Abortion and the stance you take?

[damasa]

Ok, this is a topic that is still a huge issue in the world today. I did a search and didn't find all that much discussion on it.

So, my question is to you other gcers. What are your feelings and or stance on abortion? Are you "pro life" or "pro choice" or are you indifferent about the whole thing.

I don't want to turn this into a huge flame war, I just want to simply understand some of you on a political level, not a do you choose this or that level.

Personally, I am "pro choice." I believe that a woman has the right to choose.

Where do you stand?

d

[PKTSU01]

Good post dude.

I'm also pro-choice, for personal reasons along with the mentality that there is no way implemented political or legal measures should ever even approach effecting personal reproductive choices. Even beyond a woman's individual choice to the issue would be mine as well, afterall, it would be my kid too. Know what I mean? Besides, I COMPLETELY discredit the boohooing that goes on from pro lifers when many of them have never even had to think about making the choice of whether or not to abort. There are plenty of people who jump on the political bandwagon from the standpoint of trying to impose their morals and wills on others, which is bullshit. Leave the politics to the politicians, not in my personal life! Oh, while pro-choice, i don't think it is legitimate to use the option of pro-choice to get out of a mishap you may have had when you were 18 because you chose not to be smart about contraception. You're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to be responsible and deal with the consequences. In addition, rape, molestation and other things of that nature have my complete backing for the pro-choice err..choice.

Dealing with that situation is one of the hardest things in the world to do, and unless someone has had that certain nauseating feeling of the pressing, impending choice they may have to make, they have nothing to say on the topic, at least nothing that I would listen to anyway. We are all totally entitled to individual opinions. If you're pro-choice, great, pro -life , great, but your opinion matters little to me anyways on this issue. Bottom line is, abortion is a highly sensitive issue that should be resolved by the individuals whose lives it will affect, and no one else. To me, have any opinion ya want, I'll just use personal discretion to give more value to some opinions over others.

[UMgirl]

I would have to say im pro-life, cept in the cases of rape, molestation or if it endangers ones health. I think its a couple's choice (55% woman, 45% man, woman gets more b/c she does carry it for 9 mos), not just a womans b/c it takes two to make it. I kind of make the respirator analogy for it. A baby in the womb is using it mother to breathe, we do the same for people on respirators, they arent doing it themselves but have help. Why are they considered living and a fetus not? I could be using this wrong, but this just is MY opinion and Im open to others. People have the right to take whatever side they want :)

[Beef]

Im kind of torn on this one myself... part of me says pro choice and part says pro life.

The pro choice part of me says dont bring a baby into a potenially poor situation or environment. I would be totally for it when it comes to pregnency from rape.

The pro life part says, if you dont wanna so the time, dont do the crime. Just because 2 people were careless and arent ready for it, why should that child be denied life due to their irresponsibility? There are always famillies looking to adopt ect ect... Obviously mistakes happen in some cases, failed contraceptives ect ect...

One thing that I dont like is the saying, "its a womans body, its her choice" Granted, a woman will be carrying the baby in her body, but does that make the mans contribution anyless valuable? I think the mans rights get put aside or forgot about.

My cousin is actually going through a HUGE ordeal with his ex trying to get custody of their child. She was going to put it up for adoption(and actually DID, the familly already had the child), without him knowing what was going on. So now that she finds out that he wants the child, she decides to take it back(nice how spite can bring a mother and child closer:rolleyes: :mad: ) This has been going through the courts for a few months now and he can still only see his son with her present. This was even on the news up here... It gets me more upset everytime I think about it.

sorry for rambling....

[damasa]

Ok..there's a little more that I want to add to this.

If you choose pro-life, is that based on a personal decision or on a religious influence?

Why i ask this is because if it is based on a religious influence, do you favor the use of violence (killing doctors, blowing up clinics) in order to sway society to become pro-life. Because to me, it's ironic. How can one justify killing a doctor, or severly hurting others, in order to protect "pro-life." Taking away the life of one for the life of another is not pro-life, that's pro-violence if you ask me.

There is also a site I came across, I'll try to find it, headed by a pro-life organization. On one of the pages it has pictures of many doctors that perform abortions. For every doctor that has died or has been killed, there is a huge red x through the picture, and on the bottom of the page there is some crazy message like, "23443880 more doctors to go" or something like that. Anyone else ever come across that site, if it hasn't been shut down?

d

[Beef]

Ive heard about that site... Talk about hypocrites.....:mad:

[LexiKD]

Although I do not think it should be a form of birth control and/or abused, I am pro choice. There are too many factors invovled to say that every abortion is wrong.

[Eirene_DGP]

I could never imagine having an abortion and I think it is wrong in every sense of the word. I look at it like this, if you have unprotected sex and have a child, you knew EXACTLY what you were doing. If you were raped and did not seek medical treatment, that is on you. Everyone deserves a chance to live. It bothers me when people get an abortion because they claim they weren't ready. No one is ever ready for a child. I am tired of people using abortions like some new generation birth control.

It is a sad day when people will no longer take responsibility for their own actions. Like Eminem says, you can't slip and fall on someone's D*^%!

Just a little background information, both of my parents were adopted and I plan to adopt as well. I would not be here today if my biological grandparents chose to abort.

[damasa]

Originally posted by Eirene_DGP
If you were raped and did not seek medical treatment, that is on you.



Assuming the rape conceived life, what kind of medical treatment are we talking about? A pregnancy test to confirm a pregnancy? IF so, then what? Or maybe the morning after pill? Some people consider that a form of abortion, not birth control. What type of medical treatment are we talking about? And for what circumstances?

d

[Siobhan]

I am pro-choice: who am I to stick my nose into other people's business - people I don't even know. However there are certain circumstances where I am pro-life, for instance when people think that abortion is just another form of birth control.

Here's an afterthought. In Vancouver there have been a couple of murders of doctors who carry out abortions; and one man has had his life jepordized twice by anti-abortionists: if someone is pro-life then why are these people out committing acts of murder/attempted murder?!

[Betarulz!]

I am definetly Pro-choice.

I don't know that if put in that situation it would be the correct choice for me and the girl. However for some people that is the action they are willing to take and they shoudln't be denied access to that choice. And a woman should be allowed to have absolute control over what happens to her body.

The thing that really bothers me about pro-lifers (the fanatical ones, like the ones who maintain the website that has "23443880 more doctors to go") is that they seem incapable of making the differentiation between being pro-CHOICE and pro-ABORTION. There is obviously a very big difference, adn it was something that a friend and I joked about during boys state.

Plus where do they get off trying to run other peoples life? That also really bugs the hell out of me.

Anyway I should get back to studying.

[Hootie]

Originally posted by damasa
Ok..there's a little more that I want to add to this.

If you choose pro-life, is that based on a personal decision or on a religious influence?

Why i ask this is because if it is based on a religious influence, do you favor the use of violence (killing doctors, blowing up clinics) in order to sway society to become pro-life. Because to me, it's ironic. How can one justify killing a doctor, or severly hurting others, in order to protect "pro-life." Taking away the life of one for the life of another is not pro-life, that's pro-violence if you ask me.

There is also a site I came across, I'll try to find it, headed by a pro-life organization. On one of the pages it has pictures of many doctors that perform abortions. For every doctor that has died or has been killed, there is a huge red x through the picture, and on the bottom of the page there is some crazy message like, "23443880 more doctors to go" or something like that. Anyone else ever come across that site, if it hasn't been shut down?

d
They had a special on Dateline (I believe) about this sort of thing a few weeks ago. I was sickened that they were going after abortion doctors. I mean they think it's wrong for women to have an abortion but they think it's okay to kill someone for practicing what was legal in that state?!?!? DEFINATLEY HIPOCRITICAL!:mad: :eek: :confused:

My whole stance on this issue has changed in the past 2 years. I used to be full-fledged PRO-CHOICE and my reasons were that I believed that if a women was harmed in anyway and was carrying a baby that was unwanted (by means of molestation or rape) she should have the choice to keep it or not. My reasoning was that often women who are raped want to move on with their lives, and although the baby could be given a good life through adoption, the child might try to find the mother later on in life. Plus the whole part of ridicule that a woman could face during the 9 months is more than any woman who has been raped should deal with.

I am PRO-LIFE now because I know for one I might not be around were it not for a simple choice my mom made 22 years ago. My mother and father were engaged when they concieved me, and they could have easily said we don't need this and had an abortion. Instead they had me. That's part of the reason why I changed my mind on the issue. I think too many young women AND men see abortion as an escape from their responsibilities. If you're not ready to be a mommy or daddy then don't have sex...plain and simple.
Perhaps what it comes down to isn't the choice...but the act. I think it's gross and disgusting. I don't think that I could ever put my body through that. I'd rather be disowned from my family for being an unwed pregnant mother (which would never happen) than have an abortion.
Choices come fast, but abortions last forever. You can't take it back. I'm just thankful I've never had to deal with this problem!

[greek girlie]

Assuming the rape conceived life, what kind of medical treatment are we talking about?

It takes 24-48 hours to for an egg to be fertilized. If immediate medical attention is sought the uterus can be flushed so the sperm and egg actually never meet. This is a little known fact and doctors don't usually tell victims about it. This prevents pregnancy-obviously. It can take a day or two of recovery because of the dilation but that would be much better that the emotional trauma of what to do about a prenancy.

Personally I am anti-abortion. I use that term instead of pro-life, because who is really "anti-life" or "anti-choice." I have personal reasons as well as religious reasons for feeling this way. I don't condone the killing of abortion doctors. In fact, it makes me very mad because it makes people like me look like my beliefs are less valid. Even though I am really conservative I feel like birth-control education is important-people have sex no matter what. Young people in other countries don't have the pregnany rate we do here. That's because they are 10 times more likely to use contraception, not because they don't have sex.

get down off that soapbox

[greek girlie]

BTW
I am totally against mid-breech cranial deflations (a.k.a. partial-birth abortions). These babies could live on their own outside a woman's body. That, in my opinion, is murder. I have seen one of these in person and I was absolutely disgusted.

[justamom]

greek girlie and Hootie, I am with you.
Seeking immediate medical attention can prevent a pregnancy that would end in an abortion.

In college I took a sex education course and Dr. McCarey said that the number of people seeking an abortion per year was comprised of over 50% second time operations. Half had already had an abortion at one time. It may have changed as this was in the 70's.
I heard an interesting news item last night. A child can now sue if her mother was in a car accident that leads to a disability (negligence) when she was pregnant. Yet, it's OK if the mother wants to rip the child apart in the later stages of pregnancy. I guess a dead baby can't bring charges.
In the case of incest, the mother's life, rape, I am really torn. The Catholic church believed it was important to save the child first, but what if there are 4 or 5 other little ones at home? Incest usually isn't reported in time to use the morning after pill. On these few points, I say it is between you and your God.
However, abortion as a means of birth control...because somebody screwed up...is so terribly wrong (in my heart and mind) that it DOES affect my political sense. Everyone says "What about the mother's right to choose, it's her body?" Well what about the BABY's choice?

[carnation]

One of my adopted daughters was conceived as the result of a rape. She is from a country where abortion is very easily available up to the NINTH month. Her birthmother, a teenager, shielded her pregnancy from her parents in order to save her baby.

I thank God for my daughter and I guess you know where I stand on this issue!

[aggieAXO]

I fully believe in abortion and not just in cases on incest or rape. While it is easy to say that if you have sex and if you get pregnant then that is the bed you made for yourself and deal with it. I have to think of the potential child in this situation-is it fair to that child to live with someone that screwed up and may resent them. Also, will this child be living in a stable environment (though stability does not guarantee a normal child/adult it is the most ideal situation)? Will this child be provided for? I think it is selfish to bring a child into this world if you cannot provide for him or her and I do not want my taxes providing either. In the ideal world all would be responsible but this is not the case unfortunately. Personally if my mom had aborted me I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't care-you don't miss what you don't have.
I perform abortions almost every week-on cats and dogs but they are still abortions technically. The pet overpopulation is so overwhelming that I don't feel guilty about doing this. I sometimes feel that the human population is also getting out of control. I wish people would think about having children in a responsible way but there are many that do not. If you don't believe in abortion-I FULLY RESPECT your opinion, but I don't want the government telling me or any other woman out there that I can't have one no matter how I got pregnant.

[KSig RC]

[messed-up rant]

OK - a quick perusal of various sources will uncover for you some interesting information, such as when a fetus begins having a heartbeat, when alpha-wave patterns begin in the brain, and when 'mock-breathing' begins (with the still-fluid-filled lungs). Now - at what point does something become 'human?' Does being human entail having a heartbeat? Thinking? Breathing?

If so, every dolphin is, too, a human. Truth is, I don't think any of us are in a position to judge when something 'becomes' a person - think about it.

Now - why be pro-choice? People perceive a "right to choose" - a right to choose what? To have a baby (or not)? To go through labor? To have an inconvenient child, or one who will be born at an implicit disadvantage?

Well . . .

Why be anti-abortion? For many, it's due to religious and moral obligation - "killing" of the unborn child, or simply a belief that abortion should not be birth control - the "if you slip one past the goalie . . . " defense.

None of these arguments alone, from either side, makes much sense to me.

Straight up, this becomes an argument of moral values and, thus, religious structure. Think about it - this is an argument that relies on subjective definitions and notable exceptions (ie the word "living", the case of rape, etc), not one that has a clear backbone and structure. Is it murder? Well - it depends on how you define all this stuff.

I openly question the validity of imposing moral structure on others. This is NOT the same as making a law against rape, murder, or tax evasion - this is a subjective argument, with a significant split in public opinion from one side to the other.

As such - I don't think imposing any sort of anti-abortion legislation, other than making the availability of abortions "standardized" (ie eliminating partial-birth abortions etc) for all. I don't feel that imposing any sort of uniform set of values is reasonable, and abortion would be the classic example of this, I feel. I most likely would never have an abortion - but I feel that it's unimportant to my daily life that someone else may. I am in no position to rationalize making another's decision for him or her.

[/rant]

Now - if you want to hear a truly radical idea, we can get into the carrying-capacity of the earth, population controls, and the elimination of natural selection in humans . . . but we'll save that for another time - no need to toss the poopy into the fan.

[aggieAXO]

I am pretty radical when it comes to this subject so whatever you have to say probably won't shock me. BTW abortion has nothing to do with religion for me but i know for many people it is intertwined.



Originally posted by KSig RC
[messed-up rant
Now - if you want to hear a truly radical idea, we can get into the carrying-capacity of the earth, population controls, and the elimination of natural selection in humans . . . but we'll save that for another time - no need to toss the poopy into the fan.

[UMgirl]

If you choose pro-life, is that based on a personal decision or on a religious influence?
For me its the fact that I just dont like to see people dying. Funny, Im mostly republican, pro-life and against the the death penalty. What are the odds of that.
Pro-lifers who go out and kill doctors and others who are involved with clinics are just DEAD wrong for doing it. It defeats not only the principle, but the whole freakin purpose of the cause. However, I would like to say that I have seen just as many harsh tactics get used by Pro-Choicers. Maybe not killing (that anyone knows of), but there have been many instances where they have been wayy more harsh pro-life. Two way street, sometimes both groups are nuts.
About the dolphin comment. This is just my opinion...a life is a life and breathing is breathing not matter what the species is.
About the comment of resenting the child and having it grow up in certain situations, this is just my opinion and thoughts on that....I'd keep my legs shut. If I cant help myself, there are numerous birth control methods out there for me and him to take. Sometimes you can even double up, i,e. the pill and a condom. If the condom breaks, your still in the clear. Morning after pill, hey guess what if your not sure, you have 72 hours to take it. Accidents do happen, BUT they can be prevented also. But hey people are going to do whatever they want. Its there lives and I always think you should live it for the best. For some reason I just think about the consequences of things I do before I do them, even if its in the heat of the moment. Sometimes, its after though. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.
Also Im glad to see we have been handling this touchy subject in mature manner so far..hopefully it'll stay.

[UMgirl]

oh and I dont think any child is an accident, just using the example.

I think we should also clearify that no all pro-choicers think the same and not all pro-lifers think alike

[dzrose93]

This is a very sensitive topic for me. I am completely, totally, without a shadow of a doubt pro-choice. I seriously could write a book about why I feel the way I do, but I'll limit it right now to just a few reasons and personal examples.

First, I feel no one should be able to tell a woman that she has to have a baby. I get so sick and tired of seeing all these sign-waving protesters harassing women at clinics! :mad: Who gave them the right to tell someone else how she should live her life? How would they like it if a group of people decided to show up at their church as they are going to Sunday services and stand outside calling them names and screaming that they're going to hell because they don't follow the right doctrine? Or if a group of people found some past discretion in their lives and stood outside in public shouting about it to the world?

I'd be willing to bet that not a single one of those pro-life protesters has lived a 100% pious life and never made a mistake that they regret. It is for that reason that I firmly believe in the old saying, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

I have a very dear friend who got pregnant in college. She was using birth control pills and, unfortunately, got pregnant even though she was practicing responsible sex. Her boyfriend supported her decision to have the abortion because they were both young and didn't feel like they a) were ready to be parents and b) couldn't give a child everything that they would like him/her to have at that point in their lives. They also didn't feel it would be fair to foist the expense of a child on their parents who were the only family members who could have afforded to bring that child up in a proper manner. So, rather than bring a child into the world under poor circumstances, they chose to have an abortion. I stand by their decision totally, and I feel that if more women would sit down and think about what kind of life they would be providing for a child then they might realize that it is better to wait and have children when they are more financially and emotionally stable themselves.

Moving on... To me, I don't think ANYONE has the right to criticize a woman who has chosen to have an abortion unless they have been in that very same circumstance. That's why I have such an enormous problem with men who protest so loudly about the evils of abortion. I guess it's pretty easy for them to stand there and yell Bible verses, knowing full well that there is no way for them to EVER be in that position themselves.

It amazes me when I hear people preaching in interviews about how a woman should give her baby up for adoption instead of choosing to have an abortion. I'd like to know exactly how many pro-life supporters would actually accept a woman's offer if she suddenly turned to them outside an abortion clinic and said, "Okay, I'll have the baby -- but you and you alone have to adopt my child and give him/her a prosperous, happy upbringing. You can't find someone to adopt him - YOU have to do it yourself." It's really easy to adamantly say, "Sure, I'd take the baby," right now in theory -- but if an instance like that happened in real-life, how many of those people would really back up their pro-life words with actions? I would, just once, love to see someone do that. I can just picture the stunned, deer-in-a-headlight looks on the majority of those protesters' faces. (Carnation - I know you'd be one of the few opening your arms out immediately and I truly respect you for that!) :)

Don't get me wrong -- I agree that adoption is a wonderful thing, and I have several friends who are unable to have children who are planning to adopt in the near future. But adoption isn't the best option for everybody.

An example: A high school friend of mine got pregnant in college. Her mother, a staunch pro-life Catholic (I'm Catholic too, by the way), convinced my friend that she should have the baby and put it up for adoption. Although it was not what she truly wanted to do, my friend bowed to her mother's wishes and had the baby. This was 7 years ago, and the girl has had severe emotional problems ever since. Carrying a child for 9 months and then giving her up was too much for that sensitive 19 year old girl to handle and she has not been the same person since. Even her pro-life mother now admits that it was not in her daughter's best interests to have the child.

Now, I'm sure that pro-life folks can give me twice as many examples as I have to justify their beliefs. But here's one more before I close.

My boyfriend's mother planned to abort him. She and her husband had married young and already had one child. When she found out she was pregnant again (just a few months after her first child was born) she was very upset. She was worried about how they would provide for two small children at that point in their lives. They weren't living in a space to accommodate another child and couldn't afford to move into a larger house. Her husband wasn't making much money and their marriage wasn't doing very well. She was convinced that having an abortion was the best thing to do. Her husband talked her out of it and my boyfriend was born.

I love him dearly, and I'm glad that his mother changed her mind. :) But, if you ask my boyfriend, he'll tell you without hesitation that he completely understands the way his mother felt and, even though he is obviously happy that she decided to go through with her pregnancy, he still feels that having a child isn't the best thing for everyone. He feels that every person's situation is different, and what is ideal for one is not always ideal for another. He refuses to judge someone on the choices they make and for that reason he is staunchly pro-choice.

Personally, I'd like to have every pro-lifer get pregnant unexpectedly one time and see how quickly some of their positions change. I personally have seen it happen twice in the past year alone. Once to a parent who suddenly found out her daughter was pregnant and the second time to a girl friend who, whenever the abortion topic was addressed, always made the comment, "well those girls are just being irresponsible... I would never be stupid enough to get in that position in the first place." (Unfortunately, there's never a dunce cap around when you need it. :rolleyes: )

I'll close for now because this is getting rather long. I hope no one takes anything I've said as a "flame". However, like I said in the beginning, I feel very strongly about this issue and I get rather emotional about it. I understand that others do also. It's just so easy for people to stand around and judge others when they haven't been in the position themselves.

[DukeBlue]

Pro-choice all the freaking way.

I'm webmaster for Duke's Students for Choice, I'm a member of NARAL, Planned Parenthood's Choice Actiuon Network, Feminist Majority Foundation, People for the American Way...

This is my passion. This is my issue. This is my body. I am PRO-CHOICE.

[UMgirl]

Truthfully, if i got pregnant unexpectedly, Id have it or put it up for an open adoption. As you can see Im kind of passionate about this also in a since, cuz I keep on writing. I really dont like it when I hear woman say its my body...true it is but, and this is how I put it to myself, it wasnt just my body that was there that night and i wasnt saying its mine and you cant tell me otherwise or whatever either. Probably saying the opposite (dont mean to be blunt).

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by UMgirl
Truthfully, if i got pregnant unexpectedly, Id have it or put it up for an open adoption.

UMgirl,

I admire you for saying that. I really do. But in doing so you kind of emphasized my point.

If you got 100 unmarried women together in a room and asked them what they would do if they found themselves pregnant unexpectedly, the vast majority -- probably 90% -- would answer the same way you did. People are so quick to say, "If I got pregnant, I'd have it." And I have no doubt that, at that particular time, they staunchly mean what they say. Yet there's NO WAY to prove that statement until it truly happens to you. It's so easy to say, but 100 times harder to do. That's why many times when women find themselves in that unwelcome position, their minds change faster than you can blink. And that's why I don't think that someone should be able to make a blanket statement like that and call themselves pro-life unless they have actually walked in the shoes of a pregnant woman.

UMgirl, if next month you get pregnant and still decide to keep the baby -- and firmly believe that it is the best decision for you and your child - then I APPLAUD you, wholeheartedly, for standing up for your convictions! :)

However, I just don't feel that anyone really earns the right to protest abortion until they have the unfortunate opportunity of being faced with the decision themselves.

[DukeBlue]

Hell, I said that myself until the condom broke, I had to take the morning-after pill, and my period was a week late...nothing like spending a sleepless week sobbing into a pillow and wondering if your life is over to make you think.

[hocnsoc81]

I am pro-life and I do not agree with blowing up abortion clinics!

[UMgirl]

Ill admitt I had (even though a comdom was used but I missed my period for 2 months...turns out just stressed) a scare and until out it was neg., the only thing I thought about was figuring out a way to say school while having a child if it was pos. I completely see and understand your point DZ but if we werent allowed to speak or view our opinion until we an experience with that something, then I believe we'd live in silence, not really knowing anything. I think everyone has a right to have their voice heard, but do it without extremes.

[Sue_XO]

I am Pro Choice and even have volunteered at the clinics in walking the girls to the door past the protestors. I have been pushed, shoved, threatened and my face screamed into while ugly pictures are shoved up to my eyes of unborn fetus.

For me, I am not into the facts and statistics - I just don't think anyone deserves the scare/fright tactics that come about and I will help protect until things change.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by UMgirl
I completely see and understand your point DZ but if we werent allowed to speak or view our opinion until we an experience with that something, then I believe we'd live in silence, not really knowing anything. I think everyone has a right to have their voice heard, but do it without extremes.

This is a really good discussion, UMgirl. Your last comments are thought-provoking! :) I agree - everyone does have a right to their opinions, and should be allowed to express them. There is a time and place for that, though, and I think that the act of FORCING an opinion on others (i.e. protesting at an abortion clinic, taking steps to get anti-abortion laws passed) is one of the "extremes" that you mentioned.

To me, it's fine for people to discuss their viewpoints with others, and to debate the pros and cons of each side. But make sure that you're talking about it with someone who wants to hear it.

Those women walking into the abortion clinics have enough on their minds without having to listen to cries of "murderer" and "slut", or having to worry about the fact that the clinic they are visiting might be the next site of a deranged pro-lifer's violence.

And for someone to try to take away a woman's right to have an abortion -- to me -- is a step too far, also. Maybe abortion isn't an option for some people. Maybe they have strong feelings about those who choose to have abortions. But don't infringe on those who do by working to erase the legislation that protects a woman's right to care for her body in a way that she sees fit. That's just inflicting a narrow view of morality onto everyone.

For the record, I am pro-choice but I am not pro-abortion. I do not feel like abortion clinics should be used as the sole means of birth control for women, and I don't agree with women who use no birth control whatsoever and get pregnant over and over, knowing that abortions are available to help them out. However, it's not my place to judge those women or criticize their decision which is why I'm not going to play God and preach to them. And I simply don't feel like anyone else should either.

[ZTAngel]

I am pro-choice. I don't believe that the government nor protestors have any right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body.
I will never forget when, about a year ago, I ran into an old friend of mine back at home. We had lost contact with each other after middle school. When her parents died in a car accident, she went from one foster home to another. Got into some bad drugs and was in and out of jail. She was a mess. She told me about how she had just gotten an abortion. Although she has since tried to get her life back in order with a part-time job at a retail store and she was going to junior college, she said she wasn't ready to have a child. Her reason why, "I hardly have the means to support myself nontheless a child. I ruined my own life. Why do that to my child?" Adoption was not an option for her. She couldn't bear the thought that there was someone out there who was biologically hers but belonged to another family. Also,her job entailed standing on her feet for 8 hours which something she could not do towards the last 3 months of pregnancy. For three months, she would have no source of income. She said that abortion was the best thing she ever did. She also said that if she kept the child, she would not be able to care for it 100% and the government would take the child from her and put it in a foster home....just as she was.
Maybe an abortion is not right for all people but it was for her. A girl who had already been through so much and was finally piecing her life back together did not need to go through it all over again.
If I were pregnant, I'm not sure what I would do. Pregnancy, although a beautiful thing, can be so scary for someone who is, quite frankly, a child herself. You never know what you would do until you're in a situation like that. And that is why I believe that every woman should have the option to have abortion if she so chooses.

[BrownEyedGirl]

I think my main belief about abortion is that it is just that - a belief of mine. What I feel and believe can (although it isn't) be proclaimed to the world, but I don't feel that it's my right to force my (mainly pro-life) views on the world. My morals and beliefs are mine alone, and I do not feel everyone should be forced to hold the same beliefs that I do. For that reason, while I consider myself pro-life, I do not think it is a bad thing for the government to have its current laws which allow legal abortions.

I do however, have issues with people who use abortion as a form of contraception or who condone partial birth abortions (that just makes me ill...) for non-medically critical pregnancies. Uch. I also have big problems with 'pro-lifers' who pick and choose when they support life. If you are pro-life, you should be pro ALL life...not just for fetuses. That means abortion doctors, too! Using violence to express your pro-life beliefs is twice as wrong as any acts you are protesting!! I am pro-life all around - I believe it's best not to have an abortion (if possible) and not to promote capital punishment either.

One thing I feel the need to emphasize, though, is that NO ONE things abortion is a 'good thing'. It's a choice reserved for people who feel they have no other options, people who are sad or scared. I doubt anyone walks away from a choice to abort skipping out of the clinic. It's a decision people should take seriously, but a decision they should have the right to make, even if people don't agree with it.

[Eirene_DGP]

Originally posted by greek girlie


It takes 24-48 hours to for an egg to be fertilized. If immediate medical attention is sought the uterus can be flushed so the sperm and egg actually never meet. This is a little known fact and doctors don't usually tell victims about it. This prevents pregnancy-obviously. It can take a day or two of recovery because of the dilation but that would be much better that the emotional trauma of what to do about a prenancy.



get down off that soapbox

Thanks for clarifying Greek Girlie :D I think some people missed my point.

[amycat412]

I completely agree with AggieAXO's stance on this. I am pro-choice. What choice would I make in that situation? Well it would depend on the situation. When I was in my 20's absolutely no way would I have even been able to handle a pregnancy, let alone a child. The older i get, the more I think I could and would have the child. But it is irresponsible to bring a child into this world that you are emotionally and financially unprepared for. I also believe strongly in a woman's right (a couple's right) to choose what is right for her own body.

That said, abortion is not a form of birth control and I am appalled that it is used as such by some people. Take responsibility for your own life and your own body, and if you cannot be mature enough to use birth control, you should not be having sex.

If this country went so far as to take away a woman's right to a lega l abortion-- what makes you think abortions would stop? They wouldn't, but instead women would go back to the "back-alley" and dangerous abortions they sought out before Roe v. Wade... And women would die.

Everyone is entitled to their view. But it is just that. Their view. Do not tell me what I can and cannot do with my body.

OK, getting down off my soapbox.

[justamom]

dzrose, if I may share the other side. In 1971 there were 5 of us who came to school as virgins. (Of course there were more, I'm refering to our circle) Within 2 years 3 had had an abortion. It was illegal then, and the risk was high. These girls NEVER got over it, never... They have since married-one has died but at those moments when you are just talking, it has been mentioned.
It's tough either way.

As far as the government not being able to have control over the body of a woman, why do we place more value on the "spotted owl" or the habitat of the snail darter than we do a human life?
If you think about it-I KNOW YOU WILL HATE ME FOR SAYING THIS-
a lot of this boils down to morality and premarital sex- kids having sex without the sense to protect themselves or knowing what to do if something does occur, young adults getting tanked OR swept up in the moment. Haven't you heard, it's the nice girls who get pregnant. There will always be those situations like dzrose mentioned, where they thought they were doing everything right, but by far the greatest number of abortions do not reflect that scenario.

Picture someone taking a sack full of puppies and drowing them.
Imagine taking your female baby and throwing it down the well, or taking the placenta from the late term aborted baby and selling it for food or hair products.
At 6 weeks, a baby will feel pain. Pain from a decision made by the very person who should give her life to protect him. Which of the above situations causes you the greater "discomfort"?

That's about all I have to say on the subject. I hope and pray no one finds themselves in this life altering situation. No matter what you woud decide, it would have a profound affect on the rest of your life.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by justamom
No matter what you woud decide, it would have a profound affect on the rest of your life.

This is perhaps the truest and most profound statement any of us have made thus far.

Whether you choose to have the unplanned baby, or choose to abort the unplanned baby...Neither decision is easy and each will have a profound impact on the rest of your life.

However, pro-choice--is a right to choose, that's all. I am not advocating abortion for abortion's sake. All I, and I think most pro-choicers are advocating is the right--the freedom--to do what you feel is best for you and your situation. Some of us would choose life. Some would not. But it is our choice.

[AOIIBrandi]

I am 100% pro-choice. To me choice means just that a woman or a couple should have the right to make the best decision for them at the time. Does this mean that I would choose abortion for myself? At this stage in life no, but 6 or 7 years ago - probably.

For all the women out there who think that they could go through 9 months of pregnancy and place the baby up for adoption I applaud you. But, seriously think about what would happen immediately after the birth when you get to hold the baby for that short amount of time. Is adoption still something you think you can live with? I also think that adopting out is hard on the biological mother and/or father and you also have to consider that it will probably be hard on the adoted child. One day, no matter how great the adoptive parents are, they will probably go seeking their biological parents if only to get a since of who they truely are. - Carnation you probably could add a lot to this, as my only experience is with my old college roommate who was adopted. Adding to that my roommate was told by her adoptive parents that if she went looking for the biological ones that she would be disowned and not welcome in their house anymore. Nice huh?

A few other reasons for being pro-choice are that as long as abortion is legal society has a far better chance of these women going into a clinic and getting proper medical treatment. Think about all the back alley abortions and coathangers you heard about when abortion was illegal. Also, as long as we continue to close our eyes and ears and preach nothing but abstinance in schools how are we to expect that children will learn that there are many different reliable birth control methods, other than hoping their parents will have the guts to have a straight forward talk with them?

This may not sound like a great reason, but one of the biggest reasons I am pro-choice is because someone made a big deal out of a T-shirt I was wearing when I was 15. I was a cheerleader and we had people donate shirts for us to wear to cheerleading camp. One of our classmates father's was a politician and he donated shirts. I was wearing his shirt at the vacation bible school I was teaching at, and one of the ladies went to my mother and told her I had to change my shirt because the man was pro-choice. I was 15 didn't know what his political veiws were, and didn't care. I liked the shirt. My mom didn't appreciate the woman either, but in the interest of peace she brought me another shirt. Too bad I can't find the woman now to let her know that her strong armed tactics only served to shape my views against her.

Sorry this was long, but wanted to get it all out...

[kimmykimmy]

I can speak from experience.

and I am by no means making light of having an abortion. However, "profound" hit me hard. I think having an abortion to some people isn't as "profound" as some may think.

Please don't understand me. It's a decision I wouldn't want anyone to have to make but having an abortion for some people is the only decision and the best and the right decision to make.

I just don't think some women are thinking about their abortion everyday or walking down the street wondering "what if." I don't think some woman are devastated by the choice they made.

Adult, mature, republican, responsible, educated, lovely people in monogamous committed relationships have abortions all the time. Married women have abortions.

Condoms break. And the pill fails.

I don't think that abortion should be a form of birth control, i.e., it gives a woman an excuse to have sex while in the back of her mind she is thinking, "I can always have an abortion if I get pregnanct" but I thank God everyday they are legal and safe.

I could go on and on and on and on but I won't. but I could!

[damasa]

Originally posted by Eirene_DGP


Thanks for clarifying Greek Girlie :D I think some people missed my point.

No, I never missed your point, you just didn't include the 24-48 hour fact. That was something I did not know, and also something you did not add.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by justamom
dzrose, if I may share the other side. In 1971 there were 5 of us who came to school as virgins. (Of course there were more, I'm refering to our circle) Within 2 years 3 had had an abortion. It was illegal then, and the risk was high. These girls NEVER got over it, never... They have since married-one has died but at those moments when you are just talking, it has been mentioned.
It's tough either way.

Justamom, I respect your beliefs, and you do bring up some good points here. I realize that the decision to have an abortion is a very serious one, and is something that must be weighed carefully. You're absolutely right - It is DEFINITELY tough, either way. However, did these women you speak of ever say that they regretted their decisions -- that they could look back on the situation and say, without a shadow of a doubt, that they could have cared for their child well and provided him or her with everything that the baby would have needed back then? That they would have been able to be as good a mother back then as they would in later years?

I can tell you that none of my friends regret the decision they made. Of course, if you ask, they will mention that they think about how their lives would have turned out if they had decided to go through with the pregnancy. But there is not a single woman who has expressed regret to the point where if she could turn back the clock she would change her mind. All of them are content with the road they took and not a one feels that she made a poor decision...except for the girl who gave her baby up for adoption at the direction of her mother instead of following her own wishes and having an abortion.

Originally posted by justamom
As far as the government not being able to have control over the body of a woman, why do we place more value on the "spotted owl" or the habitat of the snail darter than we do a human life?

The difference is simple: the spotted owl is an animal that is in danger of becoming extinct. That's why our government has passed laws to protect it. The human being is nowhere near extinction. If it were, then there probably would be laws against abortion because we would be doing everything in our power to keep the human race going.

Originally posted by justamom
If you think about it-I KNOW YOU WILL HATE ME FOR SAYING THIS- a lot of this boils down to morality and premarital sex- kids having sex without the sense to protect themselves or knowing what to do if something does occur, young adults getting tanked OR swept up in the moment. Haven't you heard, it's the nice girls who get pregnant. There will always be those situations like dzrose mentioned, where they thought they were doing everything right, but by far the greatest number of abortions do not reflect that scenario.

I don't hate you for saying that at all! :) I really do understand what you're saying. However, you can't pass a law that allows one group of people to have an abortion and not allow the others. And if you ban all the abortions, there will be many, many women (including nice girls who got caught in a bad situation) who suffer because their right to choose has been stolen from them.

Originally posted by justamom
Picture someone taking a sack full of puppies and drowing them. Imagine taking your female baby and throwing it down the well, or taking the placenta from the late term aborted baby and selling it for food or hair products. At 6 weeks, a baby will feel pain. Pain from a decision made by the very person who should give her life to protect him. Which of the above situations causes you the greater "discomfort"?

Quite honestly, the puppies and the female baby, who have both experienced their first unassisted breaths of life, cause me the greatest discomfort. Let me explain why I feel this way. First, a 6 week old embryo is so tiny that I find it difficult to even think of it in terms of a baby. Pro-life protesters place such emphasis on the pain that an aborted fetus suffers. They try to paint a picture of a child that is being tortured to death, but the truth is that any pain the fetus feels is so quick that it barely begins before it ends. A two year old child who falls off her tricycle and scrapes her knee will feel more trauma than a fetus who is scarcely the size of a butter bean.

But aside from all that, I personally feel that if a pregnant woman knows that she doesn't have the means to give her child the quality of life that it deserves, then it is better for that unborn embryo, who has never taken a breath or experienced real life outside the womb, to feel a moment of pain rather than a lifetime of unhappiness and suffering.

[aggieAXO]

DZRose I have agreed with 10000% of what you have said so far.

JAM,

Let me say that I respect your views totally and everyone's opinion on here. Like I have said in my earlier posts I abort puppies and kittens all the time-while I am not thrilled about this I have to think of that puppy or kitten's potential life-roaming the streets, being hungry or standing in a shelter waiting to be euthanized while there are 100's of other dogs and cats barking and meowing-that is very traumatizing. I only bring up the animals b/c of your comparison in your earlier posts, most people say we can't compare humans and animals as humans are way more valueable (I am not sure I believe that). As far as throwing puppies into a well-this does happen but less so in this day and age b/c we have euthanasia-I would much rather euthanize a puppy then think of them suffering in their life or drowning in a well, just like I would much rather abort a fetus rather than child suffer like the ones I see on TV that have no food or clothes-was it fair to bring those children into this world??? If you want to compare animals in this scenario then I guess we need to include the suffering that pigs and chickens go through daily to feed us.
What Dzrose said is correct about endangered animals-we NEED to protect these guys because they are being eliminated-they willbe totatly gone, Humans are in NO WAY of becoming extinct in fact it is the opposite we are overpopulating.

[AggieDZ]

AggieAXO,
I'm proud to call you a fellow Ag!
Good bull!
and to dzrose, I'm proud to call you sister!
DZLAM!

[justamom]

I can tell you that none of my friends regret the decision they made.

What a sad, sad statement.

[ErikaXO]

I was militantly pro-choice until I became a mother. Having been through 3 pregnancies and had numerous ultrasounds and a miscarriage, I am now pro-life in almost all circumstances. I was amazed to find out how quickly that lifeless little ball of cells becomes a real baby that moves, feels, has a beating heart. I think late-term "partial birth" abortions are flat-out murder. I guess I can see both sides, having been on both sides, but having felt that little baby moving inside me and having seen a 7 week fetus with its little beating heart on the screen has totally changed my opinion. There are so many people out there waiting to adopt babies, so many who want children and can't have them.....I have a really hard time with the idea that the "inconvenience" factor of going through with the birth and putting the baby up for adoption justifies choosing abortion.

[DukeBlue]

That's interesting. Most women I know who have had children became even more pro-choice after doing so, once they realized how huge and life-changing pregnancy and motherhood really are, and came to the view that they're not things anyone should be forced or guilted into.

[aephi alum]

I am pro-choice, with reservations.

If a woman was raped or molested, or if her life is endangered by her pregnancy, she should absolutely have an abortion if she wishes.

If a couple really isn't prepared (financially, emotionally, etc) to raise a child, and IF they were legitimately trying to prevent pregnancy and their birth control method failed for some reason, then they should be free to terminate the pregnancy if they wish.

If a couple just wants an abortion because the baby will be a girl and they want a boy (or vice versa) then that is not a legitimate reason.

Partial-birth abortions are horrific. If you haven't figured out by the time you're that close to delivery, that you don't want the baby, then deal with it. From what I understand, partial-birth abortions are about as uncomfortable as childbirth, so if that's the motivating factor, have the baby and put it up for adoption.

Personally... I'm married. My husband and I don't plan to have children for another couple of years. However, if I were to become pregnant, I would have the baby, because I could never live with myself if I had an abortion and then later couldn't get pregnant. I wouldn't feel comfortable having an abortion, but that's my choice. That is not a choice I'd try to impose on anyone else. That's the whole idea of being pro-choice.

[volgirl2376]

Im Pro-Choice - because I dont know what I would do if I was to have an unexpected pregnancy. I am 99% sure I would keep my baby, bc I do believe it is completely wrong to have an abortion, and against my faith...but there are certain situations that I would be unsure of (like rape).

That does not mean however, that I would force my opinions on anyone else. I think its up to the individual to make their own decision.

[AlphaChiGirl]

I waited for a while to reply to this, partially because of finals, partially because I wanted to make a coherent response.

I'm "pro-life" for myself. I know at this stage in my life, although I'm a student, I would have the baby. I'm financially secure. I have supportive parents, and I'm in a committed relationship with someone who feels the same way about this situation as I do. If any of those factors weren't in the situation, maybe my decision would be different. I know that if I got pregnant next month, it would be as a result of my own carelessness and irresponsibility, and if I'm "woman" enough to be sexually active, I'm "woman" enough to deal with the consequences of having a baby.

On the other hand, I'm VIRULENTLY pro-choice for the rest of the population, and I have done and will continue to do EVERYTHING in my power to assure that the right to reproductive freedom in any way, shape, or form, is preserved for years to come. Making sure the Bush administration doesn't chip away at Roe v. Wade is something I've become devoted to ever since the Florida election controversy was over. I have friends who, due to their individual situation, having the baby wasn't the right decision, and I support their right to make that decision. I just know that it's something I could never do. I would sooner sacrifice a few years of freedom than sacrifice the life of someone I had a part in creating.

[Tom Earp]

I beleive there are ways to prevent these semi blessed events, birth control, spading and neutoring!;)

If you cannot pay the price for the band, then dont go to the dance!

[damasa]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
I beleive there are ways to prevent these semi blessed events, birth control, spading and neutoring!;)



Yes, and birth control also fails.

As for being spade or neutored, what if someone wants to have children later in life? Better yet, those kind of operations aren't cheap.

d

[G8Ralphaxi]

I think my own beliefs are best described as "extremely reluctantly pro-choice."

I can totally understand why a woman who was pregnant as a result of rape, incest, etc. would not want to go through with the pregnancy. I cannot fault her decision.

Also, when the mother's life is in danger or when the baby is so severly messed up that it will probably die anyway, again, I cannot fault anyone for making this decision.

These are, for me, the simple cases.

The harder ones are usually economic or "oh no!"

With both scenarios I can sympathize, but in both cases it just breaks my heart. Nine months is a long time - physically, financially, emotionally, mentally. I have never been pregnant so I cannot even imagine how complicated and confusing it must be to be in such a situation.

There are SOOOO many nice people that are desperate for a child of their own that would love to adopt a baby. There are waiting lists years long. It's so sad that one woman would do anything to NOT be pregnant and maybe just one block over lives another woman that would do anything to BE pregnant.

Of course, again, I've never been in this situation, so I just don't think I have the right to judge anyone. But it just makes me so SAD, the whole thing.

What really ticks me off are the "repeat offenders" - the women who are careless over and over with their protection. Not, oops my method failed this one time, but geez, here we go again. What's especially awful is how hypocritical some people can be - I found out recently that my soon-to-be-ex roommate had an abortion a couple years ago. A couple months ago when she and our other roommate and I were discussing birth control, she told us that "P____ pulls out." :eek: HELLO! The girl is 26 years old now, shouldn't she know better? Plus who knows what she was doing with that other boyfriend to protect herself. Now also keep in mind that this charming girl likes to preach to other people on what horrible sinners they are - told me I was "slutty" for dancing with a guy friend at a bar :rolleyes: and told our other roommate that by reading Harry Potter to her 10 year old brother she was "endangering his soul"! :eek:

The problem, as someone already stated, is that there really isn't a way to screen out the unlucky ones from the careless and stupid ones.

I don't think it's unfair to require a short waiting period - i.e. maybe 24 hours tops. Go home and sleep on it. Here's some fair unbiased information about your options, risks for both the surgical procedure and risks for carrying a pregnancy to term. Emotional issues that might confront you if you chose abortion,m adoption or keeping your baby. Think about it and come back tomorrow and we will help you with your decision.

On that note, I do NOT like any of the proposals that force consent from some third party other than the woman. It's her decision to make, and while I know how I hope she decides, it is ultimately her decision. Even the parents with minor daughters - it would be absolutely horrible for some poor girl to be driven to seek a dangerous illegal abortion because she can't face her parents. In some really tragic cases, she may face abuse at home or someone at home may even be the father.

I also think that all the meanies who are harrassing the poor women going to the clinics and threatening or attacking those who work there need to shut the heck up and get real lives. :mad:

Again, back to my main point - abortions are SAD. I would love for politicians to not feel that they have to swing so far to one side. It seems like all we hear are "Abortions all the time on demand!" or "It's a sin! No abortions ever!"

Just once I would like to hear a politician say that while they realize that they shouldn't interfere in someone else's personal choice, the whole thing makes them really sad and they really wish there was a better option.

...ok, enough of the soapbox...

[MaryMayXO]

I am pro- life...all the way, for various reasons. And I am very passionate about this too!

I was raised knowing that I have to take responsibility for my actions. I knew, even as a child, that there would be tons of circumstances when I would have to choice on many things- and most of the time there would be consequences to those decisions. I have just learned to apply this in every aspect of my life.

Basically, I believe that you make a CHOICE- to have sex- knowing full well you can become pregnant. If you have sex, be ready to take responsibilty- we're talking about a baby- a human being. I just can't fathom abortion being the answer- for many reasons. I don't think I could live with myself, knowing I caused any pain to MY child. And I have known women (one very close to me) who've had abortions- and it totally is hard on them. It's something you have to deal with every day. It kinda hits close to home too. My real sister got pregnant- and was considering terminating the pregnancy- but in the end, she decided she couldn't go through with it. Now, I have the sweetest nephew ever. I figure that if you get pregnant, and for whatever reason, you're not ready for being a parent, choose adoption. There are so many women who can't have kids.

[SparkliiQTMTSU]

I am totally against abortion unless there are certain serious cases in which a girl was raped or something like that, other than that I believe that if you are going to choose to do the deed you are definitly choosing the responsibility that comes along with it. I do not believe that just because you were young or you "made a mistake" that you should take another innocent human being's life. They dont deserve that.
I have many more feelings on this issue but Im getting sleepy and dont wanna write alot.
Nicholi

[aggieAXO]

I just wanted to say thank you to those that are pro-life but still don't think the government should step in and demand all of us be pro-life. Thank you as you make me feel that it is my body and my choice and hopefully this will always be protected.

While I am reading everyone' s posts this AM I keep seeing people mentioning the adults, but i can't help to bring up that if people are in these situations the baby who is born is also in the situation. When making this decision I am sure most women do not take it lightly, I can't help but think they are not only think about their situation but also the kind of life they would or could provide for a child. It is not just a few years of freedom you give up-it is a lifetime of commitment. The commitment becomes less when the child becomes an adult but I have seen what a huge commitment children require and if you are not financially sound or do not have a significant other than that commitment becomes very difficult. I was listening to the radio on my way home from work today and there was a mother on the radio-she just had her third child, just got divorced this year, has no job, no support from her husband and now her kids are going to have nothing for christmas-no christrmas dinner, no toys, no clothes, nothing-that breaks my heart. I would rather someone have an abortion than put a child through a lifetime of hunger or hurt. I wish everyone was responsible like the people on this thread but many are not-that is reality.

BTW does anyone have any statistics on adoption, my understanding from various news reports is that there is a waiting list for caucasian babies but there are not enough homes for minority babies and unfortunately many of these end up in foster care or an orphanage-is this correct?

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by justamom
I can tell you that none of my friends regret the decision they made.

What a sad, sad statement.

JAM,

It seems like you took one statement of a very long post out of context a bit. :confused: Just to clarify, my complete statement was the following:

I can tell you that none of my friends regret the decision they made. Of course, if you ask, they will mention that they think about how their lives would have turned out if they had decided to go through with the pregnancy. But there is not a single woman who has expressed regret to the point where if she could turn back the clock she would change her mind. All of them are content with the road they took and not a one feels that she made a poor decision...except for the girl who gave her baby up for adoption at the direction of her mother instead of following her own wishes and having an abortion.

I am not saying that these women didn't debate their decision to have an abortion long and hard before they took action. And I'm not saying that they never think about what having a child might have been like. All I'm saying is that they can look back on their decision -- still today -- and feel certain that they made the right choice, for themselves and their unborn child.

They were in NO position to have those children at that stage in their lives, and they were intelligent enough to realize it and responsible enough to do something about it. They have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty about, and NO ONE should try to lay blame or guilt at their feet, especially strangers who know little to nothing about their situations. That's the problem I have with pro-life protesters. They know absolutely nothing about the women to whom they are making disparaging comments, so who gave them the right to judge? The answer is: no one.

[KarenC725]

My views on the issue have changed dramatically over the years. I've had two very close friends go through an abortion. I also have a cousin who had 10 miscarriages before being able to take a baby to term. Myself, well, I have a condition that may mean I can't have kids.

Anyway, for me personally, I couldn't do it. I cannot make that decision for others though, and dont' think its appropriate that white haired old men on capital hill should have a say in it either. Its a personal choice, so I guess I'm pro-choice.

I don't condone having multiple abortions (like my old roommate did) or using it as a method of birth control.

[UMgirl]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
I beleive there are ways to prevent these semi blessed events, birth control, spading and neutoring
Originally posted by Damasa
Yes, and birth control also fails

Would like to say thank you and your welcome to the person who thanked us pro-lifers that believeeven though we dont agree with it, its a persons choice and that we are not trying to force opnions on people. Not all of us are psycho's :). Thats first.

How I have to agree with Earp, yes it does fail, but you can always double up (pill and condom, as I said before, but NEVER use two condoms, cuz ha ha it rips quicker and easier, learned that in 7 grade health). If both fail, call me, and you can say I told you so a million times and tell me to shut it ;)

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by aggieAXO
I just wanted to say thank you to those that are pro-life but still don't think the government should step in and demand all of us be pro-life. Thank you as you make me feel that it is my body and my choice and hopefully this will always be protected.

I agree with aggieAXO! Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread so far. I think all of us, no matter what stance we have on this issue, have handled this discussion like level-headed adults and I really do appreciate that. If everyone else in the good old USA would do the same, we'd all be a little better off! :)

[DukeBlue]

I know personally more than one woman who fell pregnant using the pill AND condoms. It happens, and it happens more often than most people think. Don't even get me started on the fact that some women can't take the pill or other hormonal contraceptives. :-P I can't, for reasons I won't delve into here.

And frankly, I'm not sure if I EVER want to have children, and I use birth control religiously, but I'm not so sure about not having children that I'm ready to get "fixed." And even if I was, good luck trying to find a doctor willing to do that to a woman under 30 who's never had children...and even then it's difficult.

[justamom]

dzrose, I don't want to get in a shouting match over this as I respect ALL your posts, past and present. I am sure I will find several future posts by you that I applaud. I was a tad put off as you took every paragraph I posted and argued every point. (or so it seemed) When I read that statement, yes, it hit me hard as I can remember a dog I hit on a road and STILL "regret" I couldn't have done something to prevent it.

Nothing in this WORLD will convince one side or the other that their opinion is wrong. As passionately as one can argue that "It's MY body", others can argue NO, you're talking about TWO bodies, yours and a defenseless baby and YES, it IS a baby, make no mistake.

My examples of the government were not to imply I think the government should control or pass laws, it was merely an example of the value some people place on animals as compared to humans. Who posted-we have to protect the endangered species...there are too many people as it is..."Now, I'm sorry, but that is just "out there"-comparing a human to an ANIMAL!

Maybe it is my religous upbringing, maybe it's because I had an ultrasound during pregnancy, maybe it's because I believe from the moment of conception there is a soul. We are who we are and our beliefs are a reflection of our experieces.

As a finale note, because it's too disturbing to revisit this thread, I would like to say-
Freedom, sexual or otherwise comes with a price. Too bad some choose to make the baby pay for their own mistakes.

[DukeBlue]

Maybe I'm just a dirty stinking idealist, but I have a big problem with the idea of pregnancy and a child being used as a punishment for having sex.

[KSig RC]

Let's break it down to a few fundamental points, and see how we all differ in terms of definition:

1 - At what point does a "human life" begin? (JAM - now would be the time to provide cites for comments like "a baby feels pain at 6 weeks" . . . ) This is subjective, and is NOT strictly clinically defined - how do you all feel on the topic?


2 - To what extent can we extend 'beliefs' into 'legal authority'? This, quite simply, asks if you feel a law against abortion actually makes sense, from a moral and legal standpoint.


Open it up ladies and gentlemen . . .

[volgirl2376]

I think this question has been debated since day 1. Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs, and there will never be a day when everyone unites and comes to a conclusion when it comes to abortion. What an individual wants to do in their own life is their business...I have no right to dictate what they are allowed to do..and other people shouldnt try to dictate what I do in my own. There will never be agreement to issues like abortion or gun control..but thats the best part of our country...we are allowed to have different opinions.

[DukeBlue]

Amen to that. :)

[damasa]

Originally posted by UMgirl



Would like to say thank you and your welcome to the person who thanked us pro-lifers that believeeven though we dont agree with it, its a persons choice and that we are not trying to force opnions on people. Not all of us are psycho's :). Thats first.

How I have to agree with Earp, yes it does fail, but you can always double up (pill and condom, as I said before, but NEVER use two condoms, cuz ha ha it rips quicker and easier, learned that in 7 grade health). If both fail, call me, and you can say I told you so a million times and tell me to shut it ;)

One of my hometown buddies recently had a baby boy. His fiance is on the pill and he has used a condom every time they've had sex to avoid having a kid. So, it can still happen, and still does happen. Just a point of info.

now, shut up! (lol, just kidding about that, but i had to throw it in there :) )

d

[damasa]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Let's break it down to a few fundamental points, and see how we all differ in terms of definition:

1 - At what point does a "human life" begin? (JAM - now would be the time to provide cites for comments like "a baby feels pain at 6 weeks" . . . ) This is subjective, and is NOT strictly clinically defined - how do you all feel on the topic?


2 - To what extent can we extend 'beliefs' into 'legal authority'? This, quite simply, asks if you feel a law against abortion actually makes sense, from a moral and legal standpoint.


Open it up ladies and gentlemen . . .

To be quite honest, i do not know or have an opinion on when life begins. I would like to say that the human life begins when it is conceived, but i don't say that. This topic is a really confusing point because some consider it life at the point of conception, because life has been formed. Others argue that it doesn't begin at conception because the lifeform depends on the mother for survival. As does a newborn baby, or a 9 month old baby and so on.


d

[MaryMayXO]

Just a mom-
I totally agree with you!!! I love reading your posts!!!

:D

[DukeBlue]

It's a little different to depend on the mother by living inside of her body, feeding off the nutrients in her bloodstream, enlarging her organs and putting a strain on all of her major systems, as opposed to living outside of someone else's body and just needing the everyday things everyone does.

My view is sort of like this: Say your sister needs a kidney transplant. Sure, you have more than one kidney, it PROBABLY wouldn't kill you, and it would certainly be the altruistic thing to do, but - no one can legally force you to donate your kidney to someone else, no matter what. And I don't think anyone should be able to legally force any woman to basically donate her entire body to her fetus, even if for "only" nine months (but it's never "only" nine months...it's not like once you're done being pregnant the memory's erased or the result is out of sight and mind).

I'm talking about legality here. You can consider it right or wrong or WHATEVER, but to be able to legally force someone to do something - no. I think the KKK is abhorrent and I wish they'd disappear off the face of the Earth, but I'll defend to my death their right to say whatever they want. Because with every right comes some things we may not like, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected. With the right to free speech comes hate groups; with the right to medical privacy comes a woman's right to choose abortion. Like it or not.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Pro Choice.

[Enforcer00]

I'm Pro-choice. I would never tell someone that they couldn't do it, but I don't agree with women who use it as a method of birth control or late term abortions. I know someone who had one later on in her pregnancy and she almost died from it. :( With all that said who am I to tell any other woman what to do with their body, but I could never do it myself.

[KSigkid]

I'm definitely pro-choice. I think it's a personal choice for the woman, and that it's not up to me, the government, or anyone else to tell a woman whether she should keep a baby or not. Now, I'm not in favor of late-term abortions - I think the choice should be made early, and I think there are some very understandable reasons for making the choice early. However, I would never want to take away a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body. There's a lot more to how I feel with the issue, I could go on for a while about it, but that's where I'll leave it for now.

Collin

[newbie]

Personally I could not abort a fetus living inside of me, but I do think every woman should have a chance to decide for herself.

If I were in my own perfect world, though, adoption would replace every case of abortion, but I know it's not always possible that way.

[newbie]

Originally posted by damasa
Ok..there's a little more that I want to add to this.

If you choose pro-life, is that based on a personal decision or on a religious influence?

Why i ask this is because if it is based on a religious influence, do you favor the use of violence (killing doctors, blowing up clinics) in order to sway society to become pro-life. Because to me, it's ironic. How can one justify killing a doctor, or severly hurting others, in order to protect "pro-life." Taking away the life of one for the life of another is not pro-life, that's pro-violence if you ask me.

I am mostly pro-life (read the post that I just wrote for more info on that), but I am totally against bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors who perform such operations. I am against killing in general (well except for those who are criminals like Timothy McVeigh for example), and bombing clinics and killing doctors would go totally against my beliefs.

I think that that's just an immature, ineffective way to try to end abortion. Protests are one thing, bombing and murder are another...

[newbie]

Originally posted by UMgirl
Funny, Im mostly republican, pro-life and against the the death penalty. What are the odds of that.

I consider myself a "conservative Democrat" and am pro-life and in favor of the death penalty. Some people are like, "You sure you're a Democrat?" :p

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by DukeBlue
It's a little different to depend on the mother by living inside of her body, feeding off the nutrients in her bloodstream, enlarging her organs and putting a strain on all of her major systems, as opposed to living outside of someone else's body and just needing the everyday things everyone does.

My view is sort of like this: Say your sister needs a kidney transplant. Sure, you have more than one kidney, it PROBABLY wouldn't kill you, and it would certainly be the altruistic thing to do, but - no one can legally force you to donate your kidney to someone else, no matter what. And I don't think anyone should be able to legally force any woman to basically donate her entire body to her fetus, even if for "only" nine months (but it's never "only" nine months...it's not like once you're done being pregnant the memory's erased or the result is out of sight and mind).

I'm talking about legality here. You can consider it right or wrong or WHATEVER, but to be able to legally force someone to do something - no. I think the KKK is abhorrent and I wish they'd disappear off the face of the Earth, but I'll defend to my death their right to say whatever they want. Because with every right comes some things we may not like, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected. With the right to free speech comes hate groups; with the right to medical privacy comes a woman's right to choose abortion. Like it or not.

DukeBlue, good point about how a woman "donates" her body for 9 months. I could not imagine being FORCED into donating my body to nourish and carry and support something that I didn't want. That is absolutely terrifying! I cannot think of anything more inappropriate for the government or anyone else to force upon another person.

I don't want to say much on this topic, because this is one, like so many others, about which I am very, very opinionated, and my opinions are set and will never, ever change. I am absolutely, completely, 100% pro-choice. I don't think that there should be ANY government interference whatsoever involved in stifling a woman's choice to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason. There is nobody who should sit as judge and jury to tell a woman, well, you were raped, so it's okay, or you are just irresponsible, so now you have to suffer the consequences. Once governmental controls start being created, women will lose more and more control over their own bodies.

I remember reading the abortion cases in law school, and I would get SO mad. I am completely against things like parental notification and 24 hour waiting periods. If you are a good, supportive parent and your daughter gets pregnant, she probably will tell you. If she doesn't feel comfortable telling you, well, that is your fault, and you shouldn't expect the government to force her to do something that you have made her feel she can't. Waiting periods are an insult to women everywhere. What they are really saying is -- you are fragile, weak and stupid. Here, let me give you some information, and you go home and rest your pretty little, silly head and "think" about this for a while. That just steams me.

Women are powerful, and we need to remember that and stand up for our rights. My mom, bless her heart, is a republican but pro-choice. When I explain to her that putting a conservative republican (like W) in the white house will likely result in conservative supreme court justices which will likely result in a drastic change in the current law which would likely result in the elimination of a woman's right to choose in at least some states, her response is always, "Oh, that won't happen." It very well might, and as I always say (she thinks I'm nuts) -- oppression of one woman is oppression of ALL women, myself included.

[DukeBlue]

I agree with valkyrie 1000%. Our generation grew up when Roe was safe and sound, before the days of illegal abortions and the "Monday lines" of botched abortions outside of emergency rooms and all that came with it being outlawed, we were raised in a time when a woman's right to choose was a given, sometimes protested but never under serious threat - so many assume it will always be that way, just because it always was during our lives. People tell me I'm being paranoid or worrying about something that won't happen, but I can't be complacent when it comes to my rights, my civil rights, my right to control my own body and life and my right to medical privacy. Remember history, lest we repeat it.

[KappaStargirl]

I grew up in a staunch Republican household. Dad's been a fiscally conservative member of the NRA since 1955, and votes a straight Republican ticket. However, he and I are pro-choice for the same reason:

Thomas Jefferson once said "The government that governs best is the government that governs LEAST." I don't believe in the government telling me about a choice I can't or shouldn't have. I also wonder: If they start with outlawing abortion, where will they stop? Will developmentally disabled people be sterilized? What else won't I be able to do with my own body. I realize that's kind of an extreme example, but you get what I mean.

[Serenity]

Wow! I just read through all the posts. Great points on both sides. I also have to say, I learned some interesting facts. I never knew doctors could flush the uterus in the first 24-48 hours to prevent pregnancy.

I am pro-choice. I support the right of every woman to choose. When I was faced with an unplanned pregnancy, I chose to have my baby. Not because I thought abortion was murder or wrong or anything like that, but because I simply wanted my baby. I knew it was going to be hard, but I had the support of my honey who said he would support me either way and he did. I was scared of going home after graduating from college and having to tell my grandmother (she raised me) that instead of going to grad school as I planned, I was pregnant and moving to the Virgin Islands. But I did it. She didn't take it very well and didn't speak to me for MONTHS. But she got over it as most parents do.

What really bothers me is when a woman doesn't have an abortion because of all the reasons stated in some of the posts, but then she shoot drugs during the preganancy, neglects, abuses, and perhaps even murders her child later on because she just wasn't ready or was incapable of caring for the child. I know not all abuses occur because of this reason. However, deciding to have a baby is the EASY part believe it or not. Pregnancy, childbirth and the next 18 years (whether you raise the child or not) is the HARD part.

I'm not saying abortion is the answer to these scenarios. I'm not an idiot. However, I think it is wrong to bring a child into the world to be raised by unfit parents. But people do it EVERY DAY and others sit by and watch and don't say a word. Where are the rallies then?

[UMgirl]

OK, so we all agree that the government does not have the right to tell us what we can and cannot do to a certain extent, correct? OK this was brought up on Politically Incorrect one night with the whole abortion stance and think there is a valid point to it when you look deep into it. Im not saying its right or wrong, but think about it......

If we dont want the government saying what we can do with our bodies and etc, why is that we want the govern to step in and tell a man pay child support? Just like its our body, its his money. He's was basically trying to say that a man should have a equal say in what happens to the child, if the govern. is gonna tell him he has to pay for it. In a weird way I can see his point. :eek:

[DukeBlue]

But the thing is, biology makes it "unfair" - the woman will always have more say over what happens to a pregnancy simply because she's the one who is pregnant, she's the one doing the work of pregnancy and childbirth and probably most of the childrearing if she continues the pregnancy, so to give the man an equal say in that when all he did was ejaculate and she's the one going through nine months and birth and blah blah blah...the woman has to have more of a say simply because of nature.

[UMgirl]

no offense, but truthfully, I think thats kind of an unfair statement. To me it made it sound as if the man doesnt do anything at all except do his thing anf than go watch football for the next nine months and maybe speak to the woman for a min., when she says, hey im going into labor. It probably didnt mean to come of that way, but there are alot of man out there who do ALOT of work with helping their wives through a pregnancy. Yes, a woman does go through the 9 month term and does all the work during labor. but a woman wouldnt be in the position of getting pregnant in the first place if it wasnt for that sperm. I guess ofr the equal say thing, wouldnt you want it to be equal if it were the other way around if man had babies and women didnt? Also if we wanted to talk bio, majority of a childs traits/characteristics and etc come from the father. Alright im gonna stop, before I get on one my feminist wanting to be equal yet, things.

By the way Damasa, im zipping my lip just for you :D

[DukeBlue]

WTF? A child gets the same number of chromosomes from each parent.

And no, I didn't mean it to come out the way you said, and yes if it was the other way around I'd WANT it to be equal but you know what? That's pretty much impossible because of the biology. As much as a man may help out, he's not going to have to have the health risks of pregnancy and birth and whatnot. The decisionmaking as to what will happen to a pregnancy will always be at least 51%-49% in the woman's favor because of simple biology. Like it or not, you can't change that fact.

[DukeBlue]

Okay, I'm going to try to avoid this thread entirely from now on...this is the one issue that can make me see red like no other. It's what I'm most passionate about and honestly if I were to devote my life to a cause it would be the pro-choice one. So. To save myself further stress and lashing out and people and saying things I don't mean, I'm leaving. No one's mind will be changed, anyway.

[AlphaGamDiva]

ok, um...i am a little disheartened that no one here is pro-life...i understand the fact you don't want the government telling you what to do b/c i don't want anyone telling me what to do, either...but at the same time, i feel the government does have a responsibility to protect us...and why doesn't that include the innocent (!) lives of the unborn. i don't understand why people are always so ready to get rid of a part of themselves...if you were mature enough to do the deed, you are mature enough to carry the seed.

[aggieAXO]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
if you were mature enough to do the deed, you are mature enough to carry the seed.

again as said many times above, this would be ideal but I know many people that did the deed and are in noway responsible-that is reality. Do you really want them raising a child? I woudn't.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Please do not tell me that you think abortion is the only option for people who do not wish to keep their child...there are millions of people out there who WANT children and are unable to have them. These "irresponsible" individuals can put their child up for adoption, and in a lot of cases can even have their medical bills paid for if need be. All I'm saying is that the very least a pregnant couple can do if they do not want to keep it is to carry it to term, grant it life, and give it to someone who wants to raise it.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
Please do not tell me that you think abortion is the only option for people who do not wish to keep their child...there are millions of people out there who WANT children and are unable to have them. These "irresponsible" individuals can put their child up for adoption, and in a lot of cases can even have their medical bills paid for if need be. All I'm saying is that the very least a pregnant couple can do if they do not want to keep it is to carry it to term, grant it life, and give it to someone who wants to raise it.

You raise a valid point, but a friend of mine is a social worker who told me that *most* couples who are trying to adopt a child are very specific that they want an infant who is the same race they are and whose mother sought pre-natal care and leads a healthy, drug-free lifestyle. It is THOSE babies that people are jumping through hoops to adopt (not always of course, but this seems to be the norm). What about the children who don't fit this criteria? I am NOT saying that because these children are not easily adoptable that they are expendable or that they should be aborted (I do not personally endorse abortion), but I am just tired of hearing this same adoption argument over and over because there ARE plenty of babies and children out there who need good homes. They're just not the "chosen ones".

[AlphaGamDiva]

Right...and there ARE people out there wanting to give them those good homes. If no one adopts the crack addicted baby, does that mean the child was better off being aborted? What does "chosen ones" mean, anyway? I know a man who was never adopted, raised in an orphanage and he has lead a good, solid life...you can't rate someone's quality of life until they are given the opportunity to live. In other words, you can't say that just because someone was born into bad circumstances, that their whole life, things will be bad for them.

All I'm saying is...no one has the right to take the innocent life of another...not even its mother.

[KillarneyRose]

Right...and there ARE people out there wanting to give them those good homes.

Yes, I am aware of this. There is a couple in my church who adopted a now 4 year-old crack addicted baby and I have the utmost respect for them. This is not the norm, though.


If no one adopts the crack addicted baby, does that mean the child was better off being aborted?

No, I mentioned earlier that I am pro-life


What does "chosen ones" mean, anyway?

In the context of my last post, "chosen ones" refers to the babies that are not the ones people are flocking to adopt. See my previous post for criteria.


I know a man who was never adopted, raised in an orphanage and he has lead a good, solid life...you can't rate someone's quality of life until they are given the opportunity to live. In other words, you can't say that just because someone was born into bad circumstances, that their whole life, things will be bad for them.

This is true, but I never said otherwise. I was clarifying your statement that millions of people out there want to adopt children. That makes it sound like every, single child who is born will immediately be swooped up by a loving family and, sadly, that is not the case.

All I'm saying is...no one has the right to take the innocent life of another...not even its mother.

I agree with you on that point. But that is not all you're saying. You implied that every child that is conceived will end up being adopted if he/she is put up for placement. I wanted to set the record straight on that. I sincerely wish that were the case, but it isn't.

AlphaGamDiva, if you were counseling a pregnant, drug addicted woman, could you in good conscience tell her that if she has the child "millions of people" will be standing in line to adopt it? I know I couldn't. If you believe that women shouldn't have abortions, that's fine. But please don't base that argument on the premise that "millions of people" want to adopt. It is misleading.

[AlphaChiS2K]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
I know a man who was never adopted, raised in an orphanage and he has lead a good, solid life...you can't rate someone's quality of life until they are given the opportunity to live. In other words, you can't say that just because someone was born into bad circumstances, that their whole life, things will be bad for them.


For every one of those stories, there are hundreds that go the other way.

Have you ever experienced state run childcare? our foster care system in and of itself is atrocious... the system in Washington DC, our nation's CAPITOL, for crying out loud, is so dysfunctional that over a hundred children have died as a result of the failure of DC Social Services to properly keep uip on their cases. (I am 90% sure of this, but visit www.washingtonpost.com and do a search and it will bring up all the recent articles. There's one just about every week). Is it "morally responsible" to bring these children into the world, subject them to lives of abuse and poverty, only to have them be let down the the system that fought for their existence in the first place? What bright spots have these poor children had in their short lives?


DukeBlue- I am so grateful to you for articulating my thoughts on this issue exactly. You are a credit to my gender :)

All through our lives we are instructed on the message of self control: Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. This can be applied to all sides of the coin- to premarital sex as well as abortion and having a child.


One one hand, we can say that if you take the responsibility of sex, you accept all consequences that may go along with it. We all know that a good percentage of people engaging in intercourse- especially young people- are not well informed about the consequences that sex carries. I come from a mostly white upper class hometown, and I cannot count the number of people who had misinformation about sex. Sexual activity is a flood that will not easliy be dammed. When we ignore it, and preach abstinence instead of education (providing condoms and an open environment in which to facilitate conversationa nd question and answer), it's like saying "it will not get dark tonight." People are going to have premarital sex. Teenagers are going to get pregnant. And they will get abortions. Which is better- providing them with a safe, sanitary environment in which to have it sone, or leaving them to their own devices? Coat hangers? Back-alley butchers? How is that socially responsible?

Likewise, I believe that just because a woman is physically capable of having a child doesn't mean that she should. I like the analogy of donating one's body. If we are truly to argue that men and women should be equal in this respect, then what happens to the myriad of men who walk away from this responsibility? And let's be honest here... of the men that I've slept with, there are definitely some I would absolutely not consider as fathers of my children. To retain them as parents, to maintain that ever-constant connection through a child--- why? Am I to choose my sexual partners on the basis of "If I were to get pregnant, would he be a good father?" I don't understand that. My sexual life WILL NOT be dictated by the fact that I have a uterus and there is the possibility I could get pregnant. I am a separate person from my future children. They don't run my life (yet) :)).

Finally, I am pro-choice, but that does not mean pro-abortion. I am not sure that I could go through with having an abortion should I ever face that decision. Being pro-choice does not mean that you are in favor of across-the-board abortions. Just because you favor the choice doesn't mean you favor the act. You favor just that- the choice. Making abortions legal doesn't mean the YOU have to get one. It doesn't make a pro-life opinion null and void. You may still have your opinion and exercise it over your decisions. Pro-choice just means that other people have the right to exercise their own.

:: steps off soapbox::
::looks around at all the other soapboxes... there are lots::

phew. sorry. just had to get that off my chest.


wait, one more thing-

there have been several comments about women being raped and where abortion stands relevant to that. There was one comment saying something to the effect of "if a woman isn't responsible to get a medical exam, then she should have the baby." I literally have to clench my jaw about this. Rape is a horrifyingly traumatic thing. And it is not always a dark-alley, empty parking lot, stranger-in-a-hooded mask event. Most rapes occur at the hands of someone the victim knows. If there was an ambiguous night where there was too much alcohol (and I know we've ALL been there) and your friend crossed the line, are you so quick to cry rape and rush to the hospital? What if a woman was drugged and doesn't remember the event until days later(raises hand here)? Is it still her "irresponsibility" at fault? Or what about incest? When a girl is raped by her father/uncle/brother and is too intimidated to report it, is that irresponsible? THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES WITH RAPE TO CATEGORIZE IT. It is NEVER the vicitms fault. Don't begin to assume that you understand the emotional rollercoaster that follows such an act, and have the right to dictate a time frame for a woman to take appropriate action.

:::really steps off soapbox:::

[aggieAXO]

AlphGamDiva,

I admire you for your tenacity and would really like to hear some information about adoption. I know many people say all these children will be adopted-will they really? Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is and go adopt a child now? I know there are plenty out there RT AT THIS MOMENT that need a home-can you do this? People are so quick to say these things but then don't research the facts or help out by adopting. I wish that every child was adopted, how I wish this, but it does not happen.


Can anyone that thinks adoption is the answer give us some statistics I would really like to know.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by justamom
dzrose, I don't want to get in a shouting match over this as I respect ALL your posts, past and present. I am sure I will find several future posts by you that I applaud. I was a tad put off as you took every paragraph I posted and argued every point. (or so it seemed)

JAM,

Sorry that it took me a while to respond to your post. I wasn't near a computer during the holidays. :)

If you were put off by my response to your post, then I sincerely apologize. You posed two serious, thought-provoking questions in that post, and that's why I responded to them. I didn't realize that you intended the questions to be rhetorical.

You're right about my arguing the points that you made. I was, like you, offering my side of the issue and I felt like it would be easier to convey my ideas if I took your points one by one and commented on each of them individually.

Once again, I wasn't trying to be insulting. I was only countering your comments with questions that I found to be valid, just as you did in your post. I did not mean to offend you. I think you are a wonderful contribution to GC and I respect your thoughts although I may not always agree with them. :)

[AlphaGamDiva]

ok, i never meant to imply that all children put up for adoption will be taken home...i want to apologize early on if i have offended anyone b/c i only meant to express my opinion...i just now feel that my thoughts and ideals have been attacked b/c i had no footnotes to justify my belief that adoption is the better alternative.
i just think that because a woman does not want to keep her child, it does not mean she has to kill it, either. when a woman becomes pregnant, she has 3 options: to keep, to give up, or to abort. i do not understand why so many people decide upon the latter...there are millions of people out there wanting to adopt children. again, the exact number and statistics, i am sorry, but do not have. but i do know that there are people who are on waiting lists...and one can only assume that a waiting list implies that there is a demand for something there is not enough of. and yes, most of the people wanting to adopt a child want a neat and tidy white baby...and those are definitely in short supply. but that does not mean that the other children are any less significant, or wanted...or that anyone has the right to pre-determine whether the lives of the other children will be so horrible that we should take it upon ourselves to "save" them. AlphaChiS2K, i don't think it is any more "morally responsible" to take a life before it has a chance to live it. i was mentioning adoption as an alternative to abortion, that was all. i do not mean to seem as if i know all the numbers of foster care deaths and orphans in the world...but i do know that to let the person determine his/her own fate is better than someone killing him/her early JUST IN CASE.
i wish that the norm was for all pregnancies to be wanted ones, and for every child left without parents that there were parents to take it in...but there's not. reality is a harsh and cold place. i consider abortion to be murder, and i guess that is where pro-choicers and i clash...so in seeing it as murder, i don't think we should have it legalized. just like you don't want ted bundy able to kill innocent people, i don't want mothers killing their unborn. and it is not just the mother's body...it is her child's, too. i fail to understand why that is always overlooked. and aggieAXO, i DO plan on adopting my children, and will do so as soon as i am not still so dependant upon my own parents. if there was something that was in my power to save all the children put up for adoption or in bad foster homes believe me i would do it...until then, i am trying to save the lives of those who have yet to be born. there is no one who can say that a person born under bad circumstances cannot rise above it all and do great things. how many people do any of you know who are adopted? i know several, and i count my blessings that their biological mother had the courage and strength to have them and then give them up. every person you know has an impact on your life in some way or another...why deprive people of that simply because you THINK they will have a miserable existance? i don't think it's "socially responsible" to deny society of a potentially great person.

Monica

[curiouss]

Don't want babies? Then don't have sex. Now, that's what I call a woman's right to choose. IMHO, of course.

Now, if a mother PLANNED on conceiving a child, and some health problems occur, then the story changes.
IMHO again, it is best to try to keep the mother
alive and abort the child.

Some people (who are often stereotyped themselves) need to keep the pro-life stereotypes to a minimum. Probably, less than five percent of pro-lifers believe in blowing up abortion clinics. At least me, my family, and some of my friends don't.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
that does not mean that the other children are any less significant, or wanted

Less significant? Never. Less wanted? Unfortunately, this would appear to be the case :(

Monica, I am really glad to hear that you plan to adopt some of these hard-to-place children. You're putting your "money where your mouth is", so to speak. I believe that if more of the more outspoken "right to life" people opened up their homes to the unwanted children, their message would carry much, much more weight. Instead, a lot of people view them as being all talk and no help, because they want these children born and then aren't willing to take any of them in. That definitely makes them less credible.

[ilovemyglo]

I am prochoice, for a lot of reasons. There were too many women killed in back alley abortions when they were illegal and that doesn't do anyone anygood. I don't believe in abortions after the second trimester, though.
I was born and raised Catholic too. I just feel that a women makes a decision and that is none of my business. The trauma of a rape can make a woman not go to the hospital for medical attention, not because she doesn't want the attention, but
1. Insurance will not cover it unless you file a report with the police and most women do not report their rapes,
2. Most women feel that they are at fault for their rape and feel ashamed so they do not want to admit it.
There are a lot of reasons I believe abortion should be legal.
I don't think it is the best thing in the world, but that is for that woman to decide. God alone decide what is right and wrong, not me so I choose to leave it to her to make that decision and it is her soul and life that GOd looks at. It is between them.
That is just my take.

[AlphaGamDiva]

I don't see people who are pro-life and not adopting as being "all talk and no help"...there are plenty of ways people try to help the situation other than taking 5 kids in at a time. Some people, like myself, aren't financially stable enough to get past the red-tape of the adoption process...which makes it difficult for them to adopt. So, we try to voice our opinions, get laws passed, etc., etc. to help those without voices. That is sometimes all pro-lifers can do, ya know?

and just b/c a child is not adopted does not mean it is unwanted...there is probably an obscene amount of people who would LOVE to have that child in their home, but cannot afford to do so. but b/c the child is a financial strain does not mean the life should be terminated.

I love hearing everyone's opinion! It's interesting!
Monica

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
I don't see people who are pro-life and not adopting as being "all talk and no help"...and just b/c a child is not adopted does not mean it is unwanted...there is probably an obscene amount of people who would LOVE to have that child in their home, but cannot afford to do so. but b/c the child is a financial strain does not mean the life should be terminated.

So it's okay for someone who is against abortion to not help out and raise a child because it is a FINANCIAL STRAIN? Don't you think the sanctity of life is more important than finances? Surely the other pro-life people can chip in to help out? Don't you think saving a life is worth going without the new car or the new clothes? Please don't make excuses for people who just run their mouths! Your beliefs appear to be similar to mine, so I can't believe I am constantly having to rebut you. Your lack of a credible argument is not helping the pro life movement one bit :( Maybe you should just stop before you really start to confuse yourself :(

Aaaaagh! This is the last time I read this thread. I never get emotional over GreekChat so I guess that means that it's time to tune out of this thread for good. Later, y'all!

[AlphaChiS2K]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
I don't see people who are pro-life and not adopting as being "all talk and no help"...there are plenty of ways people try to help the situation other than taking 5 kids in at a time. Some people, like myself, aren't financially stable enough to get past the red-tape of the adoption process...which makes it difficult for them to adopt. So, we try to voice our opinions, get laws passed, etc., etc. to help those without voices. That is sometimes all pro-lifers can do, ya know?

and just b/c a child is not adopted does not mean it is unwanted...there is probably an obscene amount of people who would LOVE to have that child in their home, but cannot afford to do so. but b/c the child is a financial strain does not mean the life should be terminated.



Hmmm.... so people don't adopt because it's too much of a financial strain... they CHOOSE not to raise children. How is that different from the biological parents? Either way, someone's NOT CARING for a child.

And I'm sure that if you told all those lonely children in orphanages and foster care that someone would really like to adopt them, but it just costs too much, they'd feel MUCH better.

After all, it's the thought that counts, right?

[AlphaGamDiva]

aaaah! you ppl are absolutely killing me!!!!!! please, for one moment, try to take what i am saying as what i am saying, and nothing else. i am so tired of you all reading what i am so desperatley TRYING to say and making me out to be some stupid lil' right wing air head that doesn't have a clue what is going on! my ideals are just as important as yours...i have in NO way implied that any of the pro-choicers on here are IGNORANT or STUPID. i respect your views and realize that you have thought long and hard to obtain your opinion. in the same breath, i just happen to disagree, but that doesn't mean that i am any less valid in MY thoughts.
life is not expendable...no one has the right to choose when it is ok to take an innocent life simply b/c it is never ok. ok? this adoption thing is out of control...i am not saying "it is only the thought that counts" for the love of pete! adoption is another option that people should be more aware of. even those children who are, sadly but all too often, left in orphanages and foster care (note- not all foster families are abusers and molesters or only in it for the money, and not all orphanages are run by ol' girl in "Annie") can lead PERFECTLY NORMAL LIVES. and YES, for all that's holy, some people want to adopt but cannot do it b/c they are lacking the finances to even make it through a BACKGROUND CHECK THAT IS DONE DURING THE ADOPTION PROCESS...THE AGENTS TRYING TO CONNECT CHILD TO PARENT HAS TO TAKE A LOT OF THINGS INTO CONSIDERATION (finances being one of them...and money is a big deal b/c it is often regarded more highly than a home with both mother and father-ex:rosie o'donnell)...SOMETIMES THE COUPLE JUST WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED. geez, ppl. and it IS different from the biological parents, AlphaChiS2K, b/c they are not CHOOSING to KILL the child.
the difference is that people who choose abortion are choosing to end the life of their child, partly b/c they believe the child IS better off dead, but partly b/c it WILL require more work on their part (meaing more work hours, less time and money for their needs). the people who choose adoption are taking a positive outlook for someone other than THEMSELVES...their child and its future.
i, killarneyrose, am in NO way trying to raise a child right now in my life...i am trying to keep a child ALIVE so someone else can and so it can at least have a shot at life. and that is all.

i am sorry for using all caps in there a bit, but you ppl are twisting what i am trying to say into something it's not. i do not want to raise a child right now, and i do not think that any pro-lifer who isn't raising an adopted child is "all talk and no help". i think that pro-life means just that, and not pro-"give me a kid and i'll do it myself". ok?

monica

[curiouss]

How can someone be pro-life, yet support the death penalty?

and

How can someone be pro-choice, yet reject the death penalty?

IMO, I think that is very incongruent (sp?), however I see those views very often.

[AlphaGamDiva]

curiouss, that's not as off as it sounds. abortion kills the lives of the innocent, whereas the death penalty is punishment for those who have committed a really serious crime. but i don't have any answer for the other.

the weird thing that i often see is that a lot of people who are pro-choice and fight so strongly for it, will fight twice as hard for animal rights (like they're against ppl wearing real fur and/or are vegetarians b/c they don't want to eat something that once was a breathing animal). i've never had that explained to me how some will look out more for the life of an animal than they will for a human. :confused:
**i don't support fur companies, just so ya know, but i will grub up on some meat**

Monica

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
the weird thing that i often see is that a lot of people who are pro-choice and fight so strongly for it, will fight twice as hard for animal rights (like they're against ppl wearing real fur and/or are vegetarians b/c they don't want to eat something that once was a breathing animal). i've never had that explained to me how some will look out more for the life of an animal than they will for a human. :confused:

Actually, I don't know a single pro-choice friend who protests for animal rights. Personally, I don't think that animals should be used in unnecessary experiments, but I do see the need for them in medicine. If it weren't for animal experimentation, we wouldn't have nearly as many vaccines and cures as we do currently. It's a necessary, although not especially pretty, part of this world we live in today. And that's the same way that I feel about abortion. It's not the only choice for everyone, but it is the necessary choice for some.

[AlphaGamDiva]

i just don't want to offend anyone...really. dzrose93, hope you don't think that I think pro-choicers are nasty little baby haters/animal savers...i don't! :) i just used that as an example b/c i do know of a girl from high school who was pro-choice hard core, but would not eat an egg "b/c it has the possibility of life"...some instances like that have just laid on my mind, i guess.

just wanted to clarify my thought!
:)

[greek girlie]

Personally if my mom had aborted me I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't care-you don't miss what you don't have.


This is flawed logic. People aren't cognizant and self-aware until they're toddlers. Does that mean I can kill my child until he or she would be aware of what is going on? Using this idea dumping babies in dumpsters shouldn't be prosecutable-after all they don't really know they were alive.

This brings to mind another point of which we are all aware. The real debate here comes down to when life begins. Obviously we all believe that life means something different and that shades our opinions.

BTW I'm very impressed at how mature we all are!!!

[curiouss]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
curiouss, that's not as off as it sounds. abortion kills the lives of the innocent, whereas the death penalty is punishment for those who have committed a really serious crime. but i don't have any answer for the other.

In that case, the phrase "pro-life" needs to be changed. Killing is killing, innocent or guilty.


the weird thing that i often see is that a lot of people who are pro-choice and fight so strongly for it, will fight twice as hard for animal rights (like they're against ppl wearing real fur and/or are vegetarians b/c they don't want to eat something that once was a breathing animal). i've never had that explained to me how some will look out more for the life of an animal than they will for a human. :confused:
**i don't support fur companies, just so ya know, but i will grub up on some meat**

Monica

Can I get an AMEN in here? ;)

[damasa]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva


the weird thing that i often see is that a lot of people who are pro-choice and fight so strongly for it, will fight twice as hard for animal rights (like they're against ppl wearing real fur and/or are vegetarians b/c they don't want to eat something that once was a breathing animal). i've never had that explained to me how some will look out more for the life of an animal than they will for a human. :confused:

Monica

Whoa, where are you getting these statistics from? I'd like to read about this. Or, is this a matter of opinion based off the ideals and opinions of a girl you knew or know? Because one to me doesn't equal a lot. It's just weird because I don't think I know of a single person who is pro-choice that protests testing with animals, or anything related to animal rights'.

d

[valkyrie]

Okay, I guess I should speak up here.

I am completely, 100% pro choice, in all circumstances. I am also againt the death penalty and am a strict vegetarian and an advocate (although quietly) of animal rights. Whether my views make logical sense or not doesn't bother me, because I feel very strongly in my heart that I am right.

To me, it really comes down to the fact that a fetus or "unborn child" CANNOT LIVE ON ITS OWN. It is entirely dependent upon its mother, and I do not think that ANYONE has the right to tell a woman that she must (to use DukeBlue's wording again) DONATE HER BODY for nine months to carry something she doesn't want.

I'm not saying that a convicted murderer (who, remember, may well be innocent, but I won't get into a whole discussion of how racist and unfair the death penalty is) or an animal is more important than a child, but they are not dependent upon someone else for the very basics of existence, like breathing. I think that abortion is more of a woman issue than a child issue, and that the woman is the one who should determine what to do. To me, it comes down to the fact that I think the government should not interfere with something that only affects YOU or WHAT IS PART OF YOUR OWN BODY and not a creature living outside of it.

That's just my $.02, since y'all didn't seem to think there were any pro choice animal rights types out there.

[aggieAXO]

I am pro choice, pro death penalty and pro animal rts. Comparng a fur farm / slaughter house and abortion are 2 different things. Animals in fur farms are kept in small cages and then killed either through eltrocution or some other mean-not a pretty sight. I won't go into the nasty detail of how your steak got on your plate tonight. I do not preach to my friends that meat is bad-if they want to eat meat that is their rt. I don't dictate to them what they can or cannot put on their plate to eat.

Personally being a veterinarian I have soooooooo much more respect for animals than humans b/c I see the way every freakin day that I work how disgusting humans can be-not only to animals but also to their kids or others. If you are pro-life all power to you BUT DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY BODY. BTW I eat eggs b/c I don't believe they are a "LIFE"-I have no problems eating eggs (free range of course). \

I will never change my mind on this subject-you can tell me all you want about the good orphanges or the adoption scenarios etc... I respect all of your opinions and am happy that we have the freedom to express these opinions but please don't let other people (ie the govt) tell me what I can and cannot do to my own body-this not only includes abortion but also assisted suicide.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Comparng a fur farm / slaughter house and abortion are 2 different things. Animals in fur farms are kept in small cages and then killed either through eltrocution or some other mean-not a pretty sight. I won't go into the nasty detail of how your steak got on your plate tonight.

yeah, and i don't think the process of sucking that baby out was really all that pretty, either.

If you are pro-life all power to you BUT DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY BODY.

...but it isn't just YOUR body. as a person who had to study biology a lot, i would think you would know when someone becomes pregnant, that means they are going to have a baby...which has a body all its own. it is definitely dependant on the mother for nutrients and to help it develop, but that doesn't mean it does not have it's own physical body. so, it ISN'T just yours to control.

and, i have yet to provide any statistics, d, (this has been addressed b/4)...all of what i say is what i believe to be true based on how i value life. when i have a statistic or a number or a website you can verify things, then i promise i will fill you all in. until then, i will simply voice my opinion, and you are free to agree or disagree.

[curiouss]

Originally posted by aggieAXO

Personally being a veterinarian I have soooooooo much more respect for animals than humans b/c I see the way every freakin day that I work how disgusting humans can be-not only to animals but also to their kids or others.

That attitude kind of disturbs me. It reminds me of when that guy threw a puppy of the bridge,
he got more years for that, while some people got less years or none FOR KILLING HUMAN BEINGS. A more specific example, in the same area, a guy got at least ten years for beating his dog to death, another guy got NO years for killing a cousin of mine. :mad:

[aggieAXO]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva


yeah, and i don't think the process of sucking that baby out was really all that pretty, either.



...but it isn't just YOUR body. as a person who had to study biology a lot, i would think you would know when someone becomes pregnant, that means they are going to have a baby...which has a body all its own. it is definitely dependant on the mother for nutrients and to help it develop, but that doesn't mean it does not have it's own physical body. so, it ISN'T just yours to control.

It is my control. The fetus needs me to live. To say it has a body all its own is an oxymoron.

To curiouss I am sorry about your cousin and I agree that humans should be punished for both crimes to animals and humans.

[AlphaGamDiva]

what i said was it has a physical body all its own (regardless of how dependent it is upon the mother, it is still another being)...you are controlling another life when you end it abruptly.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by curiouss
That attitude kind of disturbs me. It reminds me of when that guy threw a puppy of the bridge,
he got more years for that, while some people got less years or none FOR KILLING HUMAN BEINGS. A more specific example, in the same area, a guy got at least ten years for beating his dog to death, another guy got NO years for killing a cousin of mine. :mad:

Eek, I'm up too late.

Curiouss, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that you should be mad if someone goes to jail for killing an animal. I think that you should be mad that people kill other people and don't go to jail. I'd also like to know where a guy got ten years for beating a dog to death, because in my studies of state animal cruelty laws, I have not heard of such a thing. And I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.

AggieAXO, although I disagree with you on the death penalty, as usual you are my hero! :D

[curiouss]

Originally posted by valkyrie


Eek, I'm up too late.

Curiouss, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that you should be mad if someone goes to jail for killing an animal. I think that you should be mad that people kill other people and don't go to jail. I'd also like to know where a guy got ten years for beating a dog to death, because in my studies of state animal cruelty laws, I have not heard of such a thing. And I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.



I not mad because people go to jail for killing animals. I am mad because some of those people get more years for killing animals than for killing humans.

That incident occurred in the outskirts of St. Louis. This man's dog bit his daughter, then he got some type of hammer and beat him to death with it. He may have not got exactly ten years. But, he got more years than the guy who killed my cousin, who got none.

[UMgirl]

ok, im sorry, i tried to stay away (really I did) but I cant....:)

Ok id just like to say that NO pro-lifer here is trying to say what you can do with your body. Like everyone else we're just stating OUR opinion.

To me, it really comes down to the fact that a fetus or "unborn child" CANNOT LIVE ON ITS OWN.
Ok, and do you feel the same about a person on a respirator? They're dependent on something and cant live on their own.

OK, THIS IS JUST FROM MY OBSERVATION SO DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS NEXT THING.....ok everyone keeps saying how pro-lifers attack and get hostile, well no offense and im not saying all (and i still love how mature we're all being even though its gotten a lil outta hand at times) but many pro-choicers are like ripping down pro-lifers and getting hostile over are views, way more then pro-lifers on pro-choicers. We have as much right to believe in ours as you do yours and as long as we're not forcing stuff on you, stay CALM. Opinions, thats all this is. (and this is for no one in particular and kind of goes for both sides of the issue).

ok will try to stay away again. Happy Holidays to all

[AlphaGamDiva]

Ok, and do you feel the same about a person on a respirator? They're dependent on something and cant live--UMGirl

ah, thank you! an example i was searching for and couldn't quite put into words very well! sometimes i feel all alone in here, so i appreciate the back-up...come back more often!!! :D

monica

[valkyrie]

Yes, but someone who is on a respirator is not dependent upon the BODY of another to survive. He or she depends on machinery, not a person. No person is being forced to donate her body to keep the person alive. I think it is entirely different. When someone is on a respirator, nobody else's body is being sacrificed against her will.

As a side note, I also think that someone who needs a respirator should be able to decide whether to go on one or not, and should be able to tell another person what her wishes are should she ever be in that situation. I don't think anyone should ever be hooked up to a respirator if it is against her wishes. As soon as the government starts interfering with an individual's choice in dealing with her own body and medical treatment in any form, I think we are all in big trouble.

[AlphaGamDiva]

"I also think that someone who needs a respirator should be able to decide whether to go on one or not, and should be able to tell another person what her wishes are should she ever be in that situation. I don't think anyone should ever be hooked up to a respirator if it is against her wishes. As soon as the government starts interfering with an individual's choice in dealing with her own body and medical treatment in any form, I think we are all in big trouble."--valkyrie

ppl do have that option, but not everyone has a living will dictating what they want done in a case where they may need a respirator...

when a baby is born, it still needs the care of others. it has to be fed and changed...which is taking from the mother, just the pocketbook, not the body anymore. so...when it's inside the womb it's one thing, but when it's outside, it's another...?

[damasa]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva






and, i have yet to provide any statistics, d, (this has been addressed b/4)...all of what i say is what i believe to be true based on how i value life. when i have a statistic or a number or a website you can verify things, then i promise i will fill you all in. until then, i will simply voice my opinion, and you are free to agree or disagree.

First, I didn't see the address about statistics before, I guess it's "my bad" roofles.
Second, I respect what everyone says and believes. BUT, when someone tries or implies to pass opinion off as fact, I like to see stats, figures, something to help me better see the big picture, maybe to open up my mind so to speak.



d

[aggieAXO]

ditto, Valkyrie-you hit it rt. on the nose. BTW Valkyrie maybe you can answer this-aren't there some states that do as they wish even though you have a living will?

BTW I like peoples opinions but as Damasa said earlier when you start spouting off opinions as facts you need to be careful. I would like to see some data too. Maybe the reason we haven't seen any data yet is b/c the data supports the fact the many orphanges are not up to par or that there is only a line waiting to adopt the healthy caucasian babies- which has been one my points all along.

[Miami1839]

On the abortion issue I'm pro-choice because first I'm not a woman and I feel that the woman should have all the control because they're having the baby. Secondly, I think abortion should be an option because of criminals. I agree nobody should be forced to make a choice. Just like nobody forces you to be or not to be an organ donor.

I'm major supporter of the death penalty and I think that Bin Laden and everyone of his supporters should get it. Including state sponsors and other terrorist groups across the world. Eye for an eye. Nuff Said.

[justamom]

First, I said I wasn't going to post again...I can't help it.
Second, I said a baby could feel pain at 6 weeks. I was wrong, it's 8.
CHAPTER 14

FETAL PAIN

YES AND BY 8 WEEKS

By 8 weeks? Show me!

By this age the neuro-anatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present at 8 weeks. The pain impulse goes to the thalamus. It sends a signal down the motor nerves to pull away from the hurt.



Give an example.

Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.

Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.

A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus. Volman & Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels," British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234.

O.K., that is activity that can be observed, but is there other evidence of pain? After all, the fetal baby can’t tell us he hurts.

Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980

Give me more proof.

In 1964 President Reagan said: "When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing." President Ronald Reagan to National Religious Broadcasters, New York Times, Jan. 31, 1984

This provoked a public reaction from pro-abortion circles and a response from an auspicious group of professors, including pain specialists and two past presidents of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

They strongly backed Mr. Reagan and produced substantial documentation. Excerpts of their letter (2/13/84) to him included:

"Real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG (electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to cold, and to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late Sir William Lily — the father of fetology."

We state categorically that no finding of modern fetology invalidates the remarkable conclusion drawn after a lifetime of research by the late Professor Arnold Gesell of Yale University. In The Embryology of Behavior: The Beginnings of the Human Mind (1945, Harper Bros.), Dr. Gesell wrote, "and so by the close of the first trimester the fetus is a sentient, moving being. We need not speculate as to the nature of his psychic attributes, but we may assert that the organization of his psychosomatic self is well under way."

Mr. President, in drawing attention to the capability of the human fetus to feel pain, you stand on firmly established ground. Willke, J & B, Abortion: Questions & Answers, Hayes, 1991, Chpt. 10

What of The Silent Scream?

A Realtime ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12- week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from Heritage House '76 at http:www.heritagehouse76.com). Proabortionists have attempted to discredit this film. A well documented paper refuting their charges is available from National Right to Life, 419 7th St. NW, Washington, DC 20004, $2.00 p.p. A short, 10-minute video showing the testimony of the doctor who did the abortion in Silent Scream definitely debunks any criticism of Silent Scream’s accuracy. The Answer, Bernadel, Inc., P.O. Box 1897, Old Chelsea Station, New York, NY, 10011.

Pain? What of just comfort?

"One of the most uncomfortable ledges that the unborn can encounter is his mother’s backbone. If he happens to be lying so that his own backbone is across hers [when the mother lies on her back], the unborn will wiggle around until he can get away from this highly disagreeable position." M. Liley & B. Day, Modern Motherhood, Random House, 1969, p. 42

But isn’t pain mostly psychological?

There is also organic, or physiological pain which elicits a neurological response to pain. P. Lubeskind, "Psychology & Physiology of Pain," Amer. Review Psychology, vol. 28, 1977, p. 42

But early on there is no cerebral cortex for thinking, therefore no pain?

The cortex isn’t needed to feel pain. The thalamus is needed and (see above) is functioning at 8 weeks. Even complete removal of the cortex does not eliminate the sensation of pain. "Indeed there seems to be little evidence that pain information reaches the sensory cortex." Patton et al., Intro. to Basic Neurology, W. B. Saunders Co. 1976, p. 178

How about during an abortion?

This really hit the fan during the 1996 debate in the U.S. Congress over a law to ban partial birth abortions. Pro-abortionists had claimed that the anaesthetic had already killed the fetal baby. Top officials of the U.S.

Society for Obstetric Anaesthesia & Perinatology vigorously denied this explaining that usual anaesthesia did not harm the baby. D. Gianelli, Anaesthesiologists Question Claims in Abortion Debate, Am. Med. News, Jan. 1, ’96

This brought the issue of fetal pain into the news, and testimony was given to the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the U.S. House of Representatives.

"The fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain. Without doubt a partial birth abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. R. White, Dir. Neurosurgery & Brain Research, Case Western Univ.

Also, "Far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain"...that babies under 30 weeks have a "newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age." P. Ranalli, Neuro. Dept., Univ. of Toronto

Give me more research data.

Data in the British Medical Journal, Lancet, gave solid confirmation of such pain. It is known that the fetal umbilical cord has no pain receptors such as the rest of the fetal body. Accordingly, they tested fetal hormone stress response comparing puncturing of the abdomen and of the cord.

They observed "the fetus reacts to intrahepatic (liver) needling with vigorous body and breathing movements, but not to cord needling. The levels of these hormones did not vary with fetal age." M. Fisk, et al., Fetal Plasma Cortisol and B-endorphin Response to Intrauterine Needling, Lancet, Vol. 344, July 9, 1994, Pg. 77

Another excellent British study commented on this:

"It cannot be comfortable for the fetus to have a scalp electrode implanted on his skin, to have blood taken from the scalp or to suffer the skull compression that may occur even with spontaneous delivery. It is hardly surprising that infants delivered by difficult forceps extraction act as if they have a severe headache." Valman & Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels," British Med. Jour., Jan. 26, 1980

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp#By%208%20weeks?% 20Show%20me!

This site shows both sides if you search it.

[twinstars]

So the fetus feels pain at 8 wks... what are we supposed to take from that? Is it wrong to kill something just because it will feel pain? We kill things all the time that can feel a LOT of pain, creatures far more cognizant than an 8 wk old fetus. Just something to think about...

[curiouss]

Originally posted by twinstars
So the fetus feels pain at 8 wks... what are we supposed to take from that?

That pain is a sign of life. Isn't that the argument, that fetuses aren't really considered as "living"?

[justamom]

twinstars, I only wanted to correct a statement I made earlier that was wrong. Also, people have been asking for "evidence" and the link to the site has (as I mentioned) both sides covered.

I think that this thread runs much deeper than what I saw initially on the surface. I would venture a guess that more than a few of the posters have either had an abortion, their girlfriend has had one or as in dzrose's case a close friend.

It is against the law of my church to even encourage anyone to get an abortion. Sometimes, I really don't agree with all the laws, but then I have to consider that my faith is not like a dress that I toss aside if I don't like the fit or it goes out of style.

Don't worry, I'm not going to blow up any clinics or shoot any doctors. I wouldn't say anyone who does this is condemned to hell either-if there is true remorse and meaningful contrition. If I can influence once sngle person to consider their full range of options, then I know I have done something good.

[twinstars]

Originally posted by curiouss


That pain is a sign of life. Isn't that the argument, that fetuses aren't really considered as "living"?

I'm pro-choice, and that's not my argument (that abortion is morally ok because the fetus "isn't living.") It is certainly living, what else would it be, dead??

A very early fetus is "living," but not in the same sense that you and I are, at least in my opinion.

I highly doubt that you think it's wrong to kill something just because it is living.

Sometimes we kill living things because we think we are justified in doing so (as in, killing adult cows for food, when we don't really NEED to), or because we think it's the best of several bad options (in the case of abortion).

[curiouss]

Originally posted by twinstars


I'm pro-choice, and that's not my argument (that abortion is morally ok because the fetus "isn't living.") It is certainly living, what else would it be, dead??

A very early fetus is "living," but not in the same sense that you and I are, at least in my opinion.

I highly doubt that you think it's wrong to kill something just because it is living.


Let me clarify, "living humans".
No, I don't think it is wrong to kill animals for food. But, I do think it is wrong to kill humans, no matter the reason.

[curiouss]

I have a question. Would any of you put your family pet(s) asleep if they became inconvient?

[lyrelyre]

I may put an animal to sleep if it is in pain-if it's the most humane thing to do. In no case would I put an animal to sleep simply because it inconveniences me.

I am pro-life-BTW

[twinstars]

Originally posted by curiouss
I have a question. Would any of you put your family pet(s) asleep if they became inconvient?


Ok, so you have no problem with killing healthy, happy animals for food (as you've stated above), when you could easily get protein and nutrients from other sources, sparing those animals' lives, yet you think it would be wrong to put an inconvenient pet to sleep (if that's what you're getting at)??

How exactly do you justify that?

[curiouss]

Originally posted by twinstars



Ok, so you have no problem with killing healthy, happy animals for food (as you've stated above), when you could easily get protein and nutrients from other sources, sparing those animals' lives, yet you think it would be wrong to put an inconvenient pet to sleep (if that's what you're getting at)??

That question was directed towards the pro-choicers. I know a lot of pro-choicers who wouldn't dare to eat meat nor put their family pet asleep just because it was an inconvience. However, the same people have no problems aborting babies, just because they were an inconvience.

[twinstars]

Curous,
I think you're oversimplifying things a LOT to say that an unwanted pregnancy, and the responsibilities of raising a kid for 18+ years, are just "inconveniences" for the mother. These things change the mother's life, maybe for the worse, in MAJOR, MAJOR ways. It's a really big deal to have a kid and give it up for adoption, or to have a kid and raise it right. It takes a huge amount of sacrifice on the parents' part. I understand why some women in some circumstances would choose abortion. I don't think it's because they're just selfish and want to avoid the "inconvenience" of pregnancy and caring for a kid. It's just not that simple.

[curiouss]

Originally posted by twinstars
Curous,
I think you're oversimplifying things a LOT to say that an unwanted pregnancy, and the responsibilities of raising a kid for 18+ years, are just "inconveniences" for the mother. These things change the mother's life, maybe for the worse, in MAJOR, MAJOR ways. It's a really big deal to have a kid and give it up for adoption, or to have a kid and raise it right. It takes a huge amount of sacrifice on the parents' part. I understand why some women in some circumstances would choose abortion. I don't think it's because they're just selfish and want to avoid the "inconvenience" of pregnancy and caring for a kid. It's just not that simple.

Unless raped, people who don't want babies should not have sex. In that way I am pro-choice. Once a woman is pregnant it is too late to change her mind.

[aggieAXO]

Like it or not curiouss many people are going to keep having sex and will get pregnant and will have an abortion if that is what they choose. It is not as simple as saying "if you don't want the possibility of getting pregnant then don't have sex". BTW I am with twinstars, I know the fetus has pain sensation just like the cow they slaughtered yesterday for your steak has pain sensation. I also see the starving kids on TV suffering from hunger pains-this kind of pain is ok but an abortion is not??? That is not going to change my view.

Also curiouss to reply to your animal question-there are people that give up their pet b/c it is an inconvenience-I have seen it. Though I do not do convenient euthanasias I usually try and adopt these animals out I know the shelter will do these euthanasias. I cannot take all of these animals in as there are way to many.
Many times the other alternative is a slow painful death-whether it be on the streets or by the hands of their owners (I have had many clients say they are just going to take their animal out in the back and shoot it). Thank God we have euthanasia and shelters for these unwanted creatures and thank God for legal abortion.

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by curiouss
people who don't want babies should not have sex

Easier said than done.....

Curiouss, I don't know you nor do I know if you have ever been in a serious relationship where you are head-over-heels in love with the man you are with. But, to anyone who has never been in a relationship that is like that:
When you are that in love with someone, it is sooooo difficult to say no to sex. I use to want to wait until marriage to have sex. But, that was before I had a serious relationship. When I became involved in a serious relationship, I finally realized what my friends were talking about. It is hard not to give into temptation. Wanting sex is both biological and emotional. It is part of human nature and it is a beautiful and wonderful thing. It is an expression of love between two people. It should not be shunned because it may possibly produce a child.
My roommate/sorority sister use to go around at her church preaching to others about why they should wait until marriage to have sex (when she was in high school). Last October (2000), she met the man of her dreams who happened to be our next door neighboor. Two months later, she gave into temptation. Over a year later, she is still involved in a healthy sexual relationship with her boyfriend.
Most women who do not want to have children use precautions. They use condoms, the Pill, or other methods of birth control. Thankfully, many girls don't see abortion as a birth control method. But, pregnancy can happen to even the most cautious of all people. Pregnancy should not be a punishment for being involved in a beautiful thing such as sex.
Like I said before, I am pro-choice. If I were to get pregnant, I am not sure what I would do. But, I would love to have that option open.
PS- To any woman out there that uses abortion as a method of birth control....shame on you! Not only is it immoral but sometimes an abortion can leave you sterile. If you ever want a kid one day, an abortion can ruin that chance so be careful.

[UMgirl]

I think it is entirely different. When someone is on a respirator, nobody else's body is being sacrificed against her will. - Valkyrie

I respect your opinion, however how is your body being sacrificed against your own will when you have a baby. You put yourself in that position to have a baby. Baby didnt ask to be here. Thats just my 2 cents.

[deltaphi94]

Abortion is, in my opinion, a very personal and horrifying decision one may have to make. A few years ago, I was completely pro-life. I am totally against the idea of abortion being substituted for contraception. If you don't think you can control your urges, use something. A screaming baby at all hours of the night is not fun.
I know there are cases where the woman, man, or couple just doesn't see any other way besides abortion, and I can see that side. But, the baby didn't ask to be conceived, and there are so many consequences to abortion. Not only is there some health risk (minimal as it may seem), but just think of the emotional side.
Can you imagine the nightmares? Not to mention that the experience wouldn't just fade away. There would be thoughts of what might have been. Talk about your "if only's..." and "what if's..."
All things considered, I would have to say I am pro-choice. I just don't know how many people actually take into consideration all the things that are really at stake.

[AlphaGamDiva]

ok, been gone for a while...so back to this fact/opinion thing for a red hot second...

i apologize if my opinions are coming off as fact to the pro-choice supporters on here. if they come off as such, though, it's probably b/c i believe them to be fact. and if i believe something to be true, then i am going to voice that to those who see otherwise (just like they do), not to be out to change their mind necessarily, but to maybe have them think about things differently...just to see the other side. but the statistics that you all are asking for...you want how many kids put up for adoption are actually taken home and what else...i do want to try and provide some honest data of what you are asking. i just thought i was on here to voice my opinion, not write a research paper. :(

and i know in AL few years back when a mother and her unborn baby were killed, the person was brought up for both deaths. i don't think either circumstance is across the board for all states, though...

[Parsifal]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva

In AL few years back when a mother and her unborn baby were killed, the person was brought up for both deaths. i don't think either circumstance is across the board for all states, though...

FYI, in states where a person is charged for both deaths, the life of the unborn child must be sustainable outside the body of the mother.

[The1calledTKE]

I am all for the woman choosing. If it was my kid I don't know what i would do.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Except in the case of rape or fetal defects, lesbians should not be allowed to have abortions.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Except in the case of rape or fetal defects, lesbians should not be allowed to have abortions.

WTF?

[honeychile]

Originally posted by Parsifal
FYI, in states where a person is charged for both deaths, the life of the unborn child must be sustainable outside the body of the mother.

The last I heard (and I could be wrong - kddani?), in PA, the knowledge that the woman is pregnant (either by sight or by personal knowledge) is reason enough to be charged for two deaths.

[MTSUGURL]

I am pro-life in all cases. Yes, even in the cases of rape, incest, or endangering the health/life of the mother. Ibelieve abortion is wrong, plain and simple.
That being said, I despise the people that stand outside of abortion clinics with hateful signs that hurl insults at the women and doctors going into them. I don't agree with the choices that these women make, but knowing how much it breaks my heart for them to think that they see this as their only choice, I can't imagine what they've gone through to make this choice. (I'm not talking about the women that use abortion as a form of birth control - my heart breaks for them as well because of the consequences, both physical and emotional, that they will have to deal with later.)
I know I posted this somewhere else, but I'll post my experience again. Several years ago I was raped by an exboyfriend and I was terrified I was pregnant. When someone suggested to me to get an abortion, the thought came to me, "Why? This won't cause the rape to be undone - it would just kill the baby that could be raised by someone else."
I realize that no form of birth control is 100% effective. I'm a birthcontrol/condom baby, and my best friend became pregnant with both of her children while she was on the pill. Abstinence is the only sure way for someone to not become pregnant, and I realize that this isn't realistic to expect of most people.
I do believe however that you accept the risks of sex when you choose to engage in it, and becoming pregnant is one of those risks.

[phigamucsb]

pro-life. I had much difficulty deciding on this issue when I was younger but have since come to the conclusion that abortion is fundamentally wrong. In the past few years many things have happened to shape my views (my sister had a daughter, which I could not imagine being absent from my life). Something else that I never really thought about until the other day was what if my parents had had an abortion with me (kinda scary thought) I mean I wouldn't be here to write this post.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by phigamucsb
Something else that I never really thought about until the other day was what if my parents had had an abortion with me (kinda scary thought) I mean I wouldn't be here to write this post.

I've never really understood this statement -- if you weren't here to write this post, you also wouldn't be here to care if you could write this post or not.

[ztawinthropgirl]

I am a pro-choice person. No, I have never had kids but if I was put in the situation where my life or the baby's life or both lives were in danger then I say abort. If I was raped and got pregnant, then, I would not hesitate with an abortion because that child was not brought into this world by my choosing nor by a loving relationship. Now, if I chose to have sex and got pregnant, then, that baby is my responsibility and abortion, by no means, should be used as a form of birth control. An abortion is not by any means easy on a woman's body. I don't care what anyone says. I mean geez they're killing something that's in your body and yanking it out.

I hate it when those people say that abortion is wrong when the mother's or baby's life is in danger. Wouldn't you want that baby to have a mother? Or would you want both baby and mother to die because heaven forbid an abortion might save one of their lives? Why lose two lives over you not wanting an abortion? Or lose the mother's life when the mother can still go on to have other children? That child will grow up without it's natural mother. Yes, I know about adoption where a lot of people grow up without knowing their natural mothers. I also know about all of those abusive relationships.

I also hate it when those people stand out in front of schools with graphic signs advocating pro-life. They're also the ones standing out in front of doctors' offices with those same signs and yelling all kinds of absurd things.

Now, with all of that said, it does outrage me when a pregnant woman is killed and the killer isn't charged with 2 counts of murder. There was no choice on the victims' part, just the killer's.

Also, I am not against sex but my personal choices about sex (like those with an abortion) is my own private decision. I know how I feel about having sex before marriage and it's not a curse to wait. I have been in 2 very serious relationships where the temptation was there. I do know sex is going to happen outside of marriage and out-of-wedlock pregnancies do happen. If you don't want to have a baby, then, when you have sex, use a condom. Not only use a condom but the pill. That way you are less likely to have a baby and contract an STD. Rocket science I know but it doesn't blow my mind!

[PhiPsiRuss]

I'm pro-choice about everything; abortion, drugs, school choice. My stance on these issues is anything but purely ideological. My father was a drug addict, and I attended a private school in the 11th and 12th grades, so I was able to see just how horrendous public education is. But those are topics for another thread.

Abortion is not a good thing, and in a perfect world, it would never happen. Restricting a woman's right to control her body is also a terrible thing. Unfortunately, we can't eliminate both evils, so we must choose.

If abortion were to again become illegal, it could be dramatically reduced, but only if we turned this country into a police state. The United States would cease to exist as a nation of liberty. This is a very heavy price to pay. People don't move to the America to lose freedom, and they don't move to oppressive nations at all.

As I see it, making abortion illegal is profoundly unpatriotic, and anathema to all that is special about America.

http://www.maycoelectrical.com/american_flag.jpg

[ADPiZXalum]

I'm against it, I think it's wrong.

[godfrey n. glad]

Originally posted by MTSUGURL

I do believe however that you accept the risks of sex when you choose to engage in it, and becoming pregnant is one of those risks.

If you believe this, do you also believe that people who, by having sex, get an STD should accept their consequences and not seek treatment? Now, note that I am not saying a child is a disease, but as is characterized by the post I am quoting, getting pregnant is a risk, as is getting an STD. One may use protection, which may sometimes fail, and suffer the consequences of the risks they have taken. Yet, I never see anyone claiming that people should suffer through gonorrhea or crabs because they deserve it, having taken a risk they knew full well could lead to this consequence.

Similarly, there is the oft-quoted car accident analogy. Knowing that driving will often lead to accidents, you are only getting what you deserve, or taking on a consequence you knew was inherent in driving (or even riding in) a car, therefore you should not seek treatment. The point being that people will and should still drive, trying their damned best to avoid the consequences. All of life is about measured risk taking for rewards. Should we all quit doing anything at all risky because we may have an undesired consequence?

Also, what about those people who don't want to have children ever? What would you say to them? That it is not their right to choose whether or not to reproduce? That they should go through life as virgins? Keeping in mind that any ethical medical practictioner pretty much makes it policy that women that have never borne a child shall not qualify for sterilization and that men younger than 35 or so with no children still have a hard time getting sterilized, it would seem that there is no realistic solution to this problem. People will have sex. It's a natural part of a relationship, and in primates, is NOT just for reproducing. People, IMHO, should have the ability to choose whether or not they will bear children. There are many of us out there that practice safe sex and have been monogomous for about a decade, don't want children but no doctor will sterilize us. If I get pregnant, having done MY very best to avoid it, I don't think I should be punished.

[justamom]

There are many of us out there that practice safe sex and have been monogomous for about a decade, don't want children but no doctor will sterilize us.

It's called a vasectomy and a tubal ligation.
Last I heard, you can have it done just about anywhere-except a Catholic hospital perhaps.

[James]

Actually you can do it at home with an Ginzu knife, a mirror, some glue, thread and a bit of scotch. :)

Originally posted by justamom
There are many of us out there that practice safe sex and have been monogomous for about a decade, don't want children but no doctor will sterilize us.

It's called a vasectomy and a tubal ligation.
Last I heard, you can have it done just about anywhere-except a Catholic hospital perhaps.

[godfrey n. glad]

Originally posted by justamom


It's called a vasectomy and a tubal ligation.
Last I heard, you can have it done just about anywhere-except a Catholic hospital perhaps.

And it's called sterilization if you are speaking about either sex interchangeably. Last I was told by 2 physicians in separate practice, the guidelines I posted above are SOP. Did you hear it from a more credible source perchance?

[MTSUGURL]

Oh my.

In spite of your disclaimer that you are not saying a child is a disease, you are equating becoming pregnant with a disease. Yes, both are risk. And yes, I believe that you should receive treatment for STDs. There are still consequences to suffer - you run the risk of sterliziation, having something that you can spread to others and never be rid of yourself, etc. I believe this also is a risk you accept when you choose to have sex, because NOTHING is 100% guaranteed.

I am saying that if you are willing to engage in the activity, you are willing to accept the consequences. I've been in 3 car accidents. (One was my fault for those wondering.) Do I stop drinving? No, but I understand that I may one day be in another accident and that is a risk I accept because I need to drive to work, school, etc.

I believe children are a gift. There are those that do not want to have children, and I understand that as well. I do not agree with doctors that refuse to perform a vasectomy or tubal ligation.
I believe there is a difference in performing one of these surgeries than in an abortion - they take place prior to conception and an abortion takes place after.


Originally posted by godfrey n. glad
If you believe this, do you also believe that people who, by having sex, get an STD should accept their consequences and not seek treatment? Now, note that I am not saying a child is a disease, but as is characterized by the post I am quoting, getting pregnant is a risk, as is getting an STD. One may use protection, which may sometimes fail, and suffer the consequences of the risks they have taken. Yet, I never see anyone claiming that people should suffer through gonorrhea or crabs because they deserve it, having taken a risk they knew full well could lead to this consequence.

Similarly, there is the oft-quoted car accident analogy. Knowing that driving will often lead to accidents, you are only getting what you deserve, or taking on a consequence you knew was inherent in driving (or even riding in) a car, therefore you should not seek treatment. The point being that people will and should still drive, trying their damned best to avoid the consequences. All of life is about measured risk taking for rewards. Should we all quit doing anything at all risky because we may have an undesired consequence?

Also, what about those people who don't want to have children ever? What would you say to them? That it is not their right to choose whether or not to reproduce? That they should go through life as virgins? Keeping in mind that any ethical medical practictioner pretty much makes it policy that women that have never borne a child shall not qualify for sterilization and that men younger than 35 or so with no children still have a hard time getting sterilized, it would seem that there is no realistic solution to this problem. People will have sex. It's a natural part of a relationship, and in primates, is NOT just for reproducing. People, IMHO, should have the ability to choose whether or not they will bear children. There are many of us out there that practice safe sex and have been monogomous for about a decade, don't want children but no doctor will sterilize us. If I get pregnant, having done MY very best to avoid it, I don't think I should be punished.

[James]

I am willing to suffer the consequences of unplanned pregnancy. Thats one of the things that abortion is, an option.

Originally posted by MTSUGURL
Oh my.

In spite of your disclaimer that you are not saying a child is a disease, you are equating becoming pregnant with a disease. Yes, both are risk. And yes, I believe that you should receive treatment for STDs. There are still consequences to suffer - you run the risk of sterliziation, having something that you can spread to others and never be rid of yourself, etc. I believe this also is a risk you accept when you choose to have sex, because NOTHING is 100% guaranteed.

I am saying that if you are willing to engage in the activity, you are willing to accept the consequences. I've been in 3 car accidents. (One was my fault for those wondering.) Do I stop drinving? No, but I understand that I may one day be in another accident and that is a risk I accept because I need to drive to work, school, etc.

I believe children are a gift. There are those that do not want to have children, and I understand that as well. I do not agree with doctors that refuse to perform a vasectomy or tubal ligation.
I believe there is a difference in performing one of these surgeries than in an abortion - they take place prior to conception and an abortion takes place after.

[justamom]

Credible source!?! HA! LOL!

Do you need your parents signature or what? Either you aren't looking, or you don't know where to look? Or did you just pose that as a possibility?

They are out there, but just as some physicians would NEVER perform an abortion, others would NEVER do sterilization techniques-especially if they feel the individual is too young to comprehend the consequences.

[Jill1228]

Picture it: A 25 year old woman. She does not, does NOT, DOES NOT want children! (did I say she didn't want to have children in any way shape or form?) :D She has known this for ages. She wants to get the baby shop closed. Many doctors will NOT do it because "she might change her mind". I personally have known friends who tried to get the factory closed but because they have not had kids and are under 40, no doctor will do it

Originally posted by justamom
There are many of us out there that practice safe sex and have been monogomous for about a decade, don't want children but no doctor will sterilize us.

It's called a vasectomy and a tubal ligation.
Last I heard, you can have it done just about anywhere-except a Catholic hospital perhaps.

[swissmiss04]

MTSUgirl, I see your point. (I don't agree w/ your stance, btw.) Your driving analogy was excellent. However, there are many people on this board who either are, know, or made "condom babies" (children born despite use of contraceptives). If you read the little inserts in any box of birth control, they list the statistics for conception rates per year of average use. Even tubal ligation has a possibility, however slight, of conceiving. Should married (or unmarried, for that matter) people be forced to live in celibacy simply because they don't want kids? Newsflash: people don't have sex simply for procreation. There's a reason it feels good.
Yes children are a gift. But for some these gifts can pose serious emotional or physical problems. I don't advocate serial abortions, nor do I have much sympathy for people who take no precaution whatsoever (yet want no children). However, let individuals make those decisions. Otherwise we'll revert to the years of back alley abortions and tragic consequences.

[Jill1228]

Co-sign! I did the March for Women's Lives on Washington in 1992. Had I been living in or near DC in 2004, you bet your ass I woulda marched this past April.

I have never had an abortion myself (never been pregnant). I am an advocate of "use protection or keep your legs closed"

I have issues with late term abortions and dumbasses that use abortion for birth control. But it is a woman's body and a woman's choice and I will fight to the death for the right to choose. No way in hell I want to go back to the back alley procedures or only the rich being able to get them.

My favorite sticker: Against Abortion? Then Don't Have One!

On the same token, there should be more education about protecting one's self from STDs and making birth control more available! I mean how many people can afford $37 a month for birth control pills? (yup if you are not insured or don't know the connections to get BC at reduced prices or free, that is how much they cost).

It kills me that SOME (notice I mentioned SOME) pro life folx don't want birth control to be readily available....HELLO you can't have it both ways!

BTW-I am for capital punishment.

To make things weirder, I am married to a pro life atheist! :eek:

Originally posted by ZTAngel
I am pro-choice. I don't believe that the government nor protestors have any right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body.

[MTSUGURL]

Originally posted by Jill1228
On the same token, there should be more education about protecting one's self from STDs and making birth control more available! I mean how many people can afford $37 a month for birth control pills? (yup if you are not insured or don't know the connections to get BC at reduced prices or free, that is how much they cost).


I agree. Although I do believe abstinence is the best route, I know people will have sex and therefore need to be educated in ways to protect themselves. I also agree that sterilization should be available for those that do not want children at all.

As I said - I'm a birthcontrol/condom baby. My mother used both, and hello here I am.

I don't think that this is an issue that will ever be cut and dry, nor do I think that abortion will ever be made illegal. I will be satisfied when women are educated about the fact that it isn't their only option, and when they understand every possible option. (Some are, some aren't.)

I believe that the psychotic protestors are on the WAY wrong path. The way that I live my belief that abortion is wrong is to tell others of my experiences, I only go to doctors that do not perform abortions, (yes I ask) and I volunteer at the crisis pregnancy center. If a woman has gone through counseling and still wants to have an abortion, I go with her and hold her hand so at least she isn't alone, and to be there for her if she changes her mind.

[AGDee]

- I am pro choice. I don't think that we should be making choices for others.

-Even sterilization is not 100% effective. I know of at least one woman who got pregant while nursing her 2 month old, 2 months after her husband's vasectomy. (She didn't abort, but I wouldn't blame her if she had! The woman had 3 kids in 3 years!)

-It is completely unrealistic to expect married couples who don't want (more) children to not have sex. Abstinence might be a good answer for college students, but not for all women in all situations.

-One of the most disturbed kids I ever worked with in child psych was a 7 year old who was the product of a gang rape ... he knew it. Even if a child who is the product of rape is adopted out, by forcing that woman to complete that pregnancy, changing her entire lifestyle, forcing her to go through the pain and trauma of labor, dealing with people asking questions about her pregnancy or passing judgment on her for being pregnant, making her to re-live that rape every day until that child is born is cruel punishment to a victim. Then she also gets to worry that this child will find her someday, after she has worked so hard to get through the emotional trauma of the whole situation, she might have to then explain it to her husband and kids. Isn't it enough that she has to deal with the original trauma?

-Although I've had two kids, my primary care doctor still refuses to authorize a tubal ligation for me, because I'm divorced and might get married again and want a baby with my new husband. This, in spite of the fact that I'm on some really scary medications for Crohn's which state that I must prove I'm on birth control before a doc can prescribe them! Get a new primary care doc is the standard answer.. this is next to impossible when you need referrals for things every two weeks. I'm stuck with her until I don't need a specialist's care so frequently (which is quite possibly, never!)

- I left one Catholic church where the priest was organizing some of these psychotic protests at the local WomanCare. That clinic happened to be the place where all the college women went for their routine gynecological visits because it was only $4 a visit. Not everybody going into one of these establishments is going there for an abortion. Some are going for birth control, some are just going for pap smears. Those protesters make me sick.

That's it for now, I think!

Dee

[justamom]

My earlier response was a little harsh and I am sorry about that.

Insurance will not cover unnecessary prcedures-you will have to pay for it out of your pocket.

The chances are slim that the vas won't take. So, if you would have an abortion ANYway, what's the problem? It's a means to avoid it isn't it? NO medical procedure comes with a 100% guarantee.

There are so many incidents where a "couple" decides they never want children. Then tragedy hits and one dies. The person remaining moves on and finds another love who DOES want children...

I am unsure if any legal ramifications exist for a Doctor who performs such operations without psychological evaluation. They may be vulnerable somehow. (Where are the legal eagles?)

This is one of those issues that people may never find common ground.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by justamom
My earlier response was a little harsh and I am sorry about that.

Insurance will not cover unnecessary prcedures-you will have to pay for it out of your pocket.

The chances are slim that the vas won't take. So, if you would have an abortion ANYway, what's the problem? It's a means to avoid it isn't it? NO medical procedure comes with a 100% guarantee.

There are so many incidents where a "couple" decides they never want children. Then tragedy hits and one dies. The person remaining moves on and finds another love who DOES want children...

I am unsure if any legal ramifications exist for a Doctor who performs such operations without psychological evaluation. They may be vulnerable somehow. (Where are the legal eagles?)

This is one of those issues that people may never find common ground.

That's why, although a vasectomy is easier than a tubal, I'd probably get fixed instead of Mr. valkyrie -- I know that I never, ever, ever want children no matter what, but maybe he would someday if we weren't together and he was with someone who desperately wanted them.

I'd get a tubal tomorrow if I had health insurance that covered it or the money. Unfortunately, I have neither health insurance nor money right now, so it's not going to happen. I don't know about the legal ramifications for doctors -- personally, I don't think there should be any legal risks for a doctor who performs a sterilization on someone who requests it. I know I'd have a hard time finding someone to do the operation since I haven't had kids -- from all I've heard, it's much more difficult for a woman without kids to get sterilized than for a man. Lovely.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by valkyrie
...from all I've heard, it's much more difficult for a woman without kids to get sterilized than for a man. Lovely.

Now I don't know this for a fact, but I am assuming it's because a vasectomy is more easily reversible.

[godfrey n. glad]

Originally posted by valkyrie

I'd get a tubal tomorrow if I had health insurance that covered it or the money. Unfortunately, I have neither health insurance nor money right now, so it's not going to happen.

This is so true. I had a friend who recently was going to get a tubal ligation. She's in her mid-30s and has had a child, so she finally, after 6 months of meeting with the doctor, got approved to do it (you have to be really persistent if you want to do this!). Her health insurance was even going to cover it. Then, she found out, even after health insurance "covering it" she had a co-pay of $1500!!!! Unfortunately, that was so unexpected and beyond her means that after all that, she wasn't able to get the surgery.

I also have met with doctors, as I indicated before, but they basically laughed in my face. They were somewhat sympathetic to my plight, actually, but they basically said, "It ain't gonna happen."

Re: vasectomies being reversible. What you say makes sense. However, I would point out that, as I have been doing some reading lately, I have learned that the success rate for reversal of vasectomies decreases sharply as time goes by. I believe I read that if it's not done within three years, the success rate drops off (or maybe it was 7?). This is why they often resist doing vasectomies for males still in their 20s. Even if you're in your late 20s, 7 years later, you are still young enough to have lots of babies, and change your mind! And if you change your mind then, it might be too late. I'm not sure about the liability an individual physician incurs, and it doesn't seem fair anyway, but ethically, if I was a physician, even knowing myself, I still wouldn't do it, knwoing that some people WILL change their minds, and I would have taken away their opportunity to choose.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Now I don't know this for a fact, but I am assuming it's because a vasectomy is more easily reversible.

I think that's part of it, but I think that society's obsession with women wanting to have kids is part of it too. It seems really, really hard for many people to believe that there are women who have no desire for children -- people say things like "You'll change your mind" or "Someday you'll meet the right man and want to have his babies" or "All women want children" -- crap like that annoys me to no end.

[DZHBrown]

I don't think it's an issue about women's rights. If it was consensual sex, then it is as just as much a man's issue as it is a woman's. If we can slap a man with all kinds of child support once the child is born, then they should have some right to what is equally their child before it is born. We don't have the right to take a child away from its father when it's born, so we shouldn't beforehand, either.

[mrblonde]

^ all Im saying.

[AlphaGamDiva]

oooooh!! pick me! pick me!

i am pro-life, and i am pro-pill, pro-condom, pro-all that!!! :) bring on the sex-ed classes that show herpes, warts, the clap.....all that! scare the hoo-hah outta ppl! you have to know ALL the facts (or you NEED to know) b/4 engaging in sexual activity. i'm all for brown bag specials and free birth control pills......i'm just not all for abortion AS birth control.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by DZHBrown
I don't think it's an issue about women's rights. If it was consensual sex, then it is as just as much a man's issue as it is a woman's. If we can slap a man with all kinds of child support once the child is born, then they should have some right to what is equally their child before it is born. We don't have the right to take a child away from its father when it's born, so we shouldn't beforehand, either.

I'm not sure how it's just as much a man's issue as it is a woman's. The man doesn't have to carry the baby for nine months. He doesn't have to deal with the irreversible changes to his body and emotions. He doesn't have to deal with the emotional scars of adoption or abortion. He CAN just run off and not pay child support if he wants to. There aren't a bunch of single dads out there trying to raise kids on their own because their wives ran off.

Although personally I think that if a guy can prove that he told his girlfriend that he would want her to get an abortion if she got pregnant (hmmm, sex contracts, anyone?) and that he would pay for half of the abortion, I DON'T think we should be able to force him to pay child support. Just as I think it's unfair to force a woman to support a child she knew she didn't want, I don't think it's fair to do the same thing to the men.

[chideltjen]

i haven't read all 170 some odd posts, but here is my stance.

I am pro-choice to an extent. I don't think ladies should be going around and sleeping with everyone without protection and then if they get pregnant, they have abortions... multiple times.

However, I swing more toward the pro-choice side when the mother's life is in danger. To have abortions done away with completely may not leave this option open for high risk mothers and potential mothers, like myself. I can't have an unplanned pregnacy. It would be harmful to me and very harmful to the future child. However, if my life was in danger for having a child, I would not have the child. I would rather stop the pregnancy and adopt one of the zillions of children that need a home than to pass away from child birth and have my child grow up without a mother/family.

[cashmoney]

pro-choice

[krazy]

This might be a bit off-topic, but tell me this... Why can't someone be considered a feminist w/out having to believe in abortion? I mean, why has an obscure medical procedure become the defining factor for women's rights? I happen to be anti-abortion, but I am all for women's rights, so where do I stand?

[justamom]

Originally posted by krazy
This might be a bit off-topic, but tell me this... Why can't someone be considered a feminist w/out having to believe in abortion? I mean, why has an obscure medical procedure become the defining factor for women's rights? I happen to be anti-abortion, but I am all for women's rights, so where do I stand?

You stand with many, MANY women who share your feelings.
It doesn't have to be all or none-even though it's an arguable point. You are part of a crowd called independent thinkers.

This isn't a topic like piercings or even premarital sex. Most of those who are against it, deeply believe it is ending a child's life.

Sometimes I wonder, when that special day comes, who all will say-

"We're having a fetus!"

[valkyrie]

Women's rights include the right to choose. I don't think anyone can be "all for women's rights" if he would try to dictate that she can't have an abortion.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Women's rights include the right to choose. I don't think anyone can be "all for women's rights" if he would try to dictate that she can't have an abortion.

What else does women's rights include?

-Rudey

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by krazy
This might be a bit off-topic, but tell me this... Why can't someone be considered a feminist w/out having to believe in abortion?

I think you can be a feminist and say that an abortion may not be the best decision for yourself. When someone starts saying that other women do not have the right to choose what is best for themselves and their bodies, I don't consider that person a feminist. Just my opinion although I know many won't agree.

[KSigkid]

Don't like the idea of abortions, but I don't believe the choice should be taken away. So...pro choice.

[justamom]

What I find hard to understand is how some people are against the death penalty and yet pro choice. It really does seem to be a contradiction. IMHO, there is a better argument for being for the death penalty and against abortion than pro abortion and against the death penalty.:confused: ...unless you want to get into the viable life discussion-then, you've just come full circle yet again.

[damasa]

Originally posted by justamom
What I find hard to understand is how some people are against the death penalty and yet pro choice. It really does seem to be a contradiction. IMHO, there is a better argument for being for the death penalty and against abortion than pro abortion and against the death penalty.:confused: ...unless you want to get into the viable life discussion-then, you've just come full circle yet again.

I also find it hard to understand how people can be for the death penalty and against abortion. Then you have people like Paul Hill that take the law into their own hands and kill a doctor for performing abortions and a bodyguard who was simply protecting his client.

I don't honestly feel there is a better argument for either position simply because from a religious standpoint I dont' think we should be able to dictate punishment in the form of vengeance or retribution.

When innocent people die in both situations no argument should exist at all. Of course, my opinion.

[Ginger]

Originally posted by damasa
I also find it hard to understand how people can be for the death penalty and against abortion.

I can't claim to speak for everyone, but for me it's pretty simple.

The person on death row did something wrong. Probably a lot of things wrong.

The unborn child hasn't done anything.

The person on death row had a choice in his/her destiny. He/she could have chosen not to commit those crimes.

The child didn't have a choice in being concieved.

[damasa]

Originally posted by Ginger
I can't claim to speak for everyone, but for me it's pretty simple.

The person on death row did something wrong. Probably a lot of things wrong.

The unborn child hasn't done anything.

The person on death row had a choice in his/her destiny. He/she could have chosen not to commit those crimes.

The child didn't have a choice in being concieved.

So you mean to tell me that everyone that has been sentenced to death or has been on death row was guilty? They were all bad people?

Have you or anyone else you know ever been accused of something you didn't do?

And people on death row don't always have a choice in choosing their destiny. If they did not commit any crimes (does happen) their destiny is not for their own choosing...

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by damasa
Have you or anyone else you know ever been accused of something you didn't do?


I'm guessing that most people who are pro-death penalty would answer "no" to this question. White middle class people don't often have worries about being falsely accused of crimes and wrongly convicted. It's too bad really.

[justamom]

Well, what I was trying (in a clumsy way) was to show how it really boils down to valuing life.

Important point here-I would never judge a person who has chosen to have an abortion, it's not my place. Just because I am against the act does not mean I condemn the person who has chosen that route. I think there's enough inner turmoil around that decision no outside criticism is warranted or necessary.

Damasa-When innocent people die in both situations no argument should exist at all. Of course, my opinion.
This is an excellent point. It cuts both ways.

Religion-Upon fertilization, the baby has a soul.
Science-viable
Pro-choice-the extreme would be the freedom to kill the baby anytime the mother chooses. (Partial birth abortions)
Question-At what point -outside the health of the mother-is it NOT OK to kill a baby?

Side note-seems many pro-choice people in the news also support PETA. Hmmmmmmmmm

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by justamom
Side note-seems many pro-choice people in the news also support PETA. Hmmmmmmmmm

I don't understand why this is a problem. I'm a pro-choice vegetarian who is against the death penalty.

[krazy]

Well, I don't believe in the death penalty, but I digress from that argument...

Well according to the March for Women's Lives, the term "Women's Rights" incorporates quite a few things...

We won't get into that because it is too OT...

I do not judge any woman who decides to do this; in fact I try not to judge anyone for anything. That said, I cannot act like I do not think this action is wrong. That is my point... I feel as though I am viewed as a chauvinist b/c I do not believe in abortion.

I am sorry; I think it is morally wrong. I am not saying that I feel everyone has to have my moral beliefs, but I cannot say that I will feel it is okay for others to do this when I feel it is quite wrong.
It would be much easier for me to just agree, and I have thought about it, but my conscience will not let me.

So does it come down to either being Pro-Choice or being religious? Why am I closed minded for choosing my side? I feel as though I have thought about this until my brain has bled. Maybe I am just having a catharsis here, but I feel like this is actually a good forum for this debate.

[swissmiss04]

Originally posted by Rudey
What else does women's rights include?

-Rudey

Wow that's another thread! :)

[justamom]

First, I still want to know when is it NOT OK to kill the baby???

Now, PETA and abortion
Partial Birth Abortions have been proven to the satisfaction of many scientists to induce pain. It is still controversial at how early a point the baby feels pain.
A pain expert claims that a form of late-term abortion, banned under a new federal law, would cause a 20-week-old fetus to suffer "severe and excruciating" pain.

"Into the mind unborn" - A Summary New Scientist 19 October 1996, p 40Premature babies can be kept alive from as young as 24 weeks. There is thus a significant overlap between late fetuses and early infants. It remains unclear to what extent reflex reactions or incresed hormone levels indicate a subjective experience of pain.

From Peta Home page-

1.Compare that to-"Commando Chicks. They’re trying to stop the year-round killing of 9 billion birds who are sensitive, feeling beings, just like dogs and cats."..."Warning! This package contains the decomposing corpse of a small, tortured bird," at supermarkets everywhere.
2.(Farmed animals)...they suffer from extreme forms of abuse and neglect, from intensive confinement to forced starvation to body mutilations like debeaking, castration and dehorning without painkillers.
3.PETA has always maintained the commonsense idea that fish, like every other animal, can feel pain and suffer. Now, findings from a new study conducted by Edinburgh University and the Roslin Institute in the U.K. have proved exactly that.
4.Federal law says that in slaughterhouses, cows, pigs, and lambs must be stunned before their throats are slit, (PETA call for a boycott)... to ensure that animals killed for its stores are not grossly abused.
5.Their video-Chew on This-...Not only does vegetarianism spare billions of animals from horrific suffering, it also spares your waistline.

Too bad PETA doesn't give a rat's behind about the suffering of unborn babies, they appear to be pretty effective.

[swissmiss04]

PETA's purpose isn't to advocate for unborn children. It exists to advocate for animals. There are plenty of anti-abortion orgs out there. Why should it be PETA's job?

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by justamom
Too bad PETA doesn't give a rat's behind about the suffering of unborn babies, they appear to be pretty effective.

JAM I adore you but...

Honestly, I'm not a member of PETA but I don't give a rat's behind about the suffering of "unborn babies" either. Maybe that sounds cruel and heartless but that's fine with me. I care about the women who don't want to have a child -- they shouldn't be forced to do it against their will, period. What about their suffering? If this is about suffering, I can't think of many things that would be worse than being forced to carry a parasite around for nine months of misery -- and yes, that's exactly what a fetus is to a woman who doesn't want it.

You know, I'm morally opposed to eating meat, so I don't do it. Mr. valkyrie doesn't do it either and I don't think I could ever be in a relationship with someone who did. Maybe for fun I'll start going to restaurants and holding up pictures of bloody cows when other people are eating meat. Maybe I'll get my friends together to block Outback Steakhouse and taunt the people going there. Or wait, maybe I'll realize that my view is my view and I'll leave other people alone and let them live their own lives and make their own decisions -- even though I find their behavior morally reprehensible. That's a novel idea, isn't it?

[justamom]

Valkyrie-Or wait, maybe I'll realize that my view is my view and I'll leave other people alone and let them live their own lives and make their own decisions -- even though I find their behavior morally reprehensible. That's a novel idea, isn't it?

Best point made on the thread.

We all have our passions. Can you tell this is one of mine?:)

Actually, you triggered a flashback to the 60's and remind me of a song from "Hair".

MY CONVICTION
You know, kids; I wish every mom and dad would make a speech to their teenagers and say "Kids, be free, be whatever you are, do whatever you want to do, just so long as you don't hurt anybody. And remember kids, I am your friend."

I used to live and die by some of the philosophy this musical imparted. If nothing more-maybe by this discussion, lurkers and interested parties will really think about behavior and consequences-choices and ramifications. So, by playing our parts
I figure we ALL did good!

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by justamom
If nothing more-maybe by this discussion, lurkers and interested parties will really think about behavior and consequences-choices and ramifications. So, by playing our parts
I figure we ALL did good!

Good point! :)