Men and Committment

[Honeykiss1974]

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- It's official. Men really are afraid of commitment.

Confirming what women have long known, an American study released on Wednesday shows men are dragging their feet on getting married.

Researchers say one of the biggest reasons that men are delaying marriage is that more and more couples are choosing to live together before marriage. As a result, sex -- traditionally one of the main reasons for men to marry -- is relatively easily available, they say.

"In a sense, with cohabitation he gets a quasi-wife without having to commit," said David Popenoe, co-director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

"Another big thing in addition to cohabitation is that these men are very, very concerned about divorce. It's not getting your heart broken ... the worst thing that could happen is that somebody could take their money," Popenoe adds.

The preliminary findings report on the attitudes toward marriage of 60 unmarried, heterosexual men, between the ages of 25-33. The participants, from different religious, ethnic and family backgrounds, were from four major metropolitan areas in northern New Jersey, Chicago, Houston, and Washington, D.C.

Researchers say both men and women are putting off getting married. The average age for men's first marriage is now 27, the oldest in history, the study shows. That compares to the average age of 23 in 1960, Popenoe said.

For women, the average age of their first marriage has risen to 25, a full five years older than the 1960 average.

And giving women even more reason to be impatient that their boyfriends are dragging their feet, researchers say the trend favors the men.

"Guys can afford to wait to marry. The older they get, the better their chances in some ways of getting married, while for women it's the reverse," Popenoe said.

"Once a woman gets into her 30s, it's more likely that she will have to marry a man who was married earlier. It's more likely that she will marry a man who brings kids (into the marriage) and more likely that she will have a child by herself," Popenoe says.

Copyright 2002 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[TLAW]

It took an in-depth study to confirm what we know via basic common sense?

[librasoul22]

Well I am wearing my flame-retardant suit, so here I go...

I, for one, am tired of everyone blaming men for being scared to committ. I am a woman and I HATE the idea of committment. I know several other women who feel the same way. So what does that prove? NOTHING! Just because 60 of the men they picked out are afraid of committment, it doesn't mean they all are. I think that most of us operate on the stereotype of men being "players," and not ready to settle down.

Both sexes have issues with comittment, if you ask me. It doesn't fall more on one than the other. But we have been socialized to think that men are more susceptible to fear of committment. I just don't think it is true.

Sigh...let the flaming begin, lol!

[Ideal08]

I feel you librasoul... I no longer have a desire to commit, either. Nothing is like I thought it would be, so I guess I need to get my head out of the clouds, and just sit and wait on it. The article doesn't surprise me, like you said TLAW, common sense.

[TLAW]

LOL @ Libra

[TLAW]

Now, c'mon, you know y'all sound a little pessimistic now...

[straightBOS]

I promise not to flame :D

But the report did say the findings were preliminary, so further research may prove otherwise or it may confirm the results. So we must remember that this report never assumes that its findings are set in stone.

But, the facts behind what happens to men and women who wait longer to commit to marriage are indeed completely accurate. No matter what concepts or ideas we may hold about the sexes- valid or not, women who wait longer to marry are at a greater risk of being alone forever.

Now, I'm just a youngin' so I'm not looking to commit or build a nest, etc. so the results don't affect me or my dating habits. And, it will probably not affect the dating habits of most people. But, when it does start to matter (when those clocks start ticking), then the results may become more relevant. It's more about lifelong trends in relationships rather than who is shacking up with whom.

[TLAW]

Would you ladies say that this trend is accurate for black men?

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by TLAW
Would you ladies say that this trend is accurate for black men?

Black men have SO many more things to worry about than commitment!! Not to say that any one thing takes precedence, but I, personally, would rather worry about how I am going to get an education, land a job, and try not to get shot down in the street by the cops BEFORE I even try to fix my mind to think about commitment.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by TLAW
Now, c'mon, you know y'all sound a little pessimistic now...

Hey, man...can't really speak for anyone but myself...but from my personal experiences, committing isn't all it is cracked up to be. Mind you, I am not saying that it will never be. But right now, I am quite content to not have any strings attached.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by TLAW
Now, c'mon, you know y'all sound a little pessimistic now...

more like discouraged. I don't know... talking to male friends, seeing how some of yall's minds work... it's discouraging. And then add to that personal experiences? Please. I'm hardly a pessimist. IDEALism is great, you know I think so, lol, but things are just not cool right now, lol.

[strawberry_02]

Well I also am not very optimistic about finding a man who wants to committ. All of my friends are married and have families and I can't seem to find a decent man. I know that is partly because I am too picky for my own good. But now I also feel that I am not ready to committ.I am trying to do my thang. Having only really cared about 1 person and being with him for 4 yrs and him trying to do me very dirty...I ain't committing to jack!!! Okay I had to vent a little.Some brothas know they wrong!

But its all good. I am having fun doing my thang :p

[TLAW]

Well, being picky is not necessarily bad.

[ClassyLady]

Originally posted by TLAW
Well, being picky is not necessarily bad.

You ain't nevah, evah, evah lied!!!!

I always say hold out for what you really want because when you settle, you'll just end up wasting time and realizing that you should have held out for Mr. Right instead of Mr. He'll Do.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by strawberry_02
Having only really cared about 1 person and being with him for 4 yrs and him trying to do me very dirty...I ain't committing to jack!!! Okay I had to vent a little.Some brothas know they wrong!

But its all good. I am having fun doing my thang :p

Girl, girl, girl.... girl. Girl. You know, the whole thing makes me think of that Jay-Z song, Song Cry.

A face of stone, was shocked on the other end of the phone
Word back home is that you had a special friend
So what was oh so special then?
You have given away without gettin at me
That's your fault, how many times you forgiven me?
How was I to know that you was plain sick of me?
I know the way a n***a livin was whack
But you don't get a n***a back like that!
Sh*t I'm a man with pride, you don't do sh*t like that
You don't just pick up and leave and leave me sick like that
You don't throw away what we had, just like that
I was just f****n them girls, I was gon' get right back
They say you can't turn a bad girl good
But once a good girl's goin bad, she's gone forever..
And more forever
Sh*t I gotta live with the fact I did you wrong forever

Live wit' it, playa. Shoulda thought about that!!! :mad:

I figured I'd vent, too, lol. I ain't bitter, though. :p

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Ideal08


Girl, girl, girl.... girl. Girl. You know, the whole thing makes me think of that Jay-Z song, Song Cry.

A face of stone, was shocked on the other end of the phone
Word back home is that you had a special friend
So what was oh so special then?
You have given away without gettin at me
That's your fault, how many times you forgiven me?
How was I to know that you was plain sick of me?
I know the way a n***a livin was whack
But you don't get a n***a back like that!
Sh*t I'm a man with pride, you don't do sh*t like that
You don't just pick up and leave and leave me sick like that
You don't throw away what we had, just like that
I was just f****n them girls, I was gon' get right back
They say you can't turn a bad girl good
But once a good girl's goin bad, she's gone forever..
And more forever
Sh*t I gotta live with the fact I did you wrong forever

Live wit' it, playa. Shoulda thought about that!!! :mad:

I figured I'd vent, too, lol. I ain't bitter, though. :p

Yeah...it is not that deep...TLAW some of us have just decided that AS OF RIGHT NOW...men are not worth the headache. It is all to the good though, it is not a permanent thing!

[AKA2D '91]

http://marriage.rutgers.edu/



**************************









Study: 'Guys can afford to wait to marry'
June 27, 2002 Posted: 11:19 AM EDT (1519 GMT)






NEW YORK (Reuters) -- It's official. Men really are afraid of commitment.

Confirming what women have long known, an American study released on Wednesday shows men are dragging their feet on getting married.

Researchers say one of the biggest reasons that men are delaying marriage is that more and more couples are choosing to live together before marriage. As a result, sex -- traditionally one of the main reasons for men to marry -- is relatively easily available, they say.

"In a sense, with cohabitation he gets a quasi-wife without having to commit," said David Popenoe, co-director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

"Another big thing in addition to cohabitation is that these men are very, very concerned about divorce. It's not getting your heart broken ... the worst thing that could happen is that somebody could take their money," Popenoe adds.

The preliminary findings report on the attitudes toward marriage of 60 unmarried, heterosexual men, between the ages of 25-33. The participants, from different religious, ethnic and family backgrounds, were from four major metropolitan areas in northern New Jersey, Chicago, Houston, and Washington, D.C.

Researchers say both men and women are putting off getting married. The average age for men's first marriage is now 27, the oldest in history, the study shows. That compares to the average age of 23 in 1960, Popenoe said.

For women, the average age of their first marriage has risen to 25, a full five years older than the 1960 average.

And giving women even more reason to be impatient that their boyfriends are dragging their feet, researchers say the trend favors the men.

"Guys can afford to wait to marry. The older they get, the better their chances in some ways of getting married, while for women it's the reverse," Popenoe said.

"Once a woman gets into her 30s, it's more likely that she will have to marry a man who was married earlier. It's more likely that she will marry a man who brings kids (into the marriage) and more likely that she will have a child by herself," Popenoe says.

[delph998]

Ideal & Strawberry,

I'm with y'all-DISCOURAGED! Most of y'all know that I live in Minnesota. Not only are the men scared of commitment, they're scared to ask you to dance at First Fridays?! :confused: I'm still shook on that one. There is no point in looking, we might as well make OURSELVES the bomb so when God blesses us with someone, we'll be totally ready!

P.S. Ideal, I know you really know what I'm talking about...we won't go back to Valentine's Day '02...

You know what, and while I'm at it, I gotta question. Why is it that every guy that is trying to holla at me 1) married 2) at least, ten years my senior 3) has about three children by two different women 4)straight GARBAGE 5) has been married at least two times?! C'mon now!

I'm getting frustrated...so that's why I'm DISCOURAGED!

[TLAW]

Being a St Paul native, I refuse to believe that all the Minn brothers are that bad! Still, all your arguments can be flipped, you know. Not all women instil the need to settle down in men, and some are just downright scandalous. Same principle applies: Do not settle. There are good people, who can fulfill most of your desires. Now, I believe pursuit of Mr 100% Perfect is unreasonable, and some people are just impossible to satisfy. What are those attributes that you consider reasonable?

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by TLAW
Not all women instil the need to settle down in men, and some are just downright scandalous.

Who are we talkin' about here? Who is supposed to instill in men to settle down? His mama? Cuz I know you ain't talkin' about his girl. We do dang near everything but beg for our ring!!! LOL! I think that's a message that needs to come from a man. I don't know, don't get me started on this, please, lol.

As far as some women being scandalous, it's a reason they got that way. Just like there are reasons why men cheat (Michael Baisden's book was the bomb). Vicious cycle, vicious cycle. *SIGH* Will the circle ever be unbroken?

And then it's like... what part do you settle on? I mean, what part of the relationship is not that important? If you find a hard working man who doesn't do as well on his night job, then what? Or if you find a man who works the hell outta his night job but is a buster, then what? Or he is well educated but is a womanizer? Or he is uneducated but hard working yet feels intimidated by your education? Or he is easy to talk to but is unmotivated and has no drive? Can I PLEASE get the total package?? My ex told me that I wanted it ALL and I can't have it ALL. Why not? :(

Then, when we're not discouraged, and we want a commitment, and we're looking for it, we are seen as desperate. WTF??? So, d*mn all that. I'm cool with me, and I'm going to kick it for a while.

Del, don't make ME go back to Birthday '02. Busters, I swear, lol.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by TLAW
Being a St Paul native, I refuse to believe that all the Minn brothers are that bad! Still, all your arguments can be flipped, you know. Not all women instil the need to settle down in men, and some are just downright scandalous. Same principle applies: Do not settle. There are good people, who can fulfill most of your desires. Now, I believe pursuit of Mr 100% Perfect is unreasonable, and some people are just impossible to satisfy. What are those attributes that you consider reasonable?

TLAW...based SOLELY on your posts, I would say you are a pretty good man. Unfortunately, you are an exception. NOW...do not read that to mean that there are no good men. What I mean is that you seem to grasp the concept that most men, and WOMEN for that matter, cannot until they have lived a while. It is maturity.

It is also mature, in my opinion, to realize it when you are not fully prepared to commit to someone else. That is how I feel right now.

Why is it the woman's responsibility to instill a need to settle down? It is each individuals responsibility to instill/determine when they are ready to settle down.

Attributes that are reasonable? Explain. Like are you asking for ideal characteristics in a mate?

Like you said earlier, being picky is not a bad thing. Settling down does not mean settling for .

[TLAW]

Well, thank you, Libra! *blushes*. Me and you go a lil ways back on Greekchat, don't we?
Anyways, I did not mean to imply that it was a woman's responsibility to make her man want to settle down. What I meant was that some women are just as bad, and make men want to run away. Like you said Ideal, it is a vicious cycle.
My humble words of advice are concepts you guys have already figured out: do not settle. And like Libra said, do not settle for .

[delph998]

Originally posted by TLAW
Being a St Paul native, I refuse to believe that all the Minn brothers are that bad! Still, all your arguments can be flipped, you know. Not all women instil the need to settle down in men, and some are just downright scandalous. Same principle applies: Do not settle. There are good people, who can fulfill most of your desires. Now, I believe pursuit of Mr 100% Perfect is unreasonable, and some people are just impossible to satisfy. What are those attributes that you consider reasonable?

Tlaw,

What's up fellow Minnesotan! It's great to meet others from the state. Maybe I'm having a problem because I'm a native of Mississippi and moved here...don't know. But, to respond to your comment about the brothas in Minnesota, let me tell you it is that bad. I don't know how bad it's been since you've visited, but trust, this is definitely the real deal.

Agreeing on what Libra said, it's apparent that you're an extremely cool brotha, which definitely makes you an exception! True, there are some scandalous sistas out there, but I know that I'm not one. In your last post you stated for us not to settle...that's exactly what so many of us women don't do and that's why we feel discouraged. That's all I'm saying.

[sphinxpoet]

What are we defining as commitment? GEtting married? Getting married is NO definite way to know that your man is committed. Do not be discouraged my sisters/sorors! There are plenty of good men out there! I think with the divorce rate as high as it is maybe it is time for BOTH men and women to revaluate how they take commitment. Men be true to what you do. Women if you are not getting what you want move on.

Sphinxpoet

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by TLAW
Well, thank you, Libra! *blushes*. Me and you go a lil ways back on Greekchat, don't we?
Anyways, I did not mean to imply that it was a woman's responsibility to make her man want to settle down. What I meant was that some women are just as bad, and make men want to run away.

No doubt.

There are some chicks that make men want to run away. That was my point initially, that there are parties on both sides who are at fault.

To me, here is the bottom line: People are SO worried about others that they forget to concentrate on themselves. That is why some folks are a mess today. When women worry so much about why this man is wrong and that man is wrong, they are neglecting to focus on what might be wrong with THEM.

As for me, I am still trying to get to know myself. I think I would be doing a man a disservice by trying to get him to committ to me before I can even committ to myself, feel me?

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by sphinxpoet
What are we defining as commitment? GEtting married? Getting married is NO definite way to know that your man is committed. Do not be discouraged my sisters/sorors! There are plenty of good men out there! I think with the divorce rate as high as it is maybe it is time for BOTH men and women to revaluate how they take commitment. Men be true to what you do. Women if you are not getting what you want move on.

Sphinxpoet

Good point...I think that marraige is simply an EXPRESSion of committment.

Committment itself is more of an acknowledged bond, and a willingness to sacrifice yourself for aother person.

Being a "husband" or "wife" is nothing more than a label. Being a "committed partner" in a relationship is something that doesn't necessarily require marriage.

[TLAW]

Well said, Sphinxpoet, Librasoul and Delp. Well said! I like your concepts Libra. Get to know yourself. And there are good people out there. Sometimes, I think our sistahs our guilty of looking in the wrong places.And yes, being a spouse is nothing but a label, albeit a srious legal one. What I mean is, I've heard people imply that they'll change their ways once they get married to the person. Heard about the leapords and his spots?

[sphinxpoet]

Originally posted by librasoul22


Good point...I think that marraige is simply an EXPRESSion of committment.

Committment itself is more of an acknowledged bond, and a willingness to sacrifice yourself for aother person.

Being a "husband" or "wife" is nothing more than a label. Being a "committed partner" in a relationship is something that doesn't necessarily require marriage.

How and why is marriage and divorce the only benchmarks that we have when measuring commitment? Is that why society puts such an emphisis on getting married? Do sisters really think there is a shortage of men or just there is a shortage of men that can deal with you and your specific issues? Just a question or 2?

Sphinxpoet

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by sphinxpoet


How and why is marriage and divorce the only benchmarks that we have when measuring commitment? Is that why society puts such an emphisis on getting married? Do sisters really think there is a shortage of men or just there is a shortage of men that can deal with you and your specific issues? Just a question or 2?

Sphinxpoet

Marraige and divorce..we have been socialized to think that we need some sort of ceremony to validate our feelings/committment. I *personally* do not feel it necessary, but that is another thread.

Shortage of men? Being real here: I think there is a shortage of men who meet certain qualifications that women are looking for. Every woman looks for something different in a man, so don't ask me what those qualifications are...I can only tell you what mine are.

[delph998]

Originally posted by sphinxpoet

Do sisters really think there is a shortage of men or just there is a shortage of men that can deal with you and your specific issues? Just a question or 2?

Sphinxpoet

Both, Sphinxpoet. Statistically, I know that there are more women than men, especially African American women and men. When I take a mental note of the things that I would like for my significant other to possess, I know that there's a huge shortage. I'll add more later.

[AKA2D '91]

That reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with my cousin. We were discussing her sister. At the time, her sister had been married ONCE, divorced AND married AGAIN.

Being the person that I am, I said "dayuuuummmmm, she's been married and divorced and married again and I haven't been married ONCE." LMAO. Her sister (also single) said, "well, you could be married too if you want to be married to ANY and EVERYTHING out there."

(If that's what it takes...nawwwww I'll pass.)


:o

Shortage of men? Being real here: I think there is a shortage of men who meet certain qualifications that women are looking for.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by sphinxpoet
How and why is marriage and divorce the only benchmarks that we have when measuring commitment? Is that why society puts such an emphisis on getting married? Do sisters really think there is a shortage of men or just there is a shortage of men that can deal with you and your specific issues? Just a question or 2?

Sphinxpoet

Libra, this makes me think of Jazzyfatnastees track 4. "Don't need no house, no picket fence, to show the world that we connect. Don't need no church, no diamond ring, to show the world... unlasting thing (i forget, lol)" I use this to say, marriage is not the end all be all of commitment. I want someone who is committed to me and my well being and growth: physically, mentally, and emotionally. I don't need marriage to prove to me a commitment, that's just a small piece of it. When I think of commitment, I also think of willingness. You are willing to work thru all the BS for the betterment of BOTH parties involved, to make each person and the relationship stronger. Why is it so easy to commit and work hard for an employer but not for a mate? It should be just the opposite. Commitment is important, ESPECIALLY physically. I am sharing the most intimate part of myself with you... and you are sharing yours with whoever? Times have changed, and that's too dangerous. Commitment means supporting each other and being each other's cheerleader!! Marriage is not commitment... there are a ton of married folk who are not committed to each other. Commitment to me is, I am here for you, down for whatever, ALWAYS. Ring or no ring, marriage or no marriage.

I believe that there is a shortage of men who can tell the truth and be monogamous. Not that they are all womanizers, just that they are weak when it comes to turning down the pannies. Men view things differently from us, I think. Didn't you hear what Jay-Z said? LOL! But seriously, I do think that it will be hard to find a man who will be able to handle me, specifically. I am not easy to take. I am loud, I'm smart, I'm not takin' your isht, I have motivation and drive, I look good, I have a lot of friends, I'm very emotional and cry a lot, I will cuss you out in a minute, my family is ghetto, I suffer from depression, I've been told I'm intimidating, and I don't trust men as far as I can lift them in the air. So yeah, I got issues, but like my fuchababyfavah, Musiq, said, "Hey, I got issues, you got issues, we all got issues."

It's time to eat, so I gotta go. :)

[TLAW]

But seriously, I do think that it will be hard to find a man who will be able to handle me, specifically. I am not easy to take. I am loud, I'm smart, I'm not takin' your isht

Loud and smart? For real?!!!! Nah!!!!!!!!!

Alright, just kidding. On the real, you are hardly different than the average black woman today.

[lovele1978]

I agree that commitment is more than marriage, and if you don't have that FIRST then that marriage is doomed. I am lucky and happy to say that I have been in a committed relationship for two years with someone I was friends with for five years prior to that. A lot of people keep asking us when we are going to get married, but to tell you the truth that is not the first thing on our agenda. With all the time that we have known each other we are still getting to KNOW each other (if that makes any sense):p . Sure I would love to spend the rest of my life with him, but if I am going to take that step I need to be 200% sure!

I have also gone through the discouraged phase of my life, and the ladies who are still there, are for good reason. While there may be some good men out there (i.e. well mannered, good job, educated, etc.), some of them are still missing that component to make a relationship work. And I know a lot of women who will stay in a relationship based on that basic criteria, and just accept all the other bull$#@& that may come along as well.

I think Ashanti said it best in "Foolish"......"All the things that we accept, be the things that we regret ".

[Koss28]

I'm not scared of committment. I just haven't found a decent woman yet. It's kinda hard to believe in a city the size of Houston but it seems like women my age are into game playing and being playettes themselves. I'm 28, have a good job and go to church pretty regularly. One woman I thought would work out got pregnant by some fool, the second thought she had it made dating some 19 year old just entering college and the third one wants her to throw away everything she believes in and do as he says. I thought she would have dropped him for that but she's thinking about it so oh well, time to move on.

[TLAW]

Tell em Koss! Tell 'em!

[librasoul22]

Sorry Koss and TLAW, 2 men out of how many? are not enough to convince me...

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by librasoul22
Sorry Koss and TLAW, 2 men out of how many? are not enough to convince me...

I'm not even looking to be convinced. I have faith that good men exist, because I know God wouldn't do me like that. We all have a different reality. What did you say in one of your posts, TLAW, you've already done your childish stuff? Koss, I guess the same applies to you? However, we are up against 'men' who are STILL being childish boys. The trick of it is reading thru the game. THAT is the thing right there. See, you could be just as genuine as you please with these women. If any of them have had experiences even similar to mine, they will still think it's game. And I've had male friends tell me, well, just give it time. Well, I did that last time, and what? I am afraid of having the wool pulled over my eyes. That's what frightens me. Trust issues.. trust issues. So for that reason, until that issue is removed from me, I don't want to be convinced about what men are out there or whatever, because I'm just not ready for him, yet.

[Koss28]

Originally posted by librasoul22
Sorry Koss and TLAW, 2 men out of how many? are not enough to convince me...


I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It's a two way street. At least in Houston it seems like the women are as bad as the guys and the good women don't trust the good guys and vice versa or they make obvious bad choices. Like thos one woman I know. She has known this guy for 10 years and she's pissed off at all these things he does yet instead of finding someone that fits more of what she's looking for, she decides to give him another chance and she's praying and meditating that he'll chance. Man, this cat hasn't changed in 10 years!!! What makes you think he'll change this time? You're wasting your time.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Koss28



I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It's a two way street. At least in Houston it seems like the women are as bad as the guys and the good women don't trust the good guys and vice versa or they make obvious bad choices. Like thos one woman I know. She has known this guy for 10 years and she's pissed off at all these things he does yet instead of finding someone that fits more of what she's looking for, she decides to give him another chance and she's praying and meditating that he'll chance. Man, this cat hasn't changed in 10 years!!! What makes you think he'll change this time? You're wasting your time.

First off...I didn't mean that I wasn't convinced that there are not good men. I meant that the fact that the two of you are good men does not sway me toward commitment, which is what this thread is about. Sorry about the miscommunication.

As far as your experiences go..does this mean that the 4 women (Nina Simone) you know have clouded your judgment? Have you globalized their actions to include the entire populice of women? Hmmm...this whole globalizing thing has given me deja vu...;)

If you check my very first post, I said that women are just as guilty as men, and that I am tired of women always trying to blame the guys. So I am not sure what point you are trying to prove with me...

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by Koss28
What makes you think he'll change this time? You're wasting your time.

See, you (and she) think she's holding on because she thinks he'll change. WRONG! She's holding on probably because 1) she has invested a decade in his sorry behind, and it sucks to feel like you've wasted all that time for nothing, 2) she doesn't want to be alone, or 3) she doesn't want to have to start all over in the game (especially after listening to the issues your girls are having).

These are the stupid things that some of us do, and we rationalize them. She probably thinks that every man is gonna be like him anyway, but there are many things about him that she loves, he's probably trained sexually and maybe socially (not that we train yall :halo:, lol), and she's not willing to let go of the GOOD in him. She's not willing to let go of the GOOD memories.

Your theory suggests that people don't change. See, we know that people do, because God changes people. Where women make mistakes is that instead of LEAVING him and allowing the two of you to GROW SEPARATELY, we want to grow together, and that's impossible. Because what we really hate is putting in all that work, then we get fed up, break up, the mofo changes, and goes and gets another woman. After all our hard work, lol. This is how we think, ok. And not all of us, and not necessarily me. And then, like Ashanti said, we regret all the stuff. Not to mention, we see the potential in a man that he can't see in himself. We are nurturers by nature, and of course, we want to bring out that potential. That's why she's praying, that's why we stay for so long. We want to be there to see your light shine, to let us know that all the BS was worth it.

See, I think a lot about this. You also have to take into account what type of relationships people see growing up. You tend to end up wanting (or accepting) what you've seen. Maybe she comes from a family where the women are in relationships for years with no commitment. You just never really know.

I'm not saying she's not wasting her time, I'm just trying to give you a little insight, just like you're doing with us. :)

[Koss28]

Ok, that's cool Libra. Not trying to prove anything, just throwing my $1.99 in. No, my view of women is not colored at all. Just sucks that committment is becoming an outdated term in society.

[Shelacious]

Is there any wonder we are in a quandry regarding relationships? In reading both this thread as well as the other started by Aspire, this is what I see. You may not agree with any of this, I don’t even agree with all of it myself per se, but it’s simply food for thought:

-Very few people seem to have a clear understanding of what constitutes a successful relationship. Is the most important aspect love, respect, commonality, understanding? Do all these elements have to be place or best of two out of three? What is love, anyway? Do we overestimate its power and its place in a life-long relationship?

-Men and women appear to have both been painted into major corners that prohibit the nature progression of relationships. Men expect women to bring their “A” game, including all the things listed by Aspire PLUS sex and intimacy. Women expect men to bring THEIR “A” game, including the highest earning potential they can muster. None of us can possibly ever bring our “A” game, however, because we are all a work in progress. We can only bring the best game we have at the time. Have we been too influenced by the videos, novels, movies and television, which tell us the ideal relationship, and really the only one worth having, must include the perfect balance of the mind, body and soul? That if a person brings baggage, issues, personality flaws in a relationship that it’s best to keep searching, because there’s someone out there for us who has almost everything we’re looking for? Influenced by those who tell us that if we no longer love our mate and/or if we are no longer “happy,” then that signals the end of the relationship?

-The expectation and inclusion of sex has created an unfair balance in relationships. Used to be, a guy respected a woman for not “giving in.” He in fact only wanted to marry a woman who was reluctant to “give in.” While that may still be the case to some extent, most guys in “my” unscientific field poll did NOT think they would be willing to wait to be married to have sex with a woman they thought was “the one.” Generally it seems that women have accepted this fact. It used to be that guys were willing to wait for the “good girl” because there was a clear line between “bad girls” and “good girls.” That line is no longer so clear. There are plenty of shrill, nagging, unsupportive women who are celibate (either have always been or are now) and a bunch of top-self quality women a guy would take home to mamma who are not. In other words, why would they take a chance with Ms. Celibate if there are a bunch of dime pieces who bring what she does PLUS? For things to go back to the way they were in our parents’ days, the dime pieces and top-notch chicks would need to all keep their legs closed and the eyes on the prize—doesn’t look like that’s going to happen anytime soon. As the article pointed out, men have traditionally gotten married in part to guarantee instant sex on demand—remove that barrier, and what do you have…?

-We want all the I’s dotted and the T’s crossed before we “jump” into marriage. After all, isn’t that why the divorce rate is over 50%, and 25% of the rest are in terrible marriages? Or is it? Is getting to know someone for five years and living with them for two more any better a recipe for a successful union than dating someone exclusively for a year and then getting engaged? How can we ever be sure that “someone” is “THE ONE?” How can you “ever” be totally “ready” to be married, especially when we’re never really “ready” for other life-altering experiences?

-Looking for “love” in all the wrong places? Are we unsuccessful because we are barking up the wrong trees? Are the folks we are usually “attracted to” not really the folks we should be looking to for a lifelong pairing? Do we need to start looking for love in different packages than we thought they “should” come in? Do we select men/women over and over with the similar traits, that spelled disaster previously or better yet, do WE bring the same traits over and over into a relationship yet each time we expect different results?

Again, just some food for thought.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Shelacious
Is there any wonder we are in a quandry regarding relationships? In reading both this thread as well as the other started by Aspire, this is what I see. You may not agree with any of this, I don’t even agree with all of it myself per se, but it’s simply food for thought:

-Very few people seem to have a clear understanding of what constitutes a successful relationship. Is the most important aspect love, respect, commonality, understanding? Do all these elements have to be place or best of two out of three? What is love, anyway? Do we overestimate its power and its place in a life-long relationship?

-Men and women appear to have both been painted into major corners that prohibit the nature progression of relationships. Men expect women to bring their “A” game, including all the things listed by Aspire PLUS sex and intimacy. Women expect men to bring THEIR “A” game, including the highest earning potential they can muster. None of us can possibly ever bring our “A” game, however, because we are all a work in progress. We can only bring the best game we have at the time. Have we been too influenced by the videos, novels, movies and television, which tell us the ideal relationship, and really the only one worth having, must include the perfect balance of the mind, body and soul? That if a person brings baggage, issues, personality flaws in a relationship that it’s best to keep searching, because there’s someone out there for us who has almost everything we’re looking for? Influenced by those who tell us that if we no longer love our mate and/or if we are no longer “happy,” then that signals the end of the relationship?

-The expectation and inclusion of sex has created an unfair balance in relationships. Used to be, a guy respected a woman for not “giving in.” He in fact only wanted to marry a woman who was reluctant to “give in.” While that may still be the case to some extent, most guys in “my” unscientific field poll did NOT think they would be willing to wait to be married to have sex with a woman they thought was “the one.” Generally it seems that women have accepted this fact. It used to be that guys were willing to wait for the “good girl” because there was a clear line between “bad girls” and “good girls.” That line is no longer so clear. There are plenty of shrill, nagging, unsupportive women who are celibate (either have always been or are now) and a bunch of top-self quality women a guy would take home to mamma who are not. In other words, why would they take a chance with Ms. Celibate if there are a bunch of dime pieces who bring what she does PLUS? For things to go back to the way they were in our parents’ days, the dime pieces and top-notch chicks would need to all keep their legs closed and the eyes on the prize—doesn’t look like that’s going to happen anytime soon. As the article pointed out, men have traditionally gotten married in part to guarantee instant sex on demand—remove that barrier, and what do you have…?

-We want all the I’s dotted and the T’s crossed before we “jump” into marriage. After all, isn’t that why the divorce rate is over 50%, and 25% of the rest are in terrible marriages? Or is it? Is getting to know someone for five years and living with them for two more any better a recipe for a successful union than dating someone exclusively for a year and then getting engaged? How can we ever be sure that “someone” is “THE ONE?” How can you “ever” be totally “ready” to be married, especially when we’re never really “ready” for other life-altering experiences?

-Looking for “love” in all the wrong places? Are we unsuccessful because we are barking up the wrong trees? Are the folks we are usually “attracted to” not really the folks we should be looking to for a lifelong pairing? Do we need to start looking for love in different packages than we thought they “should” come in? Do we select men/women over and over with the similar traits, that spelled disaster previously or better yet, do WE bring the same traits over and over into a relationship yet each time we expect different results?

Again, just some food for thought.

OMG...This is quite possibly the best post EVER!

[TLAW]

Shelacious, I am gonna step out on a very unpopular limb and agree with you, especially about the intimacy issue you raised. I await the downpour...
Like you said, it's not gonna happen soon.

[delph998]

Shelacious, very well said.

[Swamp Thang]

Mostly because it's based on a tenent that's incorrect.

There are plenty of good Black Men out there.. just as there are plenty of good Black Women out there.. ( y'all already know that.. cause chances are you've been in a friends wedding who has a good Man/Woman )...

(2). Men aren't afraid of marriage.. Men are afraid of Divorce...

[phisigsigchic]

Personally I just think its hilarious that this was conducted by a professor at RUTGERS!!! (my school...GO SCARLET KNIGHTS!) HEHEHEHEHE thought that was real funny. and we all know HUMANS are scared of committment. And its all thanks to society and how they make marriage seem like the old ball and chain and that you eventually will get divorced. this is totally not true. my parents have been happily married for over 30 years. my big sisters parents happily married for over 20 years. so some people do beat the odds. its all in how you view it. if you see marriage as that "ball and chain" then yes you will prob end up getting divorced. but if you see and treat marriage as a wonderful next step in life with a person that you love very much and you make a family together, then your def gonna stay happily married :) thats my opinion anyway.

[Rain Man]

Ladies,

Do you want to know a secret about us men?

Contrary to popular belief, men are NOT, repeat, NOT afraid of committment with a woman. Men are afraid of the CONSEQUENCES that arise from committment (and it isn't that he has to be a one-woman man, either).

Simply put, a lot of men will not commit to a woman because oftentimes, by doing so would be to his detriment. The woman gets all of the benefits, while he gets all of the responsibilities and obligations. The risks are also very high for him, as he stands to lose all he has worked for. Everything.

The reason for this?

Feminism.





(or rather, feminism gone awry).

More later if you're interested.

[James]

Some random thoughts as an unreformed male.

A man I know walked up to me the other day and said: If you knew that 60 percent of all airline flights crashed . .would you fly?

I answered: no. Then he said, why would you get married?

And he is right. Also with a guy . . 60 percent of marriages fail and there is an enormous economic cost for the male.

That 60 percent statistic may be generous also because it includes a whole generation that didn't much divorce.

Some of the men i know that have divorced have lost 75 percent of their assets. Thats an expensive committment.

Playing the Devil's Advocate: Why should men want to do that? When we can live with you and treat you with love and affection as long as both parties are loving and affectionate?

A legal relationship like marriage only really kicks in when one or more parties no longer wants to be with the other one but stays anyway because of the marriage committment.

Seriously, religious considerations aside: Why should a man want to marry a women he loves when he already has a great relationship with her . . . after all as long as they love and adore each other they will want to be together.

And why should either party want to keep the other one in a relationship that person no longer wishes to be in?

[9dstpm]

Originally posted by James
Some random thoughts as an unreformed male.

A man I know walked up to me the other day and said: If you knew that 60 percent of all airline flights crashed . .would you fly?

I answered: no. Then he said, why would you get married?

And he is right. Also with a guy . . 60 percent of marriages fail and there is an enormous economic cost for the male.

That 60 percent statistic may be generous also because it includes a whole generation that didn't much divorce.

Some of the men i know that have divorced have lost 75 percent of their assets. Thats an expensive committment.

OK, first of all: WHAT enormous economic cost? A very close friend and former professor of mine once told me that when a couple with children divorces, the wife becomes a single mother and the husband becomes a bachelor. Case in point: I just got divorced and my ex has a spanking brand new car while I drive the 10 yr old station wagon. He can go away every weekend that he's not working while I have to plan my getaways months in advance. His income is practically disposable while I'm paying ALL of the bills and going without things I want or having to put them on layaway!! Oh and did I mention that he's still on my health, dental, and vision insurance until I leave my job on Wednesday due to some screwed up paperwork? I mean, yeah, I'm about to move to FL and into a much better paying job and such but this nucca is COSTING me $$!! Not to mention that when were married, he got all the benefits while I worked my ass off!! So squash that!!

I've been married and divorced TWICE and you know what? I'd LOVE to get married again, but not for another 3-5 years!! I'm having a great time dating and just seeing what's out there. But to tell the truth and shame the devil, my heart belongs to my boo. Always has, always will. Oh I loved both of my ex hubbies in their own way, but I love my boo the best. Now, we've talked about the committment thing. And he IS scared. Not of committing to me by the way, but he's scared of failure. His parents are divorced, I've been divorced so I understand his fear and he's working on it. To further tell the truth, I'd be glad to live with him and his kids. I don't have to marry him. I mean, we've loved each other (near and afar) for the better part of 18 years. If we get married, good. If we don't, oh well. We make each other happy. Even when we're arguing over the price of a Ford Focus on The Price Is Right, we're happy.

[southernelle25]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Soapbox.gif

To respond, in part, to Rain Man, I believe commitment imposes enormous responsibilities on both parties. It also offers tremendous benefits. Unfortunately, the divorce rate is sky high because, IMO, women get married with only the the benefits in mind and men are simply NOT READY for the responsibilities and obligations.

I don't know whether the ultimate problem is immaturity or lack of understanding and communication, but I think it has less to do with feminism and more to do with this culture of entitlement. Marriage requires sacrifice and selflessness, and those are unfamiliar terms in modern society.

[SummerChild]

I agree. I think that the prevalence of divorce is closely related to the me, me, me attitude that is prevalent in our society to an extent that it probably has never been before. I read in a book that if you want to get married to enrich your own life to not get married - but if you want to get married to enrich the life of your partner, then get married. In other words, if you are getting married to come up, don't do it.

I think that there is also a lack of seriousness re the vows that are generally taken. I think that some people think that for better or worse until death do you part means until you have gotten on my last nerves. If that's the case, why not just re-write the vows and say what you really mean (or intend to do). I'm sure that I'm archaic in this regard but I have the feeling that for me if I marry, unless it is life threatening (ex: like if he is kicking my butt), then we need to work it out. I'm archaic but I think that the fact that many people probably think that they should divorce if they are being greatly inconvenienced is probably a reason why it is so prevalent.

Also, I think that it may be prevalent because it seems like some people are way too concerned about how a man (or woman) looks on paper than what the core qualities of that person are - and they just don't pay attention. Many people that are arrogant fools or irresponsible with money or liars/cheaters or hotheaded were that way before the ring went on. We just choose to see what we want to see b/c how are we going to pass up this college educated black man or this woman who can be your trophy wife? Then when we find out that our ideas about how to manage money are irreconciable, then we are all surprised. Uh hello, spend more time thinking about the core personality characteristics of that person, and how they conduct themselves in various situations, than how many degrees he has. I think that there is someone for everyone - I just think that some chose those that are not for them but b/c it's convenient and our biological clocks are ticking, we roll with it.

SC



Originally posted by southernelle25
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Soapbox.gif

To respond, in part, to Rain Man, I believe commitment imposes enormous responsibilities on both parties. It also offers tremendous benefits. Unfortunately, the divorce rate is sky high because, IMO, women get married with only the the benefits in mind and men are simply NOT READY for the responsibilities and obligations.

I don't know whether the ultimate problem is immaturity or lack of understanding and communication, but I think it has less to do with feminism and more to do with this culture of entitlement. Marriage requires sacrifice and selflessness, and those are unfamiliar terms in modern society.

[Honeykiss1974]

Let me start off by saying that my view on love/marriage is based on a religious/Christian POV.

Everyone's talked a lot about marriage and how large of a commitment it is - which is all true. However, on a more personal level, we should really be examining the qualities or requirements/standards that we have set for "future mate". For example, are you looking for a man/woman that is rich, handsome, body like Beyonce/Usher? Or you looking for a hardworking man/woman that is romantic, has a sense of humor, and loves family more than anything?

The bible tells us the "Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised." (Proverbs 31 29-30). (now this can apply to a man too). I firmly believe that when you are raptured by physical/outside qualities of a person and base your mate selection on that, then you are building a house on sand as opposed to a rock. I've seen SO MANY people use the wrong criteria for determining whether or not someone is mate material and then wonder why things didn't work out (divorce).

For example, in Proverns 31, at no point in the chapter is a physical description of the woman's appearance is given - but yet all the traits and qualities about this kind of woman is what a man should look for in a wife. These are qualities that do not go out style, but qualities that when the going get's tough, these attributes will help the couple weather the storm.

I'm not saying its wrong to be attracted to your mate (which is a whole 'nother subject), but it takes more for a marriage to last that a nice booty in a mini skirt or for the ladies, a 6 pack in a wifebeater.

[Rain Man]

Two of the many sources for my assertion that feminism is hurting men wanting to get committed to a relationship:



Marriage: Just Say No (http://www.cooltools4men.com/MarriageJustSayNo.htm)

Dont Marry.com (http://www.dontmarry.com)

[SummerChild]

Rain Man, I only looked at the first link but it is absolutely ridiculous. As I said, if people would just take the time to get to know who they are dealing with then many of the author's points would not be an issue. It seems to me that the author (and other men who believe that garbage) need to re-evaluate their selection of women. The whoa-is-me-no-woman-is-going-to-treat-me-right line of thinking is tired.

SC

Originally posted by Rain Man
Two of the many sources for my assertion that feminism is hurting men wanting to get committed to a relationship:



Marriage: Just Say No (http://www.cooltools4men.com/MarriageJustSayNo.htm)

Dont Marry.com (http://www.dontmarry.com)

[soulfulremix]

Originally posted by southernelle25
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Soapbox.gif

:o

[starang21]

Originally posted by Rain Man
Two of the many sources for my assertion that feminism is hurting men wanting to get committed to a relationship:



Marriage: Just Say No (http://www.cooltools4men.com/MarriageJustSayNo.htm)

Dont Marry.com (http://www.dontmarry.com)

dude is kinda paranoid, but he raises some good points.

but seems like a cat who probably couldn't handle a woman who was more successful than him.

[starang21]

chivalry is dead.

and women killed it.

LOL.

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by starang21
chivalry is dead.

and women killed it.

LOL.

Ladies, don't believe the hype! It's alive and well! :D

[Proverbs31]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974

The bible tells us the "Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised." (Proverbs 31 29-30). (now this can apply to a man too).

Love that verse :D

[James]

I am not sure that many people have the social skills to keep a romantic relatationship going for a long time. And I think the expectations are so much higher.

In the beginning everyone is on their best behavior, we are charming, clever, affable, and the men act romantically.

For most people thats an aberation to their everyday life. Much like people that are extremely nice at Christmas and not so nice the rest of the year.

In order to keep romance in a relationship you have to posses both excellent social skills and coping skills.

You have to be able to sustain a charming affable veneer the vast majority of time. In fact that has to be essentially who you are.

And you need to be kind of person that constantly does the little things that differentiate a love affair from other types of friendship.

Most people just aren't that way, so they allow the relationship to fall into a comfortable mediocrity punctuated by occassional attempts to "restore the passion" which means they make an effort to do what they should have never stopped doing.

That comfortable mediocrity is what most people call love.

Your coping skills rank right up with your social skills in importance. By coping skills I am referring to your ability to deal with the everyday upsets and stress common to life.

IF your coping mechanisms make you unhappy a significant portion of the time, or make you angry easy or in other ways make your partner's life unhappy . . . then you have become a stressor to your partner which erodes the romantic part of your relationship.

Seriously, the vast majority of people I know have no effective means of coping with stress, pressure, tension, life or whatever you want to call it.

So they act out in ways they are usually not aware of that slowly erodes their relationships because their partner picks up on the unhappiness and it makes them unhappy.

Ok I am kind off on a tangent . . . but I keep thinking that unless we start training people to deal with their own lives better, and then expand their social skills until they can behave towards people in a positive way that elicits the reactions they want; we are just going to have a lot unsuccessful relationships.

Unsuccessful if they leave, and unsuccessful if they stay.

And given that expectations are so much higher today . . . no matter how much people sugar coat, they will know in the deep dark sadness of their soul that their relationship is a pale imitation of the brightness and romance that they both desire and could possess if their life skills were a little sharper and their courage was a little greater.



Originally posted by SummerChild
Rain Man, I only looked at the first link but it is absolutely ridiculous. As I said, if people would just take the time to get to know who they are dealing with then many of the author's points would not be an issue. It seems to me that the author (and other men who believe that garbage) need to re-evaluate their selection of women. The whoa-is-me-no-woman-is-going-to-treat-me-right line of thinking is tired.

SC

[southernelle25]

Originally posted by soulfulremix Originally posted by southernelle25
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/10/Soapbox.gif


:o

:cool: :D

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Let me start off by saying that my view on love/marriage is based on a religious/Christian POV.

Everyone's talked a lot about marriage and how large of a commitment it is - which is all true. However, on a more personal level, we should really be examining the qualities or requirements/standards that we have set for "future mate". For example, are you looking for a man/woman that is rich, handsome, body like Beyonce/Usher? Or you looking for a hardworking man/woman that is romantic, has a sense of humor, and loves family more than anything?

The bible tells us the "Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised." (Proverbs 31 29-30). (now this can apply to a man too). I firmly believe that when you are raptured by physical/outside qualities of a person and base your mate selection on that, then you are building a house on sand as opposed to a rock. I've seen SO MANY people use the wrong criteria for determining whether or not someone is mate material and then wonder why things didn't work out (divorce).

For example, in Proverns 31, at no point in the chapter is a physical description of the woman's appearance is given - but yet all the traits and qualities about this kind of woman is what a man should look for in a wife. These are qualities that do not go out style, but qualities that when the going get's tough, these attributes will help the couple weather the storm.

I'm not saying its wrong to be attracted to your mate (which is a whole 'nother subject), but it takes more for a marriage to last that a nice booty in a mini skirt or for the ladies, a 6 pack in a wifebeater.

Amen!

[SummerChild]

So James, will you share some of the behaviors that are aligned with having coping skills? I hear you but it's kind of abstract. Can you bring it home for me?
SC


Originally posted by James
I am not sure that many people have the social skills to keep a romantic relatationship going for a long time. And I think the expectations are so much higher.

In the beginning everyone is on their best behavior, we are charming, clever, affable, and the men act romantically.

For most people thats an aberation to their everyday life. Much like people that are extremely nice at Christmas and not so nice the rest of the year.

In order to keep romance in a relationship you have to posses both excellent social skills and coping skills.

You have to be able to sustain a charming affable veneer the vast majority of time. In fact that has to be essentially who you are.

And you need to be kind of person that constantly does the little things that differentiate a love affair from other types of friendship.

Most people just aren't that way, so they allow the relationship to fall into a comfortable mediocrity punctuated by occassional attempts to "restore the passion" which means they make an effort to do what they should have never stopped doing.

That comfortable mediocrity is what most people call love.

Your coping skills rank right up with your social skills in importance. By coping skills I am referring to your ability to deal with the everyday upsets and stress common to life.

IF your coping mechanisms make you unhappy a significant portion of the time, or make you angry easy or in other ways make your partner's life unhappy . . . then you have become a stressor to your partner which erodes the romantic part of your relationship.

Seriously, the vast majority of people I know have no effective means of coping with stress, pressure, tension, life or whatever you want to call it.

So they act out in ways they are usually not aware of that slowly erodes their relationships because their partner picks up on the unhappiness and it makes them unhappy.

Ok I am kind off on a tangent . . . but I keep thinking that unless we start training people to deal with their own lives better, and then expand their social skills until they can behave towards people in a positive way that elicits the reactions they want; we are just going to have a lot unsuccessful relationships.

Unsuccessful if they leave, and unsuccessful if they stay.

And given that expectations are so much higher today . . . no matter how much people sugar coat, they will know in the deep dark sadness of their soul that their relationship is a pale imitation of the brightness and romance that they both desire and could possess if their life skills were a little sharper and their courage was a little greater.

[AKA_Monet]

COMMUNICATION!!!

Any questions?

[AKA_Monet]

The communication has to be both ways and it has to shared to make the communication work no matter how one feels. Sure, someone may need at least 24 hours to cool down or whatever. But once everything has cooled, then it time to resume the issue and not skirt it so that it will blow up all again.

Some of that is some internal work that each partner must do individually.

Then why would one want to marry an kniving [sp?], evil, punk-assed, silly stupid person...

And even from a Christian perspective, it is about being equally yolked... More than anything else. And it is about letting God provide. If God wants to provide you with a mate, then it will happen. But once you force it to happen, then that is really not of God. Always the "telltale" signs are there--something shady or flags are waving... Whatever it is, what else is God suppose to do to tell you NOT to be with this person?

For me, I waited until my mid-30's to get married my first time... And now, I am in my late-30's and may have missed out on having children because I waited for the best man for me--the one I sincerely and truly believe that God has set before me. There were plenty of other men before my husband, but all of the relationships that I had, I was forcing it to make it happen. I could have gotten married to a millionaire, a medical doctor, pilot or a corporate lawyer... But each "type" of guy, I knew... I just somehow knew that this man was not the one for me. My heart NEVER fluttered--no smile to my face when I "fathomed" these guys...

But when my husband came around, it was something about him, call it his character that instantly attracted me to him... As far as getting him to commit to me, that was what we both wanted at the same time. The whole relationship fell together. Sure we have our issues and sometimes we fight like cats and dogs. But, there are many ways to ensure the best communication between your significant other. And sometimes, it just may be silence with prayer...

[enigma_AKA]

^^^I'm not even married, but co-sign on communication. My parents have been married for over 30 years and communication is what they both maintain keeps it going. In any relationship, you have to be open and clear about your intentions, issues, etc. Games are for children, so when you become grown, stop playing them. Say what needs to be said and if he is not trying to hear it, keep stepping on to the next man who will. Stop trying to 'change' him into Mr. Caring. That's not your job.

Add 'not overanalyzing' to that too. Women ---especially--- get so caught up in trying to figure out 'why this, why that---just why?!' that we miss out on the reality of the situation we're in. Then we do dumb stuff like 'well, you know, he's a man. He's made to act that way, etc' and we don't consider what we may be doing to cause these actions. Or maybe we can't accept that it's not all men, it's this one mutha-effa who won't/can't act right and that we need to just move on.

Bottom line: All men don't cheat; your's did. All men aren't afraid of committment; your's is. All men aren't dogs; your's is. Hell, women are just as, and in many cases more so, doggish than men. It just depends on how the wheel is spun.

We will waste millions of dollars and time into trying to be psychoanalysts and miss out on the learning/loving experience of being in love/having a real. loving relationship. If you keep finding doggish men, chances are, the problem isn't the doggish men, it's you. Do something different.

enigma_AKA

[darling1]

WELL SAID!!

I COSIGN....

[Rain Man]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
NEW YORK (Reuters) -- It's official. Men really are afraid of commitment.

Confirming what women have long known, an American study released on Wednesday shows men are dragging their feet on getting married.

Researchers say one of the biggest reasons that men are delaying marriage is that more and more couples are choosing to live together before marriage. As a result, sex -- traditionally one of the main reasons for men to marry -- is relatively easily available, they say.

"In a sense, with cohabitation he gets a quasi-wife without having to commit," said David Popenoe, co-director of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

"Another big thing in addition to cohabitation is that these men are very, very concerned about divorce. It's not getting your heart broken ... the worst thing that could happen is that somebody could take their money," Popenoe adds.

The preliminary findings report on the attitudes toward marriage of 60 unmarried, heterosexual men, between the ages of 25-33. The participants, from different religious, ethnic and family backgrounds, were from four major metropolitan areas in northern New Jersey, Chicago, Houston, and Washington, D.C.

Researchers say both men and women are putting off getting married. The average age for men's first marriage is now 27, the oldest in history, the study shows. That compares to the average age of 23 in 1960, Popenoe said.

For women, the average age of their first marriage has risen to 25, a full five years older than the 1960 average.

And giving women even more reason to be impatient that their boyfriends are dragging their feet, researchers say the trend favors the men.

"Guys can afford to wait to marry. The older they get, the better their chances in some ways of getting married, while for women it's the reverse," Popenoe said.

"Once a woman gets into her 30s, it's more likely that she will have to marry a man who was married earlier. It's more likely that she will marry a man who brings kids (into the marriage) and more likely that she will have a child by herself," Popenoe says.

Copyright 2002 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

The website that details the findings based on the above article can be found here:

The State of Our Unions; The Social Health of Marriage in America (http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/SOOU/TEXTSOOU2002.htm)