McCain's Black Relatives

[preciousjeni]

Interesting articles:

"Two Families Named McCain: Candidate's Kin Share a History With Descendants of Slaves"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122419511761942501.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Lillie McCain is watching the presidential campaign from a singular perspective.

A 56-year-old psychology professor whose family spans five generations from the enslavement of her great-great-grandparents to her own generation's fight for civil rights, Ms. McCain appreciates the social changes that have opened the way for Sen. Barack Obama to be the first major-party black contender for the White House.

"Some of McCain's black relatives support Obama"
http://www.sfltimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2041&Itemid=42

In the rural Teoc community of Carroll County, Miss., where the ancestors of Sen. John McCain owned enslaved Africans on a plantation, black, white and mixed-race family members unite every two years for their Coming Home Reunion, on the land where the plantation operated.

Have these been posted already?

[PM_Mama00]

Seriously? Pretty sure by the time McCain could buy his own slaves, slavery was against the law. And how far down the line are these relatives?

Who cares?

[preciousjeni]

Perhaps, but he also denied his family's slave-owning past and then claimed to gloss over the section about the family slaves when he read a relative's memoir. I completely understand why he would do that...

[Phrozen1ne]

John McCain's family own slaves.....I'm shocked.:rolleyes:

[Kevin]

Well this confirms it.

This election has nothing to do with race.

Nothing to see here.

[LightBulb]

Seriously? Pretty sure by the time McCain could buy his own slaves, slavery was against the law.Are you suggesting that McCain was a child during the antebellum period? :cool:

[DaemonSeid]

John McCain's family own slaves.....I'm shocked.:rolleyes:

yeah...ditto that surprise.

[Kevin]

Has anyone checked whether or not Obama's family owned slaves?

[DaemonSeid]

Has anyone checked whether or not Obama's family owned slaves?

Better question: Does anyone care?

[CrackerBarrel]

Better question: Does anyone care?

Apparently someone cares enough about this question to act like it's a big deal (and post it), so if this is such an important issue in judging candidates maybe they should.

[PM_Mama00]

Didn't most white families who lived in America own slaves at some point?

What does someone's ancestors have to do with them now?

And if we wanna go there, let's talk about Obama's mama and how his dad was an alcoholic drunk driver. Or why DID Obama change his name from Barry to Barack if he is not Muslim or ever was....

(I'm neither an Obama nor McCain supporter)

[PM_Mama00]

Are you suggesting that McCain was a child during the antebellum period? :cool:


Yes. :p

[Kevin]

Better question: Does anyone care?

Good question.

Why does anyone care whether McCain's family had slaves prior to December 6th, 1865? The answer as to him should be the same as it is for Obama.

A more interesting question, I think, and one which might be whether Obama's Kenyan ancestors were active in the slave trade. Kenya was once a big slave exporting country.

[DaemonSeid]

Good question.

Why does anyone care whether McCain's family had slaves prior to December 6th, 1865? The answer as to him should be the same as it is for Obama.

A more interesting question, I think, and one which might be whether Obama's Kenyan ancestors were active in the slave trade. Kenya was once a big slave exporting country.

actually right about now...this whole thread is pointless.

Or why DID Obama change his name from Barry to Barack if he is not Muslim or ever was....


Same reason why James Earl Carter is Jimmy and Richard Cheyney is a Dick.

[KSigkid]

Thanks for the links the articles are pretty interesting.

As a general matter, does it matter if a candidate's ancestors owned slaves? I mean, for me, as a white male living in New England, it doesn't really matter much, but I'm not exactly qualified to speak for others.

ETA: Never mind - question withdrawn.

[DaemonSeid]

Thanks for the links the articles are pretty interesting.

As a general matter, does it matter if a candidate's ancestors owned slaves? I mean, for me, as a white male living in New England, it doesn't really matter much, but I'm not exactly qualified to speak for others.

Most whites don't like talking about slavery...because why should they be held accountable for what their ancestors did?

[MysticCat]

Didn't most white families who lived in America own slaves at some point? No. While it might be true that most white Americans today whose ancestors came here long enough ago could find at least one slave-owning ancestor in his or her family tree, most white families did not own slaves.

To give one snapshot: According to the 1860 Census, about 25% percent of families in the 15 states where slavery was legal owned slaves. (Meaning about 75% of families in those states did not own slaves.) Per that same census, this translated into about 8% of all white American families owning slaves.
Or why DID Obama change his name from Barry to Barack if he is not Muslim or ever was....He didn't change his name; his name has always been Barack, just like his father for whom he is named. Barry was a nickname -- it's no different from the kid Tommy deciding to be the adult Thomas (or Tomás).

[KSig RC]

Most whites don't like talking about slavery...because why should they be held accountable for what their ancestors did?

Well, this is actually an entirely different thread, and doesn't really address ksig's point at all (should we care of McCain's distant family owned slaves? Why or why not?) . . . Although you might have been joking, in which case, as always, I'm an idiot.

[DaemonSeid]

Well, this is actually an entirely different thread, and doesn't really address ksig's point at all (should we care of McCain's distant family owned slaves? Why or why not?) . . . Although you might have been joking, in which case, as always, I'm an idiot.

actually, I was being sarcastic...and this thread is actually a Thread to Nowhere

[KSig RC]

actually, I was being sarcastic...and this thread is actually a Thread to Nowhere

Then I'm completely on your side here, DS

[Phrozen1ne]

Has anyone checked whether or not Obama's family owned slaves?


They probably did. Sooooooooo what's your point?

[Phrozen1ne]

actually right about now...this whole thread is pointless.




Same reason why James Earl Carter is Jimmy and Richard Cheyney is a Dick.


LOL

[PM_Mama00]

No. While it might be true that most white Americans today whose ancestors came here long enough ago could find at least one slave-owning ancestor in his or her family tree, most white families did not own slaves.

To give one snapshot: According to the 1860 Census, about 25% percent of families in the 15 states where slavery was legal owned slaves. (Meaning about 75% of families in those states did not own slaves.) Per that same census, this translated into about 8% of all white American families owning slaves.
He didn't change his name; his name has always been Barack, just like his father for whom he is named. Barry was a nickname -- it's no different from the kid Tommy deciding to be the adult Thomas (or Tomás).

Thank you. I did not know that.

Most whites don't like talking about slavery...because why should they be held accountable for what their ancestors did?

Because my ancestors were poor and lived in Sicily, therefore more than likely did not own slaves. They did their own dirty work. So no, most whites shouldn't have to be held accountable for what their ancestors did, because alot of them didn't own slaves!

[Kevin]

They probably did. Sooooooooo what's your point?

That this whole line of questioning/thinking is beyond pointless.

[Phrozen1ne]

That this whole line of questioning/thinking is beyond pointless.

Then, why comment? That seems pointless too.:confused:

[Phrozen1ne]

Forget a census, that fact that any person owned slaves ,whether the owners were black or white is disgusting.

[Kevin]

Then, why comment? That seems pointless too.:confused:

I can't comment because I find the entire concept of the thread to be ridiculous?

It is just as relevant as to whether McCain's family owned slaves 150 years ago as it is whether Obama's ancestors owned slaves or participated in the slave trade.

[KSig RC]

Forget a census, that fact that any person owned slaves ,whether the owners were black or white is disgusting.

You're right.

This is still a false dilemma (in reference to this thread).

[DaemonSeid]

I can't comment because I find the entire concept of the thread to be ridiculous?

It is just as relevant as to whether McCain's family owned slaves 150 years ago as it is whether Obama's ancestors owned slaves or participated in the slave trade.

pssst.....check back at post 14....get the picture and move on.

[Phrozen1ne]

I can't comment because I find the entire concept of the thread to be ridiculous?

It is just as relevant as to whether McCain's family owned slaves 150 years ago as it is whether Obama's ancestors owned slaves or participated in the slave trade.

Your welcome to comment because this is a free country and you have rights, or so they say. If you think that this is pointless, why waste time stating such. As for the slave topic please refer to post 26, thanks.:)

[MysticCat]

Has anyone checked whether or not Obama's family owned slaves?

They probably did.Why would you assume they probably did, since most white families did not?

Slightly off topic, and maybe this has been mentioned at GC before and I missed it, but did anyone else hear that Obama is distantly related to Dick Chaney and Harry Truman (http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/familytree/545456,BSX-News-wotreej09.stng)?

[CrackerBarrel]

Why would you assume they probably did, since most white families did not?

Slightly off topic, and maybe this has been mentioned at GC before and I missed it, but did anyone else hear that Obama is distantly related to Dick Chaney and Harry Truman (http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/familytree/545456,BSX-News-wotreej09.stng)?

A quarter of white families in states allowing slavery owned at least 1 slave. That doesn't mean a whole lot though since there have been quite a few generations in between slavery and now, so your ancestors cover a lot of families back in the days of slavery.

[SWTXBelle]

A quarter of white families in states allowing slavery owned at least 1 slave. That doesn't mean a whole lot though since there have been quite a few generations in between slavery and now, so your ancestors cover a lot of families back in the days of slavery.

What's your source for information? And what time frame are you covering? What is the percentage of black/mixed race slaveholders at the time? I've seen the 25% figure banded about in research, but have had trouble sometimes pinning down the specifics of the statement. ( And 25% still means 75% of families DID NOT own even one slave.)

You can't really make a blanket statement like that and have it be accurate. As a basis of comparison, the percentage of New England slaveholders in 1760 is basically the same as southern slaveholders in 1860. If you talked about slavery in 1760 the percentages overall would differ from slavery in 1860. Heck, if you want to have fun with technicalities you could point out that 100% of all slaveholders after the Emancipation Proclamation lived in states of the Union. It's interesting that you specify your percentage as being those who owned at least 1 slave - I've seen percentages as low as 3.7 for southern slaveholders with 50 or more slaves, depending on the year.

Ultimately, getting back to the political aspect of all this, McCain could no more chose his ancestors than you or I. Whether or not his family, or Obama's, owned slaves tells us NOTHING about the candidates and their views on any racial issue of today.

[CrackerBarrel]

What's your source for information? And what time frame are you covering? What is the percentage of black/mixed race slaveholders at the time? I've seen the 25% figure banded about in research, but have had trouble sometimes pinning down the specifics of the statement. ( And 25% still means 75% of families DID NOT own even one slave.)

You can't really make a blanket statement like that and have it be accurate. As a basis of comparison, the percentage of New England slaveholders in 1760 is basically the same as southern slaveholders in 1860. If you talked about slavery in 1760 the percentages overall would differ from slavery in 1860. Heck, if you want to have fun with technicalities you could point out that 100% of all slaveholders after the Emancipation Proclamation lived in states of the Union. It's interesting that you specify your percentage as being those who owned at least 1 slave - I've seen percentages as low as 3.7 for southern slaveholders with 50 or more slaves, depending on the year.

Ultimately, getting back to the political aspect of all this, McCain could no more chose his ancestors than you or I. Whether or not his family, or Obama's, owned slaves tells us NOTHING about the candidates and their views on any racial issue of today.

I had seen that number in this thread and repeated it. I was just explaining the logic that the fact that x% of families had a slave doesn't mean that x% of people now have ancestors who had slaves.

[MysticCat]

A quarter of white families in states allowing slavery owned at least 1 slave.
What's your source for information? And what time frame are you covering? What is the percentage of black/mixed race slaveholders at the time? I've seen the 25% figure banded about in research, but have had trouble sometimes pinning down the specifics of the statement. ( And 25% still means 75% of families DID NOT own even one slave.)
I had seen that number in this thread and repeated it.It was me, here in post #16 (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showpost.php?p=1734305&postcount=17). I got the info here (http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html). I'll admit that I haven't compared this to the census records themselves, which I can only find on a county by county basis.

[Elephant Walk]

Didn't most white families who lived in America own slaves at some point?

No. Very few people owned slaves...

According to this data: http://www.civil-war.net/census.asp?census=Total

8% did.

Furthermore, what does it matter whether or not his family owned slaves? He's not his ancestors. No one is.

Edit: I know my ancestors did, the German side came over in the late 1880's and the English side were Quakers (vehemently opposed to slavery)

[DaemonSeid]

No. Very few people owned slaves...

According to this data: http://www.civil-war.net/census.asp?census=Total

8% did.

Furthermore, what does it matter whether or not his family owned slaves? He's not his ancestors. No one is.

Edit: I know my ancestors did, the German side came over in the late 1880's and the English side were Quakers (vehemently opposed to slavery)


I don't care what the percentage is...I am still stuck on the fact that millions were hauled here in the first place and God only knows how many died from those shores to these shores...this is why I even hate discussing this type of stuff because it's always someone trying to minimalize the impact that the Slave trade had...I don't care if it was 1% ...there are still issues that have gone on for 400+ years we still haven't resolved yet.

For instance....James Byrd wasn't that long ago and THIS just happened again in TEXAS

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-pariskilling,0,977683.story

Some behaviors just won't die...just people.

[KSigkid]

I don't care what the percentage is...I am still stuck on the fact that millions were hauled here in the first place and God only knows how many died from those shores to these shores...this is why I even hate discussing this type of stuff because it's always someone trying to minimalize the impact that the Slave trade had...I don't care if it was 1% ...there are still issues that have gone on for 400+ years we still haven't resolved yet.

For instance....James Byrd wasn't that long ago and THIS just happened again in TEXAS

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-pariskilling,0,977683.story

Some behaviors just won't die...just people.

I don't know that anyone here is trying to minimalize the effect of the slave trade. Even the people who say that a low percentage of whites owned slaves would admit (I would hope) that some of these whites owned large numbers of slaves. Plus, 8% is still 8% too many...

Racism is still rampant today, absolutely. When I was asking my questions, I wasn't making a judgment on the slavery, or excusing anyone's conduct, I was asking it more as a general question about whether the actions of a person's ancestors would affect the perception of that person today.

[MysticCat]

I don't care what the percentage is...I am still stuck on the fact that millions were hauled here in the first place and God only knows how many died from those shores to these shores...this is why I even hate discussing this type of stuff because it's always someone trying to minimalize the impact that the Slave trade had...I don't care if it was 1% ...there are still issues that have gone on for 400+ years we still haven't resolved yet.DS, I don't think anyone is trying to minimize it. I know I'm not and wouldn't.

Some of us have been responding to a specific question:Didn't most white families who lived in America own slaves at some point? It's not minimizing the extent of slavery to say that a specific claim is not accurate.

I agree that we haven't resolved all of these issues yet. I'd add that we won't unless we are honest about the history, which means both not minimizing and not making claims that aren't true historically.

[DaemonSeid]

DS, I don't think anyone is trying to minimize it. I know I'm not and wouldn't.

Some of us have been responding to a specific question:It's not minimizing the extent of slavery to say that a specific claim is not accurate.

I agree that we haven't resolved all of these issues yet. I'd add that we won't unless we are honest about the history, which means both not minimizing and not making claims that aren't true historically.

And that is fine too because you also have to be aware that even though 8% may have owned Africans, that a LARGE percent of the populace still regarded my ancestors less than human and treated them as such which is why I still get pissy when we talk about attitudes today....make sure you read that link I left.

[MysticCat]

And that is fine too because you also have to be aware that even though 8% may have owned Africans, that a LARGE percent of the populace still regarded my ancestors less than human and treated them as such . . . .Sure. I would certainly acknowledge that. But that's not the specific statement we were responding to. There's no need to read more into our responses than what we actually said -- that most white families did not own slaves.

[Munchkin03]

I was asking it more as a general question about whether the actions of a person's ancestors would affect the perception of that person today.

This is off-topic, but I was reading an article a few weeks ago about how the great-niece of Heimrich Himmler fell in love with an Israeli Jew who lost family in the Holocaust. She waited for almost a year to tell her BF who her family was; eventually their marriage couldn't survive the various problems something like that brings up. We're obviously a few more generations removed from slavery than the Holocaust, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.

[Phrozen1ne]

I don't care what the percentage is...I am still stuck on the fact that millions were hauled here in the first place and God only knows how many died from those shores to these shores...this is why I even hate discussing this type of stuff because it's always someone trying to minimalize the impact that the Slave trade had...I don't care if it was 1% ...there are still issues that have gone on for 400+ years we still haven't resolved yet.

For instance....James Byrd wasn't that long ago and THIS just happened again in TEXAS

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-pariskilling,0,977683.story

Some behaviors just won't die...just people.


Exactly my point DS. People.....f#$k the stats, I never stated that all whites owned slaves. To say a small percentage did is bull too. I am just not shocked if I ran into someone whose ancestors did have slaves, whether they be Black, White, American Indian, etc. I never said that made McCain or Obama a bad person. If Nat Turner was related to me, does that mean I am a bad person, no.

[PM_Mama00]

This is off-topic, but I was reading an article a few weeks ago about how the great-niece of Heimrich Himmler fell in love with an Israeli Jew who lost family in the Holocaust. She waited for almost a year to tell her BF who her family was; eventually their marriage couldn't survive the various problems something like that brings up. We're obviously a few more generations removed from slavery than the Holocaust, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.

Thank you for bringing this up. African Americans aren't the only ones in the world who have been tortured and killed, but you don't see these other races and nationalities constantly up in arms that someone somewhere owes them something.

And we should remember, many people in this country came here after in the 1900s. They didn't own slaves.

[Phrozen1ne]

Thank you for bringing this up. African Americans aren't the only ones in the world who have been tortured and killed, but you don't see these other races and nationalities constantly up in arms that someone somewhere owes them something.

And we should remember, many people in this country came here after in the 1900s. They didn't own slaves.

Whoa-
O.k. who the hell said someone owed them anything? I don't look for handouts. Since you want to take it there, how about SOME, not all in this country, like to sweep slavery under the rug like it is something that happened one day and ended the next. I would never compare the enslavement of African Americans to the Holocaust. One doesn't trump the other.

[Kevin]

I thought this thread was supposed to be over on post 14 or 26?

PM_Mama, I don't think "they" (my, that is a loaded word) said anything about being owed anything. There might be a few fringe wackos who get publicity every now and then carrying on about 'reparations,' but to say that all blacks are in favor of that, I think would be overstating things. (but who is ever opposed to free money so long as they don't have to pay?)

No, slavery wasn't really over 150 years ago... heck... my father's stepfather's uncle still had what were essentially slaves well into the 1960's, still living on the plantation, still living in the same housing their forefathers occupied prior to the Civil War, working on the farm in exchange for company script only redeemable at the company store -- only a small violation of the FLSA there. The legacy of slavery is still well alive today. I really don't think that's disputable.

[Elephant Walk]

Exactly my point DS. People.....f#$k the stats, I never stated that all whites owned slaves. To say a small percentage did is bull too. I am just not shocked if I ran into someone whose ancestors did have slaves, whether they be Black, White, American Indian, etc. I never said that made McCain or Obama a bad person. If Nat Turner was related to me, does that mean I am a bad person, no.

You do realize that your very own ancestors owned slaves, correct?

Very few of the slaves were simply caught by white folks with net or something, most were enslaved by rival tribes and then sold to the white folks.

It may be your own family.

[XSK_Diamond]

You are so wrong on so many levels for writing this... stuff.

Nobody HERE said anything about being owed anything, first of all. Secondly, just because SOME black Americans call for reparations, and other things, doesn't mean that we ALL do! We are not the doggone Borg! We do not share a collective conscious and we do not all do ANYTHING alike. :mad:

And, for the record, YES these other ethnic groups DO speak up loudly when they feel they are being disrespected. A prime example is I never see/hear/read anyone saying the same thing about the Anti-Defamation League, or other Jewish groups, when they get their britches in a knot about something.

Freudian slips really aren't slips.

Thank you for bringing this up. African Americans aren't the only ones in the world who have been tortured and killed, but you don't see these other races and nationalities constantly up in arms that someone somewhere owes them something.

And we should remember, many people in this country came here after in the 1900s. They didn't own slaves.

[XSK_Diamond]

Slavery has almost always existed. That cannot be disputed. But, to toss out that Africans owned slaves in an attempt to diminish the impact of American slavery is fallacious. West African slavery was not anything like American slavery. America took slavery, and the slave trade, to a level of barbarity that was unprecedented. You should do some research, because you're way off the mark on this.

You do realize that your very own ancestors owned slaves, correct?

Very few of the slaves were simply caught by white folks with net or something, most were enslaved by rival tribes and then sold to the white folks.

It may be your own family.

[Munchkin03]

Thank you for bringing this up. African Americans aren't the only ones in the world who have been tortured and killed, but you don't see these other races and nationalities constantly up in arms that someone somewhere owes them something.

And we should remember, many people in this country came here after in the 1900s. They didn't own slaves.

Huh? The article, that was in this month's Marie Claire, was actually about how the relationship couldn't last because of the tension.

[CrackerBarrel]

Slavery has almost always existed. That cannot be disputed. But, to toss out that Africans owned slaves in an attempt to diminish the impact of American slavery is fallacious. West African slavery was not anything like American slavery. America took slavery, and the slave trade, to a level of barbarity that was unprecedented. You should do some research, because you're way off the mark on this.

You're arguing with him about a point he isn't making. He isn't talking about African tribes owning slaves, he is saying that's how the American slaves got here. There wasn't much in the way of white slave catchers in Africa. African tribes would go to war with a neighboring tribe, and then the winner would trade the other tribe to slave-ship owners for goods.

[DaemonSeid]

You're arguing with him about a point he isn't making. He isn't talking about African tribes owning slaves, he is saying that's how the American slaves got here. There wasn't much in the way of white slave catchers in Africa. African tribes would go to war with a neighboring tribe, and then the winner would trade the other tribe to slave-ship owners for goods.

thus that is why you need to do your homework...slavery as it was known in Africa back in the olden days was nowhere near as brutal and dehumanizing as chattel slavery was in US.

In some cases, being a slave among some African tribes gave you a better lot in life than if you stayed free amongst your kinsmen.

And I state again, altho that period is over with, there is still the issue of some of the deeply seeded behavior that still exists among blacks and whites in our country.

[XSK_Diamond]

What DaemonSeed said. :)

You're arguing with him about a point he isn't making. He isn't talking about African tribes owning slaves, he is saying that's how the American slaves got here. There wasn't much in the way of white slave catchers in Africa. African tribes would go to war with a neighboring tribe, and then the winner would trade the other tribe to slave-ship owners for goods.

[XSK_Diamond]

Right on! ;)

Makes you wanna holla sometimes, doesn't it? :cool:

thus that is why you need to do your homework...slavery as it was known in Africa back in the olden days was nowhere near as brutal and dehumanizing as chattel slavery was in US.

In some cases, being a slave among some African tribes gave you a better lot in life than if you stayed free amongst your kinsmen.

And I state again, altho that period is over with, there is still the issue of some of the deeply seeded behavior that still exists among blacks and whites in our country.

[DaemonSeid]

Right on! ;)

Makes you wanna holla sometimes, doesn't it? :cool:

Some people just don't get it.

[DaemonSeid]

I thought this thread was supposed to be over on post 14 or 26?

PM_Mama, I don't think "they" (my, that is a loaded word) said anything about being owed anything. There might be a few fringe wackos who get publicity every now and then carrying on about 'reparations,' but to say that all blacks are in favor of that, I think would be overstating things. (but who is ever opposed to free money so long as they don't have to pay?)

No, slavery wasn't really over 150 years ago... heck... my father's stepfather's uncle still had what were essentially slaves well into the 1960's, still living on the plantation, still living in the same housing their forefathers occupied prior to the Civil War, working on the farm in exchange for company script only redeemable at the company store -- only a small violation of the FLSA there. The legacy of slavery is still well alive today. I really don't think that's disputable.

I read a story over the summer about that....how some people living in some sections of South and Mid West still had Black families working for them and in one case I read, had them inbreeding....disgusting.

[CrackerBarrel]

thus that is why you need to do your homework...slavery as it was known in Africa back in the olden days was nowhere near as brutal and dehumanizing as chattel slavery was in US.

In some cases, being a slave among some African tribes gave you a better lot in life than if you stayed free amongst your kinsmen.

And I state again, altho that period is over with, there is still the issue of some of the deeply seeded behavior that still exists among blacks and whites in our country.

And now you're arguing with me about a point I wasn't making either. I don't give a rats ass what slavery in Africa was like, it doesn't change the fact that it was other Africans who sold them onto the damn boats.



Some people just don't get it. And it makes you want to holler sometimes, doesn't it.

[Phrozen1ne]

You do realize that your very own ancestors owned slaves, correct?

Very few of the slaves were simply caught by white folks with net or something, most were enslaved by rival tribes and then sold to the white folks.

It may be your own family.


Yes I do and that is why I stated such. Please learn to read.

[Phrozen1ne]

And I state again, altho that period is over with, there is still the issue of some of the deeply seeded behavior that still exists among blacks and whites in our country.

Which is apparent in this thread.

[PhiGam]

Slavery has almost always existed. That cannot be disputed. But, to toss out that Africans owned slaves in an attempt to diminish the impact of American slavery is fallacious. West African slavery was not anything like American slavery. America took slavery, and the slave trade, to a level of barbarity that was unprecedented. You should do some research, because you're way off the mark on this.
African slavery was just as bad as American slavery in a lot of cases if you actually do the research, its just convenient to say that it wasn't barbaric.
There were black slave owners in America too.

[Phrozen1ne]

African slavery was just as bad as American slavery in a lot of cases if you actually do the research, its just convenient to say that it wasn't barbaric.
There were black slave owners in America too.

Again,.... we know.

[DaemonSeid]

African slavery was just as bad as American slavery in a lot of cases if you actually do the research, its just convenient to say that it wasn't barbaric.
There were black slave owners in America too.

I really wish some of you could understand how silly and simple some of you sound trying to debate this point...

"Well some black people owned slaves too..."

"But a small percent of white people owned slaves"

"We are sorry about making you all slaves...but dont sue us."

[PM_Mama00]

Whoa-
O.k. who the hell said someone owed them anything? I don't look for handouts. Since you want to take it there, how about SOME, not all in this country, like to sweep slavery under the rug like it is something that happened one day and ended the next. I would never compare the enslavement of African Americans to the Holocaust. One doesn't trump the other.

"them" = the other races and nationalities and religions. I never said ALL. If I meant ALL, I would have said ALL. And yes, there are some African Americans who do believe that "we" owe them something. I never said anyone specifically on this board. You would never compare it to the Holocaust, but there are people who would and have.

You are so wrong on so many levels for writing this... stuff.

Nobody HERE said anything about being owed anything, first of all. Secondly, just because SOME black Americans call for reparations, and other things, doesn't mean that we ALL do! We are not the doggone Borg! We do not share a collective conscious and we do not all do ANYTHING alike. :mad:

And, for the record, YES these other ethnic groups DO speak up loudly when they feel they are being disrespected. A prime example is I never see/hear/read anyone saying the same thing about the Anti-Defamation League, or other Jewish groups, when they get their britches in a knot about something.

Freudian slips really aren't slips.

What Freudian slip?

Huh? The article, that was in this month's Marie Claire, was actually about how the relationship couldn't last because of the tension.


I was just happy that someone brought up other events where people were brutalized (I think I just made that word up) because of what they are. Some (note SOME)* people sweep those events under the rug.

I don't think anyone (ok maybe the KKK and whitepower jackasses) has or will ever forget that slavery existed.

*I said some.

[Phrozen1ne]

I really wish some of you could understand how silly and simple some of you sound trying to debate this point...

"Well some black people owned slaves too..."

"But a small percent of white people owned slaves"

"We are sorry about making you all slaves...but dont sue us."


Apparently we all want a big fat reparation check too! Ignorance is catching.

[PM_Mama00]

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=22287&highlight=acres+mule

[DaemonSeid]

Apparently we all want a big fat reparation check too! Ignorance is catching.

yeah...I want my 40 acres and mule....heh

http://www.africawithin.com/karenga/ethics.htm

[XSK_Diamond]

*sigh* You're doing exactly what I said. Thanks for making my point.

The few instances you could name does not negate that the NORM of West African slavery (and we are only talking about W. African slavery) was nothing like the NORM of American chattel slavery. As a matter of fact, West Indian slavery was much more brutal than American chattel slavery and some of the barbarism that U.S. slavery got came from there. But, that still does not negate that the norm of W. African slavery was nothing like the norm of American slavery. It was a totally different system, altogether, actually.

And, thanks for not being too condescending to me :rolleyes:... but I have done the research, thanks. Have you done thorough research and not just read the things that would support the position you already held? :cool:

Yes, there were a FEW black slave owners in America, too. There have always been blacks that didn't identify with other blacks. So what?


African slavery was just as bad as American slavery in a lot of cases if you actually do the research, its just convenient to say that it wasn't barbaric.
There were black slave owners in America too.

[DaemonSeid]

*sigh* You're doing exactly what I said. Thanks for making my point.

The few instances you could name does not negate that the NORM of West African slavery (and we are only talking about W. African slavery) was nothing like the NORM of American chattel slavery. As a matter of fact, West Indian slavery was much more brutal than American chattel slavery and some of the barbarism that U.S. slavery got came from there. But, that still does not negate that the norm of W. African slavery was nothing like the norm of American slavery. It was a totally different system, altogether, actually.

And, thanks for not being too condescending to me :rolleyes:... but I have done the research, thanks. Have you done thorough research and not just read the things that would support the position you already held? :cool:

Yes, there were a FEW black slave owners in America, too. There have always been blacks that didn't identify with other blacks. So what?

I guess we don't know better....

[Phrozen1ne]

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=22287&highlight=acres+mule


Ignorance is catching.:rolleyes::D

[XSK_Diamond]

Of course we don't. :cool:

We're supposed to know more about other people's history than our own. It's funny. I don't go around telling white people how to be white. More specifically, I would never presume to tell an ethic white person what they don't know about their own history. Now, doesn't that just sound crazy? :confused:

I guess we don't know better....

[CrackerBarrel]

No one is trying to tell you a goddamn thing about your history. No one was arguing anything even remotely related to you two moron's point until you decided to "rebut" every argument with it.

Talking about black africans selling to slave ships =/= saying slavery was ok because africans had slaves too. But it is a wonderful strawman argument if you can't win on a topical point. That being said, at least in my understanding of it, that isn't where this argument came from either.

I think when people in this thread said that Obama's ancestors probably owned slaves too, they were referring to the fact that ALL OF HIS FAMILY IN AMERICA IS/WAS WHITE. But of course that isn't as easy to argue against, so proceed with your foolish misplaced outrage.

[preciousjeni]

GC didn't send me any thread updates so I didn't even see this entire discussion. I don't believe the issue that the folks in the articles had was that there was slave-ownership, but rather that John McCain hasn't acknowledged these members of his extended family.

I think it would be very interesting for McCain to reach out to these relatives. Perhaps he could change their minds about him and his policies. Where better to start than with your own family?

[preciousjeni]

I think when people in this thread said that Obama's ancestors probably owned slaves too, they were referring to the fact that ALL OF HIS FAMILY IN AMERICA IS/WAS WHITE.

Was it just a rumor or was it ever confirmed that Obama's mother's family in fact owned slaves?

[DaemonSeid]

No one is trying to tell you a goddamn thing about your history. No one was arguing anything even remotely related to you two moron's point until you decided to "rebut" every argument with it.

Talking about black africans selling to slave ships =/= saying slavery was ok because africans had slaves too. But it is a wonderful strawman argument if you can't win on a topical point. That being said, at least in my understanding of it, that isn't where this argument came from either.

I think when people in this thread said that Obama's ancestors probably owned slaves too, they were referring to the fact that ALL OF HIS FAMILY IN AMERICA IS/WAS WHITE. But of course that isn't as easy to argue against, so proceed with your foolish misplaced outrage.

guys...we are 'foolish' and 'morons'...we are so done here....heh

Gee...thank you for setting us straight Mistah Cracker.

[Phrozen1ne]

No one is trying to tell you a goddamn thing about your history. No one was arguing anything even remotely related to you two moron's point until you decided to "rebut" every argument with it.

Talking about black africans selling to slave ships =/= saying slavery was ok because africans had slaves too. But it is a wonderful strawman argument if you can't win on a topical point. That being said, at least in my understanding of it, that isn't where this argument came from either.

I think when people in this thread said that Obama's ancestors probably owned slaves too, they were referring to the fact that ALL OF HIS FAMILY IN AMERICA IS/WAS WHITE. But of course that isn't as easy to argue against, so proceed with your foolish misplaced outrage.

No one is trying to win an argument and you're the only moron here. Comment on what you know about from now on. Thanks.

[PrettyInPink777]

guys...we are 'foolish' and 'morons'...we are so done here....heh

Gee...thank you for setting us straight Mistah Cracker.


Funny -- I was thinking a very similar phrase :rolleyes:

This thrust of this thread shows the lack of progress that has been made -- sad.

[MysticCat]

Some people just don't get it.Some of us get it DS -- it's just that we weren't all talking about the same thing.

This thrust of this thread shows the lack of progress that has been made -- sad.I'm not so sure it's completely the lack of progress (although thst may be part of it) as much as lack of clear communication. I guess I'm the one who started this tangent by responding to a specific question (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?p=1734305). I wasn't trying to excuse anything or minimize anything, just answering a specific question. Since then, it's obvious to me that people are talking past each other. People are talking about different things but arguing as though they're talking about the same things.

The progress can't happen without the communication.

[Senusret I]

Why the hell didn't you people tell me we were having a race war????

I've been waiting for this all year!

[agzg]

Why the hell didn't you people tell me we were having a race war????

I've been waiting for this all year!

LOL! I thought of you a couple pages ago but I've been lurking on this thread, so I didn't call you over.

[PrettyInPink777]

Some of us get it DS -- it's just that we weren't all talking about the same thing.

I'm not so sure it's completely the lack of progress (although thst may be part of it) as much as lack of clear communication. I guess I'm the one who started this tangent by responding to a specific question (http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?p=1734305). I wasn't trying to excuse anything or minimize anything, just answering a specific question. Since then, it's obvious to me that people are talking past each other. People are talking about different things but arguing as though they're talking about the same things.

The progress can't happen without the communication.

I appreciate your perspective, but I stand behind my original assertion. The lack of progress is real -- I live it every day -- and much of this dialogue demonstrates it. That being said, some get it :rolleyes:

[nittanyalum]

I was just checking fivethirtyeight.com and read this article after having just caught up on the posts here. I felt like I had to come back and link it because of the mentions about racial comments coming up in the normal course of the campaign volunteers' days. The posts mentioning the "progress" we've made ran through my head: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/on-road-big-stone-gap-virginia.html

[CrackerBarrel]

guys...we are 'foolish' and 'morons'...we are so done here....heh

Gee...thank you for setting us straight Mistah Cracker.

No, I said your misplaced outrage is foolish. And I'm pretty sure I've called you a moron on here a number of times, so I apologize for letting myself get sucked into arguing with your inane, off-topic responses again.

Anyways, I still think you two are arguing a point no one is making, but if it makes you feel like a little Jesse Jackson standing up for the black folks, have at it.

And Phrozen, I totally forgot, you're only allowed to "know" things directly related to your own race. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

[XSK_Diamond]

Why are you getting upset to the point of cursing and name calling? We obviously don't (and will never) agree on this topic, but that's no reason to lose your temper like you did. All you succeeded in doing is giving me my first HEARTY laugh of the day. Thank you. I mean that from the bottom of my facetious little heart. :D

Whatever point you were trying to make, my ability to hear it and take you seriously, was lost. I do not agree with you, and I will never agree with you on this topic. Big deal. It's not like we actually matter to each other, anyway (other than if you were drowning I'd try my best to rescue you type of thing - on my part, anyway). :rolleyes:

At any rate, we need to stop posting to each other about this topic. It's obvious neither of us are going to budge, and to continue will only waste time and energy, and I don't like wasting my time or energy. So, enjoy your weekend.

No one is trying to tell you a goddamn thing about your history. No one was arguing anything even remotely related to you two moron's point until you decided to "rebut" every argument with it.

Talking about black africans selling to slave ships =/= saying slavery was ok because africans had slaves too. But it is a wonderful strawman argument if you can't win on a topical point. That being said, at least in my understanding of it, that isn't where this argument came from either.

I think when people in this thread said that Obama's ancestors probably owned slaves too, they were referring to the fact that ALL OF HIS FAMILY IN AMERICA IS/WAS WHITE. But of course that isn't as easy to argue against, so proceed with your foolish misplaced outrage.

[DaemonSeid]

No, I said your misplaced outrage is foolish. And I'm pretty sure I've called you a moron on here a number of times, so I apologize for letting myself get sucked into arguing with your inane, off-topic responses again.

Anyways, I still think you two are arguing a point no one is making, but if it makes you feel like a little Jesse Jackson standing up for the black folks, have at it.

And Phrozen, I totally forgot, you're only allowed to "know" things directly related to your own race. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

As much as I am gonna hate to say this...I am gonna do it anyways....

I really, truly hate it when some whites refer back to Jesse Jackson as if he is The Spokesperson for All of Black America....name dropping him like that is going to shut us up....

Clue: Jesse Jackson does NOT speak for ALL of us...and I hate it even more because some whites REALLY have no frame of reference to find out of the many of the 1000's of OTHER Blacks who are just as capable and in MANY ways more legitimate than Jesse....please do not allow such foolishness come up out of mouth and God forbid...don't do that if you are face to face in a debate with us...it simply destroys your credibility....just like losing your temper did.

[XSK_Diamond]

Now, you know you're wasting your time.

As much as I am gonna hate to say this...I am gonna do it anyways....

I really, truly hate it when some whites refer back to Jesse Jackson as if he is The Spokesperson for All of Black America....name dropping him like that is going to shut us up....

Clue: Jesse Jackson does NOT speak for ALL of us...and I hate it even more because some whites REALLY have no frame of reference to find out of the many of the 1000's of OTHER Blacks who are just as capable and in MANY ways more legitimate than Jesse....please do not allow such foolishness come up out of mouth and God forbid...don't do that if you are face to face in a debate with us...it simply destroys your credibility....just like losing your temper did.

[DaemonSeid]

Now, you know you're wasting your time.

hey...I just had to get it out there.....any ol' ways back to Morgan State Football!!

[CrackerBarrel]

hey...I just had to get it out there.....any ol' ways back to Morgan State Football!!

Screw schools I've never heard of, haha. Florida whooped ass, Georgia looks great, I can't wait till next week (and I'm wasted, haha). And on top of that Texas looks real good too.

And hint hint, I make obnoxious points like comparing you to JJ when I'm trying to be as obnoxious as you are by implying that I'm racist for pointing out that you're "answering" a point no one is making. Most whites realize that very few people who don't belong to Rainbow/Push listen to ol' Jesse or Al either.

Anyways, great college football, great drinks, who cares about this, lets cheer up and get even more drunk!

[Phrozen1ne]

As much as I am gonna hate to say this...I am gonna do it anyways....

I really, truly hate it when some whites refer back to Jesse Jackson as if he is The Spokesperson for All of Black America....name dropping him like that is going to shut us up....

Clue: Jesse Jackson does NOT speak for ALL of us...and I hate it even more because some whites REALLY have no frame of reference to find out of the many of the 1000's of OTHER Blacks who are just as capable and in MANY ways more legitimate than Jesse....please do not allow such foolishness come up out of mouth and God forbid...don't do that if you are face to face in a debate with us...it simply destroys your credibility....just like losing your temper did.

It needed to be said. Thank you.

[DaemonSeid]

And hint hint, I make obnoxious points like comparing you to JJ when I'm trying to be as obnoxious as you are by implying that I'm racist for pointing out that you're "answering" a point no one is making. Most whites realize that very few people who don't belong to Rainbow/Push listen to ol' Jesse or Al either.



Translation: I don't know what I am talking about and don't give shyte but I am going to show my entire @ss with my temper for a point that I can't win on. But I do agree that most whites don't listen nor can reference anyone besides Al or Jesse even if I happen to be lumped in to the same category

[PM_Mama00]

Was it just a rumor or was it ever confirmed that Obama's mother's family in fact owned slaves?

What does it matter if these ancestors are probably dead anyways? Seriously? I may have had family in the mafia way way back. Does that affect me today? No. So why does it matter if McCain acknowledges or if it was confirmed that Obama's mother's family owned slaves?

[DaemonSeid]

What does it matter if these ancestors are probably dead anyways? Seriously? I may have had family in the mafia way way back. Does that affect me today? No. So why does it matter if McCain acknowledges or if it was confirmed that Obama's mother's family owned slaves?

Exactly...and again...even if they did...no big whup.

[MysticCat]

I appreciate your perspective, but I stand behind my original assertion. The lack of progress is real -- I live it every day -- and much of this dialogue demonstrates it. That being said, some get it :rolleyes:Thanks. And, as someone who does not live it everyday, I appreciate your perspective.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00
What does it matter if these ancestors are probably dead anyways? Seriously? I may have had family in the mafia way way back. Does that affect me today? No. So why does it matter if McCain acknowledges or if it was confirmed that Obama's mother's family owned slaves?

Sen. McCain's silence on this and his lack of participation in the McCain family reunion, if correct, is quizzical, since his brother and many of his cousins have joined in the essentially reconciliatory event. The question is this:why would Sen. McCain want to distance himself from this positive event? What political calculus is behind this? Would he offend a part of his "base"--a base that would look negatively on Black/ White reconciliation and the acknowledgement of the sordid history of our nation? This is not about what happened in the the past but about what he is doing now!

[preciousjeni]

So why does it matter if...it was confirmed that Obama's mother's family owned slaves?
I don't know. Ask CrackerBarrel.

[preciousjeni]

Sen. McCain's silence on this and his lack of participation in the McCain family reunion, if correct, is quizzical, since his brother and many of his cousins have joined in the essentially reconciliatory event. The question is this:why would Sen. McCain want to distance himself from this positive event? What political calculus is behind this? Would he offend a part of his "base"--a base that would look negatively on Black/ White reconciliation and the acknowledgement of the sordid history of our nation? This is not about what the past but about what he is doing now!

I get why...certain people in this country...believe that slavery is a matter of history. It's difficult to understand the issue when one has no concept of reality. Slavery was (and is) a symptom of a systemic oppressing and denigrating social structure that continues today. Slavery in and of itself is not the core problem.

[KSig RC]

Slavery was (and is) a symptom of a systemic oppressing and denigrating social structure that continues today.

What were some of the other symptoms circa 1665?

I truly believe this is one area where causation and correlation are basically completely irrelevant, with the one caveat that the term "slavery" causes some measure of irrationality in discussion, clouding the core issue.

In that way, I can see the desire to focus on systemic oppression, but there's really no reason to do anything to minimize the effects of slavery, since many of the tangible bases of oppression (wealth distribution; access to education; role in higher-order decision making) can basically be tied directly to slavery and its after-effects.

I guess, in short: I can see what you're trying to do, but I don't think it's the right way to direct the conversation if you're truly trying to "get through" to people who don't understand.

[preciousjeni]

What were some of the other symptoms circa 1665?

The demonization of Native Americans. These issues were borrowed from Europe and spread with the "civilization" of the planet by whites. The racialization of Jews rose in the late 1500s due to European colonization. White supremacy is concomitant with the rise of the European nation-state. That ideology is a justification for colonialism and dehumanization. Religion played a large part as well.

ETA: You and I probably differ on our interpretation of historical events. My personal experiences impact the way I view history as, I'm sure, yours do as well. This post might be the beginning of a nasty GC argument, so I'm going to tread carefully.

[DaemonSeid]

**sitting back watching**

Somebody pass the popcorn

[preciousjeni]

**sitting back watching**

Somebody pass the popcorn

You're a trouble maker. :D

[DaemonSeid]

You're a trouble maker. :D

So I have been told...but hey....I was trying to leave this line of convo alone....the most I can do now is sit back and watch!

heh!

:)

[XSK_Diamond]

Uh Oh. I don't have a good feeling about this. I hope I'm wrong.

[XSK_Diamond]

Here's the popcorn.

Pass the hot wings and celery.

**sitting back watching**

Somebody pass the popcorn