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Obi_Wan_kenobi
06-03-2002, 11:44 PM
I wsa wondering if someone out there coudl help me. For the past four years I have been workign in NYC as a Stockkbroker, however, as a result of 9/11 my firm decded to relocate to Rhode Island. That was not an option for me so I have decided to finish my degree so that I may matriculate to Law School. My question is this, I have always wanted to become a member of Omega Psi Phi. However should I just wait and go graduate chapter, or should I try undergrad. If I were to go grad chapter woudl I be shown the sam amount of love that a memeber who went undergrad would be shown, or woudl I just be considerd to be paper. Please any advice woudl be gratefully appreciated. Thank you.?

DoggyStyle82
06-04-2002, 06:42 PM
You won't have to worry about that in NY.

Obi_Wan_kenobi
06-04-2002, 06:49 PM
Yes but the school I will be retruning to is in the south.

DoggyStyle82
06-05-2002, 08:47 PM
It won't be a problem in that case either. Forget the rumors.

BearyCuteAPhi
06-05-2002, 08:50 PM
Well good luck in whatever you decide to do!!!!! ;)

Ronnie :D

DoggyStyle82
06-06-2002, 06:38 PM
You need to take the opportunity when it presents itself. Nothing is a given. Whether you pledge grad or undergrad, in Omega, you earn your respect by being a good brother and living up to her precepts. The real always supercedes the superficial.

Obi_Wan_kenobi
06-07-2002, 03:27 PM
Thanks for the advice. I must also add that I am 30. Will that weigh negatively against me in undergrad? I mean I just would love an opportunity to make line, will my age old me back?

DoggyStyle82
06-09-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Obi_Wan_kenobi
Thanks for the advice. I must also add that I am 30. Will that weigh negatively against me in undergrad? I mean I just would love an opportunity to make line, will my age old me back?

No, it happens more frequently than one might think. I know of at least 3 brothers who have pledged undergrad past age 28.

PHAtraveller
06-09-2002, 10:39 PM
Doggystyle82,

I am trying to figure out where you stand on the issues. I read some of your posts and you seem to be level headed and others you seem to advocate the very things that your fraternity "leadership" hate.

I am entering through grad chap. I researched the two frats that I wanted to join and made a decision. I am new to reading the boards, but "Where has the black greek respectability and honor gone?" The post by one of masonic brothers made me rethink some of my rationale concerning these issues.

I had a discussion with some kappas,omegas,deltas at work. I asked them if what they did was so "right", as in their process, why not disclose all the details in writing to the heads of their frats for consideration as an alternate process. All you get is, "uuhhh..cool out, man!"

If a 30 year old man, that is in Law School, feels he needs to get respect by allowing grown men to beat and demean him, then truly something is wrong, mentally. I wonder what the Bar Association would think of that because he is a participant, and a hazer, in the years to come if he doesn't wise up.

BGLOs are losing quality leaders in the community over childish rants that I have read on this and other forums. Look at what Dick Gregory said.

Please Respond all!!! ( I love a debate)

DoggyStyle82
06-10-2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by PHAtraveller
Doggystyle82,

I am trying to figure out where you stand on the issues. I read some of your posts and you seem to be level headed and others you seem to advocate the very things that your fraternity "leadership" hate.

I am entering through grad chap. I researched the two frats that I wanted to join and made a decision. I am new to reading the boards, but "Where has the black greek respectability and honor gone?" The post by one of masonic brothers made me rethink some of my rationale concerning these issues.

I had a discussion with some kappas,omegas,deltas at work. I asked them if what they did was so "right", as in their process, why not disclose all the details in writing to the heads of their frats for consideration as an alternate process. All you get is, "uuhhh..cool out, man!"

If a 30 year old man, that is in Law School, feels he needs to get respect by allowing grown men to beat and demean him, then truly something is wrong, mentally. I wonder what the Bar Association would think of that because he is a participant, and a hazer, in the years to come if he doesn't wise up.

BGLOs are losing quality leaders in the community over childish rants that I have read on this and other forums. Look at what Dick Gregory said.

Please Respond all!!! ( I love a debate)


I cannot make you understand. If you haven't seen it, lived it, or loved it, I cannot GIVE you an understanding. I pledged old school. Long before intake which is what you have seen as an outsider. I don't delineate between my brothers, Grad or Undergrad, as long as you measure up to and live up to Omega's principles.

I do respect those more who have chosen the undergrad path when they have had the opportunity. That does not mean that I DISRESPECT those that didn't.

If you are entering your chosen org through a grad chapter more power to you, but you are under a few misconceptions. Who told you that you needed to be beaten, disrespected, or humiliated to get respect? Who told you that that was the undergrad process. What "man" would choose such a path. What fool would choose such an org that condones foolishness?

My friend, you are confusing my belief in a tried and true pledge process with something from a rumor mill. Don't ever confuse something that I live daily with something that you "heard" may be true in some (not all or most) chapters. Do you really think Greeks that you work with are gonna tell you everything? Do you divulge Masonic practices with your co-workers. Both of my grandfathers and 8 of my uncles are Masons and I don't know one thing about it beneath the surface.

As far as the law student, let me tell you this. I know plenty of cops, sheriffs, lawyers, judges, and even a Chief Justice of a State Supreme Court who have chosen to pledge and pledge others (not haze, demean, or injure others)

Dick Gregory? Who the hell leads their life by what he says? I still think that you will find Black Greeks in more than 50% of leadership positions on most campus'. I'll ass the 30 yr old Alpha man that is the Mayor of Detroit if he "pledged" or maybe the 40 yr old DeKalb County Commisioner and Kappa Man if he pledged or pledged others (I know personally that he did) or the 35 yr old Omega Man that is the Mayor of Atlantic City if he pledged or pledged others (I know personally that he did). Are these men not leaders? Did they demean themselves and others to join or help others join their illustrious brotherhoods?

Mr. Traveller, the Masons did not let you choose your process and a Fraternity won't either. Its o.k. Pledging doesn't take a strong heart, but rather a strong mind. You are letting rumors and innuendo impede your actions. Good luck, whatever your course.

PHAtraveller
06-10-2002, 08:49 PM
Doggystyle82,

Truthfully, we all know what pledging entails TODAY. To assume otherwise, would be foolish. I am not reading from "what I heard!", but from first hand experience and knowledge. I went to a college where the greek bros, a lot of them, came into masonry before and some after pledging. Let's not be naive. I have been in a fraternal brotherhood for years also, you learn of others process and pitfalls, it is a common bond that alot of brothers have.

Do you agree with pledging as it is TODAY?

You are right I had no choice over my process into masonry, but I KNOW my process didn't demean me or my CTs. GPAs remained tight! That can not be said for pledging. It was also the official way to come into Prince Hall masonry. As intake is for BGLOs, but I guess lawsuits are the best way to advertise our BGLOs

You say the names of those prominent individuals as if pledging needs to be defended, which it does. They, no matter how high they sit, are then breaking the oaths that so many "say" they hold sacred. You can't have it two ways. I am referring to those individuals that continue pledging as we know it.

Look at your quote about not worrying about that in NY. He won't have to worry about going through intake, and being called a skater, cat, etc.... right? Forgive me if I misinterpet.

CDM
P.S.
I am just presenting Conversation...not conflict.

the411
06-10-2002, 09:12 PM
Geez, Doggy! I love me sum YOU! Your response was extremely intelligent, eloquent, and thorough! What an Omega Man you are!

Okay, let me stop before my post gets deleted! ;)

I just have one thing to add...

PHAtraveller:
As a member of both Delta Sigma Theta and P.H.O.E.S. I have to state the obvious--that pledging is not solely characteristic of black greek frats and sororities. It even happens in marching bands, for goodness sake. (But of course, you never really hear about that because the media is always on OUR backs!)! And believe ME, becoming a PRINCE HALL Mason/Star is no easy feat. If I were to believe all I've heard/seen, I'd have to pose the same questions to you about the Masonry that you posed to DoggyStyle82...

Just an observation!

And I'm Out! :D

PHAtraveller
06-10-2002, 09:45 PM
the411 (my sister in light),

True about the process to becoming a mason, but we have not killed or maimed any individuals during our process. Our Grand Lodges have not put forward edicts that say basically, "Do this sh%t like this and only like this" and have PHA borthers and sisters disregard the constitution. For that fact, individuals that go through the masonic ALMOST always have more respect for Masonry.

DoggyStyle82
06-10-2002, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by PHAtraveller
the411 (my sister in light),

True about the process to becoming a mason, but we have not killed or maimed any individuals during our process. Our Grand Lodges have not put forward edicts that say basically, "Do this sh%t like this and only like this" and have PHA borthers and sisters disregard the constitution. For that fact, individuals that go through the masonic ALMOST always have more respect for Masonry.

Again with the 1%. I prefer to be defined by the 99%, not the 1%. So stop with the maimed and killed stuff. If that were the inevitable result of being a Black Greek, there would be none.

Another fallacious argument is that our respective orgs did away with pledging as a result of numerous hazing injuries. FALSE!!! They did so because the state laws changed with respect to our pledging traditions as a result of white greeks dying of alcohol overdoses. Our orgs value the traditional pledge process. Its lawsuits that they fear due to laws as they are currently structured.

I know plenty of Masons that have been hazed. Masonry is protected from the type of lawsuits that Fraternities are subject to or else what you do could be dragged into court also.

PHAtraveller
06-11-2002, 01:37 AM
doggystyle82,

but truthfully, are you telling me that "making someone dress alike and shave their heads" lead to the lasuits that presently threaten BGLOs? No, its the numerous hazing activities that have lead to them.

1% is a very large number. If 1% of individuals were hurt during the pledge process in a class of say 1000, thats 10 people. Isn't that too many?

Were some Masons hazed?, yes. Was I hazed?, you could put it that way. That doesn't mean it was right nor that I was "made" correctly. One thing that I never heard of, or will, is a "paper" mason or OES. Why is that? Because it not what you do to get in the ORg but what you do after that. BGLO are spending too much time about how you get in rather than "What have you done for me lately"

I was wondering where all the brothers that pledged hard are? Are all financial? I want to know where I can find a chapter, in the 99%, that are legit! I have yet to find one.

I would love to talk in private. Hit me at: phatraveller@excite.com

Obi_Wan_kenobi
06-11-2002, 12:22 PM
Phat if the process bothers you, why not just walk away. I mean I am sure that you would not want to jeapordize your budding lgeal career correct? This may sound obtuse, but even though I am not a member, I am thinking that Omega Psi Phi would still continue to join if for some strange reason u decide not to join. I may not be understanding your position properly.. But i think that you are questionoing the process? AM I correct? What do you think about people like myself who dont really "care" about the process? I wont explain that any further in this post but if you want to talk email me at hueyp_1967@hotmail.com. Doggystyle thank you for your words of encouragement.

the411
06-11-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by PHAtraveller
doggystyle82,

but truthfully, are you telling me that "making someone dress alike and shave their heads" lead to the lasuits that presently threaten BGLOs? No, its the numerous hazing activities that have lead to them.

1% is a very large number. If 1% of individuals were hurt during the pledge process in a class of say 1000, thats 10 people. Isn't that too many?

Were some Masons hazed?, yes. Was I hazed?, you could put it that way. That doesn't mean it was right nor that I was "made" correctly. One thing that I never heard of, or will, is a "paper" mason or OES. Why is that? Because it not what you do to get in the org but what you do after that. BGLO are spending too much time about how you get in rather than "What have you done for me lately"

I was wondering where all the brothers that pledged hard are? Are all financial? I want to know where I can find a chapter, in the 99%, that are legit! I have yet to find one.

But that's just the point I'm making. I have HEARD of some pretty intense, physical hazing incidents taking place in Prince Hall. Just because they didn't make the news doesn't mean they DIDN'T happen. And, more importantly, just because I've HEARD about them, doesn't mean they DID happen. How can you argue that 1% is very large number when MOST of that 1% is based on hearsay and fabrications that don't even hold up in court. You're absolutely right about there being some uncalled-for incidents that reflect negatively on the system. But, isn't that the case in virtually EVERY SITUATION/AREA of life?

There is always a tiny percent! Two years ago, I took a medication that caused me severe itching (with no rash, bumps, redness or anything). I researched and net-surfed this condition for WEEKS before I was able to pinpoint it to the medication. In the very fine print (had to a be in 2-pt font), on the bottle, I read that 3% of the MILLIONS of people who've taken this medication "have experienced this severe itching." Who knew I'd be one of that 3%?!?!?! I've been allergic to anything other than strawberries!!! But, I'm not on a national campaign to ban this medication; instead, I've realized that sometimes things go wrong. Look at plane crashes and how many lives have been lost as a result of engine failure or something else going wrong that could/should have been avoided. Yet, we still get on planes BY CHOICE every day because we trust that the mechanics and pilots will follow the right procedures and that nothing will go wrong. Look at the number of athletes who've died during training/practice; it's never until someone dies that anyone ever questions whether the athletes are being pushed too hard. But, even in the face of such incidents, we still support our favorite teams/players in their pursuit of victory. We think it's necessary/justified for the team to train hard and practice hard so that they can get the win. When we hear of a player dying, we simply shake our heads, utter a non-heart-felt "That's sad," and soon forget about the whole thing! We don't start a campaign to ban the rigorous training activities (sometimes in 100+ degree weather) of the sports leagues! We might temporarily turn our noses up at the coach, but as soon as a report comes out proving that a particular athlete died because of an unknown/undetected heart condition, we breathe a sigh of relief and are "all good" with the coach again! So why is it that the world holds the entire NPHC accountible for those few, sad incidents that have taken place?

Doggy is right about the law issue. Do you really think anti-hazing policies are in place to protect prospective members!?!?!? NO! If we are to have active chapters that bring in new members, we have to adhere to STATE LAW--we just have to! And, like Doggy also said, these anti-hazing laws are ALL--I repeat, ALL the direct result of alcohol-realted hazing incidents occuring within traditionally white fraternities and sororities, stemming way back to the late 1800s when a pledge died after being forced to swallow an oil-soaked fish whole... and in the early 1900s when a young man stepped forward to testify that his "big brothers" gave him some kind of shock-treatment when he failed to answer certain questions to their satisfaction. All this was back when the black greek family was comprised of only A Phi A, AKA, Nupe and Omega. Our pledge processes were ceremonial/ritualistic parts of our black collegiate history, but as white fraternities got more and more negative attention, we (by default) were put in the spotlight. And that's mostly because some bystander said, "Well look at what those greeks over there are doing!" (It's that "If I go down, I'm taking you with me" syndrome) Also, if you'll notice, the really ridiculous, deadly incidents that have occured within the NPHC orgs didn't really happen until after these laws were in place and the public pagentry of pledging was forced to trickle underground. If we were back above ground, I doubt you'd ever hear of another horrible hazing incident in our orgs.

Also, if you'll notice, many of the people who take a firm stand against pledging are people who succumb to the rumors, fear the unknown, or tried and didn't make it. Now, before you attack me, let me say this: I'm not justifying life-threatening hazing by NO MEANS! But, I always wonder why people pursue membership yet scream hazing when something isn't easy or desirable for them. I know some girls who dropped line because they had to sleep on the floor during a retreat. Mind you-- there were 8 sorors and 5 of them, but only 3 full-size beds. Two sorors had to sleep on the sofas. But, even though sleeping bags were provided, they didn't understand why sorors got the beds and they didn't. Are you kidding me? I mean, these were girls who didn't have a clue what humility means and they assumed that it was hazing! Hell, it wasn't even pledging, if you ask me--there simply weren't enough beds for everyone! Would you call it HAZING/PLEDGING that they had to sleep on the floor?!?!? Well, I can assure you that THEY concluded that they were being hazed :eek: and made a point to drop line and start speading that crap (minus the true, specific detail, of course) all over campus. By both law and tradition, they weren't hazed at all and no policies were violated. However, because of their rumors, a cloud hung over the chapter and the big shots were watching the chapter under a microscope from then on. The sad reality is that, these days, people are expecting cake walks into greekdom, expecting the process to be as easy as "joining the Boys and Girls Club of America" (as Doggy would say)! From what I've HEARD. SEEN, and EXPERIECNED, the Prince Hall process doesn't all differ that much, and is oftentimes much more difficult. However, because of the privacy that we get in the Prince Hall family (i.e. not being in the spotlight on college campuses), you just don't hear about hazing incidents in these orgs--but they do happen! It's not about the level of respect Masosn/Stars get or have--we just aren't being watched under a microscope like collegiate greeks are! It's like that racial profiling salesmen who's so busy watching the black folks in department stores, that they miss the middle-aged white women stealing a pair of earrings! of course it's gonna look like black folks steal if that who you're always watching. The greek system is no different--folks are so busy in our grills, watching our every moves that other groups are getting by with the same or worse actions. I sincerely wish the black greek system could overcome all this "social profiling!"

And, in response to your question/statement:

I was wondering where all the brothers that pledged hard are? Are all financial? I want to know where I can find a chapter, in the 99%, that are legit! I have yet to find one.[/QUOTE]

Didn't you know? A "very large number" of 'em are Masons! ;)

And I'm Out! :D

DoggyStyle82
06-11-2002, 08:25 PM
Thank you 411 for your very lucid and extremely valid comments. Your analogies are on point.

I will no longer address this issue because for those of us in the know, this is a dead horse that's been beaten like Mike Tyson.

If you scared, say you're scared. Know one forces you to knock on that door. Your 33 degrees won't be handed to you, so why look to a frat for a handout

PHAtraveller
06-12-2002, 12:17 AM
Doggystyle82,

I know you said this thread is dead so I will be brief. As i said before, I have had first hand experience (two generation of a certain frat, ;), three if you count my brother.

Scared to pledge? Not quite. Want my membership handed to me? Wrong also. I just want a process that doesn't invovle the things I HAVE SEEN.

I guess this is why it is so hard to talk about the process, present members have a mentality that just doen't lead to compromise, IN MY OPINION.


Sister 411,
Both of you say" many want a cake walk into greekdom", but if that is what the elected leaders say for membership why not stop the division? I know I probaly won't get a reply but .....

GREAT DEBATE TO ALL!

Bro CDM, 32 degree
MWPHGL of IL

p.s.
I used my mind and civility more than physical attributes to achieve those degrees.

DoggyStyle82
06-12-2002, 09:15 PM
Your family members have never used their intellect since becoming members?

Pledging is not physical, its mental.

You have 3 family members that are already initiates. Your answers and your arguments lay with them.