If you cant be a SEAL you can still be a good sailor in the Navy and serve honorably. Well, the same rule applies. If you can be in my Frat , you can join a "paper" organization and serve honorably. Same deal. If you arent willing to have the dedication then we dont want you. Plain and simple. We arent interested in people who "worry about what they are going to wear out on Friday night or their English grade or getting a fundraiser done". Obviously your perception of dedication and committment is different than the Fraternity I am in. Dont feel bad. There are lots of people who dont make it. Dont get mad because our required level of committment is different than yours. Not everyone can be SEALs, Rangers, Airborne, Masons, Eastern Stars, or in my Fraternity.

mgdzkm433

04-19-2000, 11:27 AM

What Fraternity are you in anyway? They don't care about grades, they don't care about fundraisers, they don't care about community service. . .what do you care about? Anything? Or do you just beat people and harass them? Is that what your fraternity is "all about?" I feel sorry for you if you feel that tourturing individuals just to see if they are worthy of YOUR fraternity is important. Hazing is illegal. Or do you not care about what happens to your fraternity if anyone turned you in? I guess you don't care if all your brothers who haze go to jail. IMHO you're not a brother to ANYONE if you don't care.

Yeah, it takes a "real man" to take a beating. You must be a "real man" because you got hazed. You must be a "real brother" too, beacuse you got the shit kicked out of you or was mentally harassed to see if you would crack. I stand by my previous statement. REAL brother (blood brothers) don't beat each other or harass each other to see if they are worthy of love or the title brother. If your fraternity is based on all of these things. . .I wouldn't WANT to join. I'm glad I'm an alum of TWO organizations that stand for something. Yeah, not everyone can be a Navy SEAL, but at least they stand for something, at least they do good. You haven't shown ONE thing you fraternity stands for, other than hazing. I'm sorry you frat is just a bunch of beer guzzlin' frat boys who don't know whether to scratch their watch or wind their butts. They just sit around and haze each other cause They think it's "cool" instead of doing something important. I'm sorry you didn't have a high enough GPA to get into a organization like mine. Or you didn't have respect for yourself or you didn't care about anything important. Not everyone can be good enough to be a AST, SSS, Delta, Zeta, Tri-Delta, or in MY sororities.

------------------
Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

Charle

04-19-2000, 01:54 PM

No. Not everyone has what it takes to be in my Frat. If you want to join,well you have to display a certain level of committment and dedication. If you dont want to join, well thats cool to. My fraternity is not based on numbers.

"Eight men thoroughly immersed in the true spirit are a far greater asset than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm"

LXAAlum

04-19-2000, 02:22 PM

Commitment and dedication to what? Like Mikki has stated, you don't care about grades, about community service, about anything, or so it seems.

Eight mean immersed in the true spirit - what is the true spirit? Ability to take physical punishment in order to be a member? What kind of self-esteem is that?

LXAAlum

04-20-2000, 12:27 AM

Gee thanks Mikki, you took all the steam out of what I was going to say - but you do ask an important question that I'd like to add to:

What fraternity do you belong to? Would your Founding Fathers appreciate the hazing activities? Do they tie into your organizations ideals? Not likely. Would your national organization (if you have one) condone the activities you are so proud of?

Charle, you also stated at one point that you "hated" the experience, yet you still went through it. Later, you stated you do not "give" wood now - why not? If you think it was so beneficial in hind-sight, and you believe in it so strongly, why are you not participating in it directly now? And, again, the question I'd still like to see answered: would you take accountability if, God forbid, something went wrong with one of your chapter's activities?

------------------
Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

mgdzkm433

04-20-2000, 09:00 AM

Not everyone has what it takes to be in an organization like mine. You have to prove that you can balance your life. You have to maintain a good grade point average. You have to show dedication to the orginization by participating in what we stand for: Philanthropy, Community Service, Furthering the Aims and Ideals of our Founders. You have to show respect, both for ourselves and for others. You have to show Commitment to all of the things listed above. I'm sorry you didn't make the cut in an organization like mine, but that's ok, you can settle for a mediocre frat that relys on wether their members can walk the day after their beatings. Not everyone has the good qualities I've listed, it's ok. There are organizations out there that will take you based on your ability to guzzle beer upside down from a keg. Don't worry, you'll do just fine in that kind of an organization. So far you have proved nothing to anyone other than you are a member of a frat that hazes. You have not stated anything that would give the impression that your organization is dedicated or committed to anything. You even have to hide the name of the Frat. because you KNOW that it is a disgrace. You've failed to prove that your organization is a worthwile organization. I'm beginning to believe that you aren't even IN a fraternity. You can't tell the name, you can't give us aims and ideals, you can't tell what your frat is dedicated or committed to doing. . .hmmmmm. . .I don't think you're a member of anything. If you are. . .prove it!

------------------
Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

Charle

04-20-2000, 09:33 AM

Kool. Did you have a bake sale also while you were pledging? lol

mgdzkm433

04-20-2000, 04:32 PM

did you have spank each other and when it was your turn to get spanked say "You're my daddy! You're my daddy!"

Charle

04-20-2000, 04:37 PM

Now , now. Calm down little lady.

SilverTurtle

04-20-2000, 06:57 PM

I have this tremendous urge to reply to the previous few posts... yet I don't know where to even begin... so if this seems to wander around and/or gets excessively long, I apologize in advance. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

Starting with the whole Frat vs. Navy SEALS

PLEASE...Mikki's right. Your frat is nothing like the SEALS. Unless you really are planning on invading Iran. Or Canada. Or something. Personally, I would guess that there is some hazing that is uncalled for in all branches of the military. And I don't think it's O.K. However, I can only imagine that war really is hell, and those men and women who are unfortunate enough to go through it (war)will have to handle a lot more than most of us ever will. So I can see where some of those exercises that borderline on hazing are valuable (Mikke gave some good examples). What on earth is your frat involved in that requires you to be able to handle taking wood or other beatings, or whatever else you brag about? I will say this: I'm not, nor was I ever, in the military. I have a few relatives that were/are, but my knowledge IS limited in this area.

Next... I think it's important to have pride in your GLO. I even think you, Charle, should be proud (although we apparently differ on why you should be proud). We all chose to earn our letters because of what they represent to us. It was something we value + want to be a part of. Which brings me to.. why haven't you told us the name of your GLO? I can tell you mine: Phi Beta Fraternity: a national professional association for the creative and performing arts (http://www.phibeta.com). And I'll bet just about everyone else on this board will tell you theirs. It's got to be 1 of 3 things, as far as I can tell:

you're not actually in a GLO
you know that if any members (actives or alumni) see you bragging about how you haze and got hazed they are going to do more than kick your a**
your frat doesn't do anything of real value to the community, and someone who knows it will see your posts and tell it like it is

Speaking of value to the community.. even if you won't tell us the name of your frat, you could at least tell us something it does. To my knowledge, all nationals have at least 1 major philanthropy they support. And all of the chapters (even 'social') that I can think of do a lot of other stuff. And they have to worry about their grades while they're doing it, because if they don't, they can't remain active.

Now, it seems in the last few posts we have all gotten a little upset and maybe frustrated. Even Mikki http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif But I agree with her.. it takes a lot to be a part of my organization. And it all comes down to "How bad do you want it?" Thankfully for myself, Mikki (from what I can tell) and many others here, our chapters respect what Greek life is really all about, starting with the Flat Hat Society when GLO's came into existence as literary (+ eventually other academic) societies. And when our bigs, etc. were "testing" us to see how bad we wanted it, they went about it in a mature, productive, and successful way. (And that was not by hazing). How many of your (Charle) alumni are involved day-by-day, or maybe week-by-week, or even month-by-month, in your GLO? Now, how many of mine are? Why are they?

Getting off the soap box in just a minute, but first:

Did you ask Mikki if she had a bake sale?! What does that have to do with anything?! And maybe they did and the $ went to help some underprivelaged kids or the homeless or to fight disease! How is that something to make fun of? Every year my chapter participates in "daffodil days".. it's in conjuction with the American Cancer Society and all the $ goes to help w/ cancer research. So do you want to make fun of me for selling daffodils? Or the men in my fraternity who sell them? Trust me, I won't be offended.

Now i really am stepping down off the soap box http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif..

Charle- if you can justify to me hazing, i will leave it alone. (I won't agree, but I won't fight with you about it, either. Unless you really tick me off http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif )I mean like Mikki did with the SEALS.. for example:
"We got paddled to teach us this..."

And to be honest... I can't figure out how you can finish that sentence without sounding like a moron. And you can't say "to build brotherhood"--that's a total copout, and we all know it is.

Ok, I think that's everything i wanted to say http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity (http://www.phibeta.com)
Phi chapter (http://homepages.go.com/~phibetaphichapter/index.html)

Charle

04-20-2000, 07:37 PM

Do you want to know what Frat I am in? I am not a member of GLO "GLOW"....the Glorious Ladies of Wrestling....... If you really want to know what Frat I am in you can identify it by the tagline phrase. "Eight men thoroughly immersed.....". I am willing to bet that some of the people who posted earlier in this topic string can name my frat. Hint: Ronald E. McNair.

SilverTurtle

04-20-2000, 07:49 PM

Charle-

you have confirmed for me that there is a reason you're being so secretive about your membership. and i really don't care that much. FYI- I don't make it a habit to memorize the history, members, and mottos of every GLO (Greek letter organziation) or BGLO ('black Greek letter organization) there is. If you belong to a non-Greek letter organization, fine. My bad.

I do like to be informed, but get real. If I just named off a few famous alumni of my fraternity, I hightly doubt you would have a clue what i was talking about.

Your decision not to respond to my quesiton regarding justifying hazing tells me that you can't justify it. (Quelle surprise).

------------------
SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity (http://www.phibeta.com)
Phi chapter (http://homepages.go.com/~phibetaphichapter/index.html)

SigEpYoda

04-21-2000, 03:45 AM

I finally remmember my password. Anyway, this conversation is getting heated. I like it, it create an open discussion on the status of GLOs. Now here is the status:

(1) The pool that we are recruiting at are declining. Majority of GLOs are seeing a declining in membership. WIth few exception, those that are actually tackling the hazing, alcohol and other risk mgt issues aggressively. Perfect example is George Washington University greek system. Almost every chapters has completely eliminated hazing and saw it's number nearly triple in two years.

(2) Many national organization are facing millions of dollars in lawsuits from risk mgt. problems. This mean, higher premium for insurances, and higher dues for its members. This will cause either prospective members not joining due to financial cost, active members going inactive due to financial cost, or a whole national organization declaring bankruptcy.

GLOs were never meant to due secret convert operation in hostile countries. So we don't need any of this BS that has many of our leaders loosing their hair every night. It's quite simple, hazing is not acceptable, ever. Let me clarify, I'm not talking about wearing your pins, getting signature, all that things. Although if uncheck, those little thing will result in big things.

------------------
Try Not . . . Do

Charle

04-21-2000, 09:23 AM

----------------?????????????????????????????????/
>>>(1) The pool that we are recruiting at >>>are declining. Majority of GLOs are
>>>seeing a declining in membership. WIth >>>few exception, those that are actually >>.tackling the hazing, alcohol and other >>risk mgt issues aggressively. Perfect >>example is George Washington University >>>greek system. Almost every chapters has >>>completely eliminated hazing and saw it's >>>number nearly triple in two years.--------???????????????????

Read the words spoken by brother in my Fraternity.

Members Versus Men

The Greek Letter Societies among our group appear to have entered upon a period of mad competition for obtaining members. Pledges are increasing in number. Scarcely a student on the college campus but wears a pledge pin or a frat pin. Are the fraternities forgetting their original high standards? Can it be said that every man who enters college is of Fraternity material? If in any place, our Fraternity has entered this mad race for members, pause and consider.

"The value of our Fraternity is not in numbers, but in men, in real brotherhood. Eight men thoroughly immersed in the true spirit are far greater assets than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm."

SigmaRhoyalty

04-21-2000, 09:45 AM

I think some people/groups of people take the whole pleding/hazing thing too far. I am a member of a BGLO and I definitely want true sorors in my organization, but not at the expense of getting sued and having my chapter stripped. And we all have seen cases of this occuring. I believe that the women who are pledging should go through a process, but NO, I don't think we should beat them senselessly and try to break them down mentally/physically to the point where it creates problems. I have spoken with males of certain BGLOs who have told me that their process lasted for up to three years! I can only speak for myself (because my views don't necessary reflect those of my chapter or my sorority as a whole), but is this REALLY necessary?

Hazing is both a white and black issue, it's just done differenly by both groups. Both can result in negative consequences. I think there should be a limit to what we put people through. Just because someone is beat every night with a paddle doesn't necessary mean that person will be dedicated member. Just because you force some one to drink shots all night and then walk through snow naked doesn't mean that he will be a productive member. Many times these same people that you helped pledge are the same ones who fail to pay their dues or participate in community service events. Yeah, they get hazed, but only because they want to belong.

I have spoken with frat guys who told me that the process they went through DID NOT make them bond with those who pledged them. Even after they crossed they did not have strong, positive relationships. Some say that if they knew then what they know now they would have bypassed undergrad. What does this say about the hazing that people are subjected to. The only way I would not have love for a soror is if she didn't know her history, wasn't active, or financial. If she contributes to the sorority and exemplifies all the positive qualities that we are taught to possess, then she is okay with me.

LXAAlum

04-21-2000, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Charle:
----------------?????????????????????????????????/

Read the words spoken by brother in my Fraternity.

Members Versus Men

The Greek Letter Societies among our group appear to have entered upon a period of mad competition for obtaining members. Pledges are increasing in number. Scarcely a student on the college campus but wears a pledge pin or a frat pin. Are the fraternities forgetting their original high standards? Can it be said that every man who enters college is of Fraternity material? If in any place, our Fraternity has entered this mad race for members, pause and consider.

"The value of our Fraternity is not in numbers, but in men, in real brotherhood. Eight men thoroughly immersed in the true spirit are far greater assets than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm."

Once again, you are not disclosing the True name of your frat (I pause to use fraternity in this case...). Original High Standards - Real Brotherhood? Really? Did these "original" standards mean physical abuse? Real Brotherhood? Do you have to beat this out of new members?

Earlier, I asked if God forbid, something goes wrong, were you will to be accountable as a brother? In the next post, your answer, apparently, was no. What kind of brotherhood is that?

It may be true that pledges in your organization are increasing in number - but, what is the pledge/initiation ratio?

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif

------------------
Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 21, 2000).]

LXAAlum

04-21-2000, 01:14 PM

I figured it out - not too hard either - If Charle really is a brother of anything, it is apparently

Omega Psi Phi

Q-Dog, Omega, etc....

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif

Kind of interesting considering that their motto is:

Friendship is Essential to the Soul

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 21, 2000).]

ZetaAce

04-21-2000, 02:31 PM

It's also interesting to note that Omega Psi Phi just settled with a hazing victim to to the tune of 1 million dollars.

Charle- how do you feel about that? Doesn't it bother you that fraternities and sororities (not just Omega) are losing so much money over such nonsense? Money that can go towards scholarships and charity?

ZetaAce

mgdzkm433

04-24-2000, 01:46 PM

Wether or not any of us are bias, makes no difference. The fact of the matter is, it is illegal and participating in hazing not only puts his chapter in a bad situation, it puts all sororities and fraternities in a bad situation. Every greek organization feels the effects of hazing, wether it is their organization or not. The hazing situations from the past is what has caused the crack down and the new rules and regulations regarding pledge processes throughout the world. What his organization does affects my organization as well. It might not be fair or right, but it's true. So what his organzation does concerns me as well. I am not going to just sit around and just worry about what my organization does, I'm going to worry about all greek organization. If I don't think its right or good for a pledge in my organization to be hazed, I'm not going to think its right or good for a pledge in another organization to be hazed. We as individuals don't just represent our own organizations, we represent greeks as a whole. Why should I tolarate some guy who thinks its cool? Why should I let him give greeks a bad name? He's not only making it worse for himself and his own organziation, he's making it worse for all greeks.

------------------
Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

SilverTurtle

04-24-2000, 07:56 PM

What Mikki said was right on. It's okay, and expected, that we all do things, including our intake process', different. But when people announe their hazing practices, it reflects all Greeks, even if it's not what's intended. The last thing any of us needs is more negative attitudes about Greek Life being spread.

------------------
SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity (http://www.phibeta.com)
Phi chapter (http://homepages.go.com/~phibetaphichapter/index.html)

SigEpYoda

04-25-2000, 12:07 AM

Number does matter. I know for chapters in my fraternity to be considered an active chapter in good standing, they must either have 40 or more members or in the top quartile of memberships on their respective campus. I've herd the argument of quality of quantity. I agreed with that, to an extent. A chapter wich has a low number has more problem to deal with. Problem such as financial and lack of resources. Number does matter. After all, the bigger chapter on campus has more functions, better mixers, more involved on campus and so on. That is from experience.

dirtyharry

04-25-2000, 12:23 AM

Although I do not condone senseless hazing or abuse to anyone in any frat/soror., I think we need to stop judging those who haze and have been hazed. Every organization has their own process's that they put GDI's through for membership. Whether it be a paper process or whether they travel the sands each has the same goal.

What Charle and his LB's did to get their letter's apparently brought them together as a unit. Again whether his process was right or wrong, doesn't matter because in their view, and in their chapter's view they were made right. His frat. may overtly outlaw whatever process he went thru, but in reality it is a process that supported by most in his frat. If it weren't they would shut down UG's all together.

Let me make one other point. It appears from reading the past posts, that some have exonerated those who are undergoing their process or being pledged from any wrong doing. I feel that any aspirant who is interested in joining an organization, particularly a BGLO, knows the deal before they undertake the process. Any BGLO member who disagree's with that is being unrealistic. Unfortunately, many expect their process to be tough based on rumors and movies. Every chapter in a frat./soror. does things differently. Some make it easy and some make it hard it's all up to that chapter.

I think we need to stop looking at this from a one-sided point of view and look at Charle's side for moment and understand why he feel's the way he does.

Peace!!!

Abercrombie

05-08-2000, 02:57 AM

Just think about what you are saying " I need to beat this guy up so that he will be a good member of the fraternity" Where did this idea come from? Did your parents deck you when you didn't clean up your room in order to raise a good son or daughter? The fact is you may be creating people that stay with the fraternity but isn't that the same as the house wife who is beaten by her husband and then says she tripped down the stairs. Should you really have to tear a person down in order to build them up to be a strong leader? I sure don't think so. In my fraternity we create paddles as part of tradition. Hazing may have been a tradition in the past but when someone realizes a tradition is wrong it is there responsibility to change it. It was traditionally the man who has been the head of the household forever but now we share equal rights with women. This one example of breaking tradition. It really shouldn't be that hard to realize that beating these pledges isn't the true way to create a strong leader. I suggest every member of a greek lettered fraternity take a careful look at how they are running their pledge process and look how they could change it for the better.

Pi Kappa Phi
University of Oregon

DiSTinguished

06-05-2000, 12:42 AM

Charle:
Where/When did you pledge?

Kymberleigh

08-11-2000, 02:50 PM

Okay,

I need to say something here. I had a friend who dated this guy who beat the sh!t out of her. I begged her to leave him, but she said that he was only teaching her to be stronger. Okay, how is that any different from some of the stuff I've read stated on this thread. No one who loves you or who is down with you beats you. Nobody who's family loves them does that. My Sorority is my family, so they build me up in positive and reaffirming ways, they don't tear me down, or claim to build me up by beating me down.

Just like women who get beaten, and make every excuse in the book for it. This sounds the same.

And, as far as I'm concerned the concept of paper is fine, but when someone uses it because someone in a Frat or Sorority gets the house in trouble due to hazing that's ridiculous. The people who beat the sh!t out of their frat or sisters should be the ones called paper, cause I don't think that any of the principles which an organization stands for would condone beating. And if they did, why would one chose to stand for that?

In my Opinion,

Kymberleigh

[This message has been edited by Kymberleigh (edited August 11, 2000).]

FratGuyCASU

08-11-2000, 09:54 PM

Charle, I got the wood in my frat also. 30 solid whacks on briefs, it stung big time, but I did not cry out for the most part, and probably made me more of a man going though it.

SapphireSensation

08-13-2000, 07:58 AM

Peace & Blessings

People, people...first, it must be understood where the taking of the wood comes from, for the BGLOs at least.
It comes from the African Rites of Passage.
Truth be told,to the BGLO Sorors & Frat, taking wood only happened during hell week.
When it started happening from day-one of your process, I'm not sure, I wasn't there.
Personally, I don't think it's necessary because ANYONE CAN TAKE PAIN! THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU MY SISTER/BROTHER AND IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU A BETTER SISTER/BROTHER.
My Sisters/Brothers know the history of their organizations and uplift their communities by being positive role models for our youth.
I find that most of the Sorors/Frat who toot their horns about being in the "century club (100 strokes of wood +)" always end up inactive after they graduate and you only see them at parties, step-shows, etc. You never see them at a conference or community service project.
Finally, those six or seven weeks that you spend on line are just the beginning.....you continually pledge your organization until the day you die!!!

---------------------------------------------
SapphireSensation
RoyalBlueDivaDivine
The Epitome of Finerwomanhood

ahhkbah

08-16-2000, 12:24 AM

I found something interesting and I thought that it seemed relevant to this thread. I apologize in advace for its length.

To be honest there are many who fall prey to at least one of these
situations. There is no easy way to say this, but there is one thing that
must be considered. If you fall victim to the previously stated situations
then it is possible that you were hazed and not pledged. If
you don't know why wood was used, yet you are someone who thinks
WOOD=PLEDGING; then I am sorry to say that you have a lot to learn about
pledging. If you think that being forced to stay up all night for someone
else's amusement is pledging; then you have got a lot to learn about
pledging. If you disrepect or look down on other organizations; I am sorry
to say you were not pledged. If you think that because you didn't take wood
that you didn't pledge; you might be surprised to find out it is possible
that you did pledge.

Pledging is supposed to teach three things. Loyalty to the principles of
the organization, loyalty to brotherhood/sisterhood amongst "ALL"
men/women,
and loyalty to the community from which you came. If you learned all of
these things, no matter what your process was
like, my brother...my sister you were pledged. If you did not...I am sorry
to say you were hazed. To all my Greek, Non-Greek, etc. brothers & sisters,
I charge you with two questions only you can answer. Were you pledged or
were you hazed? Do you pledge or do you haze?

ahhkbah

08-16-2000, 12:29 AM

And just a follow up...anyone can be physically intense; the challenge is to be mentally intense.

7BA94

08-17-2000, 07:25 PM

I am not going to down any other organization that does not pledge or take wood, but I have to agree with Charle. I don't want anyone in my frat who didn't. Why is it important; because it builds strength and resolve to stick with something through all types of adverse situations. I can guarantee you that Dr. Martin Luther King jr. who was pledged knew he could handle anything thrown at him because of his experiences on line, as well as his faith. The ordeals of pledging that make you stronger and a strong faith can make you invincible. If pledging is done correctly, you finish with an attitude that you can conquer the world if need be or make serious social change no matter what the cost. That's why physical pledging is important. Yes anyone can take a beating for a day. That is not the hard part; the hard part is waking up the next morning and going through it again and again. Some of you may say that its senseless; I say it helps create brotherhood, and determination to see things through, to never quit in the face of adversity.
All of you who talked about how the SEALS were training for war and that's why they do those things and ya da ya da ya da da. Have you ever read a book on the Navy SEALS or actually talked to an instructor. The books interviews say some of the stuff instructors do to students is just to create unit cohesion, bonds, brotherhood. Is a fraternity mission similar to a SEALS? In the sense that each one is trying to build strong bonds amongst men yes. Now do fraternities recon beaches in surf that is 55 degrees of course not, but do fraternities create marches that could be potentially hazardous to the marchers, absolutely.
So all this to say that pledging as far as I'm concerned is necessary in my fraternity. I don't believe someone can truly be a brother if they didn't pledge my fraternity. Oh and yes the hard part is not pledging that's easy the hard part is after you finished, but you need to earn the right. If you would like to see more of my views you can check out the Alpha Phi Alpha postings.

LXAAlum

08-17-2000, 11:42 PM

Here we go again....

What exact parallels again can be drawn between Seals and Fraternity members - - none.

The roles and purposes of membership in these organizations have nothing to do whatsoever with one another - you're comparing apples to oranges - something Charle repeatedly tried to do, without success.

I would NOT want anyone in my fraternity to have to go through physical or mental hazing to "prove" they have what it takes to be a "man"....hazing flies in the face of every single fraternal ideal there is: honor, chivlary, respect, patriotism, morality, dignity, etc........ and I'd like somebody to try to argue otherwise...you'll fail. Tell me how hazing exemplifies your ideals...you won't be able to.

Let me ask you this....do your parents (who more than likely paid for some of your college expenses, possibly even dues...) know what you went through in order to become a member? If not, why not? Don't give me the "secrecy of membership" tired response - certain secrets are esoteric, but, what about the hazing (which is not esoteric - it's illegal - there is a BIG difference)? Are they proud that you went through it?

Finally, do you really think Martin Luther King Jr., would approve of taking wood? Consider the legacy of Agape and nonviolent change that he left to all of us...another contradiction in your arguments.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited August 17, 2000).]

ahhkbah

08-18-2000, 12:25 AM

I do believe that pledging is a necessary part of the greek system. I do feel that it has become some bastardized form of what it used to be. Wood does not mean that you pledged. It means that you can get in the cut and take it. There are various reasons for you to take wood(assisting the line, screw ups, just because). I want a brother who will go through the fire with me, not just physically. If wit is a necessary weapon than I do not believe that someone who only got their ass beat can contribute. The God of the Judeau-Christian faith tested his followers that he deemed worthy. He saw something worthwhile and decided to plant a seed, nurture the sapling and watch it grow. I will stop being so self-righteous.

out

Charle

08-18-2000, 09:41 AM

I think Martin Luther King Jr. took and gave some wood. At least thats what i have heard from some old school alphas. BTW Colin Powell took wood when he became a member of the pershing rifles (and he was willing to take some when he was looking into out org.)

Moni93

08-19-2000, 08:08 PM

It is sad, if one thinks that he/she needs to be physically abused in order to bond. The question is after all is said and done, what are you doing with your symbols now? Are you financial, are you active with an ALUMNAE CHAPTER? Have you been to a national convention and participated in developing grass-roots initiatives?

Or... are you only seen at your school's homecoming, sporting your brands/tattoos, saying your call, and/or hazing future lines.

I love my sorority, but I get frustrated when meeting sorors who were hazed and claim to be "real" and have not been active and financial in so many years.
A soror told me that the work begins AFTER you get into DELTA and NOT BEFORE. In my opinion, that statement applies to all greek letter organizations, especially BGLOs.

NikkiW

08-21-2000, 12:14 AM

Is it common for a sorority that hazes (or used to haze) to take pictures of the event?
The reason I ask is because a link was posted on the movie "followers" message board that shows pictures of sorority paddling. It looks like its part of someones research paper or something. http://www.geocities.com/hazeandspank/sorority_hazing_pictures.htm
Some of the pictures are old, but do look real.

If I did choose to take wood, I doubt I would consent to pictures being taken.

SINQUE

08-21-2000, 06:15 AM

First of all I would like to say that I believe that it was wrong of you to expose Charle, the way in which you did. I am a member of Omega Psi Phi fraternity Inc. I may or may not have recieved wood which is truly none of your business. But this I will say, what is hard to endure is sweet to recall. I know that many of my bruhs and I have all talked about things that have happened while in the cut, this is yet another thing which we share with each other. I did not nor will not ever let anyone skate into my fraternity. I will never allow anyone under me or next to me hurt anyone. Getting and giving wood is a techniQUE to be mastered. If you don't like it DROP. THAT'S REAL DOGG. I Just Love Cooper and Coleman

mwedzi

08-21-2000, 09:37 AM

Wow. I just looked at those pictures. I'm not sure if they're real, but a couple of them look very real. Looking at those pictures and thinking about "sisterhood," I felt physically sick. I won't go on because other people on this board have already said what I've been thinking. Geez, counsellors and psychologists would have a field day with this board!

Corbin Dallas

08-22-2000, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by NikkiW:
Is it common for a sorority that hazes (or used to haze) to take pictures of the event?
The reason I ask is because a link was posted on the movie "followers" message board that shows pictures of sorority paddling. It looks like its part of someones research paper or something.

I think it's just some perverts website. Remember a while back a guy was asking about sorority hazing, claiming it was for research, asking for stories on paddling and whatnot.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

LXAAlum

08-22-2000, 01:47 PM

Ewww....checked out that site...

...other than disdain and disgust, the only thought that comes to mind when I see crap like that, and, I see defenders of "cutting wood" post why they think it is essential is this:

If you think it is so important, and such a vital part of the process - why not use these pictures on your rush poster? Why lie? Show them the "benefits" of being a pledge....join us, we'll beat the crap out of you - it's the only way!

Ugghhh.....

------------------
Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

AXO Alum

08-22-2000, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by LXAAlum:

If you think it is so important, and such a vital part of the process - why not use these pictures on your rush poster? Why lie? Show them the "benefits" of being a pledge....join us, we'll beat the crap out of you - it's the only way!

LMAO - I can just see the signs up around campus and the discussions at info events!
I can promise you this won't be at our recruitment events http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
"Alpha Chi Omega - If you only had 2 wishes, what would your second one be?"

NikkiW

08-22-2000, 05:08 PM

After looking at those pictures again, to me its hard to say if they are ALL real or not. The very first one looks the most authentic, but the last ones (b&w) do not.
The ones in between are a coin toss IMO.
I will say that in some of the pictures (that look real)the blond girl for example, is smiling. Like it's not a big deal or a dreadful experience. The same goes also for the few at the top(smiling or laughing).

Would I submit to the same as the first couple of pictures? In a fun setting, to be honest I probably would.
However, anyone who would submit to the same as the last sets of pics (with the marks) should seek professional help, and call the cops!

7BA94

08-22-2000, 06:49 PM

You only want to see things through your eyes. First off I already drew a parallel for everyone to read between fraternities and the military. There missions are different but the bonds trying to be created are the same. As Charle said, Dr. King was an Alpha he was pledged and he pledged people in return. You obviously know not what you think on that point. Another thing my parents always taught me that anything worth having you have to earn. Oh and just for your information, my parents did not pay for any of my college education, and yes they do know that what I went through I earned. I guess you are one of those types who wants everything in life given to you. Well if you don't like challenges, I'm glad you didn't try and come through my organization. Dr. King would have laughed you right out the door. Originally posted by LXAAlum:
Here we go again....

What exact parallels again can be drawn between Seals and Fraternity members - - none.

The roles and purposes of membership in these organizations have nothing to do whatsoever with one another - you're comparing apples to oranges - something Charle repeatedly tried to do, without success.

I would NOT want anyone in my fraternity to have to go through physical or mental hazing to "prove" they have what it takes to be a "man"....hazing flies in the face of every single fraternal ideal there is: honor, chivlary, respect, patriotism, morality, dignity, etc........ and I'd like somebody to try to argue otherwise...you'll fail. Tell me how hazing exemplifies your ideals...you won't be able to.

Let me ask you this....do your parents (who more than likely paid for some of your college expenses, possibly even dues...) know what you went through in order to become a member? If not, why not? Don't give me the "secrecy of membership" tired response - certain secrets are esoteric, but, what about the hazing (which is not esoteric - it's illegal - there is a BIG difference)? Are they proud that you went through it?

Finally, do you really think Martin Luther King Jr., would approve of taking wood? Consider the legacy of Agape and nonviolent change that he left to all of us...another contradiction in your arguments.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited August 17, 2000).]

ZChi4Life

08-22-2000, 11:46 PM

Wow, I looked at those pictures. I agree, some looked really fake. Yeah I doubt anyone would be smiling and laughing while getting their a** beat. But whatever.

I am totally against people taking wood to be in an organization. Any organization. I just think it's stupid and really serves no point. There are other things you can do to make someone prove they are going to work hard for your organization after they get in. As greeks, I think we've all been through certain trials and tribulations, good and bad, to prove our worthiness to our respective orgs. And I'm pretty sure that most everyone's experience did not involve some type of physical abuse. I'm just guessing though. I know my experience didn't involve anyone physically harming me. Man, all I gotta say is that if ANYONE laid their hand on me, whoa, I'd have to hit them right back!! They'd have to kick me outta the pledge class! I'd be a damn fool to let anyone try to hit on me just so I can be a member of an organization! What-EVER! I'm sorry but I LOVE my sorority w/ ALL my heart and I was ready to do what it took to get in. BUT I'm not about to let anyone hit me either or do anything that put my life in danger!

Anyway, just think about this. So if you have a pledge class/line and you paddle them or whatever. What happens when after they've proven that they can take wood, they get initiated and then most of them become inactive? So was it worth them getting wood? Was it worth you giving it? I mean, wouldn't you rather have a brother/sister that was "paper" or "skated" and they work hard to uphold the values and principles of the fraternity/sorority? Or would you rather have someone who took wood then became inactive? Hopefully people would want the first scenario. If not, then I think some peope have serious problems if all they care about is bringing in brothers/sisters the "right" way. That is ridiculous!
I would love to know the percentage of people initiated that stay active if they took wood. That would be interesting.
But that's my .04 cents

modorney

06-27-2007, 05:21 PM

As far as Masons and goats (or any animals), there aren't any. I only know Blue Lodge (not Shrine, Scottish Rite or York Rite).

http://http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/goat.html

Tom Earp

06-27-2007, 06:18 PM

As far as Masons and goats (or any animals), there aren't any. I only know Blue Lodge (not Shrine, Scottish Rite or York Rite).

http://http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/goat.html

Ha, if You are a Mason, I am Scotish Rite, there is no wood or I would have kicked the Sh*t out of them!:mad:

It is supposed to be a Brotherhood of Friends!

32 Degree!

Sir Genesis

08-09-2007, 02:14 PM

While we may all have our differences about pledging, we must focus on what is important. For organizations that paddle and those that don't, are your members just members or are they productive brothers and sisters? As long as they give back to the organization on a chapter level, national level and community level then the "process" was successful.

I was not paddled and wouldn't allow it to take place but I am a Chapter President, I am the VP of my Greek Senate, an Editor of my school paper, the university's Junior Class President last year on, have my own radio show and a million other things. I don't say it to brag; I say it to prove a point-brotherhood/sisterhood and wood have no direct correlation.

Any and all forms of new member intake can produce great brothers and sisters if done in good taste. The only way to judge if one way is better than the other is to look at the organization's productivity and each individual's productivity.

LPIDelta

08-09-2007, 02:54 PM

The only way to judge if one way is better than the other is to look at the organization's productivity and each individual's productivity.

Well some might argue that whether the activity is legal or not would be another way to judge. Hazing is not legal in many parts of this country, and certainly not condoned by many national organizations, so my judgment would be that paddling is wrong.

Just sayin...

Sir Genesis

08-09-2007, 03:04 PM

I don't condone or support paddling nor do I think it is necessary. But state laws consider making people study history or giving a pop-quiz as a hazing activity so most Organizations haze by law.

For some organizations, however, paddling has been connected to ancient rituals (though that is not how it was introduced to Greek life) and as long as it does not step outside of that tradition I will not tell someone that they cannot do that or should not. The issue is that it does often reach far outside of that tradition and becomes a sport.

PrettyBoy

08-09-2007, 11:22 PM

Anyone on here ever get any wood while they were pledging? I know I did. How much did you get? In my frat we call it "getting in the cut". What are you opinions?
:D

PrettyBoy

08-10-2007, 05:26 AM

Wood is like a credit card. I never leave home without it.:D

ladygreek

08-10-2007, 12:17 PM

Wow, the term discretion wasn't known back in 2000, huh?

Tom Earp

08-10-2007, 02:08 PM

As has been seen, "using wood" can also do bodily harm to an individual, and that can be used as assault with a weapon.

jon1856

08-11-2007, 10:27 AM

I too have to agree with most of the posters here.
While "Pledge Paddles" have a great deal of tradition behind them (no pun meant here), some of those traditions can cause a great deal of trouble these days.

Besides the rather strong possibly/probability of breaking anti-hazing rules and laws, one is also looking at A&B with intent to commit bodily harm or some form of that.

We can cause our own problems and they only get worse when TPTB react to the stupid things we do.

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 12:44 PM

Let me jump in here and defend our Sorors. The Soror who moderates the board can give you the exact reson your post was taken down but I'm willing to bet she did because it was offensive and it was indiscreet. The members who frequent the Zeta board on this website would like it to be positive so that ALL Sorors, Frat, and Friends who want to post do so and feel welcome.

GOMAB the right way is BROTHERHOOD, SCHOLARSHIP, AND SERVICE. NOT a 'process'!

------------------
Strivin' for Z-Phi-B!

wood and tradition is part of the, "Process", 1920 Howard Univercity. If this part of the process was not experienced then...:o

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 12:50 PM

Well, first of all I couldn't tell you what "wood" is, but I would assume it means paddling. No, we don't. My chapter has the big sisters decorate a paddle for their little sisters to hang on their walls, but it is in no way used for beatings or paddlings. If is for decoration. Besides, who would want to stoop to that level to paddle someone? OR who would want to be the paddler? Is this grade school? Adults don't get paddled, only children.

------------------
Mikki Gates
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

visit Us at www.dzbantu.com (http://www.dzbantu.com) "stooping that low", has apart of our tradition since 1911?!! And, "stooping", at traditional Campus locations.

1908Revelations

08-12-2007, 12:53 PM

wood and tradition is part of the, "Process", 1920 Howard Univercity. If this part of the process was not experienced then...:o
Then what?

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 12:53 PM

Soror, I understand where you are coming from but, you gotta keep it real skaters are hated. Some girl the other day wanted to know some chants. She wanted to know if some one would e-mail her them or post them on the board. You think she pledged? I worked way to hard for my letters and to see other people walk around with the same respect as me, and he/she didnt even pledge. It goes all the way back to 1914. You Should unterstand it best all 5 of your founders pledged. G.O.M.A.B. frat

You GO girl!

1908Revelations

08-12-2007, 12:55 PM

Wow, the term discretion wasn't known back in 2000, huh?
Hmmmmm...LG....interesting concept that discretion you speak of! Is it foreign?:rolleyes::) Really some people should try it out. I'm glad you brought it up! Such a wise grasshopper!! Luv ya LG!

Also, DZNupe.....the people you are quoting don't post anymore those post were from 7 years ago.

1908Revelations

08-12-2007, 12:56 PM

You GO girl!That was a guy he's a Sigma.

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 01:13 PM

please, research the, " Hazing traditions ", of the ELITE fraternities that MAKE THE LAWS.

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 01:14 PM

That was a guy he's a Sigma.

Ooops.apologies due my brother.

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 01:20 PM

Then what?
the beat goes on... I'd presume

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 01:28 PM

please, don't misunderstand me. My chapter no longer participates in Hazing, to my dismay.
:rolleyes:

ladygreek

08-12-2007, 01:31 PM

wood and tradition is part of the, "Process", 1920 Howard Univercity. If this part of the process was not experienced then...:o
PP wasn't enought for you, huh? You decided to bring your inaneness here to GC.

DZNupe4Klub

08-12-2007, 01:42 PM

PP wasn't enought for you, huh? You decided to bring your inaneness here to GC.

Why of course not! I didn't post this thread nor had anything to do with it.
I resent you even concluding to such!
Evidently.. My PP thread was liked by someone here.

PrettyBoy

08-12-2007, 08:19 PM

I see you got my e-mail. Are you going to Homecoming this year? I'll be there.

ladygreek

08-12-2007, 08:59 PM

Evidently.. My PP thread was liked by someone here.
Or not.

latese

08-13-2007, 10:13 AM

What about the instance of a "solo" line. How would taking "wood" be benificial the individual if the main concept of "wood" is to bring the line together?:confused:

SNUIGC

08-13-2007, 12:05 PM

After looking through this thread...wow... that's... simply amazing. ...and, in reference to the question, no, no one in my chapter ever has, or ever will "take wood" or be hazed in any way (Sigma Nu)...albeit, I do know that most other fraternities on our campus still take part in hazing.

Also, what, you humiliate and injure your own BROTHERS/SISTERS for what? Tradition? It makes no sense... you don't tear somebody down to build them up, that's now how it works and it's not showing LOVE to them, you're not being TRUTHful to them and their parents by claiming you won't do such a thing at the start, and it's not making you an HONORable person doing it.

Sir Genesis

08-13-2007, 04:06 PM

I thoroughly believe in the breaking down of a man to build them back up stronger than before. :D I just think the breakdown should be mental instead of physical.

What brings line brothers/sisters closer together is not the wood itself-it's experiencing emotions they've never felt before and being able to fight through it with blood, sweat and tears together. Any foreign situation that takes teamwork and a sense of brotherhood/sisterhood will foster that love and dedication that we all strive to instill in each potential brother/sister. Once again, the issue is when it goes too far.

Taking strokes for founders and things of the like are one thing; taking 100+ strokes over the course of 6+ weeks is another. When people are celebrating the "Century Club" more than they are the History and the Ideals there's a problem.

But I do agree with SNUIGC that humiliation and injury is unnecessary. No tradition was created to do that and they've been taken way out of context in this day and age. Many traditions have evolved due to negative energies like anger, jealousy, shame, etc. and pledging in many respects has become more of a competition than a lesson. It's just something to think about.