Obama's bow to the Saudi King

[PhiGam]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/deadlineusa/2009/apr/09/usa-g20

How does everyone on here feel about it? I know the White House claims that he didn't bow but watching the video I just can't see any other explanation for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEUif1--r38&feature=related

The bow itself doesn't offend me nearly as much as the White House blatantly lying about it and saying that he was bending down to shake the hand of someone shorter. Either he was shaking the left hand of a midget who is invisible in the video while simultaneously shaking the right hand of the Saudi King or we were all lied to.

I simply don't understand why the White House has lied about this and two days ago angrily dismissed a reporter's question about it. Bowing to a foreign dignitary violates State Department protocol but I don't think that's serious enough to lie about.

[DaemonSeid]

Hard to really tell from the angle but I don't see the big deal.

This is as bad a Michelle hugging the Queen...I mean really, people, is it that deep!!!

What we should be mad about is that for an Ipod full of (hopefully DRMed) music all he got in return was a picture!

Hehe!

[LucyKKG]

Umm he definitely bowed, and his left hand was nowhere near the floor. I guess I can understand how it violates protocol, even though other countries would see it as a sign of respect. That was a definite bow, though...

[Kevlar281]

We don’t dip our flag to other countries and our president should not be bowing to “royalty.”

[KSigkid]

Eh, not such a big deal to me. But, people have always made big deals of little mistakes by Presidents; heck, people were all over the last President Bush's verbal gaffes. It's just what comes with being President, everything's under the microscope.

[honeychile]

An American citizen does not bow to any foreign leader; the American Flag does not dip to any foreign power.

In response, no one touches the Queen of England. Have you never seen when Prince Charles was a child, and bowed to his mother, as she disembarked from a plane? It's just not done. The bob of the head that the Obamas gave to the Queen were, IMHO, appropriate and not over the top.

In all honesty, I have serious doubts about the current Protocol Office. I think Big Bird has a better idea of protocol than they do.

The only other option is that the Protocol Office's advice is being steadily ignored. If that's the case, maybe we should save some money and fire them all.

[PhiGam]

I agree that he definitely bowed but WHY did the White House LIE about it?

That is what bothers me more than the bow itself (which bothers me). I mean of all of the foreign leaders to bow to... the King of Saudi Arabia shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the list for so many reasons.

[DaemonSeid]

wait...didnt they do a bow before the Queen last week?

where was the outrage then?

The only people I see getting seriously bent out of shape over this are the conservatives

maybe a shoe throw will balance things out a bit

Time's explanation (http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/04/10/why-obamas-saudi-bow-was-not-a-kow-tow/?xid=rss-topstories)

You want to talk about a real snub?

Obama will not throw out the first pitch at the Nats opener next week as he is 'preparing' for a trip...and is a White Sox fan.

This is a great insult to the "Nation's Team"

[RU OX Alum]

wait...didnt they do a bow before the Queen last week?

where was the outrage then?

two posts above yours

and PhiGam, the white house lies because the white lies

You notice it because it's not your guy in there, so you're more objective now, but soon you'll learn that they all lie.

[DaemonSeid]

two posts above yours

and PhiGam, the white house lies because the white lies

You notice it because it's not your guy in there, so you're more objective now, but soon you'll learn that they all lie.

Thanks as per usual...;)

And in the article it stated how Bush gave an inappropiate handshake to Abdullah years ago...so...?

What's the problem?

BTW approx 20,000 fewer people applied for unemployment last week

[PM_Mama00]

Thanks as per usual...;)

And in the article it stated how Bush gave an inappropiate handshake to Abdullah years ago...so...?

What's the problem?

BTW approx 20,000 fewer people applied for unemployment last week

That's cuz people are moving out of Michigan and finding jobs in flourishing cities/states. Our unemployment increases by the thousands. I still don't see anything happening with that, just more foreclosures.

[KSigkid]

Thanks as per usual...;)

And in the article it stated how Bush gave an inappropiate handshake to Abdullah years ago...so...?

What's the problem?

BTW approx 20,000 fewer people applied for unemployment last week

Like I said, people get bent out of shape when they think the President wasn't following proper protocol or tradition. They've done it with past Presidents, and they're going to do it with the current President.

People were all over Bush when they thought he made a verbal gaffe or breached custom in another country....I think you may have even posted in a couple of those threads. ;)

Unfortunately, it just comes with the job.

As for the unemployment figures, that's great; at the end of the day, President Obama will get more credit than he deserves or more blame than he deserves for the economic cycles, just like every other President.

[agzg]

You want to talk about a real snub?

Obama will not throw out the first pitch at the Nats opener next week as he is 'preparing' for a trip...and is a White Sox fan.

This is a great insult to the "Nation's Team"

Obama's a White Sox fan? Seriously? For whatever reason I would have pegged him for a Cubbies fan.

[preciousjeni]

Bowing to a foreign dignitary violates State Department protocol but I don't think that's serious enough to lie about.
If that's the case, he should be reprimanded in some way. However, I don't have a problem with an American actually showing some deference and respect.

[PM_Mama00]

If that's the case, he should be reprimanded in some way. However, I don't have a problem with an American actually showing some deference and respect.

An American citizen does not bow to any foreign leader; the American Flag does not dip to any foreign power.

In response, no one touches the Queen of England. Have you never seen when Prince Charles was a child, and bowed to his mother, as she disembarked from a plane? It's just not done. The bob of the head that the Obamas gave to the Queen were, IMHO, appropriate and not over the top.

In all honesty, I have serious doubts about the current Protocol Office. I think Big Bird has a better idea of protocol than they do.

The only other option is that the Protocol Office's advice is being steadily ignored. If that's the case, maybe we should save some money and fire them all.



.

[PeppyGPhiB]

If that's the case, he should be reprimanded in some way. However, I don't have a problem with an American actually showing some deference and respect.

Reprimanded by who? No one is above the president...that's why people are getting upset. However, I believe the president is making a point of showing that he will not take orders from anyone, let alone a "protocol office," when he believes in doing things a certain way. I don't think that's necessarily right...things he perhaps sees as no big deal, yet become big distractions, could avoid some controversay if he would just listen to some folks' advice.

I did notice the bow - more like a slight bend at the waist rather than a full bow I'd say - when I first saw the video a week or so ago. For a full second I thought, "Hm, that's not really right," but then I dismissed it as not a big deal. Obama is trying to show respect for other world leaders, and greeting them in the way they are probably greeted by others normally is his way of showing them respect. If people watched the whole video, they'd notice that he said a few words in arabic to the saudi king, also. I'd like to see how he greets the Japanese contingent, because even business leaders are bowed to there.

Bottom line: I would rather have a president who attempts to relate to or honor other countries' customs when in their presence than a president who ignores or insults their culture through ignorance. But that's why I find some of the slights of protocol interesting - Obama goes out of his way to acknowledge the Saudi king in a way he's accustomed to, yet Michelle Obama basically hugs the queen like she's an old chum. It just seems like they would know better than that; perhaps they're getting carried away at some of these events, let their guard down, and forget what they've been "trained" to do. They ARE new at this.

[DiamondAthena]

Reprimanded by who? No one is above the president...that's why people are getting upset. However, I believe the president is making a point of showing that he will not take orders from anyone, let alone a "protocol office," when he believes in doing things a certain way. I don't think that's necessarily right...things he perhaps sees as no big deal, yet become big distractions, could avoid some controversay if he would just listen to some folks' advice.

I did notice the bow - more like a slight bend at the waist rather than a full bow I'd say - when I first saw the video a week or so ago. For a full second I thought, "Hm, that's not really right," but then I dismissed it as not a big deal. Obama is trying to show respect for other world leaders, and greeting them in the way they are probably greeted by others normally is his way of showing them respect. If people watched the whole video, they'd notice that he said a few words in arabic to the saudi king, also. I'd like to see how he greets the Japanese contingent, because even business leaders are bowed to there.

Bottom line: I would rather have a president who attempts to relate to or honor other countries' customs when in their presence than a president who ignores or insults their culture through ignorance. But that's why I find some of the slights of protocol interesting - Obama goes out of his way to acknowledge the Saudi king in a way he's accustomed to, yet Michelle Obama basically hugs the queen like she's an old chum. It just seems like they would know better than that; perhaps they're getting carried away at some of these events, let their guard down, and forget what they've been "trained" to do. They ARE new at this.

I agree. Neither "breech" of protocol bothers me so much as the stark contrasts of the two; Obamas bow vs. Michelles hug.... Lets just get on one accord ppl, please.

[PhiGam]

wait...didnt they do a bow before the Queen last week?

where was the outrage then?


No, he did not bow to the queen. But you somehow don't think that he bowed to the King of SA either...

[DaemonSeid]

No, he did not bow to the queen. But you somehow don't think that he bowed to the King of SA either...
And I somehow dont think this thread is useful anymore also

PeppyG hit it on the nail

[epchick]

An American citizen does not bow to any foreign leader; the American Flag does not dip to any foreign power.


I have a question, are you being serious with this remark? My sarcasto-meter has been off lately, so I don't know if this is some kind of joke, or if you seriously think that an American citizen shouldn't bow to a foreign leader.

[PhiGam]

I have a question, are you being serious with this remark? My sarcasto-meter has been off lately, so I don't know if this is some kind of joke, or if you seriously think that an American citizen shouldn't bow to a foreign leader.
That is actually protocol... while I'm not sure how I feel about ordinary citizens, I definitely don't think that the President should bow to any foreign leader.
To me a bow is a sign of subjection and submission... so bowing to such a horrible man is disgraceful. Saudi Arabia enforces sexist Shari'a laws, if Obama did not bow to the emperor of Japan or the leaders of the EU nations then he definitely shouldn't have bowed to this asshole.

[epchick]

That is actually protocol... while I'm not sure how I feel about ordinary citizens, I definitely don't think that the President should bow to any foreign leader.
To me a bow is a sign of subjection and submission... so bowing to such a horrible man is disgraceful. Saudi Arabia enforces sexist Shari'a laws, if Obama did not bow to the emperor of Japan or the leaders of the EU nations then he definitely shouldn't have bowed to this asshole.

Well I can understand it being protocol for the President (although there are times that I don't agree with it). I was more concerned cause honeychile said "citizen" and that is what I don't agree with.

[DaemonSeid]

How Leonides Dealt with Submission (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I)

[RU OX Alum]

I don't think a bow to the Emperor of Japan would be that out of line.

Don't really feel comfortable with what I saw in that video though.

[PM_Mama00]

Has he been treating other leaders with the same "respect" that he treated Saudi's King? I haven't really read anything about it.

[DaemonSeid]

Has he been treating other leaders with the same "respect" that he treated Saudi's King? I haven't really read anything about it.

Either way, It can't be ruled out that now he doesn't have any foreign relations experience...LOL

[Munchkin03]

We're still talking about this?

[PM_Mama00]

On the morning talk show on our local rock station, they were discussing this. More people were pissed off that the White House lied and said he didn't bow, than the fact that he did.

Some called in with excuses for it. Lol one lady thinks he farted. One thinks that he had bad stomach cramping. Obviously they weren't being serious.

[dekeguy]

Heads of State do not "kow tow" to each other. A "court bow" (quick inclination of the head but not the shoulders) is the way it should be done. It conveys respect while the deep bow suggests subservience, which is why State Department Protocol advises against it.
The President is our Head of State so it was just an unfortunate faux pas. The intricate nature of diplomatic nuances is confusing enough to professional diplomats. The President is really new to this specific aspect of political life so there is a learning curve to be surmounted. I am confident he did not mean to imply subservience so he just needs better briefers to explain the nuances and not just try to tell him what to do.
Some time back I had the opportunity to meet several members of the British Royal Family on a few occasions when I was stationed in the UK. When I was presented to HM the first time I was in uniform so I came to attention and saluted. She nodded in return and seeing my Cavalry insignia asked if I rode. I replied that unfortunately I was serving with an armored cavalry regiment and there were very few opportunities for proper riding. Very informal yet in a very formal setting.
The second time was at Oxford. I was in civilian clothes so I stood straight, gave a quick nod of my head and waited until she extended her hand. Much to my surprise she asked me if I had found the opportunity to ride a bit since our last conversation. I did not see anyone prompt her and I was amazed that she remembered a brief conversation from several months earlier. Then, to finish me off completely, HRH Prince Philip cut in and suggested that perhaps something could be arranged for me to ride "whilst" at Oxford. He then asked if I had my "kit" with me or should he have his equerry organise something suitable.
Needless to say I was amazed and completely snowed. But then again, they have been at the game for many many years and know just how to stay formal while putting everyone at ease.

OK, bottom line. I didn't like seeing the President bow so low to a foreign head of state, but two things occur to me. First, let's cut him some slack, he has a lot to pick up on while running the country in a time of great challenges. Second, he is the President and while I hope he doesn't do this sort of thing all the time I figure he can set the rules since he IS the President.

[PhiGam]

I don't think a bow to the Emperor of Japan would be that out of line.

Don't really feel comfortable with what I saw in that video though.
I agree with you 100%. Because of the history and tradition surrounding the Japanese emperor and the fact that Japan is very friendly and open economically with our country I would also be OK with that.

We're still talking about this?

Yes, I know its blasphemous to talk about the all-powerful savior Obama but some of us don't appreciate being lied to or our leader bowing to such a horrible man.

[Munchkin03]

Yes, I know its blasphemous to talk about the all-powerful savior Obama but some of us don't appreciate being lied to or our leader bowing to such a horrible man.

Seriously? You don't have a clue about my political leanings. I just don't believe in beating a dead horse.

[PhiGam]

Seriously? You don't have a clue about my political leanings. I just don't believe in beating a dead horse.
So keep bumping the thread... that will change everything.

[starang21]

Eh, not such a big deal to me. But, people have always made big deals of little mistakes by Presidents; heck, people were all over the last President Bush's verbal gaffes. It's just what comes with being President, everything's under the microscope.

pretty much.

the dems had a field day with bush for 8 years.

the reeps will do the same with obama.

there are bigger things in life, and he's still the president.

"September 4th 2001. I stood in the ruins of the twin towers. It is a day i will never forget."

"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

no amount of bowing will EVER make up for these two gems.

[PhiGam]

pretty much.

the dems had a field day with bush for 8 years.

the reeps will do the same with obama.

there are bigger things in life, and he's still the president.

"September 4th 2001. I stood in the ruins of the twin towers. It is a day i will never forget."

"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

no amount of bowing will EVER make up for these two gems.
Bush's verbal gaffes were funny, this is not.

[starang21]

Bush's verbal gaffes were funny, this is not.

he hardly did them for entertainment. he is an idiot. obama made a mistake (if you want to call it that). big difference.

[PhiGam]

he hardly did them for entertainment. he is an idiot. obama made a mistake (if you want to call it that). big difference.
So Bush's mistakes in which he unintentionally either mis-spoke or said a sentence that sounded funny make him an idiot. An idiot with degrees from both Harvard and Yale I might add.

Obama's "mistake" in which he intentionally bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia is ok though.

You are right about one thing- there IS a big difference.

[DaemonSeid]

So Bush's mistakes in which he unintentionally either mis-spoke or said a sentence that sounded funny make him an idiot. An idiot with degrees from both Harvard and Yale I might add.

Obama's "mistake" in which he intentionally bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia is ok though.

You are right about one thing- there IS a big difference.

Just because one has an Ivy League education doesn't make them any less of an idiot.

Why are you still harping on this?

You got another 4 years to catalog Obama's gaffes if you so desire...let this one go.

[starang21]

So Bush's mistakes in which he unintentionally either mis-spoke or said a sentence that sounded funny make him an idiot. An idiot with degrees from both Harvard and Yale I might add.

Obama's "mistake" in which he intentionally bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia is ok though.

You are right about one thing- there IS a big difference.

there are plenty of "idiots" with degrees with harvard and yale. bush was a repeat offender. if you really want, one could go through 8 years of political gaffes. it's ok if you dislike obama, but your severe bias is showing.

i never said obama's mistake was ok. however, i'm not getting bent out of shape because of it. i don't think you want to compare obama's and bush's educational records. one is a lesson in mediocrity, the other isn't.

[starang21]

Why are you still harping on this?

because he's being petty and attempting to "get back" at the democrats.

[Kevin]

PhiGam, why do you hate America?

[MysticCat]

. . . but some of us don't appreciate being lied to . . . .Oh, I didn't catch that we had moved to talking about weapons of mass destruction.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[TexasWSP]

If you actually spent time with Bush and talked to him you would realize that he is not an "idiot". Great personality, great storyteller. Can work a room better than anyone.

Carry on.

[honeychile]

Too many people have died so that US citizens wouldn't have to bow to any foreign power. The head bob that both of the Obamas gave to the Queen was appropriate, and not offensive. The bowing to the Saudi King will almost definitely come back to bite the President in the behind.

[DaemonSeid]

If you actually spent time with Bush and talked to him you would realize that he is not an "idiot". Great personality, great storyteller. Can work a room better than anyone.

Carry on.

No, he just plays one on TV.

[OtterXO]

If you actually spent time with Bush and talked to him you would realize that he is not an "idiot". Great personality, great storyteller. Can work a room better than anyone.



I don't see how any of those qualities or abilities make him not an idiot. They just make him good with people.

[MysticCat]

The bowing to the Saudi King will almost definitely come back to bite the President in the behind.I doubt it.

[Munchkin03]

The bowing to the Saudi King will almost definitely come back to bite the President in the behind.

How? I feel like if it hasn't now, when will it? 2012?

[RU OX Alum]

^^It will be something people remember if he screws up again.

Why are we talking about Bush? He isn't the president anymore, and I doubt he lives in Saudi Arabia now.

[TexasWSP]

I don't see how any of those qualities or abilities make him not an idiot. They just make him good with people.


Ummmmm........well in my experience its pretty easy to tell if someone is an idiot when you can talk to them one on one, spend time with them and his family, and listen to him amongst groups of people.

Every word a President says is scrutinized. Making a few verbal gaffes does not/and should not qualify someone as an "idiot."

Idiot =


an utterly foolish or senseless person.
a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.  http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/I00/I0023600)  /ˈɪdhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngət/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pr


Bush is neither.....and I disagreed with him on countless issues and decisions.

Once again, carry on.

[PhiGam]

Too many people have died so that US citizens wouldn't have to bow to any foreign power. The head bob that both of the Obamas gave to the Queen was appropriate, and not offensive. The bowing to the Saudi King will almost definitely come back to bite the President in the behind.
If it does bite him in the ass then its well deserved. A head bob is not a gesture of subservience like a bow is. The King sure as hell didn't return the bow... goes to show how much respect he has for Obama.

[MysticCat]

Every word a President says is scrutinized. Making a few verbal gaffes does not/and should not qualify someone as an "idiot."While I don't fall in the "Bush is an idiot" camp (even though I know quite a few idiots who went to Harvard and Yale and can talk up a room like nobody's business), I have to laugh -- hard -- at "a few verbal gaffes." That's like saying a tornado is a little breeze.

If it does bite him in the ass then its well deserved. A head bob is not a gesture of subservience like a bow is. The King sure as hell didn't return the bow... goes to show how much respect he has for Obama.Well, I could say that one does bow to royalty, but one does not typically bow to presidents. Americans don't bow to the president, why should anyone else think that doing so is a sign of respect?

But it's pretty obvious this has nothing to do with your feelings about the bow itself and everything to do with your feelings about Obama himself.

Just be honest about that or get over it already.

[TexasWSP]

While I don't fall in the "Bush is an idiot" camp (even though I know quite a few idiots who went to Harvard and Yale and can talk up a room like nobody's business), I have to laugh -- hard -- at "a few verbal gaffes." That's like saying a tornado is a little breeze.

Haha, yeah I feel ya.

Look, my family, especially my dad, has had a relationship with the Bush family for 25 years. Pretty much all grew out of the oil business. Dad's best friend's father was, literally, one of H.W.'s closest friends. C. Fred Chambers. He contributed heavily to his campaign, along with bigs from Baker Botts, etc. Fred died a while back....we sat with the Bushes and Chambers family in the church. Taken them fishing, co-hosted parties during various campaigns in Texas, etc. etc. Basically, we know them and they know us. Not like we are buddy-buddy....but you get the picture.

People can think he's an idiot all they want. He made some idiotic decisions. Get him in the right setting and you'll see that he really isn't one.

[MysticCat]

Look, my family, especially my dad, has had a relationship with the Bush family for 25 years. Pretty much all grew out of the oil business. Dad's best friend's father was, literally, one of H.W.'s closest friends. C. Fred Chambers. He contributed heavily to his campaign, along with bigs from Baker Botts, etc. Fred died a while back....we sat with the Bushes and Chambers family in the church. Taken them fishing, co-hosted parties during various campaigns in Texas, etc. etc. Basically, we know them and they know us. Not like we are buddy-buddy....but you get the picture.

People can think he's an idiot all they want. He made some idiotic decisions. Get him in the right setting and you'll see that he really isn't one.I know exactly what you're saying. I think anyone who has had any kind of personal/familial relationship with a prominent public figure, especially a polarizing one, can have a view of that figure that is quite at odds with the view of the random guy on the street. On one hand that may be because the personal/familial relationship can cloud one's objectivity, but at the same time it can give one a much better and more rounded view of the public figure.

[PhiGam]

Well, I could say that one does bow to royalty, but one does not typically bow to presidents. Americans don't bow to the president, why should anyone else think that doing so is a sign of respect?

Why didn't he bow to the Emperor of Japan or the Queen then? They are royalty.

But it's pretty obvious this has nothing to do with your feelings about the bow itself and everything to do with your feelings about Obama himself.

With this logic its not okay for anyone who doesn't like Obama to criticize him. If Bush bowed before the King and then lied about it I would be just as outraged, I assure you. I was upset over the hand holding, and that's nowhere near as bad as this (nor did he lie about it/ deny it.)

[honeychile]

Funny, I was going to add a disclaimer to my post, but deleted it. It went something like this:

It's fairly obvious that I did not vote for Obama. I still think that there are four other people in the United States who are much better qualified to run for President. That said, Obama won, and is our President. I will give him the respect due to him - the respect for the Office of the President of the United States and as a good speaker. I am really trying to go out of my way to say that the Protocol Office may not have properly advised the President about certain situations (such as hugging the Queen).

In other words, I really don't have an axe to grind or an agenda to push - but if he keeps ignoring simple protocol, I will feel free to bash as often as certain posters bashed other Presidents.

There was more, but I haven't slept since Sunday morning, so that will have to do for now.

[MysticCat]

Why didn't he bow to the Emperor of Japan or the Queen then? They are royalty. Has Obama met the Emperor of Japan and I missed it? That said, perhaps its because our diplomatic relations with Japan and the UK are much more stable than our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Perhaps its because, unlike Elizabeth II and Akihito, who are heads of state but not of government, Abdullah actually has power, along with influence throughout a large chunk of the world where we need friends with influence. I don't know.

I'll agree it was inappropriate and unfortunate. But I'm with dekeguy and others on this -- in the grand scheme of things it's just not that big a deal to me.

With this logic its not okay for anyone who doesn't like Obama to criticize him. Not what I said at all, nor would I say it. I simply observed that your comments on the subject, and the tenor of your comments on the subject, suggest that your real beef is with Obama himself. If that's not the case, that's not the case, but that is how it looks to me. 'Course, I'll admit my perception may be faulty because I really can't see much other reason to get too upset over this. Other things, sure; this, not so much.

If Bush bowed before the King and then lied about it I would be just as outraged, I assure you. I was upset over the hand holding, and that's nowhere near as bad as this (nor did he lie about it/ deny it.)So you were bothered by Bush's bow to Pope John Paul II, then?

And serious request: Can you point me to "the lie from the White House"? All I have been able to find is a response (that Obama was stooping to shake the king's hand) attributed to an anonymous aide. I don't think I'd consider that a White House statement, much less a lie from Obama. Is there an actual statement or response from the White House?

[MysticCat]

There was more, but I haven't slept since Sunday morning, so that will have to do for now.Ooo. Hope you're okay.

And for the record, my Jamestown kin (or near kin), it was clear to me that your concern was for proper protocol, pure and simple.

Speaking of protocol, you do know the story about Jackie Kennedy, don't you? When she and President Kennedy met the Queen and Prince Philip, Angier Biddle Duke, Kennedy's chief of protocol, advised Mrs. Kennedy that wives of heads of state do not bow or curtsy to kings and queens. When Mrs. Kennedy received Prince Philip after after Kennedy's funeral, Duke noticed that she curtsied. Knowing that she was stickler for protocol, he expressed his surprise to her. She is said to have responded, "Angie, I'm not the wife of a head of state anymore."

[honeychile]

MysticCat, I've found mostly bloggers' take on the bow, but I do remember hearing about it on NBC. This link (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94500) at least quotes a White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs.

One excerpt that I feel compelled to cite: "But the traditional Miss Manners book of etiquette advises: 'One does not bow or curtsy to a foreign monarch because the gesture symbolizes recognition of her power over her subjects.'"

I have no idea if this source has an agenda or not.

Loved the Jackie Kennedy story!

[MysticCat]

MysticCat, I've found mostly bloggers' take on the bow, but I do remember hearing about it on NBC. This link (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94500) at least quotes a White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs.Thanks. That's more than I had been able to find elsewhere.

And I knew you'd like that story. :D

[PhiGam]

Has Obama met the Emperor of Japan and I missed it? That said, perhaps its because our diplomatic relations with Japan and the UK are much more stable than our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Perhaps its because, unlike Elizabeth II and Akihito, who are heads of state but not of government, Abdullah actually has power, along with influence throughout a large chunk of the world where we need friends with influence. I don't know.

I'll agree it was inappropriate and unfortunate. But I'm with dekeguy and others on this -- in the grand scheme of things it's just not that big a deal to me.

Not what I said at all, nor would I say it. I simply observed that your comments on the subject, and the tenor of your comments on the subject, suggest that your real beef is with Obama himself. If that's not the case, that's not the case, but that is how it looks to me. 'Course, I'll admit my perception may be faulty because I really can't see much other reason to get too upset over this. Other things, sure; this, not so much.

So you were bothered by Bush's bow to Pope John Paul II, then?

And serious request: Can you point me to "the lie from the White House"? All I have been able to find is a response (that Obama was stooping to shake the king's hand) attributed to an anonymous aide. I don't think I'd consider that a White House statement, much less a lie from Obama. Is there an actual statement or response from the White House?
Well, this really does bother me a great deal. I in fact was bothered by Bush's bow to the pope, but that is not the issue in question here.

As for the white house denial: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0409/White_House_No_bow_to_Saudi.html

And here is a week later when the press sec angrily dismissed a question about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/09/obama-bow-to-saudis-cnn-r_n_185281.html

Both links are from liberal sites. God... I hate Huffington and would advise you to only read the quotes.

[MysticCat]

God... I hate Huffington and would advise you to only read the quotes.That really did have me laughing out loud.

The statement that's in Ben Smith's blog is the one I was talking about that comes from an un-named aide, which I don't consider a White House statement, per se. She-who-should-not-be-named's site had the same quote as the story that honeychile linked, which I had missed -- I missed a lot of news last week. That clearly is an official response (or, um, non-response.)

And I call truce -- I accept that you're truly bothered by it. ;)

[DaemonSeid]

"It wasn't a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he's taller than King Abdullah," said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

As quoted from the Politco


Hell, that could have been the janitor saying that.


GIBBS: No, I think he bent over with both, to shake -- with both hands to shake his hand, so I don't--

From The Huff...

wow.

You know what...fuck it...there is really no proof...some of you aren't going to be convinced one way or another...believe whatever the hell you want and move on.

BTW...in some 'real' news...Al Franken won the MN senate seat.

[nate2512]

Okay, for all you "open-minded" people. You're being so close-minded right now it's ridiculous, there is no way in hell our Commander-in-Chief should be bowing to anyone. When we go to war with a country, we don't bow, shake hands with them and wish them luck do we? Our job as America should be use diplomacy when its called for, but at the same time we should the fear of God into everyone else and put them in their place. And I agree with Phi Gam, it's ok to blast bush cause he's a "dumb redneck" from Texas. But forbid we do it to the almighty obama. You people need a reality check.

[PM_Mama00]

I have to agree somewhat with Nate. Some of you are treating Obama like he is some kind of god.

Then again there were some Bush supporters who treated Bush like that too.

[KSigkid]

believe whatever the hell you want and move on.


DS...while I don't think this whole thing was a big deal, you, better than anyone, should know how difficult it is sometimes to "move on" when you think a President did something incorrectly (especially when you didn't vote for that specific President).

But, again, personally I don't see the big deal with any of this.

I have to agree somewhat with Nate. Some of you are treating Obama like he is some kind of god.


I don't see that at all in this thread - I see people disagreeing about the seriousness of this, or even if he bowed at all, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread treat the President like he's a "god."

The simple fact is, there are some people who were all over Bush who aren't going say a bad word about Obama (no matter what), and people who supported Bush who will be all over Obama (no matter what). That's the political climate, take it or leave it.

[starang21]

Some of you are treating Obama like he is some kind of god.

no one is doing that. those people are just being realistic on this issue in relation to bigger things.

[PM_Mama00]

no one is doing that. those people are just being realistic on this issue in relation to bigger things.

I should have mentioned that I was speaking in terms of other threads also. It's like an "Obama can do no wrong" mentality. But I know that there are Bush supporters who do the same. That was my point.

[CutiePie2000]

Bottom line: I would rather have a president who attempts to relate to or honor other countries' customs when in their presence than a president who ignores or insults their culture through ignorance.
Exactly..."When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

I wonder what people will do and say if Obama goes to Japan? Japan definitely does bowing, when two people meet and greet each other.

[DaemonSeid]

Exactly..."When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

I wonder what people will do and say if Obama goes to Japan? Japan definitely does bowing, when two people meet and greet each other.

I think that there is a height differential when bowing amongst your peers...like your status determines how low you should go to acknowledge the other.

[PhiGam]

Yes, its just like in martial arts. The student bows lower to the ground than the teacher and the student must both initiate the bow and wait for the teacher to finish bowing before standing up again. If Obama went to Japan then him and the emperor should bow to approximately equal levels. In Saudi Arabia, he bowed to the King and the King smiled.

[deepimpact2]

It's sad to see people saying that an American leader shouldn't show respect to leaders of other countries. Perhaps that is why the US is held in such contempt around the world. Perhaps this move by OBama to show some respect is why he has such favor around the world with other leaders.

I think American arrogance is about to be nipped int he bud with this new administration and it is refreshing.

As for Michelle and the Queen...seems like most people conveniently want to ignore the fact that the Queen was the one who initiated the "affectionate moment" when she put her arm around Michelle. Michelle simply responded in kind. Perhaps the real issue in all of this is that there is a group of people who just don't want to accept the fact that the Queen showed this particular First Lady more affection than she has ever really shown any other First Lady or leader. I think it is wonderful, and it is just more proof of how much people really like the Obamas.

I would also like to add that one thing that makes the Obamas so popular is how "real" they are. They know when to stick strictly with protocol and when to add just the right personal touch. Again, this kind of thing is refreshing. Sometimes protocol and tradition should be set aside.

[DaemonSeid]

Yes, its just like in martial arts. The student bows lower to the ground than the teacher and the student must both initiate the bow and wait for the teacher to finish bowing before standing up again. If Obama went to Japan then him and the emperor should bow to approximately equal levels. In Saudi Arabia, he bowed to the King and the King smiled.

http://www.pledgepark.com/images/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

I mean really...can we move on now???

[nate2512]

http://www.pledgepark.com/images/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

I mean really...can we move on now???

This is like the one thread EVER that's stayed on topic, come one now.

[DaemonSeid]

This is like the one thread EVER that's stayed on topic, come one now.

True...but the vultures have circled the carcass for some time now...I say let them eat.

[honeychile]

http://www.pledgepark.com/images/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif


Note to self: Save this image if it kills you.

[PhiGam]

http://www.pledgepark.com/images/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

I mean really...can we move on now???
I answered your damn question and then brought it back to topic.

You're welcome.

[PhiGam]

It's sad to see people saying that an American leader shouldn't show respect to leaders of other countries. Perhaps that is why the US is held in such contempt around the world. Perhaps this move by OBama to show some respect is why he has such favor around the world with other leaders.

I think American arrogance is about to be nipped int he bud with this new administration and it is refreshing.


Some of us like the way that America is and don't want their country to be viewed as "equal" to a horrible place like Saudi Arabia.

What has all of this "favor" with world leaders accomplished exactly? He failed to get other countries to pass huge stimulus bills and he failed to get troop commitments to Afghanistan. At least Chavez likes him... :rolleyes:

[DaemonSeid]

I answered your damn question and then brought it back to topic.

You're welcome.

Get it right...I didn't ask the question. I amswered, you co signed.

so Thank YOU....

[AlphaSigOU]

An American citizen does not bow to any foreign leader; the American Flag does not dip to any foreign power.

Except between naval ships of two countries passing each other; the ensign is dipped as they pass, but naval protocol requires the 'dip' to be returned.

[Kevlar281]

Except between naval ships of two countries passing each other; the ensign is dipped as they pass, but naval protocol requires the 'dip' to be returned.

The keyword there is 'returned.' Without actually looking it up I believe the Naval regulation allows US vessels to acknowledge another vessels ensign being dipped. It's just a way of communicating that they've been recognized. In short they dip to us, we don't dip to them.

[nate2512]

The keyword there is 'returned.' Without actually looking it up I believe the Naval regulation allows US vessels to acknowledge another vessels ensign being dipped. It's just a way of communicating that they've been recognized. In short they dip to us, we don't dip to them.

Right, I would think it would be similar to a subordinate saluting a superior. Subordinate salutes, superior acknowledges the salute by returning the same.

[dekeguy]

Right, I would think it would be similar to a subordinate saluting a superior. Subordinate salutes, superior acknowledges the salute by returning the same.

=================

Sort of off subject, but I always pictured the salute not so much as a subordinate to superior thing but rather as a greeting among soldiers. The junior salutes first as a matter of courtesy and custom but I have often initiated the salute to junior troops if I see them first. The very senior officers for whom I have worked suggested that we view it as a private greeting among "the Brotherhood of the Sword" and I have often seen General Officers and Colonels initiating salutes as a greeting, not as a demonstration of superiority.

[deepimpact2]

Some of us like the way that America is and don't want their country to be viewed as "equal" to a horrible place like Saudi Arabia.

What has all of this "favor" with world leaders accomplished exactly? He failed to get other countries to pass huge stimulus bills and he failed to get troop commitments to Afghanistan. At least Chavez likes him... :rolleyes:

Who said anything about the country being viewed as equal? I simply said there is nothing wrong with American leaders showing other world leaders some respect. The fact that you and many others don't even think American leaders should do that speaks volumes. People who are secure don't need to spend time trying to show superiority or disrespect to others they don't agree with. It's called being the bigger person. More people should try it.

[DaemonSeid]

Dear God,

Please let this thread die again.

[TexasWSP]

Who said anything about the country being viewed as equal? I simply said there is nothing wrong with American leaders showing other world leaders some respect. The fact that you and many others don't even think American leaders should do that speaks volumes. People who are secure don't need to spend time trying to show superiority or disrespect to others they don't agree with. It's called being the bigger person. More people should try it.

Quit whining.

There are plenty of ways to "show respect" other than kneeling on the fucking ground to Middle Eastern royalty.

Nobody is saying that the President shouldn't "show respect" towards other world leaders.

[deepimpact2]

Quit whining.

There are plenty of ways to "show respect" other than kneeling on the fucking ground to Middle Eastern royalty.

Nobody is saying that the President shouldn't "show respect" towards other world leaders.
Whining? I'm not the one griping about a silly little bow. I think you statement about whining would best be directed towards those who actually were upset about something that trivial. lol

[TexasWSP]

Whining? I'm not the one griping about a silly little bow. I think you statement about whining would best be directed towards those who actually were upset about something that trivial. lol

Cool.......so I guess you accepted my other comments, realizing that your previous statements were beyond idiotic.

You're sitting here talking about this being "trivial"....yet you take the time to type out full posts, asserting that this was a "move" on the part of Obama to show world leaders that he is "nipping American arrogance in the bud." Shit, you basically asserted that his bow could be a reason why he is in such favor around the world with world leaders.

Looks like it's not a trivial act for you, who agrees with what he did.

It's only trivial for those who are embarrassed and surprised by Lord Savior of America Obama and his World Tour of Appeasement and Apology. I mean shit, all of his ass kissing and gift giving put him in such high favor with world leaders that they denied him stimulus funds, questioned his spending bills during a recession, and denied him troops for the war.

[deepimpact2]

Cool.......so I guess you accepted my other comments, realizing that your previous statements were beyond idiotic.

You're sitting here talking about this being "trivial"....yet you take the time to type out full posts, asserting that this was a "move" on the part of Obama to show world leaders that he is "nipping American arrogance in the bud." Shit, you basically asserted that his bow could be a reason why he is in such favor around the world with world leaders.

Looks like it's not a trivial act for you, who agrees with what he did.

It's only trivial for those who are embarrassed and surprised by Lord Savior of America Obama and his World Tour of Appeasement and Apology. I mean shit, all of his ass kissing and gift giving put him in such high favor with world leaders that they denied him stimulus funds, questioned his spending bills during a recession, and denied him troops for the war.
No, there was nothing idiotic about my statements, but I can't say the same for you. lol And when I use the word trivial, I mean in the sense that the situation was not a big deal, nor was it something that deserved a whole thread of people griping and complaining. He bowed. Good deal. So what? Move on. No harm would come from a quick bow. There are other things that are more newsworthy than Obama just showing respect for another leader. :cool: