Interesting article

[freethinker]

Someone's thoughts on the Old South...

The Stouthouse (http://stouthouse.org/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=81&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0).

[KABillyMac]

Nice column by a little pansy ass liberal that attempts to sound educated by throwing around a few two dollar words, only to screw up the whole thing by ending the column something a la Larry Flynt.

To the author of this article: Boy, what you need to do is get the hell out of that 8 by 8 concrete wall dorm room and get some kind of dose of reality other than the internet and your "Magic" trading cards. If you think for a minute that we as southerners dont know what happened in the civil war and who won, then your sorry ass is sorely mistaken So you stay in your little dark, sad, depressing world, and I will stay in mine.

[Lil_G]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
Nice column by a little pansy ass liberal that attempts to sound educated by throwing around a few two dollar words, only to screw up the whole thing by ending the column something a la Larry Flynt.

To the author of this article: Boy, what you need to do is get the hell out of that 8 by 8 concrete wall dorm room and get some kind of dose of reality other than the internet and your "Magic" trading cards. If you think for a minute that we as southerners dont know what happened in the civil war and who won, then your sorry ass is sorely mistaken So you stay in your little dark, sad, depressing world, and I will stay in mine.

no kidding, what kind of a loser spends his time juxtaposing real life through action figures...

here's my thoughts on this guy: overweight male, dateless wonder, has all the star treks and star wars on tape and idolizes the obese 'comic-book guy' on the simpsons.

oh yeah can't forget his great skill of ambidextrous in his hands.

[West Texas KA]

Ya this article really pisses me off. He thinks we are uneducated. Well if he thinks that the values of the south are about the "wanton rape of black women" then he is totally ignorant of the truth. People that think they are so smart like that piss me off because they are usually the most stupid people.
"For God and the Ladies"

Kappa Alpha Order

P.S. Can you respond to that because I would be really intersted to see what someone like Russel Brown or Dick Wilson would have to say to him:D

[freethinker]

Read the column again---it's made fairly clear that I grew up in the South. To tell the truth, I'm pretty far politically from being a "pansy-ass liberal," even if I actually *do* have the Star Wars movies on VHS, though the action figures on The Stouthouse (http://www.stouthouse.org/nuke) aren't mine.

Of course, neither is the lovely young lady who figures so prominently on its pages, but I suppose we all can't have a dick-oriented life like Lil_G up there.

West Texas KA, you give me hope, however. For a while, I thought that honest intellectual debate from frat guys was out of the question.

I used to be all about "Southern rights," and how the flag stood for heritage, not hate.

Then, I attended the rededication of my local Confederate veterans' memorial (in Statesboro, GA if any of you are interested), and my views changed.

I saw someone wearing a t-shirt with a picture of the U.S. Capitol flying the stars and bars, captioned "You have your dream and I have mine."

That's really what the "Old South" is about now, isn't it? An attempt at social rebellion after a failed attempt at governmental rebellion. Hell, I just grew my hair long for a while to piss people off.

I'll clarify. Let's say that I fervently, truly believe that Nazi Germany stood not for the annihilation of the Jewish people and world subjugation, but just for a strong Germany. As such, I decide to put a large swastika on a flag pole outside of my house.

My house'll probably get burned down. Why? Because no matter what I or my group of friends believes, the general societal convention surrounding swastikas is one of strictly bad, very bad things.

The same thing applies for wearing Confederate uniforms in public, unless you're doing a legit historical service by reenacting. To the vast majority of Americans, Confederate regalia stands for slavery and racial discrimination, not any kind of "Southern gentleman"-esque values.

If my father opens a door for a lady, telling her "Aftuh you, ma'am," in his Southern drawl, he's being a Southern gentleman. If he wears a Confederate uniform (not that he would, just an example here), he'll be targeted as a cracker-ass racist by the average person.

As such, why would anyone with an ounce of good sense dress in such a manner, unless they want to either distress others and/or look bad themselves? And people wonder when "those damned Yankees" stereotype Southerners as morons...

[KABillyMac]

Freethinker, you are too narrow minded to look outside the common idiotic views of Confederate regailia. No argument here that to people like you, it stands for hate. Just because you are born in the South doesnt make you an expert on the general feeling of all Southerners, this statement is directed toward your comment that at one time you understood that the "stars and bars" stood for heritage, and not hate.

Moreso, you dont understand the history and feeling of Old South. Old South is a formal that was spawned by the men of the Order in celebration of the post war feeling of the "New South" in an attempt to preserve the honor and heritage which was the "Old South". Imagine if you will the time period that Old South blossomed. It came to be right around the time that "Gone With the Wind" was released. This movie sparked the young men of the South to have a celebration honoring the feeling of the Lost Cause and the true Southern Gentleman. Confederate regailia and hoop dresses are just symbols of that time period. Often they are confused with pure hate, but this is not so. They themselves serve as regalia for a sort of travel back in time.

Ive never given my view on the War here on this board, but by hell, Im going to now.

The beautiful world of grace and honor, wich was the Old South, came to be destroyed by a brutal war, an unavoidabble war with the materialistic North. The War came as a diffrence of opinion between the two sections in regard to the limitations of the federal government. It arose as a contest between the ideas of cetralization and states rights. When the South seceeded, it vindicated the Constitution, which had guaranteed the right of secession. But also the Civil War came as an attempt by unprincipled Northern men, spurred on by ambition and greed, to subjugate and bring havoc on the South. No need for a argument concerning the Civil War here was needed, but for the sake of the argument as a whole, I wanted my opinion stated.

Its chivalry, grace, and honor man. Not hate, rape, and destruction. Its a celebration of who we were, never forgetting who we are now. You think we are all these back woods hillbillies that think that if the South would have won we would have had it made. This just isnt so.

When you begin to turn you back on who you are and where you come from, your nothing but a petty, vain, uneducated, and narrow minded.

You wanted your educated comment, there you go. Now go crawl back under your keyboard and draw more sterotypical conclusions about sorority women, since that seems to be the subject of your next article.

[freethinker]

Time's a bit short, so I'll leave a longer reply tomorrow, but I have to point out one fact:

"Gone with the Wind" was a movie.

[KABillyMac]

You continue to miss the point

[The Icon]

I don't see what the argument is. Opinions on the American Greek system aside, the old South was a poverty stricken, poor region that was supported on slavery. Not just black slaves either. I'm talking white indentured servants as well. Why in God's name celebrate that? Because some movie or tired cliche about the pre-Civil War south painted a rosey picture?

If you are a Greek, that implies thaat you attended a university or college. Any history class will tell you these same things.

[KABillyMac]

Oh and the inner city north wasnt poverty stricken? Besides the fact that your last sentance made absolutely no damn sense, and basically neither did your entire post, I think it has no relevance here. If we wanted to celebrate the poverty of any region we would run around in high waters and rope belts you moron.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
Oh and the inner city north wasnt poverty stricken? Besides the fact that your last sentance made absolutely no damn sense, and basically neither did your entire post, I think it has no relevance here. If we wanted to celebrate the poverty of any region we would run around in high waters and rope belts you moron.

What didn't make sense? These really was nothing "glorious" about the old south. Period. And no one goes around celebrating the inner city northern states of the time period either. Tell me who does that, please. My last sentence made perfect sense. Greeks are a product of being in an institute of higher learning, therefore, history classes, at some point, had to be taken. If one pays attention in history class, all of this is made clear. There's nothing liberal or one sided about it.

Tell you what. I really am interested in what morals and ideals the "Old South" stood for. Better yet, tell me some that were actually practiced. After all, it's easy to say that one has strong morals and wonderful ideal, but practicing them is something else entirely. Because I have yet to see any historical document that says that the "Old South" was anything but a corrupt, racist dying system that, in the long term, could not sustain itself even if it had managed to succesfuly form an independent nation.

[KABillyMac]

That is a one sided view on the South. Gentility, chivialry, honor, and courtesy. There are some traits to be celebrated.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
That is a one sided view on the South. Gentility, chivialry, honor, and courtesy. There are some traits to be celebrated.

At this point you're talking yourself in circles. I said site me examples. Giving a list of tired, meaningless words hardly qualifies.

You're parroting everything your frat manual says that KA stands for. Again, AS I SAID BEFORE, I want concrete examples.

[KABillyMac]

If anyone is talking themselves in circles here it is you. How in the hell do you expect to argue a point such as your making without concrete examples yourself? Do you think that I know every act of chivalry that has ever been commtted in the South? Can I look facts like that up in some sort of book like " Every Act of Gentility and Chivalry Committed in the South From The Dawn of Time till Now" Your argument is the only one here that is one sided. I freely admit that not every act commited by every man in the South was what could be considered "chivalrous" but you on the other hand dont seem to view it that way. You view the South as a poverty stricken cesspool with absolutely nothing to offer its future generations. If the South was so damn poverty stricken then why in the hell did the north fight so friggin hard to keep it? Trust me, it wasnt for the patriotism of the union.

[freethinker]

Icon, here's a "concrete example" for you (http://www.templeofdemocracy.com/LeeWhipping.htm), taken from a post-Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression) interview with a slave:

WESLEY NORRIS Interviewed, 1866(?) b. Virginia Enslaved: Virginia

It has frequently been represented by the friends and admirers of Robert E. Lee, late an officer in the rebel army, that, although a slaveholder, his treatment of his chattels was invariably kind and humane. The subjoined statement, taken from the lips of one of his former slaves, indicates the real character of the man:

"My name is Wesley Norris; I was born a slave on the plantation of George Parke Custis; after the death of Mr. Custis, Gen. Lee, who had been made executor of the estate, assumed control of the slaves, in number about seventy; it was the general impression among the slaves of Mr. Custis that on his death they should be forever free; in fact this statement had been made to them by Mr. C. years before; at his death we were informed by Gen. Lee that by the conditions of the will we must remain slaves for five years; I remained with Gen. Lee for about seventeen months, when my sister Mary, a cousin of ours, and I determined to run away, which we did in the year 1859; we had already reached Westminster, in Maryland, on our way to the North, when we were apprehended and thrown into prison, and Gen. Lee notified of our arrest; we remained in prison fifteen days, when we were sent back to Arlington; we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free; he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where, in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable, was called in, who gave us the number of lashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to 'lay it on well,' an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done. After this my cousin and myself were sent to Hanover.

Granted, the perspective may be a little skewed, seeing as Mr. Norris was presumably interviewed by a Northerner in 1866, immediately after the war---there may have been some political leanings towards making Gen. Lee look bad. Nonetheless, it's something to think about, and a "concrete example."

Or, take this press release, from KA's own Web site (http://www.ka-order.org/Pi%20Chapter%20Closing.htm):

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 18, 2002
Contact: Ashley Worboys
(540) 463-1865

Kappa Alpha Order Closes University of Tennessee's Pi Chapter

Lexington, Va. - Officials of Kappa Alpha Order announced today the Pi chapter located at the University of Tennessee has been closed for a period of two years. The decision was reached after an investigation into the chapter last month revealed some members violated University and Fraternity policy.

"These are serious issues that need disciplinary attention," said Larry Wiese, executive director of Kappa Alpha Order's National Headquarters. "We needed to put an end to the negative behavior. Through continued discussions with Pi chapter alumni and members of Kappa Alpha Order's national staff, we determined closing the chapter was the best course of action."

Kappa Alpha officials first discovered the possibility of fraternity violations in February. A local alumni's report followed along with a preliminary investigation. The report described activities involving alcohol and a strip dancer inside the fraternity house. KA's national organization suspended the local chapter immediately and notified University officials.

Wiese said no final decision has been made on what will happen to the chapter's house but the national office has been working with the University and local alumni on that matter.

"The chapter will be reinstated after the cooling off period," said Wiese. "We will evaluate that possibility in two years."

Kappa Alpha Order was founded in 1865 in Lexington, Va. and is a
national men's collegiate fraternity with 127 chapters from Princeton, New Jersey to Seattle, Washington. Kappa Alpha Order boasts 5,000 undergraduates and 100,000 living alumni members.

What the press release doesn't mention, however, are gambling, cock fighting (with birds, I presume), weekly visits by strippers, and how brothers recuited local homeless men for impromptu "Fight Club" boxing shows.

To quote Wired: "The bums were recruited, liquored up, given large boxing gloves and then, as one member said, 'we let them go to town.'"

I guess slaves weren't available.

One member of the chapter spoke up to the UTK Daily Beacon (http://dailybeacon.utk.edu/article.php/5334) about the gambling and cock fights in the basement (okay, maybe it wasn't chickens): "It wasn't that big of a deal with nationals. They let us go with that," [UTK KA Chapter President Patrick] Diener said.

I'll argue however, that the national office did the right thing by kicking the chapter. Funny how that last paragraph mentions cities that are assuredly "Yankee" strongholds.

Speaking of slavery and old times there best left forgotten, how about the five-year suspension of the University of North Texas chapter (http://stumedia.tsp.utexas.edu/webarchive/02-05-01/2001020501_s02_North.html)?

Seems that "approximately 35 Kappa Alpha members shouted racial slurs at African-American football recruits who were touring the student union," according to the Daily Texan.

Get this---not only were they wearing their letters, they were waving a Confederate flag at the time (presumably one of the battle variety).

To quote "The Battalion," (http://www.thebatt.com/archives/01a/2-15/oped3.shtml) "The accusation of racism is the fourth disciplinary violation Kalpha Alpha has faced at UNT. In 1990, Kalpha Alpha was placed on a two-year probation for campus alcohol violations. In Nov. 1996, a Kappa Alpha pledge book was found containing racist comments made by fraternity members. In 1998, the fraternity was placed on a two-year probation for allegations of hazing and alcohol abuse. The list of violations this fraternity has committed is ridiculously long."

Just down the street at Southwestern Texas, KA was suspended (http://www.reporternews.com/2001/texas/suspend0221.html) for "safety and alcohol violations and allegations of physical abuse and racist conduct." Both in the same month---I'm impressed.

Let's also not forget the Bowling Green KA brother arrested for setting fire to his own frat house (http://www.unc.edu/depts/greek/RM91.htm).

Here's a great quote from that chapter's president, John Deeb: "The gentlemen in this room have very positive feelings for him."

Down in lovely Alabama, my neighboring state, their Supreme Court ruled that a KA brother couldn't sue the fraternity for hazing (http://www.campussafety.org/lawyers/kaoal.html). Why? Because he'd endured it an entire school year.

A little closer to my lovely Statesboro, GA home, the Emory University KA chapter found themselves in a flap because their yearbook photo featured a member in blackface (http://www.emory.edu/WHEEL/Archive/00Apr04/offtop1.html).

Here's the picture in question: http://www.emory.edu/WHEEL/Archive/00Apr04/grphx/off1photo.jpg

To quote columnist Amos Jones, "Emory will be a better university with KA gone. If KA remains, we're surely headed for an escalation of the racial tensions they delight in igniting."

In a less spectacular incident, App State's KA and Sigma Nu chapters both got the boot (http://www1.appstate.edu/dept/csil/Archives/00-3-9/news.htm#Kappa%20Alpha,%20Sigma%20Nu%20suspended) (may God damn those Mountaineers to hell) after "host[ing] an off-campus 'bid party' Feb. 4 and fail[ing] to provide security at the party, maintain a guest list or monitor underage drinking."

Hope this helps, Icon---true Southern values at work. Hell, I just say "yes, sir" and "no, ma'am" a whole lot. Maybe I should start drinking more and get a rebel flag tattooed somewhere on me.

[The Icon]

Now that, Freethinker, is some concrete evidence to support an arguement.

See, KABillyMac, all it takes is some research.

[KABillyMac]

Here is the thing. You have hundreds of active chapters, and you expect all of them to be on their best behavior at all times. Since you and Icon dont have the good sense that God gave a goose, then I wouldnt expect you to realize this. You take any one GLO in this nation and show me some CONCRETE evidence that atleast on of their chapters hasnt been in trouble before, and I will stand corrected. No sense in wasting your pathetic lives trying to research that, cause your not going to find it.

That article about R.E.L is absolute horseshit. You need to do your R.E.L research before you come here posting that kind of absurdity.

I will be damned if I will explain to you one single damn thing to you about my Order or any of its chapters. Its none of your damn buisness.

Crawl back under the rock.

[freethinker]

M'friend, I think I have done my research. Want me to post more?

[KABillyMac]

What your best bet is to find something more meaningful to do with your life. For example, during my freetime I like to do this thing called "dating". Yes yes, I know its all new to you but please bear with me. You see, what you do is, find yourself a young lady that you are interested in, ask her out, and have yourself a good time. Its really not all that hard. There are other hobbies out there too, believe it or not. Just try any one of these things and I am sure that the KA forum will be but a memory to you.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
What your best bet is to find something more meaningful to do with your life. For example, during my freetime I like to do this thing called "dating". Yes yes, I know its all new to you but please bear with me. You see, what you do is, find yourself a young lady that you are interested in, ask her out, and have yourself a good time. Its really not all that hard. There are other hobbies out there too, believe it or not. Just try any one of these things and I am sure that the KA forum will be but a memory to you.

Come on KABillyMac, you make it sound like you've done all this dating without the use of date rape drugs or cruising the family reunions. Now I know all where all this "Southern Tradition" is going...

[freethinker]

So since I've completely overloaded your feeble intellect by providing ample factual proof (with references, no less) of stupid things KA does whilst holding up "traditional Southern values," you see the need to imply that I'm either

1) Gay.

or

2) Have never been on a date.

Excellent debating skills. You're a credit to your order, which in light of the evidence really isn't saying all that much.

Besides, you're still here. What's the matter, having a slow week?

[Dionysus]

Freethinker,

Please go to the Greek Life or Chit Chat forum. There are more people you can argue with and I am sure your questions will be answered. And, don't worry these guys will follow you there.

[KABillyMac]

Like Ive already said, I can use my debating skills in a hell of alot more constructive way than sitting here debating with two narrow minded morons that have nothing better to do with their time than sit at the computer and dig up articles regarding KA. I dont think you get the point that I dont have to answer to you or anyone about the affairs of the Order. So sling shit all you want, it wont help a damn bit. If I felt I was obligated to have to answer to either one of you I swear I would just assume knaw my own leg off.

Again, I ask you. Give me one social GLO that hasnt had one of their chapters get into trouble and here before God and everybody I will apologize to you. I realize this is a bold statement but I wont have to worry about doing its all gravy.

I think your beef with KA more than likely stems from one of two things. 1) you rushed and were denied a bid. or 2) you were balled for some reason. Now I'm willing to bet that not only are the two of you one in the same person, but that also one of these reasons apply to you. I have directed my comments to the two of you (plural) because quite frankly, this is my first dealing with a person with split personalities. Its a new ballgame for me. Wait, it just accured to me that the two of you could be some kind of dorm buddies, or maybe your on the same team in dungeons and dragons, or magic, or whatever it is that you play. Whatever the case, the fact remains. Something with KA must have had some sort of personal affect on you or you wouldnt be here.

Oh yeah, by the way. The reason I am still here is because this is our forum.

One more thing, i think you might have a slight problem with your sexuality. You automatically assumed that my comment on your lack of dating was a refrence to you being a homosexual, which, in no way was it. Maybe you should have that checked out.

[The Icon]

Sorry, dude. I'm The Icon. One guy. Singular.

Don't play dungeons and dragons. Don't play magic. Don't live in a dorm. Finished with school. I was a Greek though. However, KA was the frat for the really really redneck guys. Social misfits if you will.

I'm just a normal guy poking the monkey at the zoo.

By the way, homosexuality isn't a disease, so freethinker getting it "checked out" will do him no good.

[KABillyMac]

His mental bout with what his sexual preference is. You dont read to well do you?

The fact that KA on your campus had what you viewed as "rednecks" is just another example of the sterotypical ideas that you have spewed all over this forum. Sounds like an outsiders view, did you rush KA? Did you take the time to get to know all the brothers?

Poking the monkey at the zoo. Thats quite a fitting analogy. I keep having this reoccuring vision of a little snot nosed boy, throwing rocks at a caged animal, only to have his mother walk over and snatch him away while he is kicking and screaming and crying and throwing a tempertantrum that makes not only the monkey wanna go crazy on him, but the lions, tigers, and bears too. Oh my.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
His mental bout with what his sexual preference is. You dont read to well do you?

The fact that KA on your campus had what you viewed as "rednecks" is just another example of the sterotypical ideas that you have spewed all over this forum. Sounds like an outsiders view, did you rush KA? Did you take the time to get to know all the brothers?

See, again witht he assumptions. If Greel life at your school is anything like it is at mine, we have socials, parties, mixers, Greek Week, and any other number of events that involve the different organizations coming together.

And guess what, KA are a bunch a redneck, poor white trash, asses.

Yours may be different, however, Sigma Nu, Sigma Chi, Sigma Phi Epsilon, Tau Kappa Alpha, Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Phi Mu, Zeta Tau Delta, Kappa Delta, and Delta Tau Delta ALL steer clear of the Kappa Alphas here.

And I think you know why.

[dzrose93]

This whole thread has gotten entirely out of hand.

KABillyMac's point is that EVERY Greek organization has SOME bad chapters that cause problems and embarrassment to the entire Greek system. Nobody is perfect, and I don't see why some people in this forum have suddenly started bashing Kappa Alpha Order. You would think by reading some of these posts that they are the ONLY fraternal organization in the world that's had problems. :rolleyes:

Kappa Alpha men went through Rush and picked the organization whose members made them feel the most comfortable -- the same as any other rushee does. They are no different than any other fraternity member in that regard, and it is an insult to them that people stereotype them as racist and ignorant on a daily basis. The VAST majority of KA's are decent, upstanding men and everyone would do well to remember that.

You simply can't pigeonhole an entire organization as being racist just because of the ignorant actions of a few members, which is why the articles that freethinker posted carry no weight with me at all. From personal experience, I know that the media loves to blow things out of proportion and I take no stock in most articles they publish about Greeks, anyway. But, even if those articles were 100% accurate, I still wouldn't judge the entire KA Order based on the idiocy of a few members.

The main thing that makes KA a target these days for so many unenlightened people is the fact that Robert E. Lee, a famous Confederate general, is a person who the fraternity continues to salute as being a great help to the founding of the organization. If some people had their way, KA would be forced to bury their history in the sand in order to be 110% "politically correct" and not offend anyone.

The truth is, it would be very wrong of KA to ignore the influence of Lee on the Order. Not only would it be unfair to Lee's memory to not inform future generations of KA's about the impact he had on the Order, but it would be a gross misrepresentation of the fraternity's history to leave him out.

The fraternity was founded during a controversial period in our nation's history and, by chance, it was assisted in its start-up by someone who was on the losing end of a civil war. The gentlemen of KA respect the history of their GLO, and they are proud of it -- as they should be! After all, there is absolutely nothing wrong with showing pride in your organization.

You can't wipe out history, people, and it's dead wrong to criticize and negatively stereotype an extremely large group of men simply because their organization was created during a time of civil unrest, and because some of its members in more recent history have acted in a manner unbefitting their Order. I guarantee you that the Southern gentlemen of KA are just as upset as you are (probably more so) about those idiots who brought embarrassment to their organization.

One final thing before I close: Icon, I don't know what group of which you are a member. However, I'd be very willing to bet that not all of your organization's chapter members have halos above their heads. People living in glass houses shouldn't cast stones. So please stop the KA bashing. As Greeks, we should be working together to make things better in our communities -- not tearing each other down by perpetuating stereotypes. If the KA chapter at your alma mater isn't the best in the area, that's fine. But please don't paint the entire KA Order with the same brush you use for the local chapter at your school.

[Thrillhouse]

Plus the icon and freethinker, who are one in the same probably, didn't get in to whichever org. they wanted.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by dzrose93
This whole thread has gotten entirely out of hand.

One final thing before I close: Icon, I don't know what group of which you are a member. However, I'd be very willing to bet that not all of your organization's chapter members have halos above their heads. People living in glass houses shouldn't cast stones. So please stop the KA bashing. As Greeks, we should be working together to make things better in our communities -- not tearing each other down by perpetuating stereotypes. If the KA chapter at your alma mater isn't the best in the area, that's fine. But please don't paint the entire KA Order with the same brush you use for the local chapter at your school.

Look, this is getting a bit out of hand, so here's the deal.

1) The only point that I wanted to make was that anyone, KA or otherwise that dresses in the garments of the Southern army is either clinging to some misguided ideal or ignorant of the social implications.

2) You're right. Not all greeks are bad people. Not all KA's are bad people. However, like any organization, Greek or otherwise, you'll always be jusged by the most visible and vocal members. Unfortunalty, they tend to be the ones that present the most negative image.


By the way, and for the last time, I am one man.

[West Texas KA]

Guys Guys Guys,
Listen, you guys are never going to change each others mind. The fact is you too posted these comments on our form. You are attacking things that we love so of course Billy is going to be upset. I am too. Not all KA's are racist idiots. I have a friend that witnised the UNT event. SHe said it was one guy making all the others look bad. The were not all yelling racist remarks like you make it sound. The president of the chapter told the guy not to take the battle flag. So one guy made all the rest look bad. Same things with those other chapters. We are not bad people. We are in a fraternity which we love and believe in. If we didn't we wouldn't be in it. You are not going to change what we as KA believe any more than we are gonna change you. As for the "DO YOUR REASERCH" you can find anything on the web to support what you think.. The difference between us and you is that we have not taken the time out of our schedules to find it. That does not mean it is not out there. OH ya not all frat guys are druken alcholics. Some of us actually know about are Fraternity and get pissed when ill in formed people attack it. If you have not seen our initation than none of you know about KA truely there for you are ill-informed.
" For God and the Ladies"
Kappa Alpha Order

P.S. Thanks to the DZ Rose for the kind words of encouragement. Greeks should truely deffend each other and not bash each others traditions.

[freethinker]

Jeez... ya take a couple of days off of the Internet, and what happens?

Anyway, I'd like to wholeheartedly agree with Icon's last statement. It is getting a bit out of hand.

And, taking a cue from Icon (search for posts he's made, they're frickin' hilarious), I've got an idea to finish the discussion.

As such, I say we handle it in bear suits. Fights at my place, next Friday night. I'll even let KA members wear their Confederate garb (over the bear suit, of course).

If I win, Statesboro, GA KA guys can't wear grey. If anyone else wins, I'll cry (like the dateless homosexual wonder that the general consensus says I am).

If somebody dies, then we'll say it's a tragic hunting accident, or hazing gone awry.

[lilly27]

I was just wondering if you know the guys in KA at GSU?

[KABillyMac]

So since we have all agreed to disagree, does that mean that you will be crawling back under the stouthouse rock now?

[seaprincess]

HI EVERYONE, THIS IS THE PERSON WHO STARTED THIS THREAD...AND I HAVE TO ADD THAT YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN OF NO HELP WHAT-SO-EVER, AND MY ESSAY IS DUE TOMORROW(APRIL 30TH) SO THATS GREAT... THANKS EVERYONE


AND FREETHINKER...I'VE NEVER BEEN MORE DISTURBED BY ANYONE THAN I AM BY YOU. PLEASE CALL: 1-800-CHECK-MY-HEAD

[KABillyMac]

Sorry, this is not the thread you started.

Good luck with you paper.

[Lil_G]

Well maybe you shouldn't have waited 6 days before it was due to start your research...especially from random ppl off the internet, you should have contacted individuals from your school....

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by seaprincess
HI EVERYONE, THIS IS THE PERSON WHO STARTED THIS THREAD...AND I HAVE TO ADD THAT YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN OF NO HELP WHAT-SO-EVER, AND MY ESSAY IS DUE TOMORROW(APRIL 30TH) SO THATS GREAT... THANKS EVERYONE


AND FREETHINKER...I'VE NEVER BEEN MORE DISTURBED BY ANYONE THAN I AM BY YOU. PLEASE CALL: 1-800-CHECK-MY-HEAD

It would probably have been better for you to post this in Greek Life rather than in a single fraternity forum. Not nearly as many people visit the KA forum as compared to the general Greek Life forum.

However, I must say that you will probably get more detailed and relevant information from people on your own campus rather than people on the internet. The reason is that it's very hard to know if someone is telling the truth online, and you don't want your paper to be based on a bunch of comments that may or may not be the truth. It's much easier to determine if a comment is factual if you actually know the person already and can speak with him/her face to face about your subject matter.

Good luck. Hope you get your paper finished in time. :)

[revjack]

"FreeThinker"
I read your article with the express purpose of giving you the benefit of the doubt. I assumed that you would at least know some of the facts about which you wrote. Clearly, you are quite unaware of a number of facts.

1. The major cause for the war between the states was NOT slavery. (I realize that this has been taught as fact since the late 1800s... In fact, I was taught this as a child in a GA elementary school.) The major cause was a confederation of states wanted a government that was less federalized. They wanted each state to have the authority to govern themselves. Lincoln, a good man in a difficult situation, used slavery as a tool to turn the tide in the war. (This nearly backfired, since slavery was prevelant in the north as well.)

2. The "Old South" about which you think you are writing is really only the "recent old south." The Old South celebrated and honored by the gentlemen of the Kappa Alpha Order is much older than the 1920s and 30s. The ideals that were held, chilvalry and honor, are what we celebrate. (You will notice that I used the term "gentlemen"... That is who we are. We have no need to write or speak with the type of language you use.) We are more than capable of getting our point across without the use of vulgarities.

3. The "wanton rape of black women..." that you speak of did unfortunately happen. This is unexcusable. However, it is clear to me that your idea of what the "old south" was like comes from books such as "Uncle Tom's Cabin." (While this is an important piece of literature in our history, it is FICTION!) One should read more than just biased, one-sided literature before assuming they are "educated" on a subject.

Sure you have a right to your opinion about who were are and what we do. However, there is nothing that our Order indorses that glorifies the institution of slavery. We do not seek to bring back the ills of the past, but to bring back that which we have lost that will only make life better. How can someone say that it is wrong to treat a woman as a lady? How can someone say that it is wrong to honor God? How can someone say that we must limit our constitutional and God-given right to free speech because someone might be offended due to their own ignorance. That, dear sir, is unfortunately what you have to deal with. You are ignorant of many facts. And I would suggest that until you learn more on this subject, you should refrain from maligning the many great men about whom you speak.

As Mark Twain wrote: "It is better to not speak and be thought a fool, than to speak and prove it."

[The Icon]

Everyone go home, threads over, nothing to see here.

[baby_KA83]

okay that article disturbed the sh*t out of me. I am an African-American KA and damn proud of it. It doesn't mean I "turned my back on my own people" or that I am a "sell out" cause I know where I came from and where I'm going. I don't give a f*ck what anyone thinks of me being a member of Kappa Alpha Order. Being a gentleman is something that our parents taught us WAY before we knew what a fraternity was (with the exception of KA legacies). The guy who wrote that can eat a fat d*ck (excuse my language) and for whoever spent an inordinate amount of time on diggin' dirt up on the Order, go to Riverside's chapter in CA or come to my chapter in Oklahoma City and get proven wrong. And someone said it before me there are other frats and sororities who aren't as squeaky clean either so if you are going to attack us, attack the ENTIRE greek system in the U.S. but don't come f*ckin' with us only.

Peace easy

[KABillyMac]

B.S.

:D

[UT Martin KA]

I really hate to break this to you...since you are a KA you are going to be narrow minded and think that your frat is the shit, and maybe your chapter unlike the hundreds around the US are not racist ingnorant hill billy's just MAYBE your chapter is GREAT...but NOT ALL ARE.

DeltaDarling:

As a member of Kappa Alpha Order, I would like to speak privately with you on this matter. I will get you in touch with the people you need to report this horrible event to. I hate that our precious order has been permanently disgraced by the actions of a few individuals who obviously were asleep during inanition or were just not paying attention to the morals that we, as knights of our Order, hold so dear to our hearts (or at least should). I hope that you will someday see that 95% of KAs are not nearly as narrow minded as these at Steven F. Austin. I pray that you contact me so that this matter can be resolved and the individuals who so blatantly disgrace our precious letters might be brought to justice.

[SWTXBelle]

One of the main problems in dealing with a discussion of the War Between the States (I don't use the term "Civil War" because the CSA never sought to take over the USA but instead seceded) is that the history books are written by the victors. The tree remembers what the ax forgot. As a former college professor, I find it helpful to simply deliver a little pop quiz to establish certain facts.

1. In 1860, the states of the future C.S.A. paid 87% of all tariffs in the U.S.A.
- True
- False

2. No slaves came to the U.S.A. on ships flying the flag of the C.S.A., but fortunes were made by the citizens of the U.S.A. who brought thousands of captured Africans to this country.
-True
-False

3. In the 4th Lincoln-Doublas debate on September 18th, 1858, (less than 3 yrs. before the War) Lincoln stated "I will say, then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and Iwill say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race. "
-True
-False

4. Slavery continued to be legal in four states of the U.S.A. throughout the War.
-True
-False

5. The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves ONLY in the states of the C.S.A. not under U.S.A. control.
-True
-False

6. As a condition of joining the U.S.A. at the time of the American Revolution, several states, including Massachusetts and Virginia, specifically retained the right of secession.
-True
-False

7. Upon inheriting his father-in-laws property, Robert E. Lee immediately began freeing his slaves, and owned no slaves at the time of Emacipation Proclamation.
-True
-False

8. Before the WBTS, the South was one of the richest areas of the U.S.A.
-True
-False

9. In his 1860 inaugural address, Lincoln said that he had no intention to interfere with slavery because he had no legal right to do so.
-True
-False

10. Some Union generals didn't free their slaves until the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868.
-True
-False

11. Ulysses Grant was the last U.S. president to own slaves.
-True
-False

12. In a letter to Elihu Washburne written during the War, Grant wrote "I never was an Abolitionist, not even what could be called anti slavery." To his father on May 6, 1861, Grant wrote "A few decisive victories in some of the southern ports will send the secession army howling and . . . negroes will depreciate so rapidly in value that no body will want to own them . . . the nigger will never disturb this country again."
-True
-False

13. The U.S.A. is the only country in the Western Hemisphere that did not peacefully abolish slavery.
-True
-False

14. In 1856, Robert E. Lee made this statement "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil."
-True
-False

15. In the 20th century, the KKK used both the battle flag of the C.S.A. and the Stars and Stripes of the U.S.A. in their marches.
-True
-False

16. After the War, many northern cities passes laws forbidding freed slaves from residing there.
-True
-False

I could go on - but my point is this. If you want to discuss the WBTS, you must deal with all of the complexities and political truths involved - not just those presented as justification for the War from the U.S.A. I will not tell you the answers - I've found it far better for those with no deep knowledge of the facts of TWBS to do their own research, and thus avoid any appearance of bias. The above statements are either true or false, and a quick internet search will lead you to the authoritative sources to establish the correct answer.
Having said that, there is no excuse for any GLO in indulge in any behavior which is racist, sexist, or in any way demeaning to anyone. I would hope that KA would immediately punish any and all members who in any way cause dishonour to themselves or the South.