Family Love?

[Senusret I]

Was the "Family Love" thread deleted? If so, why?

[Dionysus]

I think so. It was too much drama. :D

[gamma_girl52]

Well, I asked the moderator to lock it down, but I see he took one extra step and just deleted it entirely.

What started as a MATURE discusssion ended up becoming people going back and forth at each other, being downright disrespectful towards each other, and we completely lost focus of what we were talking about.

I'd personally like to keep discussing it, but on a mature level, of course...I asked for it to be locked down because it was getting out of control...but maybe in the future we can discuss that as adults. At least some of us were trying to the whole way through.

[Senusret I]

1) Is it possible for the moderator to come up with a set of rules for the board, particularly about respect?

2) Can particular posts be deleted, or does the entire thread have to be?

3) What do you mean by "locking" a thread? Do you mean closing it so that it is "read-only?"

4) I really hope we can continue in that dialogue in the future.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by dardenr

3) What do you mean by "locking" a thread? Do you mean closing it so that it is "read-only?"

4) I really hope we can continue in that dialogue in the future.

3)Yes when someone locks a thread it is "read only".

4) As long as it doesn't get "ghetto". :D

[pirate00]

I wanted to just lock the thread, however my computer just kept thinking about doing that for 20 minutes, so, I became impatient and just deleted the whole thing. Sorry about that. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that many feelings were getting too revved up and many newbies were concerned about the flare-up. Also, I recieved numerous PM requests to shut it down, so, I did. As a Moderator I'm obligated to listen to the requests of those who post here. Healthy debate is good, but it must be respectful and constructive. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Happy posting!

[gamma_girl52]

Can we give this another shot then? I thought it was a good dialouge, even if it was between like, 5 people :D

Brother Moderator, I won't start until I get a green light from ya...
It was good convo, I'd like to pick it back up.

[pirate00]

You have the go ahead! :)

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by dardenr

4) I really hope we can continue in that dialogue in the future.

Well...got more thoughts that you haven't shared yet, sir? :D
I'm still thinking on mine...

[bro_strawter]

Yeah, I asked the moderator to delete the thread myself. When I noticed that over 1000 users had viewed the thread, I knew right then and there it had to go. Plus, outsiders we're pm-ing me about it. It didn't look good.

I have a million and ten things I could discuss regarding APO and GSS. What would you guys like to talk about?

[Senusret I]

I'm still pondering my thoughts, too.

I actually had a few paragraphs typed out. . .but y'all ain't ready, lol.

:)

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by bro_strawter

I have a million and ten things I could discuss regarding APO and GSS. What would you guys like to talk about?

Well, bruh...just start with 1 :p :D then I can try to pick it up. Ask a question.

Buffalo Soldier, don't tease with that comment, man! I wanna see the paragraphs, man!

[superpledge]

i have a few questions but i think i was just shut my yap for now

[Senusret I]

Gamma Girl. . . .naw. . .remember the onion I was talking about? Like I said, many layers and a smelly center. . . :)

superpledge. . .you might not be looking for my opinion on anything in particular, but if you are, you can always PM me.

[superpledge]

dardenr thanks but i dont have any thing to say right now i just wanna see what happends..

[gamma_girl52]

Hello all,

I know we haven't talked about this one in a minute. And this thread was probably one of the best convos I have had with my brothers and sisters.

The reason why I'm bringing this back up...I met a couple of you at the annual Cookout this year (Casanova, Big Papa 29 and bro_strawter, but he didn't know my face when I hugged him, lol). And I wanted to ask some questions, to get it started.

The first question is actually directed to Casanova, who pledged at a co-ed chapter and this was his first "exposure", if you will, to the 25/52 family. What did you think? Honestly. I'd like to see what your opinon is on everything...hopefully it's not too loaded. But I think I need to see how you're looking at it from a co-ed member perspective.

And to my Psi Phi peeps...I did meet see young lady that was a member of your chapter and I don't think anybody treated her disrespectfully while she was there. But because ya'll are openly co-ed, and an African-American chapter as well, how well does your chapter "fit in" in the family? Have ya'll ever had drama before with other brothers/chapters because of it?

And to the group: I don't know about APO Nationals, but I believe my Nationals just doesn't know what to do with the fact that some of their members associate with APO...and the entire thing is not official to start with. Would it help any if we acknowledged each other more formally, including each other's organization in our history? Or maybe another avenue? I'm asking because I think in order for people to take "us" seriously, we are going to have to do something, and fast.

I think that's it for right now...let me hear your thoughts!

[~Q5~]

APO recognizes GSS...one sentence in the pledge manual is more than enough. That one small step probably took a half a century.

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by ~Q5~
APO recognizes GSS...one sentence in the pledge manual is more than enough. That one small step probably took a half a century.

Soror,

That's a good point, but from what I was told it wasn't exactly in the most positive way. More like Gamma Sig was in "violation" of Title X (or whatever title it was, lol). And you know that it's not written ANYWHERE in Gamma Sig history-it's more verbal than anything because one of our founders said it.

So to me, that one sentence isn't enough...and we ought to be portrayed in a more positive light...if I was misquoting the above, let me know.

[~Q5~]

well last i checked that wasnt so. I dont know how they could get that out of one sentence, but the pledge manual is online you can look it up for yourself.

Besides thats not the real point, the point is the wheels of APO turn very slowly and if you try to push it, its more than likely to stop all together than move forward. Some of us know it takes lots of time and planning to make things happen with apo. right now some of us are at the 2 year point and things are finally coming to the forefront

[prettyDrLuv]

"And to the group: I don't know about APO Nationals, but I believe my Nationals just doesn't know what to do with the fact that some of their members associate with APO...and the entire thing is not official to start with. Would it help any if we acknowledged each other more formally, including each other's organization in our history? Or maybe another avenue? I'm asking because I think in order for people to take "us" seriously, we are going to have to do something, and fast." - Gamma_girl52

I am confused. (I just read this thread, and I don't know what was said in the other thread that was deleted.) Why do you feel that it is important to your sorority to be recognized by my fraternity? Who is the "us" that you refer to? Is it Gamma Sigma Sigma alone or both Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma?

Although I do understand that Gamma Sigma Sigma has a very close relationship with many chapters, the same can be said of Omega Phi Alpha. I think everyone should be proud of their history, as I am proud of mine. That being said, not all chapters of Alpha Phi Omega are affliliated with a service sorority and even if a service sorority is located on their campus, that partnership should be left to each chapter's discretion, regardless of history. I would be worried about that, if added to our history, Gamma Sigma Sigma would be too closely associated. (I mean no disrepect to your organization, but where would the line be drawn?)

Ultimately to ask Nationals or to vote at the convention to add Gamma Sigma Sigma more formally to our history is not something I would support.

In Leadership, Friendship and Service,

PrettyDrLuv

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by prettyDrLuv
"
Ultimately to ask Nationals or to vote at the convention to add Gamma Sigma Sigma more formally to our history is not something I would support.

In Leadership, Friendship and Service,

PrettyDrLuv

Dont think anyone would vote in favor of this one, i know i wouldnt vote for it either. The argument would probably be too strong against it. There are too many things that can turn awry ( i think thats the word i am looking for) and there is not enough answer to the question of why it is necessary/needed. It would have to benefit apo somehow for something like that to even come up for discussion so maybe we should tackle that.

How would it benefit APO as a whole (emphasis on the entire Nat'l org) to include GSS in its history? What about Omega Phi Alpha I mean if APO were to include anyone (not that it would happen mind you)I would expect it to be an org that includes it in its nat'l history. But it still goes back to how this would benefit APO...the service supermonster.

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by prettyDrLuv


I am confused. (I just read this thread, and I don't know what was said in the other thread that was deleted.) Why do you feel that it is important to your sorority to be recognized by my fraternity? Who is the "us" that you refer to? Is it Gamma Sigma Sigma alone or both Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma?

Although I do understand that Gamma Sigma Sigma has a very close relationship with many chapters, the same can be said of Omega Phi Alpha. I think everyone should be proud of their history, as I am proud of mine. That being said, not all chapters of Alpha Phi Omega are affliliated with a service sorority and even if a service sorority is located on their campus, that partnership should be left to each chapter's discretion, regardless of history. I would be worried about that, if added to our history, Gamma Sigma Sigma would be too closely associated. (I mean no disrepect to your organization, but where would the line be drawn?)

Ultimately to ask Nationals or to vote at the convention to add Gamma Sigma Sigma more formally to our history is not something I would support.

In Leadership, Friendship and Service,

PrettyDrLuv

I apologize if anything wasn't clear in the beginning. It wouldn't be, because the other thread was deleted and you would have known some other things talked about in that other thread.

I personally find it important because (without boring you too much with GSS history) our founders found that they wanted to form an organization similar to Alpha Phi Omega. Some of the founders were dating APO men at the time. So they credit APO a little bit for the reason why Gamma Sig was founded. Alpha Phi Omega wasn't the SOLE reason why, but important just the same. When GSS held a Convention some years after their founding, they invited the National President of your fraternity to participate.

You are right. It is up to each chapter to decide whether or not they want to affiliate with a service sorority on that campus. There are campuses where Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sig very openly acknowledge each other as brother and sister. So what I'm saying is that the relationship is there-why are people not acknowleging it. It's like it doesn't even exist and the national bodies of BOTH organizations know this is going on, but are not even speaking on it. Now that this relationship (otherwise known as "25/52") is growing, now everyone is examining it, trying to find out just where it came from. Maybe I'm seeing this more from my Nationals. The vibe I'm getting from most APO members is, "We really don't care and we're really not voting on that". Which is cool.

Hopefully this gave you some more clarification on the subject.

[notorious4it]

It seems to me that APO is an important part of our history because of the relationship between our founders and the APO men and that is something that should be preserved.
Just like with Phi Rho Eta Social Frat being foudned by ALpha phi Omega men and then using Frnak Reed Horton;s initials to come up with their letters. If I'm wrong correct me but the family is a way of preserving the relationship between our founders and Alpha Phi Omega so I dont understand why so any APO discredit the relationship it should be an honor to know that those before you were influential in the creation of the wonderful sorority.
Notorious

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by notorious4it
If I'm wrong correct me but the family is a way of preserving the relationship between our founders and Alpha Phi Omega so I dont understand why so any APO discredit the relationship it should be an honor to know that those before you were influential in the creation of the wonderful sorority.
Notorious

That's what we'd like to think with your above statement, but unfortunately the reality is that many Alpha Phi Omega members don't understand, know about, or care about the relationship between our sorority and their fraternity. And you know what, I can even say that with our OWN sisters...some of them don't know what the deal is and are not trying to know as well.

Which is why I am saying, this needs to be on paper, documented that the relationship is indeed there. I don't know about you soror, but when I was pledging, this is what I was taught. Not only did I learn about the 25/52 family, but I also learned about the history of the fraternity overall (basic info, not anything else). And this is why 25/52 continues. We teach it to new members and it spreads, however what's missing is not having it OFFICIALLY on paper somewhere. It's oral history and that's not "valid" if you feel what I'm saying. The story is there, most people in both orgs know about it, but the validity is not there.

Now it got me to thinking too, none of the D9 orgs (with the exception of the Blue and White) officially recognize those relationships between their orgs either. But the difference is, it's across the board.

What about that?

[Virtuous Woman]

The "problem" in my opinion about the whole 25/52 relationship is that it's not inclusive. If it were about ALL members of Alpha Phi Omega bonding and recognizing a common history with ALL members of Gamma Sigma Sigma it would be completely different. If it were inclusive then perhaps it would catch on and be documented but because it excludes a segment of both organizations, it doesn't make sense to put it on paper anywhere.

I have a question: What is the urgency or the necesity of recognizing the 25/52 relationship? D9 orgs (with the exception of Sigma and Zeta) do not recognize each other but people are still OK with this relationship and it is still able to prosper.

[~Q5~]

I hope thats not what this thread is going to end up talking about. Now i got to wonder was this just a ploy to get people talking about the "sect" definite no-no( only you would get that Bsoldier). Geez!sadness.

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by Virtuous Woman
The "problem" in my opinion about the whole 25/52 relationship is that it's not inclusive. If it were about ALL members of Alpha Phi Omega bonding and recognizing a common history with ALL members of Gamma Sigma Sigma it would be completely different. If it were inclusive then perhaps it would catch on and be documented but because it excludes a segment of both organizations, it doesn't make sense to put it on paper anywhere.

I have a question: What is the urgency or the necesity of recognizing the 25/52 relationship? D9 orgs (with the exception of Sigma and Zeta) do not recognize each other but people are still OK with this relationship and it is still able to prosper.





Well,

That is true. It doesn't include everyone (female frat members/male sorority members). But maybe that is the problem...*sigh* See, now that means we would have to get into why this was even created in the first place and I really do not want to get into that. The whole thread would be on fire, lol.

For me, I don't care about whether or not there are women in Alpha Phi Omega...that decision was made even before I was thought about. I have love for everybody, and quite frankly I'm about business within Gamma Sig and no where else. It's not so much that I'm burning up to get this documented-perhaps it doesn't need to be because we as organizations are doing just fine without it. I think what I am trying to do is let people know that we're out there and we're actually about something positive, not sitting around bashing those who don't participate.

This isn't going to turn into a pro-fam or against-fam discussion, because it's everybody's individual choice. Me, if you're a fraternity member then you're my brother, hands down. Male, female, whatever. It is so much bigger than that at least to me. I think we need to just have respect for each other's individual choice in organization. Does everybody feel me.

[prettyDrLuv]

After reading some more messages, I still maintain my original position and agree with Virtuous Woman. This is pretty interesting, although I do not understand some of it.

I do have some questions about Gamma Sigma Sigma. First, how many chapters currently are at universities that also have active chapters of Alpha Phi Omega? How many active chapters does Gamma Sigma Sigma have all together? (I have heard of your sorority, but know of no member personally.) Also, would it be fair to say that most of the chapters of Alpha Phi Omega that you, personally, are affiliated with are co-ed? (I know of less than 12 all-male chapters, maybe less.)

Maybe that would help me understand this more.

Thanks for your help.

In Leadership, Friendship and Service,
PrettyDrLuv

[notorious4it]

In all honesty most co-ed chapters that I know of don't really associate on the level with Gamma Sigs that all male chapters do. The guys don't like to upset the female members and I respect that so I just step off. I personally have no problem with female APOs because we have more in common than male APOs because not only are we about service but we're also women. SOme sorors don't feel the same some do. We need to communicate because if the two groups were able to come together and work it would be great for ou communities and schools
NOtorious #4

[gamma_girl52]

I'd have to get back to you on your first question but there's a good amount. Some recognize each other as bro/sister, most do not.

Gamma Sig has a total of 45 chapters counting alum.

I have met brothers that pledged @ a co-ed chapter, but still recognize me as a sister.

[bro_strawter]

Soror, I'll e-mail you or pm you when I get a chance. I'm sure you know, your post will go nowhere here. Perhaps you might need to direct your questions to "our" board.

[~Q5~]

Lets talk about family hate. Like........oooh I just HATE Bsoldier, he be getting on the nerves!!!! I swear he think he be talking about knowledge...somebody needs to stop listening to the voices in his head for real.

[Senusret I]

Yes, let's talk about family hate indeed. I HATE me some Q5. I mean, can the name be any shorter? So po' she can't afford words. So don't be hating because I know how to read and write and punctuate. . .reading is fundamental!

Originally posted by ~Q5~
Lets talk about family hate. Like........oooh I just HATE Bsoldier, he be getting on the nerves!!!! I swear he think he be talking about knowledge...somebody needs to stop listening to the voices in his head for real.

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
Yes, let's talk about family hate indeed. I HATE me some Q5. I mean, can the name be any shorter? So po' she can't afford words. So don't be hating because I know how to read and write and punctuate. . .reading is fundamental!



alrighty now sound like somebody want to sing the toast song naked in a cold river......talk now brother dear....but you know i know where to find you. Mr. Intellinegro got jokes, we'll see how long you can hold up against the devil herself.

[Senusret I]

Whatever hater! I done sung the toast song naked and upside down on a frozen lake! And I had to recite the founders backwards with a match between my eyelids.

And if you the Devil, what does that make me?

Originally posted by ~Q5~


alrighty now sound like somebody want to sing the toast song naked in a cold river......talk now brother dear....but you know i know where to find you. Mr. Intellinegro got jokes, we'll see how long you can hold up against the devil herself.

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
Whatever hater! I done sung the toast song naked and upside down on a frozen lake! And I had to recite the founders backwards with a match between my eyelids.

And if you the Devil, what does that make me?


Well i guess some would say the anti-christ. i think i will go with mephistophicles ( if you have to look that up i will personally sock you in the head)

[Senusret I]

Oh trust me, I know. . .lol. . .I think I'll put that on my jacket.


Originally posted by ~Q5~

Well i guess some would say the anti-christ. i think i will go with mephistophicles ( if you have to look that up i will personally sock you in the head)

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
Oh trust me, I know. . .lol. . .I think I'll put that on my jacket.




Now there's an idea. I was going to put some anti...stuff on mine but now you got me thinking.

But you know you cant be walking around getting people all confused. People got a hard enough time reading and writing in plain english don't get them all messed up by having to read a walking billboard.

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by bro_strawter
Soror, I'll e-mail you or pm you when I get a chance. I'm sure you know, your post will go nowhere here. Perhaps you might need to direct your questions to "our" board.

So I have learned, frat. Oh well, I didn't hurt to try anyway!
Have you been to "our" board over the last few days? It's entirely too hot over there, for real. Same old topics, over and over again...

[Senusret I]

But it could work if LITERACY was our national thrust for the next two years. . .:)


Originally posted by ~Q5~


Now there's an idea. I was going to put some anti...stuff on mine but now you got me thinking.

But you know you cant be walking around getting people all confused. People got a hard enough time reading and writing in plain english don't get them all messed up by having to read a walking billboard.

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
But it could work if LITERACY was our national thrust for the next two years. . .:)




oh man. did you go there...i know you didnt just go there. i just know you didnt. well check back for my edit on this post cause i want to put something good up when i get a chance.

[Virtuous Woman]

To Bro Strawter:
Perhaps you might need to direct your questions to "our" board

See, comments like that emphasize the disunity that causes people to "disagree" or "disapprove" of the whole 25/52.

I believe that she asked for OPINIONS and everyone is entitled to one. I really don't think the purpose of the thread was to have everyone post that they agreed with her.


To gamma_girl52 and Notorious4it:
I think what I am trying to do is let people know that we're out there and we're actually about something positive, not sitting around bashing those who don't participate

There is a LOT of bashing going on and that's what ruins it in the eyes of some people (including mine). I think it's wonderful for people to get together and for two organizations to appreciate their common history and purpose but it becomes tainted when it causes a division within both organizations.


We need to communicate because if the two groups were able to come together and work it would be great for ou communities and schools

I agree but it is totally impossible to have UNITY through division.

I personally have no problem with female APOs because we have more in common than male APOs because not only are we about service but we're also women. SOme sorors don't feel the same some do

if you're a fraternity member then you're my brother, hands down. Male, female, whatever. It is so much bigger than that at least to me.

I agree. Can you imagine the impact the orgs could make if they were able to work together? BUT there are a lot of people who claim that they want to see this happen but they are doing a lot of things in the name of 25/52 that are getting them farther and father away from their goal.

[Senusret I]

Virtuous Woman. . .

I couldn't have said it better myself.

But I bet you didn't have to recite the founders backwards with a match between your eyelids, upside down and naked on a frozen lake.

[gamma_girl52]

I'm glad you decided to bring the original topic back, so let me address if I can.

Yes I did ask for opinions and comments, and actually I was anticipating some disagreement. But with having two different viewpoints...you'd be surprised of what comes from it. So I appreciate everyone's comments so far, especially from my female brothers.

Those are good points, and perhaps that is the root of the problem, the division (that's the word right there). And why is is still there if most of us are saying "it's bigger than this"? If I invited you to an event that my chapter was having and other brothers were going to be there, would you show up? Better yet would you be comfortable. That is where we are not seeming to get to in this...even though you have a lot of folks saying "it doesn't matter" the fear and uncertainty is still there.

And another thing. From what I have seen, those that are "in" this family may not necessarily agree with the initial reason why it was formed. Many want to move on from that (the exclusion thing) and focus on what they should have put more of a focus on in the first place, service. When I met some of these brothers (and these were some pre-76 and early 80's made) they were not even focusing on that.

They want to see the AA chapters (most likely all male) learn how to start taking care of business more efficently and not waste time on something that is already in effect. There are women in the frat-fine-so let's get down to some real business...these brothers brought paperwork with them to share with the other younger brothers. Like lifetime membership and how to start an alumni association. That is what needs to be going on. So many have moved on from that, because they are trying to get stronger and grow. Not because of the whole co-ed issue, but because they don't have a voice to get some changes made IF they want them or not.

Can you give me an example of your last statement where you've seen that occur?

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by dardenr

I couldn't have said it better myself.


Well how about some solutions then since we know what your stance is? Or does it not matter either way, or what.

[Virtuous Woman]

And why is is still there if most of us are saying "it's bigger than this"? If I invited you to an event that my chapter was having and other brothers were going to be there, would you show up? Better yet would you be comfortable
Hell yeah I'd go (if I lived anywhere near GA). Why not? As long as I was sure that I was going to be treated with respect and like a brother then I'd be there. I see unity between the two orgs as positive. As a matter of fact, I'm going to be in ATL Aug 8-11, let's hang out.

the fear and uncertainty is still there.

I think that this is the root of much of the "problem". People need to start exposing themselves to differents aspects of the fraternity and the sorority. That's the only way to over come this fear. I think that a lot of people feel "unsafe" and that's why there's division. Based on some of the comments I've read that some of my brothers have posted and some Gamma SIgs have posted, I didn't/wouldn't go to the 25/52 picnic. I just wouldn't feel comfortable and I would really feel like I was going to end up getting into a "fight" ( I mean a VERBAL altercation) with someone for disrespecting me. This "fear" has and will continue to keep me from going to any 25/52 events. But that's just me.

I also think that some people within the fam "fear" people who aren't in it because they feel like they won't understand the way they do things and to a lot of people the fam is a protection from this. If you only surround yourself with people who are like you or see things the way you see it, you don't have to worry about being different.

They want to see the AA chapters (most likely all male) learn how to start taking care of business more efficently and not waste time on something that is already in effect. There are women in the frat-fine-so let's get down to some real business...
That's good, it's time to move on. It would be really nice to see BROTHAS who are about the business of the fraternity.


Can you give me an example of your last statement where you've seen that occur?


Any time one of my brothers says "We need to disassociate ourselves from female APOs" or a Gamma Sig says "My brothers are only MALE APOs" the 25/52 fam takes a step backward. You cannot have family or unity based on division.

[Virtuous Woman]

But I bet you didn't have to recite the founders backwards with a match between your eyelids, upside down and naked on a frozen lake.

No, I didn't. I guess I skated!!!!!:) :)

[Senusret I]

'fraid so. . .but don't worry, I just signed up for Skater Haters Anonymous.

Gamma_Girl, I have no comment at this time. :)


Originally posted by Virtuous Woman


No, I didn't. I guess I skated!!!!!:) :)

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
Virtuous Woman. . .

I couldn't have said it better myself.

But I bet you didn't have to recite the founders backwards with a match between your eyelids, upside down and naked on a frozen lake.

DAMN there goes the peace. the "no-nos" have won.

why you trying to get others to knock you out. you can hardly deal with me.

[Senusret I]

lol. . .

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
lol. . .

oh if you think thats devilish you aint see nothing yet. You know i can get much worse than this, check the other thread.

[Virtuous Woman]

But I bet you didn't have to recite the founders backwards with a match between your eyelids, upside down and naked on a frozen lake.


I bet you didn't have to swim across that frozen lake, holding your match between your eyelids until you saw the four golden stars in the blue sky and then swim back

[gamma_girl52]

Virtuous:

Thanks for responding back. I feel you... Now I think I may see the real issue.

Send me a pm on where you'll be at the weekend, maybe we can meet. I'd love that!

[~Q5~]

Bsoldier ...all i have to say is disgusting. I thought the dirty dirty's were bad but damn could it be even the bears are better than that. Makes the struggle so much more worth it. I wonder if i took em to d'water would they come clean?

[Senusret I]

All I got to say is pass the pizza.

[~Q5~]

i am already about to regurge the internals. I am so glad that things are the way they are. You're silly. I am just so disgusted.


BTW I gotta find a particular color blue for this jacket deal...do you have a clue as to what's the truest to "our" blue?

[Senusret I]

USUALLY, if you ask for Royal Blue, it will be exactly what we need. However, if you are doing it in person, go ahead and make them show you a sample, because royal blue on some coaches jackets looks lighter than royal blue on pullovers, I've seen it. :(

[~Q5~]

ok now what about the gold whats the closest old or just the plain. I am asumming old but i have never seen it up close so let me know.




Originally posted by dardenr
USUALLY, if you ask for Royal Blue, it will be exactly what we need. However, if you are doing it in person, go ahead and make them show you a sample, because royal blue on some coaches jackets looks lighter than royal blue on pullovers, I've seen it. :(

[Senusret I]

You got it, Old Gold. I don't see to many variations of it, and most if not all greek stores have it.

thegreekshop.com has something called "Vegas Gold" but I have yet to find out what that is.


Originally posted by ~Q5~
ok now what about the gold whats the closest old or just the plain. I am asumming old but i have never seen it up close so let me know.

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
You got it, Old Gold. I don't see to many variations of it, and most if not all greek stores have it.

thegreekshop.com has something called "Vegas Gold" but I have yet to find out what that is.




vegas gold...use your imagination, super flashy.

[JayBEE!!]

Originally posted by Virtuous Woman

I have a question: What is the urgency or the necesity of recognizing the 25/52 relationship? D9 orgs (with the exception of Sigma and Zeta) do not recognize each other but people are still OK with this relationship and it is still able to prosper.


Hey Darden, Q5, gamma_girl52, bro_strawter, prettyDrLuv, and notorious4it. I haven't been hear for a while. I've going through my breathe in breathe out stage of that huge weekend. I wanted to see if this question was answered, and then try to give the short run to an understanding.

There is no urgency into recognizing the 25/52 relationship. The necessity was born into this organization and the relationship is just a natural thing. The fact that it still exist despite the coed chapters tells you that the relationship doesn't need to be official. However, where the necessity rest will be harder to see from those whom it doesn't affect. The affect are on those in this family.

The Way it affects Gamma Sigma Sigma:

In 1976, When Alpha Phi Omega created female membership, Gamma Sigma Sigma began to lose ground in the service arena. Having chartered over 160 chapters, they were active at several campuses where there was an Alpha Phi Omega chapter. Between 1952 and 1982, (30 years) they chartered over 140 chapters. 1982 was their Zeta Zeta chapter's birthday. Since 1982 (20 years) only about 13 or 14 chapters have been created. We had established this relationship so strong that some of the chapters of Gamma Sigma SIgma has Alpha Phi Omega in their chapter history as having helped them get started. The Alumni director of Gamma Sigma Sigma told me that they were losing a lot of chapters where there was an coed chapter of Alpha Phi Omega in the 90's. In 1986, Alpha Phi Omega made a rule where if you were not coed you had to be coed if your chapter became inactive for two years. This not only got rid of chapters not in good standing, but it also left chapters of Gamma Sigma Sigma vitually by themselves. And D9 didn't support them they were on their own, like at Dillard they died out.

As a campus entity, we were two organizations that had the support of the other. And on Black campuses, it is D9 and company. Meaning that when D9 did something, nothing else seem to matter. We had our own thing. A family of organizations that got mad respect because they couldn't say we were a club, society or special interest org. We were a legit bonified frat.

The way it affects males in Alpha Phi Omega:

The decision in 1976 didn't stop several brothers in Alpha Phi Omega from being male chapters. And in the black chapters no chapter became coed. Every black coed chapter became coed basically because they had to. Because none of them was going to ever become coed any other way. To proponents of coed chapters, the 1986 ruling was necessary. It created an avenue for chapters to become coed after the all male proponents left the campus. But what happened is as more chapters became coed chapters, fewer males interested in joing this organization. In some places, groups of females are joining with only a couple of males in it. The male attraction was dissappearing. Along with attraction Alpha Phi Omega's Focus on male development. The family, is not only a sisters/brothers thing, it is also a male bonding thing as well. This is where the frat is fraternity in the traditional sence, developed by earlier brothers.

To sum it up, we are holding on to what made these two organizations great

[~Q5~]

well....i guess it should be left as it is ( not recognized by anyone cept' the individuals who believe in it) or let go.

[Senusret I]

Q5. . .I mostly agree with you. . .but Erykah Badu said it best. . .

"Let it go, let it go, let it go, let it go, ooooooo-hhhoooooo!"

Pack light, Q5

[Virtuous Woman]

Gamma Sigma Sigma began to lose ground in the service arena

While your point has some credibility, we have to remember that the issues that our organizations deal with are real issues and as long as the issues persist, there is a need for BOTH organizations (and others). So to say that APO left no room for GSS is not only unsubstantiated but illogical. There is ALWAYS service to be done

The necessity was born into this organization and the relationship is just a natural thing

If this relationship is "natural" then why aren't ALL chapters of GSS and APO stressed to have this relationship "prosper"? Based on the definitions of the word natural, I just don't see how your argument works.

natural
adj.
1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

4. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
5. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
6. Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
7. Faithfully representing nature or life.
8. Expected and accepted: “In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love” (Duff Cooper).
9. Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.
10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.



but it also left chapters of Gamma Sigma Sigma vitually by themselves

I don't want to step on any Gamma Sig's toes but my understanding is that Gamma Sigma Sigma was created to be an organization in its own rite. I'm sure that the ladies of Gamma Sigma Sigma are more than capable of holding their own without the assistance of APO or anyone else.

Every black coed chapter became coed basically because they had to

Alpha Phi Omega went co-ed because it had to not just black co-ed chapters. It happened, let's move on.

, fewer males interested in joing this organization
Can you please post some numbers on this? Or at least quote a source.

To sum it up, we are holding on to what made these two organizations great

This is really a sad statement. Do you REALLY believe that what has made Alpha Phi Omega great is male bonding? I think that brotherhood is a vital part of Alpha Phi Omega but when the dust clears, I want Alpha Phi Omega to be known for its service to others. I'm sorry I think that there is more to life than male bonding and there's definitely more to Alpha Phi Omega than that.

[gamma_girl52]

I do agree with you, Virtuous...Gamma Sig certainly can and always has functioned as a SEPARATE organization. Gamma Sig as a sorority has never come out and said, "It's Alpha Phi Omega's fault!" when referring to chapters being closed...there are different reasons behind each one and it's not like they can't re-open. That's kind of pushing it anyway, to blame one organization for the shrinkage of another. Jaybee, you know I love ya, but come on now.

After getting different reponses from all of you guys (and I thank you for the convo), I think it is best to leave it as it is now...I do not think it's necessary for it to go National. With everything else, this has flaws and until those flaws are recognized and dealt with then nothing is changing. Everyone seems content in their opinions and views, that's fine.

So after this I have no more to add to the topic. Thanks to everybody for responding thus far.

[~Q5~]

Originally posted by dardenr
Q5. . .I mostly agree with you. . .but Erykah Badu said it best. . .

"Let it go, let it go, let it go, let it go, ooooooo-hhhoooooo!"

Pack light, Q5

See even i can be nice on occassion cause you know.......

I'm more incline to see a disappearing act...but hey W/W

[JayBEE!!]

Originally posted by gamma_girl52
"It's Alpha Phi Omega's fault!" when referring to chapters being closed...there are different reasons behind each one and it's not like they can't re-open. That's kind of pushing it anyway, to blame one organization for the shrinkage of another. Jaybee, you know I love ya, but come on now.


I've talked to black and white sisters at different times in my 22 years of existence. I speak no fables. A membership director of Gamma Sigma Sigma from the Baltimore area told me that many of their campuses was losing membership to Alpha Phi Omega.

Let’s be real. This family is being cherished, and backed up by some male members of Alpha Phi Omega and some female members of Gamma Sigma Sigma. If both organizations blanketed all their chapters into being coed they would not try to have a relationship. Do you really think that members who love the coed chapter that they are in, wants a relationship with a sorority? Come on now. There are campuses where the coed chapters of Alpha Phi Omega exist and single gender chapters of Gamma Sigma Sigma exist. They are in separate worlds. Look at University of Florida, and University of Georgia. They know they each org is there. Nobody is recognizing this relationship but proponents of single gender chapters in Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma.

Is a separation there? I would say yes. Is it a problem? That is at the individual level. You have to realize there are a lot of male brothers that still haven’t been around a female APO. So they snap, when one comes around uninvited. That might change over time. Then it may not. Some don’t even say anything, they just gives you looks. Others have dealt with it before. So they try to be more cordial. Of course when they come to a national conference or convention everybody is cordial. Also, there are individuals in Alpha Phi Omega who would like nothing more than to see the death of Ay-Phi-Que. And they wouldn’t support anything that is in support of them.

There are a lot of people who love the single gender aspect of the 25/52 family. It actually is the life-force of the family itself. In my opinion, a blow up in coed arena lessens arenas where there can be single gender activities. In my opinion if all the chapters in Alpha Phi Omega where coed, then the same thing would happen as it did on Dillard’s campus:

The chapter had been a low-key chapter. The family was being hyped and the sisters were so excited that the chapter drew attention to itself with having 39 on their spring line. I knew they were in trouble when I heard it. I tried to promote an activity on their campus. The other counseled organizations pick that chapter apart. They never had a chance to learn what they were in. And they never had strong relationship with the coed chapter of Alpha Phi Omega who is still on that campus today. Yet those two chapters use to have a history together.

See very few people in our organizations pledge anything else back in the day. You got every thing you need in the 25/52 family. It was just that tight. We didn’t have to go to a
Pan-held Party, we had own thing. Matter of fact we use to be invited and won some step competitions sponsored by the Pan.

And lets not think that single gender entities are not about service. If any all male chapter don’t think about service, that’s sad. When I was in college we had dorm cloth drive contest, day care Halloween parties, and even a Melting Pot Festival for foreign students. I think you can talk about other things and do service too.

[JayBEE!!]

Originally posted by Virtuous Woman




(Your argument is design to disagree. You have to understand what I;m saying. I said. Gamma Sigma Sigma began to lose ground in the service arena. This is the service sector of organizations on campus. They lost many chapters. It is the fallout of making largest service organization a coed organization. Especially when the two organizations had a relationship going. Some chapters even had Alpha Phi Omega in their history as helping them get started. If you can’t see that that is logic behind that you don’t want to see it. Together we were two fraternal organizations against many. Service was being done but you have to also recognize that Gamma Sigma Sigma was not on any council. I think their chances would have been better if they were on a council when Alpha Phi Omega established the female membership. But see, our organizations were hand-in-hand sort or speak while on the same campus. Our organizations were helping legitimize the other as being fraternal organizations because we were sister and brother organizations. Without each other our appearance outside the counciled organizations are that of a club or society. This causes people to go through your chapters instead of staying in them. Remember every greek letter organization on campus is doing service these days.)


If this relationship is "natural" then why aren't ALL chapters of GSS and APO stressed to have this relationship "prosper"?

(The place where it is a natural thing is simple, that’s the way it happened naturally. Women and men got together for a common goal, like they do within Alpha Phi Omega. There was a time where the relationship was just that close. We had our Alpha Phi Omega pledges saying big sister to other Gamma Sigs. Natural in that it is a brother organization to a sister group. If you can’t see the nature in that, then we are talking on the wrong level.)

I'm sure that the ladies of Gamma Sigma Sigma are more than capable of holding their own without the assistance of APO or anyone else.

(I see you like to argue. Everybody can use help every now and then, and we always love having Gamma Sigma Sigma recruite for us. You see, on a black campus it is always good to have another organization that has your back. Because the D9 is always saying something negative about your existence. "They are not that, they are not this" Yadda Yadda. Two voices in the service sector always lifts interest in service organizations.)


( fewer males interested in joing this organization.)

Can you please post some numbers on this? Or at least quote a source.

(Sure, more predominately female chapters are being created. TennState 18 out of 33 and, Lagrange 14 out of 16, Indiana State University’s had 113 members 98 were female. Emory had 75 members 57 were female. And other predominately female chapters say that they have a hard time attracting males. What? I know what I’m talking about.)

Do you REALLY believe that what has made Alpha Phi Omega great is male bonding?

(No, but that was apart of it. But it also wasn’t just service either. If I had to place on one item I would say it was the association with the Boy Scouts of America. But that’s just me. However I would also include that standard of manhood that withstood the test of time. I’m well aware that people join Alpha Phi Omega for different reasons. I will tell you now it wasn’t as simple as just service. Alpha Phi Alpha does service. Kappa Alpha Psi does Service. Even Kappa Kappa Psi does service.)

I think that brotherhood is a vital part of Alpha Phi Omega but when the dust clears, I want Alpha Phi Omega to be known for its service to others. I'm sorry I think that there is more to life than male bonding and there's definitely more to Alpha Phi Omega than that.

(See there that “I want” again. “I Want” is what changed this organization from what it was to what it is today. People got in this organization and change it because they said “I Want” instead of saying “It has”. I think manhood is a vital part of Alpha Phi Omega. I think that you should never re-write or white-out your history, you should only add to it. I really do agree with you when you say that they is more to Alpha Phi Omega than male bonding. But you know it’s in there. And there is more to Alpha Phi Omega than service. But you know it’s in there.)

[Virtuous Woman]

Jaybee,
I don't see how this post was necessary. If you'd like to share any further comments or "enlightenment" with me, please e-mail me.

The QUEEN has spoken.

[~Q5~]

I think we all see why this probably got deleted.

[JayBEE!!]

Originally posted by Virtuous Woman
Jaybee,
I don't see how this post was necessary. If you'd like to share any further comments or "enlightenment" with me, please e-mail me.

The QUEEN has spoken.

I just answered your post to me Viturtous Woman. Why do you have to see my post as being necessary? Don't you think that a post should be as the author sees it necessary.