Hazing

[James]

The problem is that hazing works . . . PEople realize unconsciously that it works, and therefore will continue to use it as a tool. OH well.

[The1calledTKE]

Yes it does work, but I do agree there should be some limits. I thinks the rules now are crazy but oh well.

[Betarulz!]

Tell me why you would want to go through hell.

True, depending on the activity I could see where hazing would unite a pledge class--if it was one of those things that required some sort of unity to pass. But it immediatly creates a division between actives and pledges, and if gruesome enough a division that can't be conquered later on.

Also, I think that there are good types of hazing--requirements that improve you as a person (community service type stuff) and stuff that makes you proud of your house (cleaning duties--with appropriate tools--not toothbrushes) but the rest of that shit is pointless in my opinion.

Also why would you put up with hazing when everyone knows that other houses don't.

It just seems stupid to me.

[James]

True, but the reality of what we think the world should be and what it is can be vastly different. There are plenty of people who don't mind being hazed . . .

[shadokat]

I agree with Beta in that hazing creates HUGE divisions between pledge classes and the actual brother/sisterhood. I have had friends go through hell during pledging, and end up hating most of the sisters they were gaga over during recruitment. Also, most times if you want to go towards a non-hazing pledge program and you were hazed, most folks aren't going to want it, because of the "They're going through the same hell I did" mindset.

That said, James does have a point. On my campus, nearly every group hazes, and it's pretty well known. My one friend said it was a privilege to do the dishes or clean the bathroom during her pledge program. But most of the rushees expect that they're going to be hazed. They think that they'll be chugging beer, cleaning toilets with toothbrushes and all the other crap that goes along with stereotypes. If it doesn't happen, they're surprised! I don't think this should be an excuse though to continue hazing. I know plenty of strong brother/sisterhoods that continue to flourish with non-hazing pledge programs.

[James]

Right Shadokat, I am in accord with you.

I think SigmaChiCard may have touched on this by looking at some of the psychology/technology of hazing.

So the trick would be, since we all know from trying to quit benign addictions that its easier to replace a negative with something positive, to find positive activities that have the same intensity level as hazing, to emphasize primary group loyalty.

Any ideas folks?

[Artimis]

Originally posted by James
Right Shadokat, I am in accord with you.

I think SigmaChiCard may have touched on this by looking at some of the psychology/technology of hazing.

So the trick would be, since we all know from trying to quit benign addictions that its easier to replace a negative with something positive, to find positive activities that have the same intensity level as hazing, to emphasize primary group loyalty.

Any ideas folks?

My sorority requires a candidate (new members) class project that "betters" the sisterhood. The sisters challenge themselves to define a project, plan and execute it. With some guidance, they are in complete control over the project. The project inspires loyalty because the candidates can take ownership of it, they can take pride in it, and they are given an opperunity to be part of a chapters history or in some cases national history.

But I think the biggest way to create loyalty comes from the simple fact of respect and example. If sisters and brothers feel that a cause is worth, and lead by example, then those that are willing will follow. But the examples have to be positive ones. You treat members with respect, and you will gain their favor and their trust.

To quote one of my much loved broadway musicals:

"Careful the things you say,
Children will listen.
Careful the things you do,
Children will see.
And learn.

Children may not obey,
But children will listen.
Children will look to you
For which way to turn,
To learn what to be.

Careful before you say,
"Listen to me"
Children will listen."

~ The Witch
~ Finale: Children will listen
~ Into the Woods
~ Stephen Sondheim

While our new members are far from children, the words still apply.

[justamom]

I have a son who will most likely attend LSU. He and some friends have recently mentioned they want to join a fraternity.
I know for a fact that if any one laid a hand on ANY of these guys, they would walk. When my husband pledged, the hazing was entirely mental combined with some "sleep depravation". Nothing was physical. I'd prefer he knew what it's REALLY like prior to joining. None of the guys ahead of him pledged. This may be the first year in a long time where the guys are even considering it, so there isn't anyone to guide them. BTW-We are talking high GPA's, honors/clubs sports and real cuties!(inside and out)

I edited my question since after thinking about it I felt it was inappropriate. I would ask that we start with the premis that in some isolated cases, individual members within an organization may not follow policy set down by their HQ's. Here is the new version.
How does a young man find out if a fraternity he is interested in, sees that actives adhere to the "No Hazing" policy? Must he depend on "word of mouth"?

[shadokat]

justamom--

I can't say what it's like with groups at other schools, but at my school, all of the women preached that they didn't haze. My group was the only one that didn't. We were made fun of by other greeks as "the cake walk" pledge program, but we just didn't see the point. So, relying on word of mouth is ok, but I wouldn't take everything they tell you going through rush as fact.

Just a thought from someone who watched women go through rush thinking they were going to be treated in one way, and really got screwed and ended up depledging.

[D.0.7]

yeah it was time when hazing was a thing to do, but now we have to think more wiser about what we are doing to guys, and girls when they put there hearts into a fraternity, or soror that they want to become apart of. There are a lot of frat and soror's out there who spend more money on law suits than they do on scholarships for there society. If you look at it it's not making your frat look good to haze it's breaking it. So i always tell me self and the guys and girls that are pledeging whom ever it may be "your putting your life into someone elses hands for X amout of weeks, but make sure it's what you want to do". Don't get me wrong anything could be consider hazing but where does the line stop... So greeks we need to think about making it right for the next group and not to go get back at what Big Brother or Big sister did to you when you were online. If not your frat or soror would not be around to see the next class enter. From a brother of a new frat on this planet Mu Omega Pi were taking it to a higher level.. GOD Bless.

[N2]

justamom,

You are not going to like what I am going to tell you, so sit down.

A little background first. I am now an Alumni rep. for my Fraternity Chapter. My Chapter hazes. It has alcohol present at most functions, except where hazing takes place. It is incredibly strict and just as selective. It includes the parents of our pledges, mostly the fathers, to some degree. It is no secret on campus that our pledge program is the hardest, and we do nothing to refute it. We usually only accept 40-50% of those requesting a bid to pledge.

"BTW-We are talking high GPA's, honors/clubs sports and real cuties!(inside and out)"

That is all we accept (not sure about the 'cuties' part, but you get the drift).

My point here is that the Fraternity that they pledge may or probably will not be the 'candy stripers' that you think that they will seek out. You also may be surprised at who comes home for Christmas. We have many letters of accolade from parents that are stunned by the demeanor, confidence, attitude, respect, pride and honor that their son has when he returns home, a Brother. I believe that our program is rare, but not so rare that it does not exist at many campuses around the country.

So, my point is two fold. First, don't steer him to hard into the "WE DO NOT HAZE" Fraternity that he does not fit into and feel comfortable with. My experience has been that the ones that preach the loudest about "NO HAZING" are usually the worst physical violators. Second, don't discount the best run Chapters on campus because their reputation is one of a difficult or very selective pledge period or simply because they have a reputation of hazing. As I said before, this is how my Chapter is run. I do suggest that they seek out the Chapters with Alumni involvement. The pledge period is similar to a Marine boot camp. There is NEVER any physical danger. There is never alcohol present during hazing. The mind games are intense and include every uncomfortable situation that you could imagine, and probaly more. The physical activity is high, mostly consisting of sports.

When they reach the end and become Brothers they will feel as though they have climbed Everest, swam the oceans, and soared with the eagles. No challenge will be too great.

[justamom]

N2 I appreciate your candor. Please keep in mind my son will attend LSU, where death and permanent scarring has occurred.
I agree that for many, pledgeship can turn young boys into men of character. Good suggestion on seeking out strong alum involvement.

To be honest, I do not have a problem with situations that can be considered character building, but what one person deems character building, another may term brutality.

I couldn't steer him anywhere, he's as bullheaded as I am and will make his own choice. I would just hate to see him choose a fraternity whose policies might cause him to depledge and have a negative attitude toward Greek life.

I am mainly refering to paddling or something barbaric like that.
As I said, when my husband pledged, they did a lot of running and mental conditioning, but NO BEATING. This was in the '70's, when hazing was a given. Simply put, these young men have too much self esteem to allow themselves to be punching bags for anyone. Up to now, they haven't been exposed to the positive aspects of "fraternity" so there isn't a deep desire to belong-just a budding interest. I really hope he does go Greek. That is why I posed the original question. I guess he will have to get what info he can from his sister.

[James]

Justamom,

Hazing may not work quite the way you think. Generally its an incremental thing. Kind of like seduction, not many men good at it just jump to pawing you, they build up to it with fun activities built in.

So there may be very little even mental hazing in the first couple weeks. There won't be any physical hazing until the pledges have iinvested some time and the mental hazing has created a good group identity. Further, even people with "strong self-esteem" can be hazed because their sense of self can as easily be applied to not quitting. Especiall when a person has invested considerable time.

Very few boyfriends become abusive early in a relationship,they do it after the other person has committed significant time and doesn't want to consider the time wasted by abandoning the relationship. Throwing good money after bad.

The same thing applies to hazing, after a lot of time committment, also a lot of fun, as well as the image of the prize (especially in strong Greek systems where Greek life is strong). It becomes important to the person to finish the program to JUSTIFY the abuse. OTherwise it was wasted . . .

Plus, a lot of forms of even physical hazing are considered a normal part of our culture.

[justamom]

James, once again you answer beyond the obvious. I really appreciate it. What you said (as ALWAYS) makes perfect sense.

[DeltAlum]

Mom,

James is correct, I think, in his analogy above. And, I will say for the first time here that I think some of the things that are considered hazing are silly. In some cases I believe he is correct that hazing "works." But not for everyone.

Having pledged in the 60's, been through military training and played some sports, the contention that physical and mental hazing create stronger brotherhood, or a better person for that matter, simply are not true in most cases. Notice that I say "most."

I suspect there are some personality types that thrive on (perhaps even need) hazing type of activities. It doesn't sound like your son is one of those.

And, (broken record) hazing is illegal. It is likely (well, let's say possible instead) that a chapter that hazes will someday be caught and suspended or expelled by its National or university. Then what does that brotherhood have left to offer?

At that point, what good has that committment brought? What happened to that prize for which he has worked?

I hope you son (and his friends) take a very long and hard look at any group before they pledge.

There are chapters out there that don't haze. And they can be just as strong as any. I have them in my Division. And they can have outstanding brotherhood. They will be popular on campus and win Homecoming and Greek Cups and have high GPA's and all of the other things great chapters strive for. And they will foster exceptionally fine and successful alumni.

The argument that "lots of chapters still haze," does not make it right. It's begging the question. It doesn't mean anything. Lots of people still drive drunk also. And people still get killed. That happens in hazing, too.

I wish your young men the best of luck.

[justamom]

Thank you DeltAlum, and all for your thoughtful responses. When it boils down to it, I must trust him to make a good decision. I hope his friends do as well. They are still operating with "pack mentality". It's so darn hard to let your "babies" go and face the world on their own. I'm working on it...

YOU GUYS ARE WONDERFUL!!!