government mandated slavery

[StargazerLily]

Disclaimer: I cant take credit for writing this - one of my friends on myspace wrote it. I had heard about the 401K thing - Hubby said something to me yesterday about how he needed to find somewhere to hide his 401K money because we were going to be forced to "spread the wealth" but I hadnt heard about the community service thing.

Change we can believe in. YEEEHAAAA *rolls eyes*


Obama's newly selected chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, wants "compulsory service" for everyone from age 18 to 25. What is compulsory service? Basic training (the kind enlisted soldiers go through), civil defense preparation, and community service.

Obama wants all middle school and high school students to serve 50 hours of community service per school year, and 100 hours for college students per year. This makes me wonder what the penalty will be for people that refuse. Oh, but it doesn't end there. Another congressman, Charlie Rangle, plans to dust off a bill after Obama is sworn in, which would call for a UNIVERSAL DRAFT, requiring two years of service for everyone aged 18 to 42, if signed into law.

Obama wants to rewrite the American dream and tell people how they can live their lives. If you voted for "change," I hope you're [BLEEEEEP] happy with your decision when and if these changes do go into effect. This is only the beginning. The land of the free is dead.

Oh, and if you have a 401k (I do), the government is talking about seizing your money. Wealth distribution ringing any bells? Hello?

References:
http://change.gov/americaserves/
http://www.carolinajournal.com/articles/display_story.html?id=5081
http://www.infowars.com/?p=5818
http://www.infowars.com/?p=5828

I know, I know. Flame the "bitter republican." I can see that mandatory community service going over REAL well :rolleyes:

[UofISigKap]

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free." - from http://change.gov/americaserves/

Maybe it's my interpretation of this, but it sounds as if its more of a reward system than a MUST DO kind of thing. I'm still looking through the rest of the info.

[Senusret I]

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free." - from http://change.gov/americaserves/

Maybe it's my interpretation of this, but it sounds as if its more of a reward system than a MUST DO kind of thing. I'm still looking through the rest of the info.

That's what it sounds like to me, too.

[kddani]

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free." - from http://change.gov/americaserves/

Maybe it's my interpretation of this, but it sounds as if its more of a reward system than a MUST DO kind of thing. I'm still looking through the rest of the info.

$4,000 for 100 hours of community service? $40/hour for a college kid is a hell of a lot better than working at the book center or waiting tables.

[DrPhil]

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free." - from http://change.gov/americaserves/

Maybe it's my interpretation of this, but it sounds as if its more of a reward system than a MUST DO kind of thing. I'm still looking through the rest of the info.

Darn, glad I read ahead.

To the OP, I don't think you're a bitter Repub. I think you saw something on your friend's Myspace page that you could relate to. Did you read up on this yourself or take your friend's interpretation for the accurate one?

[nittanyalum]

References:
http://change.gov/americaserves/ (http://change.gov/americaserves/)
http://www.carolinajournal.com/artic...y.html?id=5081 (http://www.carolinajournal.com/articles/display_story.html?id=5081)
http://www.infowars.com/?p=5818 (http://www.infowars.com/?p=5818)
http://www.infowars.com/?p=5828 (http://www.infowars.com/?p=5828)


Links to the John Locke Foundation and that whack-job Alex Jones. Centers of rational, broad-minded thought. Seriously, the levels of hysteria in some quadrants is mind-boggling.

[kddani]

I know, I know. Flame the "bitter republican."

Nah, you'll just get flamed for cutting and pasting from myspace, posting stuff from nut-job extremists and not even attempting to find a credible source to educate yourself with. Repubs and Dems alike get flamed for that sort of thing.

Before you post something so inflammatory, at least make some sort of effort to actually educate yourself on the subject.

[KSigkid]

The Universal Draft will never pass. Hasn't Rangel tried to pass it through a few times before?

[AKA_Monet]

I am really trying hard to understand how come any kind of community service for young people is not a good idea.

I imagine how non-profits suffer due to poor numbers of volunteers on their projects.

[StargazerLily]

To the OP, I don't think you're a bitter Repub. I think you saw something on your friend's Myspace page that you could relate to. Did you read up on this yourself or take your friend's interpretation for the accurate one?

I'm looking at the middle/high school kids. What do they get for doing their 50 hours of service? The website is vague on how the program would work. I interpreted it to mean that college students who did 100 hours would get the college money credit. Also, I'm unsure if it wants college students to do 100 per year to get the money, or if they have to graduate before they get the credit, etc etc. There's alot of questions unanswered. At a swift glance though - it sounds to me that only college students really benefit for it. I cant imagine many middle/high schoolers enjoying doing community service "just because." I had to grow up a little bit more before I truly enjoyed giving back to the community.

What about the 2 year draft? Tthere would be those who would find medical reasons on why they should be spared, and other baloney excuses to get out of serving in the military. Plus, the military already has a bunch of "voluntary" dirtbags as it is, why put the soldiers (who want to be there) lives in danger by having them HAVE to depend on some dirtbag kid who is forced to be there? I know the draft was normal way back when, but times have changed. People don't look at military service as a sense of duty and something youre "supposed" to do anymore....

I wasnt trying to start an argument or anything - just found the info to be interesting....and I seriously wonder how it's going to work and be effective. There's going to have to be an incentive for it.....

[AKA_Monet]

The Universal Draft will never pass. Hasn't Rangel tried to pass it through a few times before?

Yes, he's tried passing that legislation through several times. I guess he was attempting to "spread that wealth around"--like many other countries do already...

[StargazerLily]

I am really trying hard to understand how come any kind of community service for young people is not a good idea.

I imagine how non-profits suffer due to poor numbers of volunteers on their projects.

I'm thinking of people with bad attitudes who dont want to be there because they feel like they've got better, more important things to do. As someone who might be interested in doing the community service, I would hate to get behind in whatever it was I was doing because I was working with some slacker who was holding me back.

[nittanyalum]

The Universal Draft will never pass. Hasn't Rangel tried to pass it through a few times before?
Yes, actually, the first time Rangel proposed it, in 2003, it was a reaction to the war in Iraq. Rangel had made a statement at one point that if more lawmakers had sons or daughters in the military and thus were likely to have children called up to serve, it might have changed their view on the war. So he was trying to make a "point" as it were, with the legislation (which garnered almost no cosponsors and only received 2 votes -- again, Rangel always knew it wouldn't pass).

Then he reintroduced it in 2006, it didn't get any cosponsors and I don't even think it went to committee.

And then he reintroduced it in 2007, I think it garnered 2 whole cosponsors this time and was sent to committee, where it was sent to subcommittee, where it was never taken up, so languished and died.

[DrPhil]

I wasnt trying to start an argument or anything - just found the info to be interesting....and I seriously wonder how it's going to work and be effective. There's going to have to be an incentive for it.....

Your tone has changed and that's okay. So you really just want to discuss this versus wanting to criticize an elected-administration based on your friend's Myspace interpretation of questionable references. :)

[nittanyalum]

I wasnt trying to start an argument or anything
Yes, your very tame and non-inflammatory thread title supports this.

[DrPhil]

I'm thinking of people with bad attitudes who dont want to be there because they feel like they've got better, more important things to do. As someone who might be interested in doing the community service, I would hate to get behind in whatever it was I was doing because I was working with some slacker who was holding me back.

So, thinking more objectively, is this a substantive reason to criticize this as a policy for the elected-administration?

[kddani]

Yes, your very tame and non-inflammatory thread title supports this.

Agreed. OP, surely by this point in your academic career you have had some studies involving the history of slavery.

[AKA_Monet]

I'm looking at the middle/high school kids. What do they get for doing their 50 hours of service? The website is vague on how the program would work. I interpreted it to mean that college students who did 100 hours would get the college money credit. Also, I'm unsure if it wants college students to do 100 per year to get the money, or if they have to graduate before they get the credit, etc etc. There's alot of questions unanswered. At a swift glance though - it sounds to me that only college students really benefit for it. I cant imagine many middle/high schoolers enjoying doing community service "just because." I had to grow up a little bit more before I truly enjoyed giving back to the community.

What about the 2 year draft? Tthere would be those who would find medical reasons on why they should be spared, and other baloney excuses to get out of serving in the military. Plus, the military already has a bunch of "voluntary" dirtbags as it is, why put the soldiers (who want to be there) lives in danger by having them HAVE to depend on some dirtbag kid who is forced to be there? I know the draft was normal way back when, but times have changed. People don't look at military service as a sense of duty and something youre "supposed" to do anymore....

I wasnt trying to start an argument or anything - just found the info to be interesting....and I seriously wonder how it's going to work and be effective. There's going to have to be an incentive for it.....

Those roads you like to drive on... Need repairs... A former military, especially construction, can quickly make that happen. But like you said, folks will find a way to get out of serving others.

Theoretically, military personnel are allowed to serve in the Peace Corps. If not called up to active duty. Maybe President Obama is trying bolster President Clinton's Americorps. Who knows what they are trying to do.

As for young middle school age children, the issue is about their poor self-esteem outcome affecting their ability to be personable. That is what SEVERAL educators have told me from all over. Middle school is the age to bolters their self-esteem/confidence and civics and duties. Research has shown that if middle school age children who have positive experience with serving the community in the smallest of ways, turn out to be well-adjusted and productive as they matriculate in high school and beyond.

Aren't you sick of hearing about kids doing a Columbine style killings?

I am not saying that community service is the sole process, because some of the young people need psychiatric care more than helping other people. But, for young people who do not act all kind of crazy but need support could benefit with a well thought out community service plan.

[DrPhil]

Agreed. OP, surely by this point in your academic career you have had some studies involving the history of slavery.

I actually expected this thread to be about capitalism or about government supported sweat shop labor.

[nittanyalum]

BTW, Chaos, that little boy in your siggy link that gets all choked up, I just wanna hug him. :)

[StargazerLily]

Your tone has changed and that's okay. So you really just want to discuss this versus wanting to criticize an elected-administration based on your friend's Myspace interpretation of questionable references. :)

I roll my eyes because that's how I feel about the elected administration. The spread the wealth idea really makes my blood boil. Spreading what little bit of wealth I have to lazy turds who wont work? Psh. To be honest, I'm just going to sit back, and watch (really, what choice do I have?) and we'll see if he's REALLY for middle class america, or just certain middle class americans. Yeah. I said it.

But to answer your question - yeah, all I wanted to do was discuss, but it's apparent I've already pissed some folks off, so I dont guess good discussion is going to actually happen now. Rather than discussing or answering a question, you have people who just want to criticise. Of course, that's what GC is all about. Who can we attack on next?

Yes, your very tame and non-inflammatory thread title supports this.

I'll call it like I see it. I think the title is perfectly appropriate. the possibility (whether it passes or not) of the draft, and telling kids they "have" to do community service? Sounds like government mandated slavery to me.

Dont worry, next time I'll title it "Hide your money before Obama takes it and gives it to lazy ass turds." How's that?

[I.A.S.K.]

I'm looking at the middle/high school kids. What do they get for doing their 50 hours of service? I cant imagine many middle/high schoolers enjoying doing community service "just because." I had to grow up a little bit more before I truly enjoyed giving back to the community.

What about the 2 year draft?


Community Service builds character. Middle and High School students should have to do community service because it opens their eyes. It will help them appreciate what they do have. CS also builds a sense of community (that I feel most of our communities lack). I also wouldn't underestimate the young people of today. We're a bit more mature than people think. The problem with many people today (especially young people) is that some feel entitled to something for no reason. Why shouldn't you spend 50 hours a year (50 hours in 52 weeks? It's not much work, but it's extremely necessary. Maybe kids will put the darn remotes down and live literally instead of vicariously) helping your community? Why should you get something for doing what you should be doing already? I understand that incentives motivate people. You should have to serve 50 hours a week as a thank you to the tax payers who pay for your education and safety.

To whom much is given much is expected. <----Words every person should live by. In this case to whom much is given (not, if anything)much is expected.


As far as the 2 year service thing, I think it's good and bad. Horrible in a time of war because no person wants to be forced to serve in a war. I also wouldn't want to have to rely on these people. I do believe there is benefit to having to serve in the military. It means that all people get some form of basic training in self-defense and discipline. I think that this will also foster more loyalty to the country, and a better work force. I think the image of most Americans as spoiled consumers will hold true if nothing is done. I don't think every young person should be shipped off to the army. I think that we might all need to do 2 years in a reserve. I'm a firm believer in the idea that hard work does a person good. There a lot of issues that can be attacked by having a 2 year service minimum.

[StargazerLily]

So, thinking more objectively, is this a substantive reason to criticize this as a policy for the elected-administration?

Have you ever had to put your life in the hands of someone you didnt trust? Why dont you ask a servicemember who has, and see how they feel about it.

[Kevin]

http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tinfoil-hat.jpg

[kddani]

I roll my eyes because that's how I feel about the elected administration. The spread the wealth idea really makes my blood boil. Spreading what little bit of wealth I have to lazy turds who wont work? Psh. To be honest, I'm just going to sit back, and watch (really, what choice do I have?) and we'll see if he's REALLY for middle class america, or just certain middle class americans. Yeah. I said it.

But to answer your question - yeah, all I wanted to do was discuss, but it's apparent I've already pissed some folks off, so I dont guess good discussion is going to actually happen now. Rather than discussing or answering a question, you have people who just want to criticise. Of course, that's what GC is all about. Who can we attack on next?



I'll call it like I see it. I think the title is perfectly appropriate. the possibility (whether it passes or not) of the draft, and telling kids they "have" to do community service? Sounds like government mandated slavery to me.

Dont worry, next time I'll title it "Hide your money before Obama takes it and gives it to lazy ass turds." How's that?

Wow, did you really want to discuss anything or just post something inflammatory and show your ignorance? You haven't even made an attempt to educate yourself on the subject before spouting off all of this.

Actually, this seems like two different people posting under this username, two totally different tones. OP has about 17 posts... I diagnose a case of the "my roommate did it"

[AKA_Monet]

I roll my eyes because that's how I feel about the elected administration. The spread the wealth idea really makes my blood boil. Spreading what little bit of wealth I have to lazy turds who wont work? Psh. To be honest, I'm just going to sit back, and watch (really, what choice do I have?) and we'll see if he's REALLY for middle class america, or just certain middle class americans. Yeah. I said it.

But to answer your question - yeah, all I wanted to do was discuss, but it's apparent I've already pissed some folks off, so I dont guess good discussion is going to actually happen now. Rather than discussing or answering a question, you have people who just want to criticise. Of course, that's what GC is all about. Who can we attack on next?



I'll call it like I see it. I think the title is perfectly appropriate. the possibility (whether it passes or not) of the draft, and telling kids they "have" to do community service? Sounds like government mandated slavery to me.

Dont worry, next time I'll title it "Hide your money before Obama takes it and gives it to lazy ass turds." How's that?

Welp... Dr.Phil, I'mma make a sammich. Whaddya want? LOL...

[DrPhil]

I roll my eyes because that's how I feel about the elected administration.

You can roll your eyes. Just don't create a thread about it until you have a solid foundation for your eye rolling.

The spread the wealth idea really makes my blood boil. Spreading what little bit of wealth I have to lazy turds who wont work? Psh. To be honest, I'm just going to sit back, and watch (really, what choice do I have?) and we'll see if he's REALLY for middle class america, or just certain middle class americans. Yeah. I said it.

How old are you, seriously? And why are you a Republican?

And I don't know what you're talking about @ yeah, I said it. Was that supposed to be a "zinger?"

But to answer your question - yeah, all I wanted to do was discuss, but it's apparent I've already pissed some folks off, so I dont guess good discussion is going to actually happen now. Rather than discussing or answering a question, you have people who just want to criticise. Of course, that's what GC is all about. Who can we attack on next?

Do you understand how ironic this is? That's like cursing out a stranger and wondering why you get cursed back.

I'll call it like I see it. I think the title is perfectly appropriate. the possibility (whether it passes or not) of the draft, and telling kids they "have" to do community service? Sounds like government mandated slavery to me.

...and you don't stop.

Dont worry, next time I'll title it "Hide your money before Obama takes it and gives it to lazy ass turds." How's that?

...and you don't stop.

Maybe you just aren't intelligent enough to have a discussion. (yeah, I said it :p). I'm all for crass delivery, I do that sometimes, but you don't make sense even when you're not being crass. You might not have it in you so....

THIS THREAD = FAIL.

[I.A.S.K.]

Spreading what little bit of wealth I have to lazy turds who wont work? and we'll see if he's REALLY for middle class america, or just certain middle class americans. Yeah. I said it.


I'll call it like I see it. I think the title is perfectly appropriate. the possibility (whether it passes or not) of the draft, and telling kids they "have" to do community service? Sounds like government mandated slavery to me.

Dont worry, next time I'll title it "Hide your money before Obama takes it and gives it to lazy ass turds." How's that?


Clearly if 50 hours of community service sounds like slavery to you then there are a few problems: Slavery should be studied more in schools, hard work should be necessary, and laziness should be banned.


Also, If you only have a little bit of wealth (ie: less than 250,000 dollars of it) then your wealth is safe. It won't be spread to lazy people. Also, where are you getting this idea that wealth will be spread to lazy people? Even if wealth were to be spread it would be spread to hardworking middle class Americans not to lazy people who do nothing. A tax break doesn't help the unemployed "lazy people on welfare"(people without jobs don't pay income tax).

Why is it that some people can't say what they mean?
What you say is "Obama's gonna redistribute my wealth"
what you mean is "I'm scared that the new black president will only help black people especially because we've had white presidents who only helped white people"

Don't worry though, President Obama and the people in the United States Congress will not pass race-specific tax laws.

[DrPhil]

Welp... Dr.Phil, I'mma make a sammich. Whaddya want? LOL...

Do you know how to make a tomato and mozzarella panini? LOL.

With a "full deck" of tomato, please.

[AKA_Monet]

Do you know how to make a tomato and mozzarella panini? LOL.

With a "full deck" of tomato, please.

Yeesah, massa, commin' raaaght up... I's jus knew yous be faamiseeshed...

[nittanyalum]

http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tinfoil-hat.jpg
L.
O.
L.

[DrPhil]

Have you ever had to put your life in the hands of someone you didnt trust? Why dont you ask a servicemember who has, and see how they feel about it.

FAIL.

[I.A.S.K.]

Yeesah, massa, commin' raaaght up... I's jus knew yous be faamiseeshed...


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


LOL!

[StargazerLily]

THIS THREAD = FAIL.

Okay. You win. Have a nice night.

[kddani]

Okay. You win. Have a nice night.

Flounce number one.

What's the over-under?

[DrPhil]

Yeesah, massa, commin' raaaght up... I's jus knew yous be faamiseeshed...

Are you posing as a slave or as a high school student doing community service to receive $4000 of free tuition?

*nail biting*

[AKA_Monet]

Do you know how to make a tomato and mozzarella panini? LOL.

With a "full deck" of tomato, please.

Oh and you been dun knows I ain't operatin' with a full deck... :D

[AKA_Monet]

Are you posing as a slave or as a high school student doing community service to receive $4000 of free tuition?

*nail biting*

I's dat nu kinna slave forced into labor holdin' old folks hands as I sit with them for 20 minutes per day for 2 years or so... :rolleyes:

[nittanyalum]

Okay. You win. Have a nice night.
http://talkinblues.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/flounce.jpg

[DrPhil]

I's dat nu kinna slave forced into labor holdin' old folks hands as I sit with them for 20 minutes per day for 2 years or so... :rolleyes:

Those lucky trans-Atlantic slave trade bastards.

[DrPhil]

Oh and you been dun knows I ain't operatin' with a full deck... :D

Yes, but I think your reasoning is pretty stable compared to others.

[AKA_Monet]

Those lucky trans-Atlantic slave trade bastards.


Black Acting School!!! :D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kio6Y4wSIAU)

Cleland!!! The Promise Land!!!

[preciousjeni]

I'm looking at the middle/high school kids.

Middle and high schools in a number of states already require students to complete a certain number of community service hours in order to be allowed to graduate. Obama's suggested plan doesn't sound too far off from what's already occurring.

And I'm mad that in the little time I was trying to post, y'all blew up the thread.

[AKA_Monet]

Middle and high schools in a number of states already require students to complete a certain number of community service hours in order to be allowed to graduate. Obama's suggested plan doesn't sound too far off from what's already occurring.

My state does for high school students.

[AKA_Monet]

Yes, but I think your reasoning is pretty stable compared to others.

Thanks Dr.Phil... ;)

[Kevlar281]

I would gladly serve if called upon.

[AKA_Monet]

I would gladly serve if called upon.

No you wouldn't according to SOME people, because you have a funky attitude and you have better things to do. And you don't want to be a slave... LOL ;)



Not to mention that didn't or are you already serve/ing in our Armed Forces?

That's better than many of the folks around here... :rolleyes:

[BabyPiNK_FL]

Middle and high schools in a number of states already require students to complete a certain number of community service hours in order to be allowed to graduate. Obama's suggested plan doesn't sound too far off from what's already occurring.

And I'm mad that in the little time I was trying to post, y'all blew up the thread.

I was required to do them in the state of FL. If you did a certain amount it provided you with a special cord at graduation. You also needed a certain amount to be considered for Bright Futures Scholarship (seeing as how almost EVERY instate kid I know has this, there are a LOT who did it!)

I also had to do them in middle school as well. Was it annoying? Yes. But I'll never forget my wonderful summer before my senior year where I spent over 300 hours at a working-class area Boys and Girls Club helping children 7-10 focus on improving their reading skills. Yes, I did it because I was "forced", but there was a lot of benefit in it for both myself and those kids. Would I claim the experience to be the equivalent of slavery...um no.

And I wouldn't mind doing some sort of mandatory basic training either. It would probably get rid of these 5 extra pounds I'm carrying around and provide me with a new and enlightening experience. It's not like I (or any of my recently graduated friends) have a real job right now anyway, what with this economy the way it is.

[DGTess]

I would gladly serve if called upon.

But being "called upon" is not volunteerism, is it?

Contrast this idea the development of the Peace Corps, and the call for voluntary service.

I am really trying hard to understand how come any kind of community service for young people is not a good idea.

I imagine how non-profits suffer due to poor numbers of volunteers on their projects.

What makes this a particularly bad idea is that America is a land of liberty. That means free choice, and yes, accepting the consequences of that choice. Which means leaving open the choice NOT to participate. Most may agree that morally, serving is the "right" thing to do, but choice is fundamental part of liberty.

And accepting the consquences could be a bureaucratic nightmare in itself. You can't graduate if you don't contribute 50/100 hours? To what? You're talking about making government bigger to "enforce" volunteerism.

And I can envision the courts becoming involved over disputes between what is and what isn't community service .....

A good idea, in theory only.

[texas*princess]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but I don't think Obama is going to come after people's 401K. Where are you gonna hide it? Under a matteress? Good luck with that... lol

Way to start an inflammatory thread (with a GREAT title by the way) and not have credible sources to back it up except someone's myspace post.

[agzg]

I'm pretty sure the middle class americans that would get the tax break are those that are hardworking.

Just because you don't make over $250K a year does not mean you are not hardworking.

Either that, or I'm one lazy-assed turd.

[Nanners52674]

telling kids they "have" to do community service? Sounds like government mandated slavery to me.


My high school as well as the other two in the town had mandatory service projects that had to be completed or you would not graduate. Obama's idea is NOT a bad one, as it's done in many high schools currently. Also I think it would help a lot of kids to see a different part of society that they aren't typically exposed to.

[UGAalum94]

My high school as well as the other two in the town had mandatory service projects that had to be completed or you would not graduate. Obama's idea is NOT a bad one, as it's done in many high schools currently. Also I think it would help a lot of kids to see a different part of society that they aren't typically exposed to.

Just because an idea isn't a bad one doesn't mean it's a legitimate function of the government, especially the federal government. But the wording has already been changed to make this a goal rather than a requirement, so it's hardly forcing anyone to do anything.

ETA:Here’s a cached page with the “required” language.
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:f_Q-RMW-DJoJ:www.change.gov/americaserves/+http://change.gov/americaserves/&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Here’s the changed version with the current “set a goal” language:

http://change.gov/americaserves/
(both these were linked on Instapundit.com)

EATA: I think it's kind of interesting that the second also suggests remuneration for the work for the college kids, which didn't seem to be in the first one.

[amanda6035]

Just because an idea isn't a bad one doesn't mean it's a legitimate function of the government, especially the federal government. But the wording has already been changed to make this a goal rather than a requirement, so it's hardly forcing anyone to do anything.

ETA:Here’s a cached page with the “required” language.
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:f_Q-RMW-DJoJ:www.change.gov/americaserves/+http://change.gov/americaserves/&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Here’s the changed version with the current “set a goal” language:

http://change.gov/americaserves/
(both these were linked on Instapundit.com)

EATA: I think it's kind of interesting that the second also suggests remuneration for the work for the college kids, which didn't seem to be in the first one.

Obama's living up to change already.:p Way to go, website editors!

[OneTimeSBX]

i had mandatory community service growing up...it was called my parents! every summer my sisters and i had to volunteer and do something, instead of sit on our behinds for three months. i think it is a really good idea to do it for college tuition credit or however they want to do it...with the way things are going, a lot of these kids are going to need it for school!

[DGTess]

Obama's living up to change already.:p Way to go, website editors!

You got to this first. Thanks!

Can you spell flip-flop?

[Munchkin03]

You got to this first. Thanks!

Can you spell flip-flop?

Can you spell bitter old hag?

[amanda6035]

HAHAHAHA....

This is funny....and appropriate for this thread. LOL!!!


http://www.236.com/video/2008/get_your_war_on_new_world_orde_10121.php

[KSig RC]

I'm looking at the middle/high school kids. What do they get for doing their 50 hours of service?

Look, I'm going to ignore the rest because I'm incredibly hung over and you don't deserve the kind of irate rant that would follow, but seriously, take another second and read your note above again.

Seriously - you have a problem with COMMUNITY SERVICE? Even if compulsory, the kids get to pick what they do - so it's not like they're forced to help X, Y or Z (where X/Y/Z are communities you find distasteful), they're allowed to clean dishes at the country club if they want. This isn't a bad thing, unless you're absolutely and irrevocably irrational.

[UGAalum94]

Look, I'm going to ignore the rest because I'm incredibly hung over and you don't deserve the kind of irate rant that would follow, but seriously, take another second and read your note above again.

Seriously - you have a problem with COMMUNITY SERVICE? Even if compulsory, the kids get to pick what they do - so it's not like they're forced to help X, Y or Z (where X/Y/Z are communities you find distasteful), they're allowed to clean dishes at the country club if they want. This isn't a bad thing, unless you're absolutely and irrevocably irrational.

I think one could have a rational problem with any new federal program without a clearly defined purpose. Your point about washing dishes at the country club kind of points out how useless this could turn out to be. It might actually be destructive, displacing lower wage employees.

I don't have a problem with tying currently existing federal assistance for higher education to community service in areas of specific need. As far as middle school and high school, if a local board wanted to set it up, okay. Or if it's offered as sort of the old Presidential Physical Fitness Awards program in the area of community service, it's hard to see it doing any real harm or having any really big costs.

But it's not irrational to question exactly what and how.

[AGDee]

I've been supportive of something like this since I first learned of Israel's program. In that type of system, everybody does 2 years of something, whether military or community service. If someone is not eligible for the military due to health reasons, they can do community service. The biggest problem is funding it, as is the case with everything that sounds like a good idea. I think our society is the most selfish that it's ever been. In the words of JFK.. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Most of the schools around here require community service hours to graduate. I don't see these types of programs taking away jobs from anybody.

I am floored by the number of people who keep saying "Oh great, now my taxes are going to be raised." None of the people I've heard say that make anywhere near $250K a year. As my ex-husband was grumbling, I looked at him and said "If you're making over $250K, then you're not paying me enough child support" and he got this look on his face and said "Yeah, I guess I'll worry about when I make that much, which is never.." LOL

[Scandia]

Not all schools require community service to graduate.

Mine encouraged it to the point that the principal thought it was more important than academics- but did not require it. It was only required to belong in NHS. Everyone knew that was the real reason why I did it.

I did not read about this till today. But I am seething. Not only I do not like being told what to do- but this would be a logistical nightmare. One of the beautiful parts of volunteer work is the CHOICE to do it. Regardless of the intent behind it- which is only up to the supreme being to judge- one needs to make the decision on your own free will. Not be imposed by the government. Forced labor is ILLEGAL.

Not to mention this would be a logistical nightmare. For the schools and for the students as well. Unless it were extremely well organized with a person in charge of this at every school, it would be very difficult to do.

Obama has not even been inaugurated- and he already did something for me to dislike him.

Don't blame me, I voted for McCain!

[KSUViolet06]

The title of this thread is quite misleading.

[UGAalum94]

I've been supportive of something like this since I first learned of Israel's program. In that type of system, everybody does 2 years of something, whether military or community service. If someone is not eligible for the military due to health reasons, they can do community service. The biggest problem is funding it, as is the case with everything that sounds like a good idea. I think our society is the most selfish that it's ever been. In the words of JFK.. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Most of the schools around here require community service hours to graduate. I don't see these types of programs taking away jobs from anybody.

I am floored by the number of people who keep saying "Oh great, now my taxes are going to be raised." None of the people I've heard say that make anywhere near $250K a year. As my ex-husband was grumbling, I looked at him and said "If you're making over $250K, then you're not paying me enough child support" and he got this look on his face and said "Yeah, I guess I'll worry about when I make that much, which is never.." LOL

I'm just guessing, but I think you mean high schools requiring community service and I suspect that most of it gets done with organizations that have always done community service, like the Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, Beta Club, church groups, etc. It'd be interesting to know how many more kids do it than did before the schools required it and how well the community is served.

And I also suspect that what is currently required is a relatively small number of hours done by a relatively small numbers of schools, compared to the number of schools you would have involved if you had a universal program. It could be incredible in terms of the benefits to society or could be a huge resource suck, depending on the requirements for administration and documentation of the program.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with community service. There could in practice be a lot wrong in how this gets done. Since the language has now shifted to merely setting a goal of the relatively small number of hours for a year, I'm not thinking it's going to amount to much but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

(The job loss thing was just in response to the dish washing example. I honestly expect the increase in community service to be so small scale that it wouldn't really matter in the labor force. What I see with kids at my high school is that they do things they'd do anyway, but they just track the hours.)

I'm not sure that you can compare the Israeli program to what you could expect to see in the US, for a lot of reasons.

[fantASTic]

I think the big problem here is that we in the US have traditionally reserved community service for two reasons, these being:

1). Someone has a genuine desire to help others, or

2). Someone gets in trouble with the law and receives community service as a PUNISHMENT.

When I think of someone being mandated to do community service as a requirement of anything that is mandatory, such as high school, then it comes off as a punishment. College is different because people don't have to go to college - it is a privilege. However, since children are forced to be in high school until 16, I don't like rules and requirements that force them to do more. If it was just a goal, no big deal...but if there are punishments for not doing it, then that needs to be looked at.

A lot of people have been saying stuff like, "It's community service! That is great for the country so why shouldn't this be okay? You should want to help the community!" That sounds the same to me as saying, "Why don't you like the Patriot Act? Do you have something to hide?" It doesn't matter whether you do or don't, or whether service is beneficial or not. It comes down to personal freedoms.

I voted for Obama.

[AGDee]

For high school students, all you would really need a log sheet that they turn in to their counselor with their graduation portfolio. As they do service, they get someone to sign off. It doesn't have to be a huge deal. It could be anything from shoveling snow for an elderly neighbor, volunteering at a local pet shelter, helping at the church when it's their Christnet week, etc. And yes, my kids, through Scouts, do far more than 40 or 50 hours of service a year. I have demonstrated an importance for community service to them and they are always eager to do service. I think they get a lot of self esteem from it in addition to learning more about people less fortunate than they are. There are also community service clubs in their high school. I believe the one my daughter joined is called Interact. I was a candy striper through high school because, at the time, I thought I wanted to be a doctor and thought it would be good for med school apps. While volunteering in the PT department, I got exposed to Occupational Therapy and discovered that OT was a great combination of all the things I wanted to do at some point (teaching, medical field and psychiatry/psychology). The things one learns about themselves while helping others are invaluable.

The type of program Israel has is what I would like to see here, but as I said, the funding would be impossible. There is an Americorps (City Year Detroit) that works out of my building and I think what they do is great. They don't work for free, although the stipend they get doesn't come close to military pay either. I see a lot of college students wandering aimlessly through their first two years of college trying to figure out what to major in, etc. who end up taking 6 years to graduate because they change their major so many times. Having a couple years to do some service and find out more about who you really are and where your true interests and skills lie wouldn't be a bad thing for those kids either.

[UGAalum94]

For high school students, all you would really need a log sheet that they turn in to their counselor with their graduation portfolio. As they do service, they get someone to sign off. It doesn't have to be a huge deal. It could be anything from shoveling snow for an elderly neighbor, volunteering at a local pet shelter, helping at the church when it's their Christnet week, etc. And yes, my kids, through Scouts, do far more than 40 or 50 hours of service a year. I have demonstrated an importance for community service to them and they are always eager to do service. I think they get a lot of self esteem from it in addition to learning more about people less fortunate than they are. There are also community service clubs in their high school. I believe the one my daughter joined is called Interact. I was a candy striper through high school because, at the time, I thought I wanted to be a doctor and thought it would be good for med school apps. While volunteering in the PT department, I got exposed to Occupational Therapy and discovered that OT was a great combination of all the things I wanted to do at some point (teaching, medical field and psychiatry/psychology). The things one learns about themselves while helping others are invaluable.

The type of program Israel has is what I would like to see here, but as I said, the funding would be impossible. There is an Americorps (City Year Detroit) that works out of my building and I think what they do is great. They don't work for free, although the stipend they get doesn't come close to military pay either. I see a lot of college students wandering aimlessly through their first two years of college trying to figure out what to major in, etc. who end up taking 6 years to graduate because they change their major so many times. Having a couple years to do some service and find out more about who you really are and where your true interests and skills lie wouldn't be a bad thing for those kids either.

If all the high school kids need is to turn in a log sheet, I don't think you will see any appreciable benefit to the community. The kids will track more hours, but I don't hold out much hope that they will actually do more hours.

Sure, I think every high school kid could probably find ways to do 50 authentic hours of service a year. A big group though won't even attempt it, if it isn't mandatory. And another appreciable group will just do a better job tracking every thing they could possible "count," without actually making much of sincere effort to serve. So you're left with the kids who have already been doing service in their families, Scouts, clubs, etc.

A big optional public service initiative probably not going to hurt anything. And it might actually make kids more aware of opportunities that they do have, but I think it can either be a "goal" with little reward or consequence to the kid or to society or it can be a large scale program that's either required or rewarded in a way that makes it more likely that people will participate but will also drive up the cost of the program. Neither one is something I feel like we need federal intervention to do.

As you noted, we've got programs right now that would meet some of the needs and benefits if kids would elect to participate.

[AKA_Monet]

What makes this a particularly bad idea is that America is a land of liberty. That means free choice, and yes, accepting the consequences of that choice. Which means leaving open the choice NOT to participate. Most may agree that morally, serving is the "right" thing to do, but choice is fundamental part of liberty.

And accepting the consquences could be a bureaucratic nightmare in itself. You can't graduate if you don't contribute 50/100 hours? To what? You're talking about making government bigger to "enforce" volunteerism.

And I can envision the courts becoming involved over disputes between what is and what isn't community service .....

A good idea, in theory only.

Look, I think President Obama's plan is probably to shore up Americorps and/or CityYear programs for middle/high schools students. If kids want $4000 to go toward a collegiate education, they can do some odd hours of community service. If that means wearing orange vests and picking up trash at the park/street, then, that's what it means.

If that means, "candy striping"/Habitat for Humanity/clerical filing work, etc. young people really need "directions" of that of stewardship and service...

If they don't want the money or reduction in student loan debt, they don't have to give of their time during college. The Feds currently do this for other programs. If you take the money, you must do the duty. That's the incentive. The government cannot have an unengaged collecting resources citizenry. It's unfair to those citizens who are engaged in some form.

For:

“I would define liberty to be a power to do as we would be done by. The definition of liberty to be the power of doing whatever the law permits, meaning the civil laws, does not seem satisfactory.”

"If we do not lay out ourselves in the service of mankind whom should we serve?"

~President John Adams, 2nd President of the US.

[epchick]

If all the high school kids need is to turn in a log sheet, I don't think you will see any appreciable benefit to the community. The kids will track more hours, but I don't hold out much hope that they will actually do more hours.


How do you figure that? When I was in high school, the only groups that did community service were the National Honor Societies (NHS, Spanish NHS, French NHS, etc). In all those groups we had log sheets, where you wrote down what you did, the hours you were there, and then you got the person in charge of the community service to sign off (plus their telephone number to be reached at).

I remember thinking that 50-100 hours of community service was a lot for a whole year until I realized what was considered "community service." I was in a dance group at the time (ballet folklorico) and any performance we had counted as community service. We used to have at least 3-5 performances a month. So in the 9 month span, I racked up anywhere between 20 to 50 hours just in dancing. Not to mention we got hours for making holiday/birthday baskets for custodians, or volunteering as candy strippers.

I remember I always had fun volunteering at an elementary school's Halloween carnival. Shoot playing games w/ kids, eating candy, dressing up, scaring kids, etc was the best way to spend 5 hours.

I do think that it will be hard to get people to do the community service, especially in areas (like mine) where none are required. But to say that it's "forced labor" or whatever is a little far fetched.

ETA: i think that there are many good things in mandating community service, but at the same time I think people will lose the "thrill" of voluntarily volunteering. People will see community service as just something they HAVE to do instead of something they WANT to do. I've always found it impressive when someone in MS/HS says they volunteer at so-and-so, I wouldn't feel the same way if it was mandated.

[Nanners52674]

When I think of someone being mandated to do community service as a requirement of anything that is mandatory, such as high school, then it comes off as a punishment. College is different because people don't have to go to college - it is a privilege. However, since children are forced to be in high school until 16, I don't like rules and requirements that force them to do more. If it was just a goal, no big deal...but if there are punishments for not doing it, then that needs to be looked at.



Um high school is all about requirements you need certain grades to pass a class and move up and graduate, its not forced you can choose not to go to class or do your homework or take the tests and as a result not graduate. You would also have that option with community service. I can't understand why the idea of having young adults do community service is a bad thing???

[UGAalum94]

How do you figure that? When I was in high school, the only groups that did community service were the National Honor Societies (NHS, Spanish NHS, French NHS, etc). In all those groups we had log sheets, where you wrote down what you did, the hours you were there, and then you got the person in charge of the community service to sign off (plus their telephone number to be reached at).

I remember thinking that 50-100 hours of community service was a lot for a whole year until I realized what was considered "community service." I was in a dance group at the time (ballet folklorico) and any performance we had counted as community service. We used to have at least 3-5 performances a month. So in the 9 month span, I racked up anywhere between 20 to 50 hours just in dancing. Not to mention we got hours for making holiday/birthday baskets for custodians, or volunteering as candy strippers.

I remember I always had fun volunteering at an elementary school's Halloween carnival. Shoot playing games w/ kids, eating candy, dressing up, scaring kids, etc was the best way to spend 5 hours.

I do think that it will be hard to get people to do the community service, especially in areas (like mine) where none are required. But to say that it's "forced labor" or whatever is a little far fetched.

ETA: i think that there are many good things in mandating community service, but at the same time I think people will lose the "thrill" of voluntarily volunteering. People will see community service as just something they HAVE to do instead of something they WANT to do. I've always found it impressive when someone in MS/HS says they volunteer at so-and-so, I wouldn't feel the same way if it was mandated.

I'm not worried about the forced labor aspect particularly. I think it would nearly impossible to go that route. But as long as we were sure there was a compelling reason for the federal government to do it and could figure out a way to accomplish it, I don't know that it would be terrible. I've got little problem with the idea of a wartime draft. If there were a comparable need domestically, I guess compelling service is as valid. But I don't think there current is a comparable domestic need and I don't see a compelling reason to try to implement a big federal community service program. And fortunately, it doesn't look like Obama does either.

My thinking about the log sheets is tied into what you said about how much stuff counted. Too many things that kids already do, IMO, which may or may not really serve anyone but their immediate circle, "count" even though the benefit to the community is relatively slight.

And this may also shock those among us who are trusting, but some kids make stuff up. If all you have to do is turn in the log, I think some kids are going to embellish or exaggerate what they've really done. You were required to turn in phone numbers, but unless someone actually take the time to verify, what does it really matter?

I know kids in my community who count a one day service project as their church confirmation project, their Beta Club hours, and document it apply to NHS, so I'm a little unimpressed with logging hours for Obama too.

[fantASTic]

Um high school is all about requirements you need certain grades to pass a class and move up and graduate, its not forced you can choose not to go to class or do your homework or take the tests and as a result not graduate. You would also have that option with community service. I can't understand why the idea of having young adults do community service is a bad thing???

Again, comparison with the Patriot Act: You have the option to not do bad things, so why would you possibly be upset that someone is spying on your telephone conversations and seeing what you check out at the library? That can't possibly be a bad thing if you are doing the right things!

The point here is that there is a difference between getting a diploma which states that you have a certain level of knowledge and being forced to do community service. That has nothing to do with book learning, which is what school is for. Also, I agree with people who say that it takes away from the POINT of VOLUNteering. As in, voluntary.

Haha...we should rename it compulsateering!

[KSig RC]

I think one could have a rational problem with any new federal program without a clearly defined purpose. Your point about washing dishes at the country club kind of points out how useless this could turn out to be. It might actually be destructive, displacing lower wage employees.

I don't have a problem with tying currently existing federal assistance for higher education to community service in areas of specific need. As far as middle school and high school, if a local board wanted to set it up, okay. Or if it's offered as sort of the old Presidential Physical Fitness Awards program in the area of community service, it's hard to see it doing any real harm or having any really big costs.

But it's not irrational to question exactly what and how.

If this is what were happening, I wouldn't have posted.

Instead, the OP comparing this to "slavery" (in any form) shows an irrational belief in what is really being proposed - even connecting this to the draft is laughable. You really think the Democrats are the ones looking to institute a draft? Come on. It's fear-mongering and, to a certain extent, race-baiting.

I'm as skeptical as any, in the traditional mold of the Skeptics - questioning is fine, this is not. To put it another way, I'm not enslaved by the "limited" selection at a grocery store if I'm hungry, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous at best.

[DGTess]

Look, I think President Obama's plan is probably to shore up Americorps and/or CityYear programs for middle/high schools students. If kids want $4000 to go toward a collegiate education, they can do some odd hours of community service. If that means wearing orange vests and picking up trash at the park/street, then, that's what it means.

If that means, "candy striping"/Habitat for Humanity/clerical filing work, etc. young people really need "directions" of that of stewardship and service...

If they don't want the money or reduction in student loan debt, they don't have to give of their time during college. The Feds currently do this for other programs. If you take the money, you must do the duty. That's the incentive. The government cannot have an unengaged collecting resources citizenry. It's unfair to those citizens who are engaged in some form.

For:

“I would define liberty to be a power to do as we would be done by. The definition of liberty to be the power of doing whatever the law permits, meaning the civil laws, does not seem satisfactory.”

"If we do not lay out ourselves in the service of mankind whom should we serve?"

~President John Adams, 2nd President of the US.

It's President-Elect.

I can't wait until someone's community service involves faith-based anti-choice counseling. Or Eddie Eagle classes. Or community organizing for a cause against one of his causes.

Just sayin'

[epchick]

And this may also shock those among us who are trusting, but some kids make stuff up. If all you have to do is turn in the log, I think some kids are going to embellish or exaggerate what they've really done. You were required to turn in phone numbers, but unless someone actually take the time to verify, what does it really matter?

I know kids in my community who count a one day service project as their church confirmation project, their Beta Club hours, and document it apply to NHS, so I'm a little unimpressed with logging hours for Obama too.

Ahaha soo true! some of my friends would do that. They'd go do community service for an hour or two, have the person sign the log sheet, and then later go back and change the hours from "one" to "seven" or something like that.

[DaemonSeid]

It's President-Elect.

I can't wait until someone's community service involves faith-based anti-choice counseling. Or Eddie Eagle classes. Or community organizing for a cause against one of his causes.

Just sayin'

Lightning bolt missed, eh?

[ASTalumna06]

I can't see community service as a mandatory requirement for graduation at high schools across the country being a good idea... at least not right now.

I went to a public high school. At the time, it was the only one in a city of close to 100,000 people. We were hovering at around 3,500 students, and that didn't even include the 9th grade (as there was no room for more students in the building).

I started my freshmen year (still in the junior high, but considered my first year of high school) with a class of approximately 1200 students. By the time I was nearing the end of my senior year, we had just under 900 students. On graduation day, there were about 600 students present.

There is already a ridiculously high number of students in this country that don't graduate. Why not focus on encouraging them to do better in school, instead of making it mandatory that everyone do extra work on top of classes and homework?

Personally, I would much rather have my taxes go toward things like new books, more counselors, and programs to assist those who need help in raising their grades.

To start, I think that community service should simply be MENTIONED to middle school and high school students. I know that I never volunteered until one of my teachers in high school talked about a program called Penny Pickers, a locally run community service project. Three of my friends and I signed up and participated. But I probably never would have done it otherwise.

The point is, to make this mandatory when the majority of the schools in this country don't even make it a point to offer any community service ideas or opportunities to students, seems like a pretty big jump.

[DaemonSeid]

I can't see community service as a mandatory requirement for graduation at high schools across the country being a good idea... at least not right now.

I went to a public high school. At the time, it was the only one in a city of close to 100,000 people. We were hovering at around 3,500 students, and that didn't even include the 9th grade (as there was no room for more students in the building).

I started my freshmen year (still in the junior high, but considered my first year of high school) with a class of approximately 1200 students. By the time I was nearing the end of my senior year, we had just under 900 students. On graduation day, there were about 600 students present.

There is already a ridiculously high number of students in this country that don't graduate. Why not focus on encouraging them to do better in school, instead of making it mandatory that everyone do extra work on top of classes and homework?

Personally, I would much rather have my taxes go toward things like new books, more counselors, and programs to assist those who need help in raising their grades.

To start, I think that community service should simply be MENTIONED to middle school and high school students. I know that I never volunteered until one of my teachers in high school talked about a program called Penny Pickers, a locally run community service project. Three of my friends and I signed up and participated. But I probably never would have done it otherwise.

The point is, to make this mandatory when the majority of the schools in this country don't even make it a point to offer any community service ideas or opportunities to students, seems like a pretty big jump.

Did you hear about programs that are paying students to get better grades....?

www.cbs46.com/news/15116950/detail.html?rss=lnta&psp=news

[ASTalumna06]

Did you hear about programs that are paying students to get better grades....?

www.cbs46.com/news/15116950/detail.html?rss=lnta&psp=news (http://www.cbs46.com/news/15116950/detail.html?rss=lnta&psp=news)

Um.. yea.. I don't know about all that.

But take my brother, for instance. Growing up, he hated school. HATED it. He would lie any which way he could so that he wouldn't have to go. When he was there, he wouldn't pay attention. Homework was rarely done, and to see him study would be a very rare occurrence (if it happened at all).

But he's not a dumb kid by any means.

In his junior year of high school, he looked into joining the military. He requested information and took the basic entrance exam. He told my parents that's what he wanted to do, and he dropped out of school. He also never joined the military. He worked as a front-end manager at a grocery store, and then he worked at Wendy's. After two years, he kind of realized that there wasn't much else he could do beyond that with the limited education that he had. Basically, it was a huge wake up call for him.

He eventually got his GED, and he enrolled in community college. He's been there for two years now, and he's been on the Dean's List every semester. He studies all the time, and asks his girlfriend for help when he needs it. This January, he's starting at UMass.

There are a ridiculous amount of students that fall through the cracks because nobody takes the time to talk with them and make them realize how important school truly is. Paying them doesn't help the cause, but making them understand their potential does. Also, with the way some schools in this country are falling apart, I'd rather put money into those communities so that the basic education that is happening everywhere else, can be provided to everyone.

[preciousjeni]

It's President-Elect.

I can't wait until someone's community service involves faith-based anti-choice counseling. Or Eddie Eagle classes. Or community organizing for a cause against one of his causes.

Just sayin'

Not sure what anti-choice counseling is. But, volunteering with pro-adoption pre-natal care organizations would probably be acceptable. Obama isn't pro-abortion, he's pro-choice.

[darling1]

i agree with your comments! i do not see a problem with this. in maryland/dc/va it is a requirement of highschool students.

i don't see why anyone would have a problem with paying it forward and giving back to people that are in need. serving in the military is not the only way you can demonstrate patriotism.


I am really trying hard to understand how come any kind of community service for young people is not a good idea.

I imagine how non-profits suffer due to poor numbers of volunteers on their projects.

[darling1]

middle/high school get the benefit of helping someone. the get the benefit of doing something that will positively impact their lives. they will get the benefit of looking outside of their situation to have a more open position on life. they also have the benefit of putting this service on their resumes, applications for colleges and share their experiences with kids behind them.

if young people can sit on the phone, focus on trivial things then they can serve.

college student will probably receive some financial benefit from serving. whether its a stipend or a discount on tuition. i would think that existing programs like americorps may receive additional funding to help as many people as possible.

i think your questions are legitimate. but my position is that you have the right to exert your viewpoint on these issues and you can wait and see what the obama administration has to offer. whether you agree with him or not, the one thing that can't be disputed is that he is intelligent and has a strong command of the issues like this one. also, as much as it was laughed at, he was a community organizer and comes with a specific knowledge about how to effectively operate programs that seek to serve the community.


I'm looking at the middle/high school kids. What do they get for doing their 50 hours of service? The website is vague on how the program would work. I interpreted it to mean that college students who did 100 hours would get the college money credit. Also, I'm unsure if it wants college students to do 100 per year to get the money, or if they have to graduate before they get the credit, etc etc. There's alot of questions unanswered. At a swift glance though - it sounds to me that only college students really benefit for it. I cant imagine many middle/high schoolers enjoying doing community service "just because." I had to grow up a little bit more before I truly enjoyed giving back to the community.

What about the 2 year draft? Tthere would be those who would find medical reasons on why they should be spared, and other baloney excuses to get out of serving in the military. Plus, the military already has a bunch of "voluntary" dirtbags as it is, why put the soldiers (who want to be there) lives in danger by having them HAVE to depend on some dirtbag kid who is forced to be there? I know the draft was normal way back when, but times have changed. People don't look at military service as a sense of duty and something youre "supposed" to do anymore....

I wasnt trying to start an argument or anything - just found the info to be interesting....and I seriously wonder how it's going to work and be effective. There's going to have to be an incentive for it.....

[darling1]

at some point all of us have had to put their life in the hands of someone they dont trust. what does that have to do with where we could be heading going forward?

the best you can do is to be as prepared as you can, do your part, stay aware and the rest you leave to your faith (if that is what you believe) or to chance.

Have you ever had to put your life in the hands of someone you didnt trust? Why dont you ask a servicemember who has, and see how they feel about it.

[PhiGam]

I thought that it was only $4000 for poor kids? I do well over 100 hours/year anyway, this would make me very happy.

[rho4life]

didn't y'all know, effective Jan 21, 2009, all white people will have to do 40 years of slavery. Enjoy the cotton fields.....

[UGAalum94]

I thought that it was only $4000 for poor kids? I do well over 100 hours/year anyway, this would make me very happy.

Well, who knows how it will turn out? Personally, I have a hard time imagining that what this country needs is a program to give 4,000 dollar tax credit to the parents of upper class college kids who are willing to turn in forms logging their Dance Marathon hours.

Honestly, I don't really see this going anywhere until the economy improves a lot, unless it's simply a requirement for documented community service added to existing tax credits for higher ed.

[Senusret I]

didn't y'all know, effective Jan 21, 2009, all white people will have to do 40 years of slavery. Enjoy the cotton fields.....

Will you hush!?!?!!

They haven't finalized the press release yet!

[UGAalum94]

didn't y'all know, effective Jan 21, 2009, all white people will have to do 40 years of slavery. Enjoy the cotton fields.....

Can we just have our ancestors do it?

Maybe something about potato famines or coal mines and company stores?

[AKA_Monet]

didn't y'all know, effective Jan 21, 2009, all white people will have to do 40 years of slavery. Enjoy the cotton fields.....

Enjoy those greens... LOL...

[Scandia]

I still can only think about the logistical nightmare it would be. Especially if there are few community organizations where you live and they slam the door on your face unless you have nepotism-like connections.

[AOII_LB93]

I can't see community service as a mandatory requirement for graduation at high schools across the country being a good idea... at least not right now.

I went to a public high school. At the time, it was the only one in a city of close to 100,000 people. We were hovering at around 3,500 students, and that didn't even include the 9th grade (as there was no room for more students in the building).

I started my freshmen year (still in the junior high, but considered my first year of high school) with a class of approximately 1200 students. By the time I was nearing the end of my senior year, we had just under 900 students. On graduation day, there were about 600 students present.

There is already a ridiculously high number of students in this country that don't graduate. Why not focus on encouraging them to do better in school, instead of making it mandatory that everyone do extra work on top of classes and homework?

Personally, I would much rather have my taxes go toward things like new books, more counselors, and programs to assist those who need help in raising their grades.

To start, I think that community service should simply be MENTIONED to middle school and high school students. I know that I never volunteered until one of my teachers in high school talked about a program called Penny Pickers, a locally run community service project. Three of my friends and I signed up and participated. But I probably never would have done it otherwise.

The point is, to make this mandatory when the majority of the schools in this country don't even make it a point to offer any community service ideas or opportunities to students, seems like a pretty big jump.

Thank you. Your post speaks volumes when students in this country are now less likely to graduate than their parents. Shouldn't we worry about closing the educational gaps in our system, stop promoting those who don't deserve to go to the next grade, and ensure that students actually receive a viable education so that when they graduate they can do more than work the fry machine at the local burger joint?

I really would like it if politicians would actually collaborate and listen to educators and couselors instead of making new crap up when we still haven't gotten everyone up to snuff.

[RedefinedDiva]

I also agree with Soror AKA_Monet. Some folks in here are making it seem as though community service is the worst thing in the world!

I think that community service should be mandatory and I think that there is a great need for it in almost every community. I'm not sure where most of you grew up, but I know that there is a need for a lot of help within the community where I'm from. As long as there are people in need in this country, there will always be room for volunteers. Soup kitchens, Habitat for Humanity, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, etc. They could even spend an extra hour at school twice a week and plant flowers, scrape gum off of desks, clean graffiti off lockers, and other things that can help beautify. There is ALWAYS something to be done.

Yes, teens lie, but that's why there should be (and probably will be) a system of checks and balances. It's very simple to contact the org. that the student alleges he/she spent time with and find out. Hell, I'd sign up for that job in the Obama administration! (I'm sure there was at least one person that's asking "Who's really going to do that?") I'd be a phone-calling, fact-checking chica! If our (MINE included) tax dollars are going toward funding something and it would take me volunteering my time to check up on some other folks, I'd do it.

Lastly, while I understand that someone stated more time should be dedicated to helping students improve grades (and I agree with the sentiment), I also think that community service will serve to help with the problem also. Students may have to opportunity to volunteer with people and orgs. that will help them see life from a different perspective. For me, volunteering on campaigns helped me to gain focus in pursuing a career in law and (eventually) politics. Students can volunteer at vets, reading academies, libraries, hospitals, etc. and gain more insight into what it takes to pursue their dream careers. They may be around positive role models that they might not otherwise have the opportunity to see.

[AKA_Monet]

^^^Veterans alone need help. I was told by a worker at the VA saying they are severely understaffed and other veterans from previous wars are aging and need more assistance... And let us not forget about the mental health debilitation these vets face.

Personally, if they serve this country and fight for it, they DESERVE to get all the healthcare they need!!!

[AGDee]

I just remembered another program that our schools do. The marching band students who choose to can do kindergarten mentoring. They are trained in how to handle the kids, how to read to them, how to do crafts with them, etc. and meet with their kindergarteners once a week after school to serve as their mentors. It's fun for the high school kids and fun for the 5 year olds. My daughter is doing that this year too.

[DolphinChicaDDD]

Not all schools require community service to graduate.

Mine encouraged it to the point that the principal thought it was more important than academics- but did not require it. It was only required to belong in NHS. Everyone knew that was the real reason why I did it.

I did not read about this till today. But I am seething. Not only I do not like being told what to do- but this would be a logistical nightmare. One of the beautiful parts of volunteer work is the CHOICE to do it. Regardless of the intent behind it- which is only up to the supreme being to judge- one needs to make the decision on your own free will. Not be imposed by the government. Forced labor is ILLEGAL.

Not to mention this would be a logistical nightmare. For the schools and for the students as well. Unless it were extremely well organized with a person in charge of this at every school, it would be very difficult to do.

Obama has not even been inaugurated- and he already did something for me to dislike him.

Don't blame me, I voted for McCain!

Logistical nightmare? Please. The school were I previously taught had around 3,000 kids. All managed to complete their 50 hours easily and it was far from a logistical nightmare. Heres how it went: Kids get paper. Kids have paper signed by person supervising their community service hours. Kids hand in paper to homeroom teacher. Homeroom teacher enters into a spreadsheet. Community service representative for the grade level removed the kid's name from the list when service was complete. Done.

Currently, I'm teaching in a international baccalaureate school and part of the program requires kids to do 150 hours of CAS (creativity, action, service) over two years. There are only 300 kids in the program, but the same basic method as above applies. No problems.

Community service is great for kids, particuarly those who are high risk. I can't even count the number of kids who were on their way to dropping out, joining gangs, or worse who after their required "forced labor" turned their lives around and became productive students and members of society.

[Scandia]

Encouraging people to volunteer is one thing. Requiring it is another story. Many of us (raises hand) are just not that good at locating and finding the places to volunteer at. There may be a transportation issue. Or a family issue. It is probably easier here in the USA, but in my old hometown it would have been a complete and total nightmare. I remember in my secondary school there was an excess of tutors and a dearth of pupils. I remember how tough it was at times to complete hours. I remember one time they called me wanting to get me to volunteer at the girls orphanage- I was home alone and there were no cars (nor did I have a license), yet they persisted. Another time they wanted me to cancel a dental appointment with little notice so that I could attend some service project- I said no.

This whole idea just makes me shudder. I'm pretty sure it would go smoother here where I now live given the opportunities- but back there given people's attitudes and the bureaucracy and disorganization and rampant nepotism, it would have been a complete and total catastrophe.

[ASTalumna06]

I believe the people here who are against mandatory community service don’t think it’s a bad thing (otherwise I don’t think they’d be Greek!). Personally, I don’t think that it should be MANDATORY right now when there haven’t been any mass efforts to include community service in the national educational system up to this point. And while it might be completely feasible for one community to have programs like this, for another, the schools have books that haven’t been updated since the first President Bush was in office. Why put money toward an extra program when they’re not even up-to-date with the basics?

If you want to include community service in the process of learning, why not have community service-based field trips? Food drives? Small daily contributions from students to a local charity? A “buddy system” where freshmen are paired with upperclassmen who guide them through their first year at school?

Some students have so many extra-curriculars that they already have too much going on. Some students aren’t able to venture too far from home after school because of transportation issues. Some students are already too unmotivated to do school work. There are numerous reasons why making community service mandatory on a national level might not be the best idea right now.

And if you really want to get technical, the national government can’t make programs like this mandatory. They shouldn’t have a hand in education at all, but that’s a different argument for another day.

If you want to provide the option and offer incentives, I think that sounds like a marvelous idea. With the ‘$4000/100 hours community service’ program, you could also offer this to high school students in order to help them pay for college. Or you could have a plan where 100 hours in high school will get you $3000, and an additional 50 hours in college will get you another $1000. Whatever it happens to be, it doesn’t much matter… it should be an OPTION.

Because I know that I’d probably be one of those extremely busy high school kids adding on a few extra hours for each activity I did, since I can pretty much guarantee that there wouldn’t be a whole lot of people like RedefinedDiva to check up on my progress.

[preciousjeni]

Community service is great for kids, particuarly those who are high risk. I can't even count the number of kids who were on their way to dropping out, joining gangs, or worse who after their required "forced labor" turned their lives around and became productive students and members of society.

Which is why a lot of juvenile rehabilitation/correction programs use community service in this manner. The best way to learn responsibility is to be responsible for someone else (I may have posted this before...can't remember).

[RedefinedDiva]

Many of us (raises hand) are just not that good at locating and finding the places to volunteer at.

That's where the schools come in. As I stated previously, students can dedicate hours to helping to beautify the campus. High school students can also volunteer at the primary/elementary school(s) in the area to help with reading, cleaning, after-school care, etc. Students can also help their elderly/disabled neighbors care for their lawns, fold clothes, carrying groceries, etc.

There are SEVERAL things that can be considered community service which would not require travel outside of the neighborhood or school district.

[XSK_Diamond]

I agree, and especially like what's bolded. I wish people would just stop with all the beating around the bush and say what's really on their minds. This passive aggressive crap is for the birds, especially when everybody knows what's really being said, anyway. :rolleyes:

Clearly if 50 hours of community service sounds like slavery to you then there are a few problems: Slavery should be studied more in schools, hard work should be necessary, and laziness should be banned.


Also, If you only have a little bit of wealth (ie: less than 250,000 dollars of it) then your wealth is safe. It won't be spread to lazy people. Also, where are you getting this idea that wealth will be spread to lazy people? Even if wealth were to be spread it would be spread to hardworking middle class Americans not to lazy people who do nothing. A tax break doesn't help the unemployed "lazy people on welfare"(people without jobs don't pay income tax).

Why is it that some people can't say what they mean?
What you say is "Obama's gonna redistribute my wealth"
what you mean is "I'm scared that the new black president will only help black people especially because we've had white presidents who only helped white people"

Don't worry though, President Obama and the people in the United States Congress will not pass race-specific tax laws.

[XSK_Diamond]

That doesn't mean he flip flopped. The first draft could have been put up prematurely before it was given final approval, or something. Geez, some of you act like Obama doesn't have people (who make mistakes) working for him. He's not doing all of this stuff himself. Get real. Please.

You got to this first. Thanks!

Can you spell flip-flop?

[XSK_Diamond]

That was hilarious!!

Accounts Receivable (black guy): You're gonna have to wear a dashiki now. Do you know what a dashiki is?
Accounts Payable (white guy): Some kind of weird mustache (crying)
Accounts Receivable: Yeah, whatever scares you the most.

HAHAHAHA....

This is funny....and appropriate for this thread. LOL!!!


http://www.236.com/video/2008/get_your_war_on_new_world_orde_10121.php

[XSK_Diamond]

I agree with you, but unfortunately that's not the case in practice. In order for Veterans to get health care via the VA, they have to have served for at least 24 months. I served for over a year in the military before I had to be discharged, and even though I got an Honorable Discharge and was never in trouble, because I didn't make it 24 months, I can't be seen at the VA hospitals or clinics.

Besides getting to use the GI Bill funds I'd paid into that system up until I got out (which wasn't much money), I have not received any other benefit from my military service. Not a thing because of the 24 month rule. Basically, the time I served counts for nothing and my contribution means nothing because it fell short of some arbitrary number. It's ironic that I saw this thread and am posting on Veteran's Day. :cool:


^^^Veterans alone need help. I was told by a worker at the VA saying they are severely understaffed and other veterans from previous wars are aging and need more assistance... And let us not forget about the mental health debilitation these vets face.

Personally, if they serve this country and fight for it, they DESERVE to get all the healthcare they need!!!

[Senusret I]

Pay her no attention. She's still a little upset because a house fell on her sister.


That doesn't mean he flip flopped. The first draft could have been put up prematurely before it was given final approval, or something. Geez, some of you act like Obama doesn't have people (who make mistakes) working for him. He's not doing all of this stuff himself. Get real. Please.

[XSK_Diamond]

You always have the best lines! LOL :D

Pay her no attention. She's still a little upset because a house fell on her sister.

[epchick]

I agree with you, but unfortunately that's not the case in practice. In order for Veterans to get health care via the VA, they have to have served for at least 24 months. I served for over a year in the military before I had to be discharged, and even though I got an Honorable Discharge and was never in trouble, because I didn't make it 24 months, I can't be seen at the VA hospitals or clinics.

Besides getting to use the GI Bill funds I'd paid into that system up until I got out (which wasn't much money), I have not received any other benefit from my military service. Not a thing because of the 24 month rule. Basically, the time I served counts for nothing and my contribution means nothing because it fell short of some arbitrary number. It's ironic that I saw this thread and am posting on Veteran's Day. :cool:

Wow are you serious? That sucks!! Although I will say, if my dad's experiences at VA are like other people's experiences at other VA's then having health benefits at VA isn't anything to want.

My dad was a Vietnam vet who got all his injuries from his time in the army. He still suffers from the effects of Agent Orange, and has had multiple surgeries on his back & neck from all the years he was jumping out of planes. Lately my dad has been having severe pains & losing the feeling in his extremities, but the VA doctors don't do anything. They are constantly losing his paperwork, or postponing/cancelling doctor's appts.

When he had his back & neck surgery, he was having complications and so he tried to call the doctor. But the doctor had up & left for a "vacation" in Europe. The doctor didn't come back for 3 months, yet the whole time my dad was in pain & no other VA doctor would see him.

The whole VA system needs to be reworked.

[preciousjeni]

My dad was a Vietnam vet who got all his injuries from his time in the army. He still suffers from the effects of Agent Orange, and has had multiple surgeries on his back & neck from all the years he was jumping out of planes. Lately my dad has been having severe pains & losing the feeling in his extremities, but the VA doctors don't do anything. They are constantly losing his paperwork, or postponing/cancelling doctor's appts.
I'm so sorry to hear that! :( I can imagine it's not only painful but frustrating/infuriating.

[AKA_Monet]

I agree with you, but unfortunately that's not the case in practice. In order for Veterans to get health care via the VA, they have to have served for at least 24 months. I served for over a year in the military before I had to be discharged, and even though I got an Honorable Discharge and was never in trouble, because I didn't make it 24 months, I can't be seen at the VA hospitals or clinics.

Besides getting to use the GI Bill funds I'd paid into that system up until I got out (which wasn't much money), I have not received any other benefit from my military service. Not a thing because of the 24 month rule. Basically, the time I served counts for nothing and my contribution means nothing because it fell short of some arbitrary number. It's ironic that I saw this thread and am posting on Veteran's Day. :cool:

As usual, it sounds like folks want to cut corners after you all had to deal with some stuff. Be it on the ground, air or on the ocean. No matter, if you are hurt due to your service, you need commensurate healthcare... That's my opinion.

My dad was a Vietnam vet who got all his injuries from his time in the army. He still suffers from the effects of Agent Orange, and has had multiple surgeries on his back & neck from all the years he was jumping out of planes. Lately my dad has been having severe pains & losing the feeling in his extremities, but the VA doctors don't do anything. They are constantly losing his paperwork, or postponing/cancelling doctor's appts.

The whole VA system needs to be reworked.

The VA is a hot ghetto mess... My uncle who did 2 tours in 'Nam, got Agent Oranged and now has mesothelioma... He was a bomb tech--so some of that was VX and Napalm...

Part of the problem is a lack of qualified healthcare personnel. No hospital has enough qualified personnel in the US. Not enough doctors, not enough nurses, not enough CNA's, not enough PA-C, not enough people, period...

And don't ask about mental health care. Hopefully folks don't hurt themselves or loved ones too badly...

The reason why is because of severe restrictions into who is accepted into healthcare school and costs to attend these schools. Believe me, the UW med school has asked me repeatedly to apply and I just do NOT want to do it because I just cannot be $150K+ more in debt. What for--I'm 40 years old? Why?

[honeychile]

I agree with you, but unfortunately that's not the case in practice. In order for Veterans to get health care via the VA, they have to have served for at least 24 months. I served for over a year in the military before I had to be discharged, and even though I got an Honorable Discharge and was never in trouble, because I didn't make it 24 months, I can't be seen at the VA hospitals or clinics.

Besides getting to use the GI Bill funds I'd paid into that system up until I got out (which wasn't much money), I have not received any other benefit from my military service. Not a thing because of the 24 month rule. Basically, the time I served counts for nothing and my contribution means nothing because it fell short of some arbitrary number. It's ironic that I saw this thread and am posting on Veteran's Day. :cool:
Have you questioned this? If my mother remembers correctly, he served 22 months - 10 in combat - and has received care at a VA, and already has "reservations" in the local National Cemetery.

[DGTess]

It depends not only on the length of time you spend in service, but your disability rating, and your category.

After 22 military years, I am 10% "disabled" and among the lowest categories for service at VA facilities -- in essence, cannot be seen. Someone who serves less time, but is injured severely, or has a "service-connected" disability of some percentage is higher on the priority list. Except for the highest priority cases, everyone is seen on a space-available basis. The limited appointments and beds go to the highest priority.

[Munchkin03]

Have you questioned this? If my mother remembers correctly, he served 22 months - 10 in combat - and has received care at a VA, and already has "reservations" in the local National Cemetery.


For some crazy reason, I think it also depends on when they served? I don't think my father served longer than a year and a half, but he was in Southeast Asia during the late 60s. That said, he has cancer related to Agent Orange and sees a VA doctor for some things, and uses his civilian doctor for non AO-related things, as well as a second opinion. He's had a pretty good experience with our local clinic, but it's also in a major military area, so maybe that helps.

I do know that, depending on when you served, you only have to have had 90 days of active duty service to qualify for a VA loan.

[Tinia2]

That doesn't mean he flip flopped. The first draft could have been put up prematurely before it was given final approval, or something. Geez, some of you act like Obama doesn't have people (who make mistakes) working for him. He's not doing all of this stuff himself. Get real. Please.
Change You Can't Click On

After one big change, Obama makes a few smaller changes to his Web site.

Now that the election is over, it's time to break some campaign promises! Because of the Web's constant hunger for new information, President-elect Barack Obama is in a uniquely difficult spot. He's issued and revised so many white papers and policy proposals that if he so much as sneezes the wrong way, he risks reversing something published on his campaign Web site.......

http://www.slate.com/id/2204041/?from=rss

[ZTAMich]

Forget all this!

PUPPIES (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/shiba-inu-puppy-cam)

[AGDee]

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.

[Tinia2]

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.
^^^^Very well said AGDee. I agree with you.

[awkward1]

Forget all this!

PUPPIES (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/shiba-inu-puppy-cam)

Puppies make everything better!:D

[KSig RC]

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.

Yeah, this is fair and I mostly agree, but you're kind of presenting a false dilemma when you conflate "adjusting to new information" and "admitting mistakes" - in specific, there are definite and decided advantages to the President (nearly) never admitting a "mistake" in those precise terms while in office, while there are few tangible benefits to a mea culpa speech while in office.

Rigidity is the sign of a small mind, but the sign of flexibility (especially for the President) is certainly not apology. It's neither necessary nor sufficient. In that way, it's kind of a crappy standard to hold Bush to - I wouldn't expect Obama to go "whoops, some of my programs suck and/or are infeasible, time to back off those campaign promises - sorry!"

[UGAalum94]

For the last 8 years, we've had a President who never changed his mind on anything, even if new information demonstrated that he was 100% totally and completely wrong. I think it's a sign of intelligence to make a plan/goal and to alter that plan/goal as you receive new information that may pertain to it. However, the minute someone does that, or compromises so that at least part of their plan can move forward, they are called a flip-flopper. So, you can have stubborn and bull-headed in the face of facts or you can have someone who flip flops. I actually gained some respect for GW Bush this last week when I read an article where he said he regrets that Mission Accomplished speech. It's the first time I've ever seen any semblance of "I made a mistake" from him.

What new information do you think Obama has gotten that changed his mind?

I think it's hard to make the case that these changes are really based on information that he didn't know before. It just sounded better to express it one way for the campaign, but it's now unrealistic to deliver on. It happens every campaign, so I'm not trying to single Obama out. But I don't think we should praise it as a virtue in his case either.

[LightBulb]

What new information do you think Obama has gotten that changed his mind?

I think it's hard to make the case that these changes are really based on information that he didn't know before. It just sounded better to express it one way for the campaign, but it's now unrealistic to deliver on. It happens every campaign, so I'm not trying to single Obama out. But I don't think we should praise it as a virtue in his case either.I'm an Obama supporter, and I agree.

[I.A.S.K.]

What new information do you think Obama has gotten that changed his mind?

I think it's hard to make the case that these changes are really based on information that he didn't know before. It just sounded better to express it one way for the campaign, but it's now unrealistic to deliver on. It happens every campaign, so I'm not trying to single Obama out. But I don't think we should praise it as a virtue in his case either.


Economic crisis? For most of the campaign we weren't in an "economic crisis". That could drastically change any person's mind. The only way it's not a flip-flop is if there is new information. If there is no new information then its just a flip-flop, but if there is new information it is a valid adjustment/ change in position.

[AGDee]

Since the minute he was elected, Obama has been privvy to a lot more information than he had before. The transition team began working almost immediately. I'd feel quite certain that he has been given all kinds of new info at this stage of the game.

[UGAalum94]

Since the minute he was elected, Obama has been privvy to a lot more information than he had before. The transition team began working almost immediately. I'd feel quite certain that he has been given all kinds of new info at this stage of the game.
Sure, but I don't think it was new information about community service and I think if the change was simply a reaction to the economic downturn, it could have been changed before the election.

I personally wouldn't characterize this change as a flip flop because I think it makes sense to reserve that distinction for stands that actually reverse themselves. (First you say you'll use public financing, but then when you see how much money you can raise, you decide not to go with public financing = flip flop. It was a one or the other choice and you changed your position.)

Here Obama has simply modified from one form of supporting community service to another. He backed off making it a requirement while still retaining it as a goal. If he ends up vetoing community service legislation, then he's flip flopped, IMO.

[Tinia2]

Factcheck.org just sent me this note which I think partial covers some of this thread:
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/is_obama_planning_a_gestapo-like_civilian_national.html

[nittanyalum]

^^^Broun's a loon. I loved this last night: http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=210189&title=obama-and-hitler

[Fiyah98]

I am really trying hard to understand how come any kind of community service for young people is not a good idea.

I imagine how non-profits suffer due to poor numbers of volunteers on their projects.

I was thinking the same... :confused:

[33girl]

I was thinking the same... :confused:

The last thing I would want is for any of my loved ones in hospitals or nursing homes to be subjected to some kid doing "forced" community service.

[AKA_Monet]

The last thing I would want is for any of my loved ones in hospitals or nursing homes to be subjected to some kid doing "forced" community service.

Just asking, what makes you say that?

No one can be forced to do anything. If they want to get money to go to college, then have to have X amount of community service...

I'd rather these kids do community service to see what real life is like than to say what they said to my husband after they found out how long they have to go to school to become a physician--"I ain't goin' to school that long!!!"

[33girl]

Just asking, what makes you say that?

No one can be forced to do anything. If they want to get money to go to college, then have to have X amount of community service...



Then I equate it to someone who has zero interest in the military enlisting so they can get money for college. I don't approve of that program either. You should be in the military because you want to serve your country, not to get something from it and gritting your teeth the whole time. That isn't how the GI Bill was supposed to work. I say the same about community service. Do it because you truly want to, not because you're checking it off on a resume or to get $$ for college. That isn't "service" from my vantage point.

[I.A.S.K.]

Then I equate it to someone who has zero interest in the military enlisting so they can get money for college. I don't approve of that program either. You should be in the military because you want to serve your country, not to get something from it and gritting your teeth the whole time. That isn't how the GI Bill was supposed to work. I say the same about community service. Do it because you truly want to, not because you're checking it off on a resume or to get $$ for college. That isn't "service" from my vantage point.

I understand why you would want a person to want to do what they're doing, but that is not entirely realistic.

I have no problem with someone enlisting just so they can get an education. They can grit their teeth through their military service as long as they do their job well and dont cause any problems (that includes having a bad attitude).

I think that suggesting that young people should only do community service because they want to is sending the wrong message. In life we all have to do things that we don't want to. As you grow up you realize that you cannot always do what you want and get what you want in life.

That's like an employer saying that an employee should complete detailed weekly reports because they want to and not because they want to get a promotion or a check at the end of the week. Incentive motivates people. That is the whole point behind paying college students for community service. People do what is necessary as a means to an end. The goal is to get $4,000 for school and the way to get it is to serve your community. A lot of the choices young people will make in the real world will be reflective of this situation. In life young people will want things. Getting these things will be their goals. Young people need to learn that nothing will be handed to them. If you want to achieve your goals then you have to make a plan and execute that plan. Said plan will most likely include many things that the person will not want to do, but the person will have to do them as a means to achieve the goal. That is how life works.

Frankly, I think college-aged people should understand this (and use this to their advantage) and middle school and high school students should be learning this. The grade school students would come out of highschool with a healthy respect for community service and would go into college being rewarded for the service they do.

[AlphaDeltaDelta]

Then I equate it to someone who has zero interest in the military enlisting so they can get money for college. I don't approve of that program either. You should be in the military because you want to serve your country, not to get something from it and gritting your teeth the whole time. That isn't how the GI Bill was supposed to work. I say the same about community service. Do it because you truly want to, not because you're checking it off on a resume or to get $$ for college. That isn't "service" from my vantage point.

This is why we don't put you in charge of the military, since if the US was a volunteer only force without the GI bill, we wouldn't have nearly the number of soldiers required to "protect America's interests" around the world.

[33girl]

I think that suggesting that young people should only do community service because they want to is sending the wrong message. In life we all have to do things that we don't want to. As you grow up you realize that you cannot always do what you want and get what you want in life.

That's like an employer saying that an employee should complete detailed weekly reports because they want to and not because they want to get a promotion or a check at the end of the week. Incentive motivates people. That is the whole point behind paying college students for community service.

Your logic is faulty. Completing weekly reports on your job is something you have to do FOR YOUR JOB. Obviously if you don't do your job you don't get paid. If I do community service, my employer isn't going to reward me in any way - because it has NOTHING to do with my job. Why should a student studying theater have to volunteer at a nursing home? It has nothing to do with their career path.

Oh, and if you pay someone for it, IT'S NOT SERVICE.

This is why we don't put you in charge of the military, since if the US was a volunteer only force without the GI bill, we wouldn't have nearly the number of soldiers required to "protect America's interests" around the world.

If we weren't so insistent on remaining the world's policeman that wouldn't be a problem. But that is another thread.

[AGDee]

I think we're defining service differently based on 33Girl's comment that if you pay someone, it's not service.

Military service is a type of service and they are paid. The kind of program I envisioned would be like that... service to either the military or the community in a structured way, with pay (much like Israel does).

[I.A.S.K.]

Your logic is faulty. Completing weekly reports on your job is something you have to do FOR YOUR JOB. Obviously if you don't do your job you don't get paid. If I do community service, my employer isn't going to reward me in any way - because it has NOTHING to do with my job. Why should a student studying theater have to volunteer at a nursing home? It has nothing to do with their career path.

Oh, and if you pay someone for it, IT'S NOT SERVICE.

If we weren't so insistent on remaining the world's policeman that wouldn't be a problem. But that is another thread.

I don't understand what is faulty about it. The same way that completing weekly reports is something you have to do for your job completing community service hours is something you have to do to get the $4,000. Obviously, if you don't do your service you dont get the money.
There are employers that reward employees for doing community service. I never said the two things were related. I used it as an analogy not to show correlation between the two.

A student studying theater would not necessarily have to volunteer at a nursing home. They could volunteer at a theater/performing arts based after school program for youth. Or they could volunteer to put together a play for the people at a nursing home. Or they could volunteer to put on a play with an after school program for youth and have the youth do the play for the people at the nursing home. Community service always relates to a person's career.

From Dictionary.Com:
community service

noun1. a service that is performed for the benefit of the public or its institutions
community service

n.
Services volunteered by individuals or an organization to benefit a community or its institutions.It is still service even if you are paid to do it. By either definition a person who gives a service for the benefit of the community is doing community service. Even if you take the second definition which says that the person must do it voluntarily this would still be considered community service since it is not mandatory for the college students. Most community service organizations provide some type of incentive or reward for their volunteers if they can. Red Cross gives away stuff all the time. Their give aways are the same thing as this $4,000. It is a thank you for helping out.

[33girl]

A student studying theater would not necessarily have to volunteer at a nursing home. They could volunteer at a theater/performing arts based after school program for youth. Or they could volunteer to put together a play for the people at a nursing home. Or they could volunteer to put on a play with an after school program for youth and have the youth do the play for the people at the nursing home. Community service always relates to a person's career.


No, it doesn't. I was a Candy Striper in the pediatrics ward and that has NOTHING to do w/ what I'm doing now, nor did it have anything to do w/ any of my jobs ever. And I'll say the same thing about this I say about school choice - the same breadth of opportunities do not exist everywhere. The kids in the rural and poorer areas are going to have very limited options, just like with school choice.

[AKA_Monet]

33girl,

Help me understand where you are coming from, are you saying if someone is not passionate or committed to serve either in the community or military in what way ever, then they should not have to serve or be made to serve or be told to do this for any amount of money?

I am wondering, though, how else could young people consider life's options besides being out there practically nothing, expecting everything. And we are NOT talking about the kids who have legal jobs, like working in a fast food place, etc. We are talking about all those myspace/messageboard children cyberbulling an unsuspecting newbies and lying about who they really are online... We are talking about gang-bangers, car choppers, or tick-tock gun shot bang spinner wheel chair stealers... What about those kids whose only concepts about doing right by people is something like digital exams? :rolleyes: LOL... :)

[33girl]

33girl,

Help me understand where you are coming from, are you saying if someone is not passionate or committed to serve either in the community or military in what way ever, then they should not have to serve or be made to serve or be told to do this for any amount of money?


Yes.